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Dr. Drew
Trump Spars with Opponents in Debate Lead-up; Josh Duggar Scandal Revisited; Latest in Bill Cosby Sexual Assault Case. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired December 14, 2015 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: Donald Trump opponents are slamming him ahead of tomorrow`s debate and he is throwing it right back. His comments about
Muslims seemed to have helped a rise in his polls
Take a look at this
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And we have to stop the Muslims until we find out what`s going on. Does that make sense, by the way? Can we
find that?
I have many friends that are Muslims and I will tell you, they are so happy that I did this, because they know they have a problem. There is a problem.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Donald trump could be a recruitment poster for ISIL, because he is fanning the flames of hate.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t want him here
Who knows what they`re going to bring in this country. They`re going to bomb us, ISIS or what? They need to go.
TRUMP: I always say they`re not coming out of Sweden that want to kill us.
We can`t worry about being politically correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 58 percent reject this call. Reject this proposal to ban Muslims from entering the U.S.
TRUMP: I don`t think the polls are accurate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining me, Sam Sorbo, she is host of Sam Sorbo Radio show, also the author of "The Answer: Proof of God in Heaven." Areva Martin attorney
and legal analyst, Darren Kavinoky host of host of Deadly Sins on Discovery I.D., Lisa Bloom, civil rights lawyer at the Bloom Firm and legal analyst
for avvo.com, finally Ernie White, civil rights activist and political analyst.
Sam I`m going to go to you. We have -- I don`t know where you stand on this, but I wonder if you were offended or affected or, perhaps, supportive
of what Mr. Trump said about Muslims and immigration?
SAM SORBO, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: So, first off, I`m not a Trump fan, but I really appreciate the voice that he brings to this.
I mean when he came out against immigration, against illegal immigration, it brought out an enormous conversation that nobody was talking about in
the country.
So I appreciate his voice. I think that his comment -- I have to say that I`ve been advocating to shutdown immigration.
PINSKY: Of all types?
SORBO: Yeah, pause.
PINSKY: The pause of immigration.
SORBO: And to do a Muslim only, you know, shutdown is absurd to me. I don`t know how you`re going to do that.
PINSKY: That only I can do that. But Areva, I think the point is that by saying that you`re advocating a kind of thinking that is problematic.
AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY, LEGAL ANALYST: Yeah, and I think we should correct the record, everyone keep saying that Donald Trump is the first one to
bring forth this national conversation on immigration and that`s absolutely not true.
President Barack Obama has been working on immigration.
PINSKY: But Areva, may I interrupt you. He may have tried to bring it up but I wasn`t on my conversation. It wasn`t part of my show every night the
way it is now.
MARTIN: Because it`s not honest to say that Trump is the only elected official or wanted to be elected official that`s been talking about
immigration.
You know, President Obama has been talking about immigration. He`s been talking about creating a pathway for immigrants in this country to become
legal and for us to have sensible immigration policies. And that`s just accurate.
DARREN KAVINOKY, ATTORNEY, LEGAL ANALYST: But the reason that Trump says the credit forward is because he has the biggest platform.
He is the one that did it the loudest, that`s done it the most and that`s why people have the perception that he`s leading the conversation, even
though a lot of this reminds me of what Wayne Dyer used to say that that fighting for peace makes as much sense or as fornicating for virginity.
And it seems that what a lot of what we hear, I don`t.
PINSKY: Wayne Dyer and Donald Trump in the same sentence?
(CROSSTALK)
KAVINOKY: But that`s a lot of what comes out of his mouth, that seems to be as disconnected and misaligned as that, like this notion that somehow with
these exclusionary policies against Muslims that somehow that`s going to help the problem.
PINSKY: Let me do something. I want to show you -- this is really interested me, because I meet the press Chuck Todd gave us some or gave the
viewers there some statistics about Trumps supporters and what you listen carefully the picture he paints there and then I want to try to interpret
it so take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHUCK TODD, POLITICAL DIRECTOR FOR NBC: 64 percent of his supporters didn`t attend college, sort of the polar opposite of the establishment blank.
Then you`ve got this fact 61 percent of his supporters do not attend church weekly, again opposite of the evangelical wing.
There`s one more distinguishing characteristic worth pointing out. This is sort of by blue collar vote again that hasn`t been a force in Republican
primary before.
54 percent of Trump supporters earn less than $75,000 a year.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right, so Lisa, when you walk away from those steps, what do you think about the Trump supporters?
LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY: You know, I don`t know who they are, I don`t personally know.
PINSKY: What`s the picture he`s painting?
PINSKY: I do, I mean I talked a lot of them.
MARTIN: I think that`s your picture.
BLOOM: Listen. It`s not just Trump is talking the loudest or that he had the biggest platform, let`s be very clear. He is the most outrageous
inflammatory racist candidate that we have seen probably since the days of Joe McCarthy.
