Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Sparks Fly During Republican Debate in Las Vegas; Republican Candidates Bash Obama and Clinton; Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired December 16, 2015 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:00:18] CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: And good morning. I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me. The politics of fear and the threat of terrorism both looming large in the final GOP debate of the year.

How large, you ask? Well, take a look at this word cloud showing the terms used most last night. War, ISIS and attack are the big buzzwords in the CNN showdown. The term "World War III" was used five times. As for how to win that war, well, the word "tough" comes to mind.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED CRUZ (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: America is at war. Our enemy is not violent extremism. It is not some unnamed malevolent force. It is radical Islamic terrorists.

SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We must deal frontally with this threat of radical Islamists, especially from ISIS. This is the most sophisticated terror group that has ever threatened the world or the United States of America. They are actively recruiting Americans.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: These are people that want to kill us, folks, and you're objecting to us infiltrating their conversations? I don't think so. I don't think so.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: And the candidates seizing on the fear factor and firing off their own missiles at one another. A sample.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. RAND PAUL (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Trump says we ought to close that Internet thing.

JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Donald, you know, is great at the one-liners, but he's a chaos candidate.

GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And this is what it's like to be on the floor of the United States Senate. Endless debates about how many angels on the head of a pin from people who have never have to make a consequential decision.

BUSH: Donald, you're not going to be able to insult your way to the presidency.

DR. BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It's actually merciful if you go ahead and finish the job rather than death by a thousand pricks.

HUGH HEWITT, CNN DEBATE MODERATOR: So you are OK with the deaths of thousands of innocent children and civilians? It's like --

CARSON: You got it.

PAUL: So when you ask yourself, whoever you are, that think you're going to support Donald Trump, think do you believe in the Constitution?

TRUMP: They can kill us, but we can't kill them. That's what you're saying.

CARLY FIORINA (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If you want something talked about, ask a man. If you want something done, ask a woman.

PAUL: Well, I think if you're in favor of World War III, you have your candidate.

TRUMP: Virtually the entire early portion of the debate was Trump this, Trump that. In order to get ratings, I guess. I've gotten to know him over the last three or four days. He has a wonderful temperament. He's just fine. Don't worry about it.

RUBIO: Ted, you support legalizing people who are in this country illegally.

CRUZ: That for Marco to suggest our record is the same is like suggesting the fireman and the arsonist have the same record because they're both at the scene of the fire.

HEWITT: Are you ready to assure Republicans tonight that you will run as a Republican and abide by the decision of the Republicans?

TRUMP: I really am.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: There you have it. So let's head to Las Vegas, shall we? For the scorecard on the morning after. CNN's Athena Jones witnessed it all.

Good morning.

ATHENA JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Carol. It was so interesting to see all of those exchanges last night, candidates going after each other. Some of the ones we didn't necessarily expect to go after each other or expected to go after each other didn't like Trump and Cruz.

There's been a lot of talk about this focus on fear, focus on terror and maybe some criticism that these candidates are trying to scare American voters. But the fact of the matter is, a lot of Americans are scared.

For months we've seen the economy at the top of the list of concerns of voters. But now foreign policy issues, issues of terrorism have risen to the top after the Paris attacks and the San Bernardino attacks. So that's one reason there was so much of a focus on those issues. But one of the things that was really interesting was to see Jeb Bush go after Donald Trump. And finally, maybe land some punches there. And he's tried and failed to land on some of these past debates, but there were several heated moments, even somewhat nasty exchanges between the two of them.

Bush certainly may have allayed the concerns of some of his supporters that he hadn't been showing enough fire in the belly. We don't know if it's too little, too late. But Bush told our own folks on "NEW DAY" this morning that he felt he did a good job.

Let's go ahead and play more of what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: It's not really a debate. It's a performance. You've got to -- you have to have -- take the moment to be able to say what you want to say rather than answer the question.

I was brought up in a family where you -- you know, someone asked you a question, you answer it. You've got to avoid -- I mean, you really have to be respectful of the question but get to the point you want to make. And in the case of Donald Trump, he's a bully.

Look, I mean, you guys interview him all the time. I mean, he has his way. And to push up -- you know, post up against him a little bit and push back, you get a sense of, you know, he's not quite all in command.

