Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Newsroom
Candidates Battle over Best Ways to Fight ISIS; Trump on ISIS: "We Must Infiltrate the Internet"; Christie Embraces Anti-Washington Stance. 10:30-11a ET
Aired December 16, 2015 - 10:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[10:29:47] JENNIFER GRANHOLM, "CORRECT THE RECORD": They are trying to stoke the Republican base. I read a blogger yesterday, Donald Trump is using a cattle prod essentially to stir up and roil up emotion.
That is not what a leader does. A leader puts forth solutions. A leader brings people together and unites them. I mean even George W. Bush after 9/11, united people.
What these Republicans did last night, with all the fear-mongering, is to divide people, to divide Muslims from Christians, to divide us. In fact, our allies across the world, if they watched this debate last night, how insulted would they be about the huge swath of negative emotion that is being pushed on a global religion? It is really counterproductive to stoke up fear and stoke up division when we're trying to keep our country safe.
And that's why a leader brings people together. That's why Hillary Clinton yesterday went to Minneapolis too and met with Muslims and said, I am proud to be an American with you because you're going to be helpful to us in making this happen. We're not going to drive them away. We're going to use them as a tool to be able to defeat terrorism.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Governor Jennifer Granholm -- thanks for being with me.
Still to come in the NEWSROOM -- yes, Donald Trump wants to shut down parts of the Internet in the fight against ISIS. But what exactly does that mean? How do you shut down parts of the Internet? I'll talk with Trump's national spokesperson about that next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[1035:10] COSTELLO: How to fight ISIS is the question of our day. It certainly was the question of the night last night during the debate. How far are these candidates willing to go if they become president of the United States? Well, for the Republican candidates "tough" seems to be the solution. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: When you have the World Trade Center go, people were put into planes that were friends, family, girlfriends, and they were put into planes, and they were sent back for the most part to Saudi Arabia.
They knew what was going on. They went home, and they wanted to watch their boyfriends on television. I would be very, very firm with families, and frankly, that will make people think because they may not care much about their lives, but they do care, believe it or not, about their families' lives.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSTELLO: All right. So Donald Trump was actually talking about -- the question was posed to him about whether he would kill terrorists' families in the fight against ISIS.
So let's talk about this and more with retired Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt. He's also former assistant secretary of state for political military affairs under President George W. Bush. General, just your reaction to Trump's statement.
BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, FORMER ASST. SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, I think many of the statements last night were appealing to the primary voters and not necessarily to the national security of the United States. To somehow suggest, as many of these did, that we should be carpet bombing, that we should be expelling Muslims from America, that's not going to solve the problem. And I would wish that my candidates would speak with a little more prudence.
COSTELLO: Senator Ted -- you talk about prudence, Senator Ted Cruz was asked about his idea to carpet bomb Islamic militants. He suggests that the United States should do that not by targeting cities like Raqqa in Syria, which is ISIS' stronghold, but the open desert. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: In the first Persian Gulf War, we launched roughly 1,100 air attacks a day. We carpet bombed them for 37 days, saturation bombing after which our troops went in and in a day and a half mopped up what was left of the Iraqi army.
Right now Obama is launching between 15 and 30 air attacks a day. It is photo-op foreign policy. We need to use overwhelming air power. We need to be arming the Kurds. We need to be fighting and killing ISIS where they are.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSTELLO: So General, your thoughts?
KIMMITT: Well, first of all, I think we're making -- drawing a false analogy. In 1991, we had the Iraqi army in the field in entrenched positions, and that type of operation, air power can be effective. They're out in the open desert. You don't have to worry about collateral damage. You don't have to worry about civilian population areas. Our adversaries have learn from that, and now they are burrowing themselves into population centers and in many cases using civilians as human shields. So while I appreciate the sentiment, I think it's historically inaccurate and probably bad military policy to be carpet bombing places such as Raqqa and other populated areas.
COSTELLO: Ok. So another big moment last night was when Dr. Ben Carson was asked if he would be willing, if he's too nice, not to accept collateral damage in war as in the killing of civilians like women and children. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You have to be able to look at the big picture. And understand that it's actually merciful if you go ahead and finish the job rather than death by a thousand clicks.
HUGH HEWITT, RADIO HOST: So you are ok with the deaths of thousands of innocent children and civilians. It's like --
CARSON: You've got it. You've got it.
HEWITT: That is what war -- can you be as ruthless as Churchill was in prosecuting the war against the Nazis?
CARSON: Ruthless is not necessarily the word I would use, but tough, resolute.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSTELLO: All right. So the audience thought that was a gotcha question. Was it, General?
KIMMITT: Well, it really was because again, the type of operation that we're conducting right now, whether it's effective or ineffective, is significantly restricted by the rules of engagement and the collateral damage estimations. That doesn't necessarily tie the hands of our commanders on the ground, but it restricts them significantly.