The Muslim family that live next door to me, the Muslim employees who I have in my law firm, the Muslim children who I know are now under threat in
America, because hate crimes against that Muslims are now up because of Trump`s inflammatory rhetoric.
This is unacceptable. This is un-American. I don`t know who his supporters are, but they apparently don`t believe in the constitution and I don`t
believe in the values that I thought we all shared.
PINSKY: OK, so the Trump supporters don`t believe in the constitution. That`s what Lisa is saying.
And you say you started chuckling at who the Trump supporters were? What`s the picture?
MARTIN: Well the pictures that we`re getting from these statistics and what we see when we look at these rallies that he`s playing to uneducated white
middle class, mostly men who feel like somehow they`ve been pushed out of the country or that because we have an African-American president or
because we -- the country is becoming too brown for them. They want to make America great again.
Let me just say this. And when he says make America great again, where was America great? Was America great when minorities didn`t have rights? Was
America great when women didn`t have rights? When was this great time in America`s history was that Trump wants to take us back to? Because that`s I
think that`s a code word for take us back to time when minorities and women didn`t have the rights and we have now that we fought so hard for?
BLOOM: And Areva, in fact he has taken us back in the supportive states at the time when we interned Japanese-Americans during World War II.
They use that as an example of a great time in America.
PINSKY: All right, I want to get back to the statistics, so Ernie I`m going to bring you into this a little bit too, so let`s go down to Trump
supporters statistics. 64 percent did not attend college, OK.
What percentage of Americans did not attend college? What percent of all Americans did not attend college?
KAVINOKY: Any guess on that?
INSKY: What`s the percentage of all Americans? 64 percent did not attend as Trump Supporter, what`s the percentage of all Americans?
SORBO: I don`t know.
ERNIE WHITE, CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: 64 percent.
PINSKY: 62 percent. So the average American does not go to college, everybody. Number two.
SORBO: And the average American supports Trump.
PINSKY: Number two, what percentage of the Americans, all Americans, do not attend church weekly? Trump supporters at 60 percent, what percentage of
Americans?
WHITE: 58 percent.
KAVINOKY: Yeah, I`m going to go aligned with this.
PINSKY: About 61 percent of Trump supporters, 60 percent of Americans do not attend.
So is he hitting exactly square in the average American?
The only place he`s off the train, where he goes completely outside, 54 percent of his supporters earn less than $75,000 a year.
What percentage of Americans gain less than.
Yeah, 85 percent of Americans, so the dumb, poor, people you`re talking about is us, it`s all of us. It fits the profile the average American.
(CROSSTALK)
KAVINOKY: Exactly. He struck a nerve where people want to have these conversations and.
PINSKY: How can we the press get up there and say that within good conscience and paint this picture of a dumb, white, poor person, when it`s
the average American we`re painting the picture of?
White, Black, everybody. Yeah, go ahead Ernie go.
WHITE: I`m sitting here, and I`m a Trump supporter and I`m not dumb and I`m not white, why don`t we.
(CROSSTALK)
WHITE: Why is it that -- I want to know this why is it that black people have to be in the Democrat Party? Why can`t we support anybody we want to?
Why can`t we get behind a normal guy like Donald Trump who simply said this, all I want to do is protect you right now and we don`t know who`s
coming across that border from Syria.
BLOOM: But that`s not all he said.
WHITE: And he said, and I want to make sure that what -- if we have immigration, not illegal immigration.
MARTIN: You know, all these Trump supporters do? Trump supporters are good at reinterpreting what Trump says.
WHITE: When will black people get off the Democrat plantation and start thinking for themselves?
KAVINOKY: . well intentioned but poorly executed.
WHITE: I`m tired of people telling us what we have to think. I`m thinking for myself. And right now I`m voting for Trump at this moment because he`s
speaking to America.
MARTIN: And the Democratic Party says good-bye to you, Ernie? Have a great life?
We hope you have a great time with Mr. Trump. Because when he continues to make those kind of racist comments, he`s
talking about you, your family.
WHITE: He has not a one racist comment about that.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: Laziness is a trait in blacks. Look it up. I tweeted it and I`ve said that.
PINSKY: All right, and let`s -- as the control room would look that up, I`d be very interested in pulling up those comments, because that is not OK. By
the way ensure I`m a polemicist. I am trying to make argument here. I`m not supporting anybody yet, but I do have a problem when the press comes out
and paints the picture and the picture is of the average American and they`re disparaging the average American. And I have a problem with that.
That`s the why I have a problem with this whole story. But we`ll keep this conversation going.
Coming up, Duggar sisters reveal what they think about their brother Josh. But first we keep this conversation going and we`re back after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILL FERRELL, SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE: And then you`ve got this knuckle head. With the hair and the hundred-foot wall.
