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Final Debate of 2015 Hours Away; Cruz Surging in Polls; Ex Diplomat: "Trump is Helping the Terrorists Win." Aired 2:30-3p ET
Aired December 15, 2015 - 14:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:30:00] ANDY DEAN, TRUMP SUPPORTER: The goal isn't to sleep with Donald Trump. We're electing a president of the United States. You want somebody who's tough, who's going to win the war against ISIS and somebody who's run a business before, signed the front side of the a paycheck and knows what middle class and small business owners are going through. This isn't about taking him to the drive-in and trying to make out with them.
BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Since this is a metaphor, I'm going to out on a limb.
DEAN: It might be. I don't know what Kurt is into, God bless him.
BALDWIN: There you go.
(LAUGHTER)
DEAN: It's a free country.
KURT SCHLICHTER, CONSERVATIVE COLUMNIST & COMMENTATOR: Thanks for not judging.
DEAN: He also wrote this on "Town Hall" and I had to click on seven different display ads to read the article.
(LAUGHTER)
You guys might want to look into that.
BALDWIN: Do you want to respond to that?
SCHLICHTER: When I talk to you, this isn't a discussion, it's an intervention. Donald Trump is not conservative. He is not consistent. He is never going to do what he says he's going to do. This is a guy who was against guns. Now he's for guns. He was against Mexicans. Now he's for Mexicans. He doesn't want -- he wants to ban all Muslims. Now he doesn't. I don't know what he's for.
(CROSSTALK)
DEAN: All these pundits, they say Donald Trump will never run for president. Then he runs. Oh, Donald Trump will never release his financials. Oh, Donald Trump will fade. Now he's 41 percent in the polls and what do we have? Some pundit writing for some -- a website I've never heard of saying we need to sleep with Donald Trump. (CROSSTALK)
BALDWIN: I've talked to multiple people who go back to the fact that he was once registered as a Democrat. He's thrown a lot of money toward Democrats.
DEAN: He's a businessman.
BALDWIN: New Yorker. People are worried that once he gets the vote or nomination or the office, he'll go back to his liberal roots.
DEAN: Absolutely not. He's a strong conservative that believes in limited government, low taxation. We'll hear in the debate tonight, he's been very strong. There's a reason why Iowa voters, New Hampshire voters, nationally, are responding to him.
I have to ask a question of Kurt. Are you saying the American people are dumb when they realize Donald Trump is the conservative answer here?
SCHLICHTER: No, but I'm saying that they are way off base if they think he's a conservative. Small government? This is a guy who thinks it's OK for the government to take the property of normal people and give it to rich guys using imminent domain. This is a guy who has given money to Hillary Clinton. This is a guy who says sometimes that he voted for Barack Obama. But we can't even get a straight answer on that. This guy is inconsistent. He is not conservative. He is in it for one thing and one thing only, Donald Trump's amusement. This is more important than that.
DEAN: That's a crazy thought.
SCHLICHTER: We're trying to elect a commander-in-chief --
DEAN: Let's analyze that thought.
SCHLICHTER: -- After seven years of this disaster that is Barack Obama. I want somebody that the troops that I led before I retire to be proud to salute and that man is not Donald Trump.
DEAN: It is Donald Trump. If you want somebody very, very tough, but you said Donald Trump is just doing this for himself. Look, the guy has a great life. He has a net worth of over $10 billion. Why would he want to put himself through this wringer, having to dole with the press --
(CROSSTALK)
SCHLICHTER: Because it's fun.
DEAN: -- unless he believes in it.
SCHLICHTER: It's fun. He had a rally over there with thousands of people cheering his name.
(CROSSTALK) DEAN: He loves it.
SCHLICHTER: It's about ego. It's everything about Donald Trump.
DEAN: He had a hit television show. He doesn't need this. He's got a great life.
BALDWIN: Let me jump in and ask you -- and I think you hit on a number that I think is worth highlighting.
DEAN: Thank you.
(CROSSTALK)
BALDWIN: So let's just hang on here.
(CROSSTALK)
SCHLICHTER: All right.