Look, Donald Trump is not going to be president of the United States by insulting every group on the planet. You know, insulting women, POWs, war heroes, Hispanics, disabled, African-Americans. You can't insult your way to the presidency. And I think people have to stand up against that.

[10:05:10] Look, people are angry. They have lots of anxiety for good reason. But preying on that is not how you win. You have to give people a sense that we can fix these big, complex things both on foreign policy and our domestic economy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JONES: So there you heard Governor Bush reprising some of the arguments he's made in the past, some of the arguments he's been making on the campaign trail. Last night he seemed to do a better job of making that argument in front of a debate crowd. But, of course, we just don't know if it's going to help him in the polls -- Carol.

COSTELLO: All right. Athena Jones reporting live from Vegas, thank you. With the debate behind him, Marco Rubio is back on the campaign trail

in two key states. Live pictures here from Iowa where Rubio -- where a Rubio rally is just about -- I guess it has begun, right? Because that is Marco Rubio on the stage. The Florida senator will also hold a rally in New Hampshire later this afternoon. He has a busy, busy day on tap.

Speaking of Senator Rubio, he along with a few other candidates are receiving high marks for their performance in the debate.

Here now to talk more about this, CNN political director David Chalian and CNN political commentator Amanda Carpenter. Amanda is also the former communications director for Senator Ted Cruz.

Welcome to both of you.

AMANDA CARPENTER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Thank you.

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Thank you.

COSTELLO: Thanks for being here. David, I thought it was interesting what Jeb Bush told "NEW DAY" this morning, that it's not really a debate, it's a performance. You don't really answer the question. You just want to get your point across. That was refreshingly honest.

CHALIAN: That was refreshingly honest. And Jeb Bush admittedly -- self-admittedly says, you know, he has struggled with that performance in the past. I do think it was one of his strong stronger performances. The big question now is, is that too late in this process? Are voters still giving -- are primary voters still giving Jeb Bush a full hearing?

I think that was the performance that his supporters, his donors, they were looking for that a few months back as the Donald Trump surge was taking place over the summer and heading into the fall.

(CROSSTALK)

COSTELLO: Amanda, everybody says --

CARPENTER: And on that point --

COSTELLO: Oh, go ahead. Go ahead, Amanda.

CARPENTER: I was just going to say, on that point with Bush, it was a good performance for him by his own standards were unreasonably low, given how much experience he has in politics. But that said, he -- Jeb Bush is still very much caught up in this Trump trap. His best moments of the night came via Donald Trump. They weren't really explaining his positions. Time and time again, I've been keeping track in my notebook how many times he was saying we need a plan. We need this, we need that.

As a candidate, you can't say we need. You just have to explain and do it. So he hasn't really crossed that threshold play as a candidate, but, you know, his best moments where he let his guard down, he was a little bit funny, it was really refreshing to actually see his personality come out.

COSTELLO: Interesting. So, David, everybody thought that Chris Christie would shine in last night's debate. In your mind, did he?

CHALIAN: I mean, I think he did himself some good. I really do. I think that, listen, with all the anger towards Washington, when Chris Christie gave out a line about this sounds like debate on the Senate floor as the three senators are hashing through their differences, that's a differentiator. And that's a good moment for Chris Christie.

You also have to remember, Chris Christie has a little bit of Donald Trump in him in the sense that he portrays strength, and that is clearly something that people are looking for right now. Chris Christie's problem is, he has no path here beyond being able to sort of come out of New Hampshire with either victory or a better than expected performance. And he's been on the rise there a little bit of late, but he is going to have to deal with the other folks in his lane, Marco Rubio chief among them, in New Hampshire if he's going to be able to catapult forward into the process.

(CROSSTALK)

COSTELLO: I think -- I wanted to talk about Ted Cruz for just a little bit because you know Ted Cruz, Amanda.

CARPENTER: Sure.

COSTELLO: You know, the most intense fireworks came between Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio, two Cuban-Americans talking about our immigration crisis in this country. Both fighting over whether the other said that undocumented -- undocumented immigrants would be granted citizenship, and both denying they actually said that. I mean, who came out ahead in that exchange?

CARPENTER: Well, I do think Ted Cruz came out ahead in this, but you've got to understand, the immigration issue really isn't separate from national security, and I think that's why you saw Ted Cruz say again and again, border security is national security. And this is something that's going to continue to play out between Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio.