Bring that picture back.
I`ll tell you something whenever I get in a bad mood, I Just picture his big fat orange ooch oompa-loompa face I just piss my pants.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was Will Ferrell on Saturday Night Live, poking fun at Donald Trump.
But Mr. Trump may have the last laugh. He is now poling at 41 percent.
I`m back with Sam, Areva, Darren, Lisa and Ernie.
And then Mr. Trump recently tweeted the following "As a presidential candidate. I have instructed my long-time doctor to issue, within two weeks
a full medical report, it will show perfection."
And indeed..
KAVINOKY: Not just good health.
PINSKY: Not just good -- it reads in part. Let me show you, if you guys could please -- there we go.
Actually, his blood pressure, 110/65, laboratory test results were astonishingly excellent. Over the pasty 12 months he has lost at least 15
pounds. He has no history of ever using alcohol or tobacco products.
If elected, Mr. Trump, I can state unequivocally will be the healthiest individual ever elected to the presidency.
He`s huge and not only is he in good health, he`s in extraordinary. And we have to invent a word Superfragilistic -- give me a good word.
MARTIN: He is consistent.
BLOOM: Has he examined all of the other presidents to run history by the way before making that fact.
MARTIN: That would be facts and data, which he doesn`t deal with.
PINSKY: The physician reporting that I -- Teddy Roosevelt, I think, was in pretty good health and he withstood that river of doubt and everything, he
did pretty good. But again it`s consist to me, as a clinician, to me it summarizes everything that Mr. Trump does, which everything is stupendous
and huge not just healthy, but stupendously healthy.
MARTIN: Did Doctors write reports using those kinds of adjectives?
BLOOM: No.
PINSKY: Not typically.
MARTIN: Thank you. I`ll rest my case.
KAVINOKY: No it`s classic Trump. It`s not enough that he`s in excellent health, that that he`s the healthiest individual to have ever were.
But I did notice that they mentioned specifically alcohol and tobacco.
PINSKY: Which is true.
KAVINOKY: But since it`s silent as to methamphetamine, can I go out there?
PINSKY: No, no, no, where can you use it there. And I know you`re always angling for that with me, but no he had a brother died of addiction and is
phobic of substances as a result. Actually, actively and all of his.
KAVINOKY: And I feel bad.
PINSKY: He passed that all down stream these kids and these kids are, you know, are actively not using, in which sort of a phobia almost and putting
something in their system.
KAVINOKY: Which is the healthiest thing I`ve heard sad about Trump and the family..
PINSKY: Well, he`s not just phobic. He`s stupendously phobic, it`s using phobic about methamphetamine or whatever drugs.
Now last month Mr. Trump did admit though that he doesn`t have a healthy diet.
Take a look at this from Bloomberg.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I love steak, and hamburger, and pasta, and french fries, all the things we shouldn`t be eating is what I love.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You need to do some more exercise.
TRUMP: I know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re like an normal eater like three meals a day?
TRUMP: Pretty much. Pretty much I tried.
A lot of times I can`t because I`m.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What`s this food you like that, you know, you shouldn`t eat but just can`t resist?
TRUMP: Bacon, eggs, steak.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How many pieces of bacon would you eat normally in one sitting?
TRUMP: Don`t ask.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don`t ask.
TRUMP: Too many.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That`s why he has a huge diet.
And secondly, I would like it if he would try to contribute, Lisa, to may be the global warming by cutting down some of that meat ingestion.
BLOOM: Here, here Dr. Drew, because I love you anymore? You are now speaking my language as a vegan, as somebody who cares about climate change
absolutely. But you know, if you`re running for president you got to be little America, you guys have my bacon and burgers. He can`t eat a lot of
them if he`s that healthy
PINSKY: Exactly. He`s -- I brought the report from a doctor, he`s on a cholesterol med, he`s on a statin like myself, so he`s maybe don`t look too
much with a fatty food intake.
But you Areva and you and Ernie were fighting during the commercial break what where you guys fighting about?
I just told you to stop. I didn`t hear what you`re fighting about
MARTIN: Ernie has this -- he made this allegation that African-Americans can`t think on their own.
PINSKY: Hold on, you`re already confusing.
MARTIN: Automatically.
PINSKY: Hey, wait, stop I thought I had to say Black-Americans I`m already confused I learned from my audience that say Black -- an African-American
are people that come from Africa.
MARTIN: Everyone can feel and choose the language they wish to describe themselves. I like to describe myself as an African-American.
So Ernie says me, my family and other African-Americans that I know, we don`t have a brain and we can`t decide for ourselves, which party to belong
to and we automatically belong to the Democratic Party.
That was the debate and which I said to Ernie I was insulted by that, I`m offended by that. I have a brain, my friends have brains and we can select
then we look at Donald Trump and we reject him not because we are automatically committed to the Democratic Party but because we are afraid
of his policies and his rhetoric.