BALDWIN: Here's my question for you. The new Monmouth -- this national poll, 41 percent. This is after he said let's ban Muslims from coming into this country. 41 percent say we like that, right? He's at 41 percent. At what point do you, Kurt -- and we're being handed a microphone.
Wow. Thank you, magic audio men.
(LAUGHTER)
Seriously, the question is at what point do you throw your hands up and say, OK, Trump is --
DEAN: Thank you.
BALDWIN: -- if he's ultimately the nominee, I have to support him?
SCHLICHTER: Look, I don't believe the 41 percent poll. I think it's -- that's -- I believe that's a registered voters instead of a likely voter, but that's OK. That's OK. I want to see this thought out and I think we've got great candidates. We've got Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, Carly Fiorina. You do not have Jeb Bush.
(CROSSTALK)
BALDWIN: But you've got to answer the question.
DEAN: There are four other polls he's doing 40 percent or more.
(CROSSTALK)
BALDWIN: Can you eventually, if that is the inevitable, support him?
SCHLICHTER: If he is the nominee, I will support him against Hillary Clinton.
DEAN: Thank you.
SCHLICHTER: I will support my terrier, Jack, over Hillary Clinton. I will support -- see that dude over there, I'm going to support him over Hillary Clinton. I don't even know who you are.
(CROSSTALK)
DEAN: We made some headway with this guy. Good work. Good job.
BALDWIN: Who has the advantage, though? Let's take Trump out of this for a second. Who has the advantage going into tonight knowing as we're talking on the commercial break what's happened in New York and L.A. today. We don't have the full details. It's the first debate since Paris and San Bernardino. Terror on the minds of most Americans. Who has the most to gain?
DEAN: I think people want to see a strong commander-in-chief, that's going to be Donald Trump. This is going to happen more often. We have a million Syrian refugees that are now in Germany with broadband connections.
BALDWIN: What foreign policy experience, though? How does he bring that lack to the table?
DEAN: It's just about management. Look, Barack --
(CROSSTALK)
SCHLICHTER: No, it's about leadership. You're talking about leading American soldiers to combat.
DEAN: Right.
SCHLICHTER: That is important. That is critical. And this guy is chaotic, he is inconsistent, he is unfit to command.
DEAN: That's insane.
[14:35:08] SCHLICHTER: But compared to Hillary Clinton, I'd go with Donald Trump. Easy. Because she is an act of disaster.
BALDWIN: Who else on the stage, Kurt?
(CROSSTALK)
Who else do you think has much to gain? I think someone people aren't talking a lot about is Chris Christie, former federal prosecutor. Anyone else?
SCHLICHTER: The problem with Chris Christie is he's done what Donald Trump has done. By adopting liberal positions in the past. He's alienated himself from the conservative base. I'm not going to support Chris Christie in the primaries.
BALDWIN: OK.
SCHLICHTER: But I would probably support him over Donald Trump because at least he's sort of conservative sometimes now.
Look, about this banning Muslims thing, let me ask you something --
(CROSSTALK)
BALDWIN: Final thought. Final thought.
SCHLICHTER: Final thought. Thousands, tens of thousands of Americans served side by side with Muslims overseas. Why is my interpreter suddenly not to be allowed back in the United States when he kept me out of trouble, kept hundreds of Americans safe?
DEAN: That's a false choice.
(CROSSTALK)
BALDWIN: Respond to that.
DEAN: That's a false choice. We're talking about a temporary halt on immigration policy until we can figure things out. Donald Trump loves Muslims. We're talking about Muslims from radicalized nations, until we can get a hold on what's going on.
(CROSSTALK)
BALDWIN: Andrew Dean, Kurt Schlichter, thank you both so much.
DEAN: Thank you.
BALDWIN: I appreciate both of you. With everything happening here, I appreciate you rolling with that.
Candidates. As we've been mentioning here, there's a lot happening, there's a lot happening in Las Vegas. Candidates arriving at the debate stage, touring the stage. Chris Christie will be joining us during this hour and on the stage. Carly Fiorina, Rand Paul all coming up.
