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Republican Candidates Clash Over Foreign Policy, Immigration; Rand Paul: Syria No-Fly Zone Will Cause World War III; Defense Secretary in Baghdad Talking ISIS Strategy; Ben Carson Appeared Weak on Foreign Policy; Some Lighter Moments in the Debate. Aired 2-3a ET
Aired December 16, 2015 - 02:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[02:00:13] JOHN VAUSE, CNN ANCHOR: Great to be with you for another hour. Welcome to our viewers all around the world. I'm John Vause, live in Las Vegas with CNN's special coverage of the U.S. Republican presidential debate. It was their last debate of the year and the candidates came out swinging, vying for their party's nomination.
Most of the candidates talked about Donald Trump at some point and his controversial plans to keep the U.S. safe from terrorism. But some candidates, like Ted Cruz, who is surging in the polls, would not get into it with the front-runner.
All of the candidates laid out their plans to keep the United States safe and also to try and defeat ISIS. Donald Trump defended his plan to temporarily ban Muslims from entering the U.S.
And some of the most heated changes were between Trump and former Florida Governor Jeb Bush.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEB BUSH, (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE & FORMER FLORIDA GOVERNOR: Look, two months ago, Donald Trump said that ISIS was not our fight. Just two months ago. He said that Hillary Clinton would be a great negotiator with Iran. And he gets his foreign policy experience from the shows.
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Honestly, I think Jeb is a very nice person. He's a very nice person, but we need tough people. We need toughness. We need intelligence and we need tough. Jeb said when they come across the southern border, they come as an act of love.
BUSH: You said on September 30th, that ISIS was not a factor.
TRUMP: Am I talking or are you talking, Jeb?
BUSH: I'm talking right now. I'm talking.
TRUMP: You can go back. You can go back. You're not talking.
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: You interrupted me, Jeb. (CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: Are you going to apologize, Jeb? No.
Am I allowed to finish?
UNIDENTIFIED MODERATOR: One at a time. Go ahead.
TRUMP: Am I allowed to finish?
When Jeb comes out and he talks about the border -- I saw it, and I was witness to it, and so was everyone else, and I was standing there -- they come across as an act of love. He's saying the same thing right now with radical Islam. And we can't have that in our country. It just won't work. We need strength.
UNIDENTIFIED MODERATOR: Governor Bush?
BUSH: Donald, you're not going to be able to insult your way to the presidency. That's not going to happen. And I do have the strength.
(CHEERING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: One of the more surprising movements of the night came towards the end. Listen as questioner, Hugh Hewitt, asked Donald Trump about his future intentions.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HUGH HEWITT, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST & DEBATE MODERATOR: Are you ready to reassure Republicans tonight that you will run as a Republican and abide by the decision of the Republicans?
TRUMP: I really am. I'll be honest, I really am. I mean, people have been putting me to --
(CHEERING)
(APPLAUSE)
HEWITT: Dr. Carson --
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: Excuse me, may I just finish my --
HEWITT: Oh, please.
TRUMP: I've gained great respect for the Republican leadership. I've gained great respect for many, and I'm going to even say, in different forms, for the people on the day, in different forms. But I have great respect for the people I have met through this process. I have never done this process before. I have never been a politician. But for the last six months, I've been a politician. But I will tell you, I am totally committed to the Republican Party. I feel very honored to be the front-runner.
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: OK. Let's bring in our CNN global economic analyst, Rana Foroohar; and CNN political reporter, Eric Brevner.
So let's start with that moment. This was a nice Donald Trump embracing his colleagues, kind of.
RANA FOROOHAR, CNN ECONOMIC ANALYST: Nice-ish.
VAUSE: I like everybody. We're all friends here.
(LAUGHTER)
FOROOHAR: You sort of wonder what the closed-door conversation was before that comment. It was interesting because Trump acted like he may actually have a shot at winning this time around. I think that's why he acted a bit more professional, not quite as inflammatory as usual. He had one or two altercations with Jeb Bush. But this was a big deal. I said, look, I'm not going to run as an Independent. I'm going to be a Republican. It helps when you're at 42 percent in the polls.
(CROSSTALK)
VAUSE: You can say I'm placed to be the Republican nominee. I'm not going to leave the party. What do you think?