PINSKY: And to be fair and to follow up, there is there is a sort of rolling back of a philosophy a little bit here.
We opened up our conversation by talking about, you know, when America was great and when America was great some, wasn`t so great for everybody and
then may be that`s what they`re afraid of.
WHITE: Yeah, and I never said that you didn`t have a brain. And I didn`t say your family didn`t have a brain.
What I`m saying is the Democratic establishment simply expects black people to vote a certain way. So that don`t even give us any play in our
neighborhoods, they don`t care.
They expect 95 percent of us to simply vote democrat, which means we are not investigating all candidates, we are simply handing our vote off to a
party that`s not handing anything back to us.
PINSKY: Sam, I want to get you in here. You`re new to this arena.
So where do you ring and on all this that we`re fighting about today?
SORBO: Well, you know, you brought this up, you said that you, you had a brain, that you wanted to think for yourself and you didn`t wanted just to
be assumed that you were a democrat and she took that personally and this is indicative. This is the political problem that we have in the United
States now.
These people take offense when there`s no offense intended. He didn`t want people to assume that he was a democrat simply because of the color of his
skin.
PINSKY: Yeah, hold on. I`ll let you Areva, I`ll let you talk but.
(OFF-MIC)
PINSKY: There`s this thing called microaggression.
Ernie is guilty of microaggression and Areva is shaking her head vigorously, I thought -- I think we were more of a microaggression to be
fair.
SORBO: So by asserting himself, that is perceived as aggression?
PINSKY: Yes, Areva?
MARTIN: Sam you`re absolutely incorrect about what just happened. Ernie did not -- I didn`t get personally offended because Ernie says that I can`t
make my own choices. He made a gross generalization about all African- Americans automatically belonging to the Democratic Party.
So he made a gross statement about all African-Americans and I have every right to defend African-Americans because I work very closely with the
Democratic Party. And contrary to what you`re saying, they just don`t assume they`re going to get our vote. They come and they work for our vote.
PINSKY: All right, here is the idea, Darren I got to wrap it up and I will just say that for me the fact that Mr. Trump seems to be delivering a
message that the average American is responding to, please do not disparage the average American, the press out there, if people meet the press, what
Todd -- Mr. Todd, is that his name?
SORBO: Todd.
PINSKY: Chuck Todd, right. I mean that`s very deeply offensive to me. And if you need to make a point about Trump and his supporters, that`s you
realize that it seems that he is saying something or resonating with the average American in a profound way. Let`s try to understand that and what
it is he has triggered here and we don`t agree with it, let`s really understand why people are feeling the way they do and they respond so
vigorously to Trumps politics talk to his some of the statements that are extreme. They are extreme and they are inflammatory, but they are the way
people are feeling.
So we`re always going to be talking about Trump, at the same time for awhile.
Next, the Duggar sisters, as we keep looking at them too because it seems as though, they might be turning against their brother, they will tell us
after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSH DUGGAR: As we know, marriage is between a man and a woman. And I`m honored to have been married to my wife for over five years.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Josh Duggar pays reports he molested girls as a teenager, including his sisters and used the adultery website, Ashley
Madison.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michelle and Jim bob admit their son molested four of his siblings, blaming though everyone but the molester.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I do want to speak up in his defense against people who are calling him a child molester or pedophile.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And now this, two active accounts connected to Josh Duggar on the website ashleymadison.com.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know that every one of us have done things wrong. We`re -- that`s why Jesus came.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Jessa and Jill Duggar initially had come to the defense of their brother, Josh. He, of course had sexually abused them when they were teen,
when he was a teenager, they were even younger.
But in interviews from this new show the TLC series Jill and Jessa counting on, Jill says, "Other revelations," so called about his secret sex life
perhaps changed her mind. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
Jill Duggar: Knowing now, what Joshua was hiding, I feel like, you know, it wasn`t right for him to let us speak our words without having the full
knowledge of what he was hiding.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I`m back with Sam, Areva, Darren, Lisa and joining us David Swanson, a clinical psychologist.
All right, David, no fooling. His victims shouldn`t have been forced to speak on his behalf, on behalf of the perpetrator. But watching that tape
even more so, that girl seems disassociated, disconnected, can almost in a confusional state as part of not being able to deal with the overwhelming
emotions. They`re putting her on camera again about this.
And it`s interesting to me that she can condemn her brother for what he did to his wife but still can`t recognize what he did to her.
DAVID SWANSON, PSY.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Yeah, well having to accept something like this, you know, makes you have to accept that something
happened to you. And that`s very hard for a lot of people.
In addition to that, when you start to think that this was a family member who you love and adore and why would they do something like this to me,
that`s a lot to accept for someone. So a lot of people like to deny it, disassociate from it and move on with life and they`d rather forget about
it. And I think this latest revelation made her bring up all of stuff and feeling she had about her earlier childhood.