You're watching CNN special live coverage, live here from Las Vegas.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BALDWIN: Ted Cruz, the Senator from Texas, surging in the polls ahead of tonight's big debate here in Las Vegas. Moments ago, we saw him touring the debate stage where he will be facing off against his Republican rivals in a matter of hours.
Here with me now, Ted Cruz supporter, Bob Vander Plaats, a prominent evangelical leader in Iowa, as executive president of the conservative political organization, The Family Leader.
So, Bob, nice to see you.
[14:40:19] BOB VANDER PLAATS, PRESIDENT, THE FAMILY LEADER: It's great to be in Vegas.
BALDWIN: Welcome to Vegas.
(CROSSTALK)
BALDWIN: You brought your Iowa weather with you.
VANDER PLAATS: I did bring the Iowa weather.
BALDWIN: Thanks for that.
(LAUGHTER)
Glancing down at some of the poll numbers, as we mentioned, Senator Cruz has been on the up and up, leading in Iowa, narrow lead over Trump in the state. We are just about 50 days out from the caucus on February 1st. Why do you think Ted Cruz has been able to climb, as he has, especially in Iowa and especially with regard to Dr. Ben Carson?
VANDER PLAATS: First of all, he's a great candidate. He's a full- spectrum conservative, so a lot of different factions of the party are rallying around him. Also he's run a very smart campaign. He has built an incredible infrastructure that's allowed him to manage momentum. I see this as a slow build. I don't see these numbers going away at all. I only see these numbers growing.
BALDWIN: What one thing specifically has he done?
VANDER PLAATS: I think being a consistent conservative. And one who has a very disciplined message. People, they trust him. They don't see him doing something that would be out of character. So, therefore, I think people the more they see him, the more they like him. The key thing about those polls, Brooke, is he's either one or two with 51 percent of the voters. And in a caucus, that is a great place to be.
BALDWIN: Thinking ahead to tonight, and he's standing for the first time next to the front-runner, next to Mr. Trump himself, the big question as we've been talking about this bromance of weeks and months past, does Cruz attack Trump if Trump were to attack? Does he fight back? How will that dynamic play out tonight on the stage?
VANDER PLAATS: First of all, I'd tell Senator Cruz remember what got you here. What got you here is staying on message, staying focused on the issues, having the other candidates' backs. People are uniting around you right now so don't pick a fight with Donald Trump. If Donald Trump wants to say something, sure, you want to stay your ground but put it right back to issues, put it right back to policy and why you can be the commander-in-chief. In such a time as this, there's a lot of Americans who are just jittery about the way things are today.
BALDWIN: With regard to Ted Cruz -- and I was talking to a conservative commentator a moment ago. Your guy made a name for himself as definitely a tea party conservative who is known as the 21- hour filibuster with the "green eggs and ham" late at night and there was the government shutdown and he was the face of a lot of that. I'm just wondering how that will then translate if he were to be the nominee, pitfalls in terms of a general election is that is the face from the Republican party?
VANDER PLAATS: I don't believe there's pitfalls in a general election like that. What you're seeing --
(CROSSTALK)
BALDWIN: How does he fight that image, though?
VANDER PLAATS: Take a look at the American people. They have a 9 percent approval rating of Congress right now. Ted Cruz has exposed both sides of the aisle. The reason Mr. Trump is leading in the polls, why is Bernie Sanders doing so well? They're tired of politics as usual. I think what Cruz offers is this will not be about politics as usual, but I know what I'm doing. A lot of people like to say they're the smartest guy in the room. I think Ted Cruz might be the smartest guy in the room.
BALDWIN: Bob Vander Plaats, thank you for your time. Appreciate it.
VANDER PLAATS: Brooke, thank you.
BALDWIN: Tonight's debate will be the first Republican face-off since the terror attacks in Paris and the massacre just recently in San Bernardino. National security and the fight against ISIS certain to be front and center, but my next guest is calling out the Republican field and Donald Trump, in particular, for stoking two themes, he says, makes the United States less safe, fear and Islamophobia.