And if there is a chance of civilian population on the target or nearby the target, it could well be that the decision is to pull away from that target today and hope to get them tomorrow because what we don't want to do is not just kill the enemy but also isolate and get the population to hate us and turn against us for killing innocent women and civilians. That's a tough call.
COSTELLO: So when candidates talk about carpet bombing and bombing the hell out of is, is that responsible rhetoric?
[10:40:03] KIMMITT: It really isn't, but some of the points that were being made last night are entirely correct -- that much of this rhetoric appeals to those Americans that don't feel safe these days.
And the last eight years of this administration to many have made us feel less and less safe because we have a president and a policy that won't take the fight to our enemies but, in fact, lets the enemy come to us.
So because of that fear and insecurity on the part of the American people, I think these candidates are tapping into that fear and in some cases leveraging it and frankly, some cases exploiting it.
COSTELLO: Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt -- thank you so much for being with me this morning.
KIMMITT: Sure.
COSTELLO: Still to come in the NEWSROOM, could the war on ISIS include shutting down parts of the Internet? Donald Trump thinks so. I'll ask Trump's spokesperson about that next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSTELLO: When it comes to defeating ISIS, Donald Trump says the U.S. needs to use its most brilliant minds to crack down on terrorist propaganda -- the propaganda that appears online, and that means in his view, potentially shutting down parts of the Internet.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We should be able to penetrate the Internet and find out exactly where ISIS is and everything about ISIS. And we can do that if we use our good people.
I'm not talking about closing the Internet. I'm talking about parts of Syria, parts of Iraq, where ISIS is -- spotting it. Now, you could close it. What I like even better than that is getting our smartest and getting our best to infiltrate their Internet so that we know exactly where they're going, exactly where they're going to be. I like that better.
[10:45:04] But we have to -- who would be -- I just can't imagine somebody booing. These are people that want to kill us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSTELLO: So cue the online backlash as well. Twitter wasted no time mocking Trump's comments during last night's debate in Vegas, thanks to the BBC for flagging -- by the way. "The Nightly Show" tweeted out this photo of Homer Simpson reading "Internet for Dummies". It reads "Trump talking about the Internet".
"Washington Post" blogger Alexander Petri poking fun at Trump, tweeting this: "Put up a huge, beautiful wall around our Internet."
Another "Washington Post" reporter tweeted this: I'm not sure Donald Trump understands how the Internet works."
With me now, national spokesperson for the Trump campaign, Katrina Pierson. Hi, Katrina. Thanks for being here.
KATRINA PIERSON, NATIONAL SPOKESPERSON FOR DONALD TRUMP CAMPAIGN: Hi, Carol. Great to see you.
COSTELLO: What exactly did Mr. Trump mean by penetrating and infiltrating the Internet?
PIERSON: Well, Mr. Trump is speaking to particularly with regards to Iraq and Syria where war has essentially been declared on the United States that he would like to get the best and the brightest in the game to figure out a way to penetrate. We know where there are ISIS twitter accounts, and we need to be able to get through there and fight the encryption and identify who these people are.
He's not talking about a blanket ban on the Internet like a lot of people are saying. And you also have that faction that's so concerned about privacy rights but guess what? That doesn't apply to terrorists outside of the country. It doesn't apply to people outside of the country.
If you're not a U.S. citizen, it does not apply. We have every right to monitor who is trying to attack our country.
COSTELLO: Well, he's talking about infiltrating and blocking parts of the Internet. So, again, what exactly does that mean? Because critics argue Trump's idea would put the United States in line with, like, authoritarian regimes like China and North Korea. How would his plan -- because they've blocked parts of the Internet, right? Not all of it.
PIERSON: They do.
COSTELLO: They control what people see at certain times.
PIERSON: They block several part.
COSTELLO: So how would Mr. Trump's plan differ from China's?
PIERSON: Well, I think we just heard FBI Director Comey talk about this new age that we're in and how important it is to take this very seriously, if we're going to be serious about stopping ISIS infiltrating the country. And what Mr. Trump is talking about is similar to what other countries have done, but it's not fully restricted. It's not a blanket ban on these countries. It is a way --
COSTELLO: Which countries?
PIERSON: -- it is a way to control -- well, you just mentioned like China, for example, how they block a lot of their Internet and access to what they can see and can't see. What Mr. Trump is talking about, when we identify hostile individuals or even terrorists, we need to be able to go in and block them from accessing the United States. Not a blanket ban.
COSTELLO: So he would be willing to take on some of the policies that China uses to do the same.