PINSKY: Right and to be fair that`s a normal way to deal with trauma, which is to well it off and forget about it. But it stays there like a boil and
it continues to create trouble.
KAVINOKY: But how many times have we seen in various contexts that it`s not the crime, it`s the cover-up. And what she seems to be most offended here
is not the idea that she was victimized in any sense. But that she just didn`t have a full and complete understanding of the real fact.
PINSKY: But that`s an attorney thing you`re responding. But it really.
KAVINOKY: Wait, should I get on the couch now?
PINSKY: But here is -- that she -- David, I would say was that she can have emotions about him hurting someone else but not about hurting her.
SORBO: But my understanding is that she didn`t actually experience it, that they had to tell her after the fact that he had done that to her.
PINSKY: A big experience of it in some way.
SWANSON: You have a good point, though because what you really going to think about is sometimes people bury the stuff inside and it only takes a
trigger for it to come up. So it could be a relationship that they`re in, it could be an event. But in this case new revelations come up. And once
again it`s a betrayal. He led me out there. I, you know, spoke on his behalf, I spoke highly of him. And yet he was still, you know, doing stuff
behind my back.
KAVINOKY: I want to just jot down that this is the day I made a good point.
PINSKY: Well done, Darren. Well done.
BLOOM: And I think for women, because, you know, I represent a lot of child sexual abuse survivors. We tend to not speak up for ourselves. But when
someone else is in danger, when someone else is betrayed then we get outraged, you know.
And what about the hypocrisy by the way of Josh Duggar opposing gay marriage, apparently, he believes marriage should just between a man, a
woman and whoever he meets on Ashley Madison.
PINSKY: Yes, yes, yes. Lisa, yes, yes, yes on everything you just said.
MARTIN: Yeah, I think what disturbed me about this, is this women seemed so program. And I felt bad that they had to go and talk about something that`s
so personal and so painful in a way that supposed to entertain as a television show.
KAVINOKY: Is that they have too, or they`re on that television.
MARTIN: They`re making a choice, obviously. But it`s still to entertain us. And it`s not entertaining. It`s their pain. And it`s really bothered me as
a woman, as a mother it really bothered me.
SORBO: I`ll tell you as a home schooler, I would like to say that they do not represent the homeschooling community very well.
PINSKY: Right.
SORBO: . at all.
PINSKY: That`s a real -- that was a special case. Let`s face it.
PINSKY: Now, we also heard from 23-year-old Jessa Duggar. Take a look at this one.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JESSA DUGGAR, TELEVISION PERSONALITY: I mean it was one thing months before when we looked back on the situation. It happened when he was a teenager
and saying that was so long ago. But here`s something like present day, like today. This is the issue that`s happened right now. In the other
situation, we had already brought closure to that. That was something of the past. But, yeah, for sure, it was really difficult to come to grips
with that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Lisa, I think about yes, about exactly what you`re talking about.
BLOOM: Yeah, because he put his wife at risk. He`s out there allegedly having affairs with prostitutes and who knows, who else. And now presumably
they care about his wife because she`s another person, they can go to bat for her but not for themselves.
KAVINOKY: But in fairness of what actually made a lot of sense in this last clip was that the betrayal of the past, they had processed through and
worked through.
PINSKY: Maybe, well.
KAVINOKY: But, see -- but that`s some judgment that we`re now putting on them. According to her she worked through it.
PINSKY: Yes, I`m really glad you brought that, I have no faith that they worked through that. Because all I kept hearing about Darren, you say this
Sunday. But let me just say -- let me tell you why. Not only do I don`t -- I`m not seeing people that they looked like they worked through it, number
one.
But number two, I keep hearing goes to these special treatment centers that are not professionally run. I don`t know where he is now. I hope to god
he`s in a program that meets state standards for psychiatric and psychological services. But I`ve been hearing that they`ve been sort of
praying it away essentially.
SWANSON: Yeah, and, you know, the other thing is why was he accepted so quickly back into the family after something like this to reintegrate? I
know they took safeguards and things like that. But when I watch this video, what I see is a girl who just wants to forget about it.
PINSKY: Yeah.
SWANSON: You know, and the sad part is, look if you look at statistics, girls who have been molested under the age of 14, there`s a 60 percent
chance or greater that they`re going to report a rape later in life. There are 13.7 times more likely to be raped during their freshman year of
college. And this is because they kind of adapt and morph after an event like this happens.
And like Drew was saying, if you haven`t gone to a place where people are trained to deal with this type of issue, you`re not going to get the help
you need.
KAVINOKY: Well, but to her credit, she`s gone out publicly, though. And I think what she does by going on T.V. to talk openly about this, for
whatever it is that you may think about what`s she`s saying, it destigmatizes what happens, look in the same way that what happens on
celebrity rehab.