ERIC BREVNER, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: Yeah. I thought it was more interesting that he didn't go after Ted Cruz tonight. He nudged Cruz at one point, was really, really friendly. You can tell that Donald Trump, he's sort of feeling more and more like he has something to lose here. Right? And it's not just the polls that give him that sense. This is somebody who feeds off the crowds in the moment. He sort of lives in that. Yeah.
FOROOHAR: And I think the relationship between Trump and Cruz is interesting, too. I called them frenemies earlier. I think that Cruz is trying to test the waters and see how Trump he needs to be to keep that far right portion or the party, and, yet, not really screw up his own chances of being the nominee.
VAUSE: And stay with us because Ted Cruz, he has this romance going with Donald Trump. He's leading in Iowa. He came under attack from Marco Rubio. And look at this exchange of the policies on immigration reform.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[02:04:55] SEN. MARCO RUBIO, (R), FLORIDA & PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: As far as Ted's record, I'm always puzzled by he attack on this issue.
Ted, you support legalizing people in this country illegally. Ted supported a 500 percent increase in the number of H1B visas, the
guest workers that are allowed in this country, and Ted supports doubling the number of green cards. So I think what's important for us to understand is there is a way forward on this issue that we can bring our country together on. And when I'm president, I will do it and it will begin by bringing illegal immigration under control, and proving it to the American people.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
UNIDENTIFIED DEBATE MODERATOR: Senator Cruz?
SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Look, I understand that Marco wants to raise confusion. It is not accurate, what he just said that I supported legalization. Indeed, I led the fight against his legalization and amnesty bill. And, you know, there was one commentator that put it this way, that for Marco to suggest our record is the same is like suggesting the fireman and the arsonist have the same record because they're both at the scene of the fire.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: So this was one of the issues that they slugged it out over, the whole issue of illegal immigration and amnesty and that kind of stuff. How vulnerable was Rubio on this?
FOROOHAR: I think he's particularly vulnerable at this moment. I think the fact we've had incidents of terror, the fact that fear, security is the big issue right now, not the economy, not jobs, not debt, certainly, it makes him vulnerable. I think what was interesting about this exchange is that neither of them really clarified their real policy positions. I think they were both hedging and waiting to see what the voters were going to want to hear.
VAUSE: What do you think, Eric?
BREVNER: I think it's interesting that Marco Rubio has clearly really studied the opposition research book on Ted Cruz, because he was muddying this by bringing in some sort of unrelated Ted Cruz immigration votes. But I wonder how much the Republican electorate knows about Rubio being sort of left of the middle of the GOP electorate on immigration.
VAUSE: The whole thing that he's --
(CROSSTALK)
FOROOHAR: I think so. I think so. And this came up because, you know, there was a lot of questions about the debate, about cooperating across the aisle. That's a great thing, actually, maybe in a leader in the general. Right now, it could be a weakness for him.
VAUSE: At that moment, there was another exchange about, you happen, who voted for the NSA and collection of metadata, and who made the country safer and who made things more dangerous. That was the moment I agreed with Chris Christie. My eyes glazed over.
Do you think most people watching --
(CROSSTALK)
FOROOHAR: Yeah. Yeah. I was completely checking that box. That was a great point for him. That's what Chris Christie does really well is point out those kinds of eye-rolling moments that people are really upset about. That's what Carly Fiorina does sometimes, too, although not as well as she had in the past. Saying, look, we hard tired of the political class, we tired of talking, we want solutions, and that's exactly what he was saying.
BREVNER: And politicians, operatives, donors, maybe some journalists were totally paying attention to that Rubio/Cruz exchange. We all got it, but, like, no one else did.
(LAUGHTER)
VAUSE: The amazing thing that Christie can do, and this is why I don't think anyone can quite write him off. Poll numbers aren't so great, by he has this great ability to look straight down the camera and talk directly to the American people. And he had a lot of those moments tonight. So it was a good debate for him?
BREVNER: It was. It was interesting when Rand Paul sort of went after him on Bridgegate.
VAUSE: Yeah. He ignored it.