Former U.S. ambassador-at-large, Daniel Benjamin, joins me now. He served as coordinator for counterterrorism at the State Department from 2009 to 2012. He is now director of the John Sloan Dickey Center for International Understanding at Dartmouth College.
Mr. Ambassador, welcome. Nice to see you, sir.
AMB. DANIEL BENJAMIN, DIRECTOR, JOHN SLOAN DICKEY CENTER FOR INTERNATIONAL UNDERSTANDING, DARTMOUTH COLLEGE & FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR AT-LARGE & FORMER COUNTERTERRORISM DIRECTOR, U.S. STATE DEPARTMENT: Good to see you.
BALDWIN: Let me just begin with one of the points you make in this piece, is the fact that you say, you know, listen, using fear and American politics and all this rhetoric that's swirling, that's not new. But in this moment, it is more dangerous than ever. I want you to tell me why, sir.
BENJAMIN: Well, a number of reasons. The candidates in particular have painted this that we're on the verge of the apocalypse. It's Pearl Harbor, as Mike Huckabee said. It's World War III, as Chris Christie said. You increase the incentive to terrorists to strike and to make all kinds of mischief as well. I won't be surprised to find out that we have more things, more threats called in like we saw today with the Los Angeles school system. The value of an attack goes up tremendously because it's going to hurt us so much. That's one thing.
The other thing is it's dividing us at home. It's created this new Islamophobia has, if anything, alienated and is driving fear among the Muslim American community, and those people are really on the front lines. Those are the ones who are going to identify individuals who may be radicalized, who may have bad plans in mind. And we desperately need to be working closely with them and we need for those people to feel this is truly their home.
[14:45:39] BALDWIN: You know, you mentioned what happened or what's really still happening today with regard to these threats called in both in Los Angeles and New York City, the fact that the theme tonight of this debate is national security, how do you think what's happened as recent as today will be used in some of the words and the rhetoric of these candidates?
BENJAMIN: Well, you know, if the past is prologue, the candidates will continue to point to all these different incidents as being a sign that we are under siege, that we have a problem that we can't cope with, and that they are going to be tougher on national security than anyone else. And the fact is we do face a terrorist threat, there's no minimizing that. But it is important to have it in perspective. Since 9/11, 45 Americans have been killed on American soil by jihadist violence. Compare that to 400,000 or more killed by gun violence and roughly the same number in traffic violence. So I think that the rhetoric has gone far, far beyond the reality.
BALDWIN: Your point is perspective, and how this becomes cyclical. It's the terrorists who want us to be terrorized. The payoff is greater for them. But it's the fear mongering and the fear that is stoking so much of this.
Ambassador Daniel Benjamin, thank you for your perspective. I appreciate it.
BENJAMIN: Thanks very much.
BALDWIN: You can see the fifth Republican presidential debate right here on CNN, moderated by Wolf Blitzer. The first debate, the undercard, starts at 6:00 eastern tonight, only here on CNN.
As we're watching and waiting for more of these candidates to arrive here at the Venetian Hotel before they take a tour around the stage, did you know that tonight is not the only debate this week? We will talk about the Democrats who will debate this coming Saturday, ahead.
Also much more on our breaking news. As we mentioned a moment ago, threats against two of the nation's biggest school systems in both Los Angeles and New York City. We are now hearing those threats originated from the same source. We'll have a live report for you from Los Angeles coming up in just a moment.
You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:51:28] JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: So how are you feeling going into this debate, Senator? RICK SANTORUM, (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE & FORMER SENATOR: I feel
great. It's an opportunity to talk to millions of people and hopefully talk about the ability to lead this country at a time when this country is threatened here at home, not doing well economically and struggling. Leadership is important, and hopefully someone who has a good track record of accomplishment can help provide some positive lift to this great country.
ZELENY: You talk to Republican voters all the time --
BALDWIN: Rick Santorum officially in the hall, former Pennsylvania Senator, talking to our correspondent there, Jeff Zeleny, as we're watching.