PINSKY: I agree with you. And it gives us a chance to put a little focus on it and dissect some people like Duggar.
MARTIN: I just want to say, having represented a little girl that was molested like these girls were, I know that first, they don`t want to talk
about this. And you said well she went on and told and, you know, she`s on this reality star. But we don`t know the pressure this family has probably
put on them to go and do this show.
They lost their show. They lost their income. So, there has to be a lot of pressure on these two girls from this family to continue in this legacy of
reality television and I`m disturbed by that.
PINSKY: Hold it right there. Hold it.
Coming in addition to this conversation going on, we`ll have Bill Cosby`s now apparently suing seven of the women who accused him of sexual
misconduct. The attorney of one of the accusers, you`re nod up (ph) who was mentioned on this up coming suit, but who knows, could she be mentioned in
the future? We`ll find out. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JINGER DUGGAR, JIM BOB DUGGAR`S DAUGHTER: A few weeks after the -- our faces weren`t on magazine covers anymore, we could go to the grocery store
and it was kind of more like a normal life.
And then we got word that something new had came out. I think that when we heard all this stuff, it was so unreal, like we still have trouble
comprehending it today.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was 21-year-old Jinger Duggar. Her brother, Josh, molested four of her sisters. He also and had two active Ashley Madison accounts,
that where you go match up with other people who want to have affairs if you don`t know about Ashley Madison. And allegedly cheated on his wife in
addition with prostitutes, good times.
Back with Sam, Areva, Darren, Lisa, David.
Here is more of Jinger. It`s just so outrageous to me.
MARTIN: There was a pregnancy scare too.
KAVINOKY: Yeah there`s more.
PINSKY: . he was, you know, only married like, his up at least in that tape we saw as five years.
I`ve got my 25th wedding anniversary coming up. Honey, I don`t, I`m not interested in Ashley Madison.
Here is more of Jinger Duggar from TLC`s new series Jill and Jessa Counting On, take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JINGER DUGGAR: This person that we thought we knew, this person that we loved greatly we still love, but just the hard pain that is caused. When my
mom told us about this, that we were just like so overwhelmed and so grieved about what had happened. And it almost seems like it`s just this
person that we knew is no longer the same person.
So, we just stopped and prayed and asked god to help us get through it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, David, I have mixed feelings about the way Jinger approaches it, because she feels -- it seems feels to me like she`s genuinely
struggling we`re trying to make senses in a real way.
(OFF-MIC)
PINSKY: And she`s using her faith as a support. I don`t believe this girl would try to pray it away. Though her parents might try to get her to do
that, right?
So I fear is that the fight becomes a totality of the solution rather than just a support as you works through this.
SWANSON: Yeah, if the family system basically says look the way we`re going to heal is we`re going to pray about this, then you have no place else to
go. You`re trapped in that system.
If prayer is a part of your healing process, then more power to you. I think that`s a great thing. But you need to be able to go outside of the
family and almost confess it to somebody who`s going to give you the time and attention you need to help you get past this.
PINSKY: Sam, does this make sense to you? I mean it did.
SORBO: Confess it to who, confess it to your priest?
SWANSON: A therapist, or somebody who`s a qualified person, they`ll really hear what you have to say.
(CROSSTALK)
SORBO: Right, or to the cameras, I mean who determines who is qualified? Is there like an arbiter, a general.
SWANSON: I think the other way of looking at this. If we`re in the same family together and I only go to you, my fear is that you`re just going to
tell me to shut it down, be quiet, let`s move on.
I need to go outside the family because there`s a tremendous amount of shame here, there`s a tremendous amount of damage that`s done. And I need
to go out into the world and hear from -- whether it`s a therapist or it could be a priest at a church, it could be a rabbi, it could be anybody. I
need to go out and I need to find somebody who I can confess this to.
If I continue to struggle with self destructive behaviors or thoughts or get anxiety, depression, if I`m strung in relationships then I need to go
seek out a psychological professional like a therapist.
PINSKY: No, he`s just saying if you have that, then you need a licensed professional. If you don`t have that, you still need to unburden yourself
with somebody who is just there for you. Clergy would be fine, preferably a trained clergy, who has experience with this. And I would ask that clergy,
did you have experience in dealing with these sort of things. And if not, another clergy who does have experience will be just fine. But if these
people are high, I mean these girls are at high risk for exploitation of all types.
SORBO: Oh, no. you mean like they might make a T.V. show about them?
PINSKY: Yeah, right. It`s true. It`s true. Lisa?
BLOOM: Well, I was going to ask, because you`re so knowledgeable about this. You know, what we`ve read is that this family actually actively
covered it up like to protect Josh at the time. And how does that affect a young girl who was molested and then was part of this family that was
covering it all up?
PINSKY: Lisa, let me just threw one quick thing as David challenge me to break.