BREVNER: He totally ignored it, which is the mark of a candidate who is doing well. He sort of -- you don't punch down, right? Chris Christie showed a lot of poise in that moment I thought, for someone who is bombast. He's not Donald Trump, but he's got a temper. And in that moment, he was very restrained, very on message. Yeah, I think he had a good --
(CROSSTALK)
FOROOHAR: He got a lot more airtime, too, than in the past.
VAUSE: And that comment from Rand Paul was a little difficult.
FOROOHAR: It was difficult. Rand is trying to stay in the game, but not much longer.
(LAUGHTER)
VAUSE: OK. Rana and Eric, thank you for being with us.
I think you're coming back.
Eric, we'll see you probably next debate.
And a short time ago, I spoke to CNN political commentators, Ana Navarro and Jeffrey Lord, about the debate's more fiery moments. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
VAUSE: Ana, let's start with you.
This was a very feisty Jeb Bush. We haven't seen him like this before. He wasn't the only one who took on Donald Trump in any substantial way. Was this enough? Was this a turn around moment?
ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I hope so. It would have been terrible if he had not had a good debate. This is the first time that I genuinely feel enthused about Jeb's debate performance. I think we have seen him do the best debate performance out of the five and I think he was very strategic and tactical. He saw that open lane. Everybody else is afraid to lay a glove on Donald Trump. They want his supporters. They don't want to antagonize those supporters. I think Jeb has figured out, he's not getting those supporters and he saw that wide open lane and he went right for it. He rattled Donald Trump. He went right under his skin, got a lot of air tike. And Jeb Bush, like you said, we have not even, he would fought allow himself to be shut down, who made his points, was solid on policy, and was good stylistically and landed the punches.
VAUSE: Jeffrey, do you think Jeb Bush got under Donald Trump's skin?
(CROSSTALK)
[02:10:07] JEFFREY LORD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think he had a good night. I really do. He's had -- as Ana has been candid on camera to say, he's had debate problems. I think tonight maybe he's finally found his stride.
That said, I'm beginning to think that the new situation here is the Cruz/Rubio rivalry. And Donald Trump, frankly, just at this point is sailing along there. And it's just -- he just did fine. He was himself and he was OK.
NAVARRO: I think Trump was very smart in not taking that debate and, you know, engaging more in the Cruz/Trump narrative and attacking Cruz. He tried attacking Cruz earlier this week and it didn't work well for him. He got a lot of pushback from conservative media, from conservative radio, as you know, and both of them decided, made the decision that they were not going to go up against each other. I think you are going to see right now, you know, the flood gates are open. And you are going to see Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio who are s| evenly matched, such good debaters, who are both so similar on paper, lawyers, rookie Senators, immigrant parents. I think you're going to see them go after each other hard in the next several weeks.
VAUSE: Do you think Donald Trump is a little more restrained tonight? Maybe because he can see himself as the nominee and that was why he was sort of trying to stay above it?
LORD: I think that's part of it. I think this might have been the American formulation of the Napoleon maxim, never interfere when your enemies are in the process of destroying themselves. No that they're destroying themselves, but they are fighting. So why should he get involved in the middle of this? Let them go at it.
VAUSE: Explain this bromance between Donald Trump and Ted Cruz. I mean, where does that go from here?
LORD: If Donald Trump wins, it might get to a ticket.
VAUSE: So you could see a Trump/Cruz --
(CROSSTALK)
LORD: Sure. Sure. And I can tell you I can see heart attacks all over Washington this minute.
(LAUGHTER)
NAVARRO: I refuse to accept it. There's seven stages of grief. I'm firmly in denial.
(LAUGHTER)
I absolutely refuse to accept Donald Trump will be the nominee. I think -- look, I think that you've seen indications of where it's going to go. Ted Cruz, very calculating, very smart, has bided his time, has been stroking Donald Trump's ego up until now in hopes that Donald Trump will at some point get tired, got bored, drop out, and he will inherit those supporters. I think if Donald Trump continues to see Ted Cruz as a real threat in Iowa and thinks he may lose to Ted Cruz in Iowa.
The one thing we know about Donald Trump, he can't control himself. He might be able to control himself for a couple of hours, you know, one night.
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: But this happy Trump ain't going to last too long.
VAUSE: Happy Trump?
LORD: Happy Trump. I think people like him because he's himself. I mean, I think that's part of the lure here is that, aside from the things he said, the point he makes the message. He's a message candidate, not unlike Ronald Reagan. And we were saying earlier --
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: Jeff, every time you compare Trump to Reagan, an angel loses his wings.