And you know, a lot of people are having trouble with the fact on the conservative right that Marco Rubio is willing to give a path to citizenship, to illegal aliens, but at the same time mounts this massive surveillance program, you know, that Ted Cruz opposes. Those things don't really marry up if you really want to stop the terrorists from coming into our country. So that's going to keep going on the issue of immigration, surveillance and military intervention.

Those are the big three between those two. And it's a very important debate that needs to be resolved within the party before we take on Hillary Clinton.

(CROSSTALK)

CHALIAN: It was -- sorry, Amanda. [10:10:06] COSTELLO: I've got to stop you guys right there because we

have a breaking news event coming up. I apologize. But thank you so much for being with me. I appreciate it, David Chalian and Amanda Carpenter.

I want to talk national security right now because the FBI director, James Comey, is now talking here in New York at One Police Plaza. Let's listen.

JAMES COMEY, FBI DIRECTOR: About the counterterrorism threat today. Some of the worries that we have with respect to being effective against that threat, some of the particular challenges that we face. And then I want to take your questions.

Let me start with the threat that we face. I think everybody in this room knows this, but it's worth reminding folks that your parents' al Qaeda was a very different model than the threat we face today. By your parents' al Qaeda, I mean the primary tumor of terrorism which before 9/11 and in the years shortly after 9/11 was based in the Afghanistan-Pakistan region, and it was focused on the spectacular attack aimed at national landmarks, aimed especially at this great city, focused on airplane-based attacks, sophisticated multipronged efforts involving carefully selected operatives, long-tail surveillance, careful operational security, and the execution of the next big thing.

And in a way, all of us in the counterterrorism business in some sense came to rely upon that model in counterterrorism because we knew that for bin Laden and his successor, Zawahiri, at least in the 10 years following 9/11, to do something small would be a confession of weakness, would be a confession that the counterterrorism efforts of the United States military, our intelligence community and our partners was preventing them from doing the next big thing. And so their focus remained, how could they do the next big thing?

That culture of core al Qaeda and its approach to attacks lasted, frankly, until the rise of the group that we call ISIL. Two years ago the model changed. Two years ago with the rise of ISIL, we were suddenly confronted with a terrorist group that had significant land that it controlled, significant resources, and an entirely different way of approaching terrorism. Their mission was two-pronged -- to attract people to their so-called caliphate, to bring fighters and their families to the Iraq-Syria border region where they claim their so-called caliphate, and if they couldn't attract fighters to them, they wanted people to kill where they were.

Not the sophisticated, airplane-focused, national landmark-focused attack, but kill anybody wherever you are. That was their twin- pronged call, their siren song. Come or kill. Come or kill. And the message went out in a way that al Qaeda never imagined and never could have dreamed of. Instead of the set piece videos filmed by bin Laden or filmed by Zawahiri, then delivered by a courier and then sent to Al Jazeera to be played on television, the threat came from ISIL through social media which had revolutionized the way all of us connect to each other, and they made it revolutionize terrorism because they sent their twin-pronged message of come or kill out through the chaotic spider web especially of Twitter.

So that the message was no longer in a place to be found, right. In the old days, say two years ago, if someone wanted to consume terrorist propaganda, they went to a particular place. They went to a Web forum. They went to find where a copy of "Inspire" magazine was posted. And if they wanted to talk to a terrorist, they sent an e- mail into "Inspire" magazine and would hope that Anwar al-Awlaki would e-mail back.

Two years ago ISIL changed that model. Because it was no longer a place where the media was posted. It went out through this chaotic spider web. And it arrived in your pocket, on the device on your hip or in your breast pocket, all day long was the twin message. Come or kill. Come or kill. And if you wanted to talk to a terrorist, you didn't need to send an e-mail to anybody. You just need to follow that terrorist on Twitter, and then maybe engage in Twitter direct messaging with that terrorist.

And so all day long, ISIL invested in a very slick message that buzzed in pockets all over the world and especially in the United States. Twitter works as a way to sell books, as a way to promote movies. It works as a way to crowd source terrorism, to sell murder. And it's a message that resonated and continues to resonate with troubled souls, with unmoored people seeking meaning in their life, often teenagers or adults who have had trouble with drugs or their families or the criminal justice system and are seeking some centering in their life.