Listen, we're just really fluid in the show as we're getting these first pictures of these different candidates as they're entering the hall here at the Venetian Hotel in Las Vegas and checking out exactly where they're standing, which podium they will be assigned to. Senator Santorum at that undercard debate that begins at 6:00 tonight here on CNN.
But let's have a big conversation on what my next couple of colleagues are looking for this evening in a matter of hours.
Joining me now, Republican strategist, Kayleigh McEnany. Dan Pfeiffer is here as well, CNN political commentator. And he used to work with the Obama administration, of course, former senor advisor.
(AUDIO GAP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:56:27] DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN ANCHOR: And hello, everyone. National security is going to be the hot topic of the Republican debate tonight. All the candidates will discuss how they feel they can keep America safe. You're looking at a live picture of the convention floor.
We'll be returning to Brooke Baldwin momentarily who's in Las Vegas.
You can see there Senator Ted Cruz was the last person to get to the convention hall and he is taking a bit of a tour around.
And I believe we have Sara Murray who is joining us there.
Sara, are you live?
SARA MURRAY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Deb, I can hear you. You can see over my shoulder here Senator Rick Santorum is sort of taking his walk-through.
You know, this is more important for some candidates than others. There are some candidates who really want to come onstage and they really want to get a feel for what's going to be happening to them. You know, where you need to go if you want a makeup touch-up, where to look to see Facebook questions, what the lights are going to look like when you need to wrap. That's a big important part for some candidates.
Others not so much. Donald Trump decided to forego his walk-through today. We just saw his staffers come through and kind of check and make sure everything was to their liking. But Trump is the candidate who wants to show up right before the show gets rolling. He kind of wants to keep that momentum going. And so he's not even taking the opportunity to check out his podium and scope the debate stage ahead of time.
FEYERICK: There's been a lot of talk that really it's going to be a debate between Trump and Carson. Obviously, the other candidates, how does that affect them and how they try to really make an impact and get into the game?
MURRAY: Well, I think it's going to be interesting because you're going to have Donald Trump right there center stage. On either side you'll have Carson and Ted Cruz. Carson is on the rise -- sorry, Cruz is on the rise and Carson's numbers have been falling. So I think the big -- we look at Donald Trump and wonder whether he and Cruz will go after each other. I wonder if you'll see sparks from some of the other candidates. If you're going to see Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz go after one another. If you're going to see Carson try to punch up and turn around those following poll numbers.
The really interesting thing about Donald Trump is when we see him campaigning, he does not hold back. He is willing to go after nearly any of his Republican rivals and the Democrats as well, but he tends to be a little bit more reserved on the debate stage. He's a little more demure and more likely to let the other candidates on stage go after each other and sort of rip each other to shreds. We'll see if that same strategy holds for him tonight.
FEYERICK: Yeah, and that's just hours away.
Sara Murray there on the convention floor for us. Thanks.
We will now turn it over, back to Brooke Baldwin -- Brooke?
BALDWIN: All right, Deborah Feyerick, I'll take it.
We're back here live in Las Vegas. We got thrown a little technical curveball. We're back up live.
Where was I? I was introducing our next guests, Republican strategist, Kayleigh McEnany; Dan Pfeiffer, CNN political commentator and former senior advisor to President Obama. And Krystal Heath is here, conservative blogger and station manager at KBXL Radio.
Thank you for your patience.
I want you to think of the top two things you're looking at on that stage tonight, Kayleigh, beginning with you.
KAYLEIGH MCENANY, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Sure. I think executive resolve, strength and capacity. 78 percent think there's going to be another terrorist attack soon so I want a candidate in contrast to our current president that emanates strength and is not afraid to call Islamic terrorism by name. Secondly, I want a president with the judgment call, ability and foresight to know when to go into a place and not go into a place. Donald Trump was able to say we shouldn't have gone into Iraq. He was able to Saddam Hussein was a threat way before he was. So executive resolve and judgment are the two things.
BALDWIN: Dan?
DAN PFEIFFER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I'd like to see how Marco Rubio is going to handle attacks on his efforts to work with President Obama and Senator Reid on immigration reform. I