(LAUGHTER)
VAUSE: Very quickly, anything can change after tonight or is the race pretty much where it was before?
LORD: I think it's probably more or less where with -- it's probably entering a new phase, but we're going to have a little freeze so to speak with Christmas.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[02:14:37] VAUSE: Ana Navarro and Jeffrey Lord speaking just a short time ago. Now, something you often hear from the candidates complaining about
how much time they actually got to talk. We actually crunched the numbers from Tuesday's debate. Take a look at this. Ted Cruz logged the most talk time, just over 16 minutes. Marco Rubio and Donald Trump, about 13 minutes apiece. Chris Christie, Jeb Bush, around 10 minutes apiece. Rand Paul, Carly Fiorina and John Kasich coming in at about nine minutes.
Don't miss the replay of the entire debate right here on CNN. That's at 7:00 p.m. on Wednesday night in Hong Kong, 8:00 p.m. in Tokyo.
Well, foreign policy was front and center at the Republican presidential debate. And after a break, we'll tell you why one candidate thinks a no-fly zone in Syria might actually cause World War III.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(SPORTS)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VAUSE: Welcome back, everybody. During the Republican presidential debate, all of the candidates got to stake out their positions on foreign policy. Chris Christie's plan to create a no-fly zone in Syria led to this exchange with Rand Paul.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR & DEBATE MODERATOR: Would you be prepared to shoot down that Russian plane and risk war with Russia?
GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R-NJ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Not only are we prepared to do it, I would do it. A no-fly zone means a no-fly zone, Wolf. That's what it means.
(APPLAUSE)
CHRISTIE: See, maybe -- maybe because I'm from New Jersey, I have this kind of plain language hang up, but I would make very clear -- I would not talk to Vladimir Putin. In fact, I would talk to Vladimir Putin a lot but I would say, listen, Mr. President, there's a no-fly zone in Syria. You fly in, it applies to you. And, yes, we would shoot down the planes of Russian pilots if, in fact, they were stupid enough to think that this president was the say feckless weakling that the president we have in the Oval Office is right now.
(APPLAUSE)
BLITZER: Senator Paul, Senator Paul, I want you to respond to what we just heard from Governor Christie. If there was a no-fly zone, you say that potentially could lead to World War III. Why?
SEN. RAND PAUL (R-KY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, I think if you're in favor of World War III, you have your candidate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: CNN's international diplomatic editor, Nic Robertson joins me now from London.
Nic, it wasn't just Chris Christie who was talking tough when it came to Russia, John Kasich and Carly Fiorina also talking about taking on the Russians and in a very confrontational way.
[02:19:55] NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yeah, John Kasich even more confrontational, than shooting down an aircraft, he said it was time to punch Russia on the nose. Carly Fiorina said she would not talk to President Vladimir Putin.
If any of the candidates threw a bone to Russia in a way, it was Donald Trump because he said that, look, Assad in Syria is a problem, ISIS is a problem, but we can only tackle one problem at a time, so put ISIS first and put Assad to one side, and that's precisely what Russia wants.
But the vast majority of the candidates here, on various different levels -- Carly Fiorina talking about Iran, as well, very confrontational, saying Iran would have to renegotiate the deal with the United States, vis-a-vis the nuclear issue. That was something that was seen to be broadly supported by the other candidates, that President Obama and Hillary Clinton have got their foreign policy wrong. So there was, in that contest, a lot of tough talk and, you know, from a Russian perspective, an Iranian perspective, any one of these particular candidates here would appear to be giving them up and making themselves a much tougher opponent for Russia or Iran achieving their own foreign policy objectives.
VAUSE: And there was agreement on one essential point, I guess, when it came to fighting ISIS, was to get the Arab nations to basically send more troops to fight ISIS on the battleground there. But that has been part of Barack Obama's strategy. It hasn't actually worked so well.