[10:15:05] And all of a sudden buzzing in their pocket 24 hours a day is this message. We offer you an opportunity to participate in the ultimate meaning, in a final battle between good and evil on God's side. We will offer you, either if you come to the caliphate or if you kill in our name, meaning beyond description. Over and over again, that message went out. It is the reason that the FBI has hundreds of investigations in all 50 states trying to evaluate where people are on the spectrum between consuming this poison and acting on these poison.

And these are not carefully selected operatives. These are not people urged to engage in long-tail surveillance. They are told come or kill now. Al Qaeda would never, ever have vetted an operative by suggesting the names of people in law enforcement or in the military they should go kill. That's what ISIL does. And so that investment in that social media began to pay dividends, especially this spring, where all of a sudden all over the country, including in this great city and the metropolitan area, we had people acting out on that "I will kill where I am. I will try to kill people law enforcement."

And these were people, as I said, unmoored people, unpredictable people, where even ISIL, their inspirers, could not count on when they were going to do what they were going to do. We had individuals who were being urged to kill on July 4th who woke up on June 2nd in Boston, Massachusetts, and said, I'm not waiting any longer. Today's the day. I'm going to go kill the boys in blue. Our colleagues in law enforcement, in uniform, today.

This is the challenge that we face by ISIL breaking the model. The paradigm of al Qaeda still exists in the world, but ISIL has become the leader in the global jihad through this use of the crowd sourcing of terrorism. This poses enormous challenges for all of us in law enforcement and counterterrorism. Some of which are obvious. We face a threat that really has three prongs. The first is ISIL al Qaeda -- ISIS would like to attract people to the caliphate, the traveler challenge.

Second, ISIL would like to inspire people to kill where they are, the radicalizing challenge. And third, ISIL has thousands and thousands of fighters that it has now attracted over the last two years to its so-called caliphate. It now aspires to send those fighters around the world to Europe or to the United States if they can to kill. So this is a hydra-headed monster that we face.

The cooperation that is represented here and by the JTTFs that began here in the great city of New York are critical to responding to that threat. Because here's how hard it is. When someone is consuming that poison in the privacy of their own home, who sees them? Only family members. If they go out in the community and interact with small groups of people, who sees them? Some community members. Who is going to hear about the radicalization besides those closest to them?

It's highly unlikely to be an FBI agent. It's far more likely to be a Suffolk County cop, an MTA officer, someone who knows the community and has the contacts to hear about the changing behavior of these unmoored, troubled souls. The knitting together that began 35 years ago in this great city with the first joint terrorism task force is critical to responding to this changed paradigm.

I've been all over this country saying what you already know. The joint terrorism task forces, this knitting together that we've experienced in this city for decades is as important, in fact, I would suggest more important today than it was right after 9/11 because the threat is dispersed, it is very hard to see. It is harder to see even than I have described. Because one of the challenges we face, among many, in confronting this hydra-headed monster is if ISIL finds somebody online who is a live one, someone who might be willing to travel or kill in place, they will begin a Twitter direct messaging contact.

If they really think this is someone who will kill on their behalf, they make another move. They move them from Twitter direct messaging which we can get access to with lawful process, to a mobile messaging app that is end-to-end encrypted. And at that moment the needle that we have been searching a nationwide haystack to find goes invisible to us. Because with court process which is the way we do our business, when we intercept that mobile messaging app that is end-to-end encrypted, that is gobbledygook. We cannot read it.

So the situation we face is the most dangerous people to us that we are tracking disappear when they are in the cusp of the most dangerous manifestation of their radicalization. That is a big problem. We call this the going-dark challenge. Why have we, I and Commissioner Bratton, been talking about this so much? [10:20:10] We face two different challenges when it comes to

encryption. Devices and data in motion. We often encounter devices on which sits information that is important to our terrorism work, important to our criminal investigations. And we have a search warrant. We cannot unlock that device because the manufacturer have built it in such a way that even they can't unlock it. And so we have in our hands a device that holds information that a judge has already said is important to an investigation, we can't access it.

That is the data at rest problem. Similarly, with respect to information that bad guys are communicating between each other, we developed probable cause to believe that that information is relevant to one of our most important pieces of work, and a judge issues an order for us to collect it --

COSTELLO: All right, we're going to step away from this news conference, that was the FBI director, James Comey. He's holding a press conference right now here in New York City. Later on, they're going to move to another private room. They're going to take questions from reporters. We will continue to monitor that for you.