BLOOM: Oh, bring it on.
PINSKY: The motors standard get really parts of the brain literally get walled off, you get memory and emotional systems and that part is
disconnected, disassociated from the rest of the functioning of the holistic brain system.
And as such it just sits there as a source of like a boil or sore that needs attention but can`t get it. And can result in the kinds of behaviors
that Dave was saying, to answer your question about the family system.
SWANSON: You know, there`s so much that happens in therapy that it`s tough to kind of encapsulate it in like a brief synopsis.
PINSKY: Right.
SWANSON: But what I will say is that, you know, to find somebody who can accept you, after you feel damage has been done, does so much to alleviate
the burden. To have something like this normalize, and I know it sounds horrible to say normalize, but to be told that there`s other people who
this has happened to and this is how they feel and this is how they`ve gone on to live a successful life. And by the way even labels sometimes, you
know, this called abuse, it was molestation, you know. All of that stuff serves a purpose.
KAVINOKY: But is it what they`re doing by going on to this T.V. show, actually helping other people, potentially normalize by saying what it is.
PINSKY: I hope so. Listen, we`re having this conversation that hopefully that will help other people.
But the fact is, this is a common problem. It needs to be taken very, very seriously. And I`m going to right now do something kind of -- maybe it`s
sort of intense, is by comparing the subway pitchman Jared Fogle, who was sentenced to more than 15 years in prison for his indiscretions, he
admitted to receiving child pornography and repeatedly having sex with minors.
So let`s talk about the similarities between Jared and Josh. I mean they`re very similar in terms of the chronicity of their problem, assuming lack of
appreciation of the consequences they`re having on people`s lives, the secretiveness, the manipulativeness, would you agree?
SWANSON: Yeah, I would say there`s a little bit of difference in the thing that with Josh, it was more about opportunistic kind of stuff where Jared
seemed much more like a predator.
PINSKY: Right.
KAVINOKY: You know, whether he pay for it or seek it out.
PINSKY: Well, but he acted out on kids too.
SORBO: And where is he not younger, but he was younger than I.
PINSKY: But he was younger, it has the same impact on the children, you understand? The children are affected profoundly even when children act out
on children.
SORBO: Sure, but Jared is.
PINSKY: Yes, is an adult being. It`s the point well taken. But Jared is an active predator.
BLOOM: I`m sorry, where is Josh in all of this? He is a grown man. Why do his sisters have to go on T.V. over and over again to talk about him in the
P. Why isn`t he speaking out and telling the story and hopefully making things.
MARTIN: But I think that`s where the family strucks. I don`t think we can under estimate the power of this family and the family structure. And this
family was like, I mean I don`t want to call it a cult because we don`t have that kind of information but they play a huge role.
KAVINOKY: . cult-like.
MARTIN: And have a lot of influence over their children. I don`t think we can ignore the loss of this big show, the grant. Everything was taken away
from them because of Josh`s crimes.
And now the daughters have to come forth, I think, and pick up the pieces for the whole family and there has to be tremendous pressure on these young
girls to do that.
And Josh has to be as far away from this as possible because the network wasn`t going to pick the girls back up with Josh in the picture.
SWANSON: By the way I will say this too, within the family, and as spiritual as they may be, and as close as they might be, you know, you
realize through that process of abuse where you`re breaking down the boundaries and you`re maintaining control over a victim. It`s very likely
that within the family, different people didn`t know what was going on. There was a lot of.
PINSKY: Oh, yeah. The same walling off that goes on in the brain goes on in the relationships and amongst the family members.
Coming up, Bill Cosby, silent no more. He is suing some of the women who accused him of having drugged and assaulted them. We`re back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Now the last woman in the clip is Anna Dugger, Josh`s wife, mother of the four children including the four-month-old. She has not left him.
Are we going to see that clip? Is that what`s happening here? Let`s see that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JILL DUGGER: Everybody makes their own decisions. And everybody makes their own choices. But they`re not the only ones that suffer the consequences.
JOSEPH DUGGER, JOSH`S BROTHER: I don`t think there`s any way that any of us would have known that my brother is living such a secret life.
ANNA DUGGER, JOSH`S WIFE: I wish it`s like I`m going to wake up and everything is going to be OK. And this really -- this can`t be true.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: See, that`s generally that I think that family is sort of attitude toward this, it`s like it`s a denial. I`m going to pretend it`s not
happening. I`ll wake up. It`s a dream. The dream is the distancing themselves from the horrible reality. It`s tough.
SORBO: Yeah, it`s almost like he needed to do this to bring them to some sort of reality. And it`s not working.
PINSKY: Well that`s an interesting way of looking upon this. You know, I like -- I actually like that, I`m not saying I want somebody to have been
abused but I like the idea, it`s an opportunity for this family to find help. It really is. Wouldn`t you agree?