ROBERTSON: Yeah. There was a -- you definitely heard that from all the candidates. Marco Rubio saying it was important that the 34 Sunni nations that agreed a common policy towards Syria and towards ISIS that was egregious in the past few days in Saudi Arabia was important. Where these candidates differ from the way that President Obama has engaged the Sunni countries in the region are perhaps two significant points. One is that if you look at what Saudi Arabia has done over the past few years, which is really ramp up its military, take a much stronger stand in the region, that's been a reaction to what the United States has done under President Obama, which is do a deal with Iran which upsets Saudi Arabia and the Sunnis allies, and not support its allies in the region, President Bin Ali (ph) in Tunisia and President Hosni Mubarak in Egypt during the Arab Spring. So potentially, these Republican candidates do make a different and perhaps stronger deal with these Sunni nations and what President Barack Obama, a Democrat, has been able to do.
VAUSE: OK. Nic Robertson, diplomatic editor in London. Appreciate it, Nic. Thank you.
And we have this just in, U.S. Defense Secretary Ash Carter has landed in Baghdad. Secretary Carter has a busy day ahead. He has meetings scheduled with the secretary of defense and the Prime Minister Haider al Abadi. This comes days after Carter raised the possibility of more U.S. support for Iraq forces as they try and take back the city of Ramadi from ISIS.
Now, on the immigration issue, Donald Trump and Jeb Bush argued over Trump's proposal to ban Muslims from entering the United States.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We are not talking about isolation. We're talking about security. We're not talking about religion, we're talking about security. Our country is out of control. People are pouring across the southern border. I will build a wall. It will be great wall. People will not come in unless they come in illegally. Drugs will not pour through that wall. As far as other people, like in the migration, where they're going tens of thousands of people having cell phones with ISIS flags on them, I don't think so, Wolf. They're not coming to this country. And if I'm president, and if Obama has brought some to this country, they are leaving. They're going. They're gone.
(APPLAUSE)
BLITZER: Governor Bush, you called Mr. Trump "unhinged" when he proposed banning non-American Muslims from the United States. Why is that unhinged?
BUSH: First of all, we need to destroy ISIS in the caliphate. That should be our objective. The refugee issue will be solved if we destroy ISIS there, which means we need to have a no-fly zone, safe zones there for refugees, and to build a military force. We need to embed our forces inside the Iraqi military. We need to arm directly the Kurds. And all of that has to be done in concert with the Arab nations. If we're going to ban all Muslims, how are we going to get them to be part of a coalition to destroy ISIS? The Kurds are the greatest fighting force and our strongest allies. They're Muslims. Look, this is not a serious proposal. In fact, it will push the Muslim world, the Arab world away from us at a time when we need to reengage with them to be able to create a strategy to destroy ISIS. So Donald is great at the one-liners. But he's a chaos candidate and he would be a chaos president.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[02:25:09] VAUSE: Let's head down now to Abu Dhabi and CNN anchor, Becky Anderson, for more on this.
Becky, we'll talk about the ban on Muslims entering the U.S. in the moment. But we have Ash Carter, U.S. defense secretary, on the ground in Baghdad, talking more U.S. forces heading to Iraq. And tonight on stage, all but two of the candidates, all but Donald Trump and Rand Paul, seem to be in favor of sending the troops to Iraq and Syria. So there seems to be some momentum for that not just from the Republican side but also from the Democratic administration. How is the prospect of more U.S. soldiers, more troops, heading to Iraq and possibly even Syria being viewed in the region?
BECKY ANDERSON, CNN ANCHOR, "CONNECT THE WORLD": It's a very difficult one to answer. We heard Ash Carter when he was in Turkey the other day calling on the Gulf States to do more. And at the beginning of this crisis, back in April of 2014, when we began to see the emergence of ISIS at the beginning of this year, when we saw the terrible death of the Jordanian pilot, there was a big push certainly from the Jordanians and from other countries here to get -- for this to become an Arab war. They talked about this being an Arab war and this was a fight for the Arab nations. So I think this is a region that is very split about whether they want to see American boots on the ground again in this region post 2003.
There are those who say Bush, George W. Bush overreached in his actions in the Middle East with Iraq and Afghanistan. There are those who now say that President Obama has under-reached, that his disengagement, and that is draw of counterterror activities actually created this emergence of this scourge that is ISIS in Iraq and Syria, terrorizing people across the Middle East and displacing so many more.
I would suggest that the verdict is out so far as those who would like to see more boots on the ground as opposed to those who don't. The man on the street, I have to say, in the Middle East, is not a great fan of Washington these days -- John?