PIERSON: Well, it's not a policy that China is using. China uses blanket bans on a lot of different things. Mr. Trump is only talking about targeting, bringing in the best and the brightest to figure out how to do that with top intelligence officers to figure out how to block individuals from being able to get into the United States with that propaganda.
COSTELLO: Ok. I think, though, that encryption is really the problem. And, of course, private companies provide this software to users to protect their privacy.
PIERSON: Sure.
COSTELLO: So how does Donald Trump convince companies like Microsoft, for example, or Apple to get rid of encryption services? Because those companies care deeply about their customers' privacy.
PIERSON: Well, absolutely. I think that's why he's mentioned Bill Gates before. He wants to bring in the best and brightest to sit down and discuss how we can effectively do that.
COSTELLO: There are some cases in court right now, would he be willing to do that?
PIERSON: I'm sorry?
COSTELLO: Would he be willing to bring these companies to court to fight in court to get them to release certain information about their customers' Internet activities?
PIERSON: Well, I don't think that would be necessary. I mean, if you bring in the best and the brightest and come to an agreement, court's not really necessary. This is just an idea and a concept that Mr. Trump wants to explore.
We have to do something to stop this from happening. And if we can get that done by bringing in those individuals, if you target a particular, let's say, Twitter account and you go to twitter and say, look, we know this is an individual tied to ISIS, they're underground, they're promoting propaganda, then Twitter can be held accountable for that.
And many times they've already said when they do identify those things, they do shut them down. So what Mr. Trump is talking about is adding that layer of security and monitoring so that when that does happen, we can effectively catch it and stop them from accessing.
COSTELLO: All right. I have to leave it there. Katrina Pierson -- thanks for being with me.
PIERSON: Thanks -- Carol.
COSTELLO: Still to come in the NEWSROOM -- you're welcome.
Still to come in the NEWSROOM: New Jersey governor Chris Christie trying to position himself as a Washington outsider. Did he do it?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COSTELLO: Presidential hopeful Chris Christie came out swinging against his rivals in Las Vegas last night.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R-NJ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I want to talk to the audience at home for a second. If your eyes are glazing over like mine, this is what it's like to be on the floor of the United States senate.
The electorate's so angry with everybody who's involved in government in Washington, D.C. Because if you listen to the folks up here, you would think that they weren't even there -- that they had nothing to do with this.
And yes, we would shoot down the planes of Russian pilots if, in fact, they were stupid enough to think that this president was the same feckless weakling that the President we have in the Oval Office is right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSTELLO: Ok. So there you have it. He's trying to portray himself as a Washington outsider and very, very tough when it comes to fighting terrorism.
Did his tactic gain him momentum, though? With me now: Mercedes Schlapp, she served in the White House under President George W. Bush as a spokesperson for the Spanish language media outlets. I'm also joined by Republican strategist Kayleigh McEnany. Thanks to both of you for being here.
So Kayleigh -- was it effective?
KAYLEIGH MCENANY, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: It was. Look, that was an excellent performance, there's no doubt about it. Christie is very tough on national security.
But look, conservatives are going to have a hard time voting for him. They liked when he called Obama a feckless weakling last night, but they nonetheless remember when he hugged Obama and embraced him six days before the 2012 election in New Jersey. They remember him accepting Medicaid funding. They remember him bringing common core to the state of New Jersey. That was a great debate performance, but conservatives still have an inherent distrust of Chris Christie.
[10:55:05] COSTELLO: So Mercedes, are conservatives still upset that he embraced President Obama after the hurricane?
MERCEDES SCHLAPP, FORMER GEORGE W. BUSH STAFF: Absolutely. I think that has remained as one of the biggest photo ops that you've seen. And I'm sure any of these other campaigns would continue to distribute that photo if they were smart to go against Chris Christie.
The deal here is that the GOP establishment, they feel demoralized, diminished because conservatives have been very strong and very vocal. And really, the GOP establishment, they have not picked a front- runner. Christie may play in the GOP establishment, but it might not be enough.
COSTELLO: Ok. So I'm running out of time -- I'll just be honest. I'm just going to each ask each of you who you think won the debate.
So Kayleigh who do you think won?
MCENANY: Ted Cruz and Donald Trump had a close second.
COSTELLO: Mercedes?
SCHLAPP: I think there's several winners. I think it's between Cruz, Trump and Bush. I think they had strong performances.
COSTELLO: Thanks to both of you -- Mercedes Schlapp, Kayleigh McEnany.
And thank you for joining me today. I'm Carol Costello.
"@THIS HOUR WITH BERMAN AND BOLDUAN" after a break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:59:58] KATE BOLDUAN, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Kate Bolduan.
JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: I'm John Berman. We are outside the Venetian, Las Vegas where it is the first morning after the last GOP debate of 2015. And you can still see the steam rising from the venue behind us. It was just that intense.