I'll be back with much more in the NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:25:09] COSTELLO: The gloves were off in Vegas last night. The Republican showdown pinning Republican against Republican. But no matter how much each candidate blasted one another, the battle against Democrats brought common ground. And two names seemed to be on almost everyone's tongue.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FIORINA: Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama are responsible for the growth of ISIS.

CHRISTIE: This administration, Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton, through their foreign policy, have betrayed the American people.

BUSH: Barack Obama does not believe America's leadership in the world is a force for good. He does not believe that our strength is a place where security can take place.

CRUZ: ISIS is gaining strength because the perception is that they're winning, and President Obama fuels that perception. Right now Obama is launching between 15 and 30 air attacks a day. And it is photo-op foreign policy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: All right. In fact, we did the math. Hillary Clinton's name was mentioned 31 times. The most by Ted Cruz with 10.

So how are Democrats taking this all in? Joining me now from Vegas is the former governor of Michigan, Jennifer Granholm. She's also the senior adviser for Correct the Record, a pro-Hillary Clinton group. Welcome.

JENNIFER GRANHOLM, SENIOR ADVISER, CORRECT THE RECORD: Thank you, Carol. Glad to be on.

COSTELLO: Glad to have you here. So was Hillary Clinton watching last night?

GRANHOLM: Actually, she was traveling last night. I'm sure she will catch glimpses of it, but I'm not sure she needed really to watch because it was a bunch of sound bites on the part of the Republicans stirring up fear. And she had just given -- the reason why she was on a plane, is because she had just given a very comprehensive speech about exactly the plans that she would undertake to defeat ISIS both at home and in two previous speeches abroad and online.

You just heard Director Comey talk about the online threat. And you also heard him talk about the importance of having the Muslim community be partners, our eyes and ears. Well, if the Muslim community was watching last night's debate, they would be angry, and you would see why many people are saying that Donald Trump and the rest who are like him are ISIS' biggest recruiting tools.

COSTELLO: Well, here's the thing, though, about Hillary Clinton. She took office as secretary of state in 2009, right? The next year ISIS made al-Baghdadi its leader, so ISIS existed, but everybody was concentrating on al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden because he was killed in 2011. So how can Hillary Clinton argue that she didn't miss ISIS' rise?

GRANHOLM: Well, obviously as secretary of state, she did not miss the rise. She knew what was going on. And she also knows the importance of having a comprehensive strategy. What was really frustrating about last night, Carol, is that they were all sort of blaming Barack Obama, but they were citing the strategies to attack ISIS using all of the stuff that Barack Obama is already doing. They want airstrikes --

COSTELLO: But wait a minute, Jennifer. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. I mean, it's a valid criticism. We never heard much about ISIS in 2009, in 2010. We heard a lot about Osama bin Laden being killed. We didn't hear about ISIS. And you well remember that President Obama did call ISIS, you know, a member of the JV league. Those are valid criticisms.

GRANHOLM: Well, let's think about where this all began. I mean, ISIS is an offshoot of al Qaeda. There was a separation. This all began, all of this turmoil, when we went into Iraq in the first place. Obviously, it was George Bush's policies that set the stage for this. But the question is really, Carol, what are we going to do going forward? Who is the adult in the room that is going to be able to address and have a comprehensive and deep strategy to be able to defeat ISIS?

I think the reason why the polls show that Americans trust Hillary Clinton more to defeat terrorism is because she is the adult in the room. And the polls -- in fact, there was a "Washington Post" poll a couple of days ago that had her beat the Republicans by nine points in that question. They trust that she knows what's going on, that she has a comprehensive strategy, and that she will be the person to keep them safe.

COSTELLO: You know, right at the moment now, anger and emotion are winning. People just want -- they just want to know that the person running the country or who is in charge of our military is tough enough, is angry enough, to deal with this problem in a really harsh, effective way.

GRANHOLM: Yes. What's frustrating about it, though, Carol is that that anger and that emotion is being used to castigate the Muslim community. They are trying to stoke the Republican base. I read a blogger yesterday, Donald Trump is using a cattle prod essentially to stir up and roil up emotions. That is not what a leader does. A leader puts forth solutions, a leader brings people together and unites them.

I mean, even George W. Bush after 9/11, united people. What these Republicans did last night, with all the fear-mongering, is to divide people, to divide --