VAUSE: OK. Becky, thank you.
Becky Anderson, live in Abu Dhabi with some important perspective.
OK. It has been a night of bromance and brawling. After the break, we'll hear what the top Republican spokesman makes of the big fight night in Vegas.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[02:31:06] VAUSE: Welcome back, everybody. I'm John Vause, live in Las Vegas with CNN special coverage of the U.S. Republican presidential debate.
The Republican front runner, Donald Trump, says he thought the debate was his best yet and it was eloquent. Along with the other candidates, he went head to head on the Vegas strip Tuesday night trading blows on terrorism, national security and immigration. Senator Ted Cruz, rising in the polls, tried to make his case that he would be the best commander-in-chief. And the sparks flew between former Florida Governor Jeb Bush and Donald Trump. Take a look at some of the highlights.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Donald, you know, is great at the one liners. But he's a chaos candidate. And he would be a chaos president.
PAUL: So Marco can't have it both ways. He thinks he wants to be this, oh, I'm great and strong on national defense, but he's the weakest of all the candidates on immigration.
CHRISTIE: If your eyes are glazed over like mine, this is what it's like to be on the floor of the United States Senate --
(LAUGHTER)
-- I mean, endless debates about how many angels on the head of a pin from people who have never had to make a sequential decision in an executive position.
TRUMP: I think Jeb is a very nice person. He's a very nice person, but we need tough people. We need toughness. We need intelligence and we need tough. Jeb says when they come across the southern border, they come as an act he of love.
BUSH: You said on September 30th that I that ISIS was not a --
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: Am I talking or are you talking, Jeb?
BUSH: I'm talking right now. I'm talking.
TRUMP: You can go back. You're not talking.
(CROSSTALK)
SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R-FL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama's strategy is to lead from behind. It sounds like what he's outlining is not to lead at all.
PAUL: Well, I think if you're in favor of World War III, you have your candidate.
CARLY FIORINA (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE & FORMER CEO, HEWLETT- PACKARD: Talking tough is not the same as being strong. And to wage war, we need a commander-in-chief who has made tough calls in tough times and stood up to be held accountable over and over, not first- term Senators who have never made an executive decision in their life.
BUSH: The simple fact is, if you think this is tough and you're not being treated fairly --
(CROSSTALK)
BUSH: -- imagine what it's going to be like --
TRUMP: I wish it was always as easy as you, Jeb.
BUSH: -- or dealing with the Islamic terrorism that exits. This is a tough business and --
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: Oh, and you're a tough guy, Jeb.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
BUSH: And we need to have a leader that is --
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: You're real tough.
BUSH: You're never going to be president of the United States by insulting your way to the presidency.
TRUMP: Let's see, I'm at 42 and you're at 3. So, so far, I'm doing better.
(CHEERING)
BUSH: It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.
TRUMP: So far, I'm doing better.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VAUSE: Clever.
CNN global economic analyst, Rana Foroohar; and CNN political reporter, Eric Bradner, back with me one more time here in Las Vegas.
OK. So there were some good moments there. Jeb Bush had a couple of good liners. It was interesting because when Bush did go after Trump, he went back to old form. His response was essentially, look at the scoreboard, I'm 41, you're 3.
FOROOHAR: Yeah. Yeah.
VAUSE: He just couldn't help himself?
FOROOHAR: He couldn't -- well, I mean, when you're 41 and he's 3 --
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
FOROOHAR: And Jeb couldn't help himself saying you're not going to insult your way to the White House, which was the most social line of the night.
VAUSE: It was.
But for Jeb Bush, Eric, was this a turn-around moment? What do you think?
BRADNER: Well, I think it was enough to keep donors at bay and to extend his life a little bit. They're starting to become a bit of a buzz about whether he would make it to the Iowa caucuses despite the fact that he has a massive fundraiser advantage over everyone else. I think the freak out does add a little bit after this. It was the most energy, the most oomph that he's shown in any of these debates.
But, no, a candidate at 4 percent can't dramatically turn things around on the strength of one debate. Carly Fiorina has shown us how far one good debate will take you.
VAUSE: So far, Bush, he's at 3 percent. It's going to be the most ineffective advertising campaign in political history, right?