SWANSON: Yes, and it`s interesting that you say that too because often times when people feel that they`re life is spiraling out of control and
they can`t manage it anymore, they want to get caught.
PINSKY: And Darren, it`s very much the way of dealing with that actually.
KAVINOKY: Sure.
PINSKY: It`s all very familiar story, right. They`re sitting with somebody on the burden of your shame, being there with that person, being of service
to other people. It`s all the same kind of recovery.
KAVINOKY: That`s right, it`s so interesting to hear the spiritual component and how that can be such an important part of people getting back to good
health. Really appreciated what you were sharing that if that`s just a portion of the overall recovery program, it can be really, really powerful.
PINSKY: That`s right.
BLOOM: . just to overcoming the hypocrisy of pilling on LGBT marriage, and being opposed of transgender people, having right of being opposed of
divorce and all the family value stuff. You know what, maybe this marriage wasn`t so perfect.
PINSKY: And it`s easy to be critical of them on that front and I`m also been very critical on them over burden, over relying on faith as the
solution when in fact it`s a component of the solution. And an important part but please don`t leave out the professional component because I hope
that`s, I just hope and pray it myself that that`s where he`s getting help.
Next up, Bill Cosby fights back. He`s taking legal action against the women who claim he sexually assaulted them. We`re back with that story after
this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Being on his couch with him taking my clothes off.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Feeling drugged and him having sex with me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Grabbing at my chest and, you know, and starting to trying to fondle me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I didn`t really talk about it much because nobody was believing it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We shall, we`ll now have our day in court and he will have his day in court to defend himself. And I look forward to that event.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Bill Cosby is now suing seven of the women who have accused him of sexual misconduct so far more than 50 women have alleged wrongdoing on his
part.
Cosby cites that they have inflicted, "Emotional distress" that they "Malicious," they may "Malicious and opportunistic false, defamatory
accusations of the sexual misconduct against him."
Lisa, you are representing another of Cosby accusers. And he has not come after. In fact he`s only come after the women who made a claim in
Massachusetts, is that right?
BLOOM: Right.
PINSKY: Why just there, why just there?
BLOOM: Well, that`s because his plan A in Massachusetts was to try to get the whole case thrown out on a motion to dismiss, that was denied by the
judge which means the case goes forward. So he`s going to have to, you know, show for a deposition, there`s going to be a trial in that case.
And now he`s gone to plan B which is the best defense is a good offense. And now he`s suing them for defamation. Is this -- make no mistake, this is
a very bold move. This is a big change in legal strategy for Bill Cosby.
PINSKY: Is it expensive, is it time consuming, is it going to delay any oncoming actions against him?
BLOOM: Yes, yes, and definitely, yes.
PINSKY: But you have always said at least you and Janice have always said your primary goal is not money, it`s not defaming him, it`s to get him on
the record.
BLOOM: That`s right.
PINSKY: Is him coming after other women going to work toward your end that way?
BLOOM: Well, you know, here is the silver lining on what he`s done today for the women in Massachusetts. They are now going to get their day in
court because he`s countersued them. So they have a right now to go to trial on that claim.
And look, all of it boils down to, did he rape them or not? If he did, they win the case. If he proves -- he`s got a very high legal burden to prove
because of the way the law is when a celebrity brings a defamation case. If he proves that they falsely maliciously brought these claims and yes, he
will win. But he`s not going to win any money from them. I don`t think any of them have any money. I just don`t see this going anywhere for him. But
he`s trying to make a statement, I think.
PINSKY: And this will be in front of a judge, right, not a jury?
BLOOM: It could be in front of a jury. Our case, we have jury demand, we would like a jury.
Janice Dickinson and I would like a jury.
PINSKY: And again, your goal being get the facts on the record, you want him to.
BLOOM: Listen, Janice and I both said publicly, if Mr. Cosby will admit what he did to her and apologize, we will withdraw the case. No money needs
to change hands. That`s what it`s about for her. That`s what it`s about for me.
PINSKY: Drug facilitated rape is more common than we like to think about it, right. It`s an awful thing, it`s something that, it`s typically a GHB
people use these days. All she was drug Hypinol but these are tend to be they tend to use drugs that you can`t taste, you can`t tell you`re using
and then all of a sudden they wake up and things might have happened.
Quickly.
BLOOM: Over 50 women have accused him of sexual assault or attempted rape. He`s only going after seven. You might wonder, well, what about the other.
PINSKY: Well, that`s why I asked the question on Massachusetts. I mean no case, he goes after them, but the rest of them, they get their.
BLOOM: I think he`s trying to send a message to women who sue him.
PINSKY: All right, there you go.
Thanks, Lisa, thank you panel.
DVR`s, you can watch the show any time.
Thank you for watching. We`ll have our audience in here soon with us and we`ll see you next time.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