FOROOHAR: I think so. He's just not a great debater. He stumbled. He's not going to --
(CROSSTALK)
FOROOHAR: -- the campaign trail. He wasn't great. His sheer debating skill, I think, is -- it's not a strong point. He did play an important role tonight, though, in that he was the guy that said, look, this anti-Muslim rhetoric, this anti-immigration stuff has to stop. He spoke out most strongly about that. And it was disturbing that that wasn't a bigger issue.
[02:35:11] VAUSE: It's one thing that the Republican voters in that room just did not want to hear.
FOROOHAR: Didn't want to hear.
VAUSE: The issue I have with Marco Rubio is that he was rendered (ph) tonight and, you know, everyone piled on. And for the first time, he wasn't slick. Right?
BRADNER: Marco Rubio has a ton of political talent. But Ted Cruz is the other best debater on that stage. And Rand Paul was sort of like chipping at him from the outside. And Paul wasn't, like, central to that debate. But it was enough to agitate Rubio, to get under his skin a little bit.
Rubio is never going to flail. He's too poised for that and he's too up on the weaknesses of other candidates. But this wasn't his best night. And I think, especially the immigration exchange, could prove problematic for them.
FOROOHAR: But it's interesting because the very things that made him vulnerable tonight, the fact he's more moderate, more central is the fact that he's more moderate, he works across the aisle, it could work in his favor in a general election.
(CROSSTALK)
FOROOHAR: And he kept trying to point that out.
(CROSSTALK)
VAUSE: Look at the polls. He's the one that does best against Hillary Clinton, right? So I guess that then begs the question, why don't they want him as the nominee? Why don't they want the guy who is most likely to win the general election?
FOROOHAR: I think Trump has thrown a spanner in the whole thing. The fact that Cruz and Trump have this relationship and Cruz is trying to get a lot bit of that Trump Teflon Glow back to himself shows the party hasn't made up its mind about where it's going land. It's still a big field. The fact that you have a disruptive candidate like Trump and such a big field is a real problem because you don't have one front-runner re-emerging yet.
BRADNER: And it's going to be really important here.
VAUSE: No one wants to get out because they think they're the ones to beat Trump if everyone else gets out of the way.
FOROOHAR: I think this time really became the Rubio/Cruz show. It's almost like a little brother, big brother sparring.
VAUSE: They're so similar.
Very, very quickly, the -- I guess that the thing about Marco Rubio is that, you know, he is this young guy, he is the guy that they're most likely to beat Hillary Clinton, and they're worried about him in the Democratic camp.
BRADNER: Absolutely. Sarah Palin, actually, was here in Vegas last night and was playing a word association game with CNN's Jake Tapper and described Rubio as robotic. There's a lot behind that word but that got at the conservative critique of them. But he's so practiced. That robotics thing cuts both ways. He's so practiced and poised and able to handle himself on any stage. That's why Democrats are afraid to run against him.
VAUSE: Because I want to get you on the back end of this. I spoke with the Republican National Committee spokesman about the tone of this debate and this is what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED SPOKESMAN, REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE: Well, I think we talked about and focused on issues, which is great. Every candidate had plenty of opportunity to get their point across to talk about what their vision was, the solutions that they have the problems to face in this country and that's what a debate is supposed to be about.
VAUSE: You're watching this debate. What's the headline? What's this take away?
UNIDENTIFIED SPOKESMAN: Well, I think it depends on who you are and that is the beauty of tonight. We had 13 candidates, take two debate stages. Each presents their own philosophy, vision, and it's up to voters to decide which one of them, of those folks, best matches what they're looking for in a candidate.
VAUSE: It seems to me at some point there was a real division between the isolationists in the party, allowing the dictators to stay in power. Was that a real divide in the party with these candidates?
UNIDENTIFIED SPOKESMAN: Again, each candidate expressed what they think is important. Everyone sitting at home tonight could say that's the kind of president I'm looking for, that's the kind of commander- in-chief I'm looking for and hopefully get behind that candidate.
VAUSE: I don't know if you want to comment on this, but do you think Jeb Bush got under do know Donald Trump's skin a little?
UNIDENTIFIED SPOKESMAN: You're right. I don't want to get into that. I'm not going to comment on the back and forth. I think each of these candidates played the game that they wanted to play and hopefully got the outcome they wanted.
VAUSE: If you look at the end result, I mean, it was a -- it seemed to there was a lot of policy, a lot of quarters of it. It got feisty towards the end.
UNIDENTIFIED SPOKESMAN: This is a contact sport. This is what these candidates are supposed to draw differences and distinctions between their issues, what they believe in and what their solutions are. That's the whole point of these debates is about, not that everyone plays Patty Cake.
VAUSE: Thanks very much.
UNIDENTIFIED SPOKESMAN: Thanks.
VAUSE: Appreciate it.
UNIDENTIFIED SPOKESMAN: Appreciate it.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VAUSE: Yeah. Everyone is out there making -- everyone is not making Patty Cake is what he was saying towards the end. He said this is a substandard debate. Finally, you're sitting at home, you're a Republican voter, you have a really good look at these candidates and you know where they are. And I guess we do. This is where this debate has been, I guess, different to the previous ones.
[02:40:07] FOROOHAR: Very much. There was so much meat to chew on here. We talked about intervention, toppling regimes. This is very substantive both instances of foreign policy, security issues at home, privacy, almost every big issue was on the table.
BRADNER: We talked about the Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz exchanges. There's a lot of substance there. Rubio drew Cruz out, getting him to take a position he hadn't quite taken yet saying he opposed any legal status at all. That was news. You know, the security versus privacy exchanges were great. That was a real debate within the Republican Party. It was good to see. VAUSE: There's lot to talk about and we'll be talking about it for a
while yet, but we'll leave it here for now.
Thanks for being with us.
A short break here. When we come back here on CNN NEWSROOM, critics say foreign policy is a political Achilles heel for candidate, Ben Carson. We'll tell you how he did on that issue when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VAUSE: While U.S. Republican contenders for the White House were trading barbs at this debate, one candidate, Dr. Ben Carson, experienced more than one awkward moment. Carson was once nipping at the heels of front-runner Donald Trump in the polls among voters.
For more on this, let's go to Jonathan Mann, CNN's host of "Political Mann" joining me from the CNN Center in Atlanta.
Good to see you, Jon?
JONATHAN MANN, CNN HOST, "POLITICAL MAN": You, too, John.
As you mentioned, just a few weeks ago, pollsters saw a surge for Ben Carson, and then came the terror attack mass murder in California. National security suddenly seemed a whole lot more important to Republicans. And Carson, a neurosurgeon with no experience in international affairs, hasn't been quite as competitive.
At the CNN debate, he was earnest, but maybe a little odd. Carson isn't a screamer or an interrupter. He was mildly dissatisfied that he wasn't getting more attention or airtime.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
[02:45:12] BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: First of all, let me complain a little bit. This is the first time I've spoken and several people have had multiple questions, so please try to pay attention to that.
MANN: It's the sound of the voice. Carson is a soft-spoken man and his tentative approach to foreign policy led to a question about whether he could lead the United States into war, even or especially if it involved the use of deadly force on a mass scale. Here is what he had to say.
CARSON: Well, interestingly enough, you should see the eyes of some of those children when I say to them, we're going to have to open your head up and take out this tumor. They're not happy about it, believe me, and they don't like me very much at that point. But later on, they love me. Sometimes you -- I sound like him.
UNIDENTIFIED DEBATE MODERATOR: You are OK with the deaths of thousands of innocent children and civilians, it's like --
(CROSSTALK) (BOOKING)
CARSON: You got it. You got it.
MANN: A calm defensive mass killing as if it was something people would be grateful for later.
But Carson was surprisingly silent on an issue that came up more than once, domestic surveillance in the U.S. as a tool to fight terror. Two other candidates got into a protracted and personal argument about it -- Carson?
CARSON: I think you have to ask them about that.
(LAUGHTER)
I don't want to get in between them. Let them fight.
MANN: There's just something a little tepid about Carson, and the polls are telling. Have a look at this one. This is a "Washington Post"/ABC News poll. Carson is the only line heading down.
Quick word, more Carson, more debate, more everything this week on "Political Mann" in London. You can see the show Friday at 11:30 p.m. In Hong Kong, 11:30 a.m. On Saturday morning, in London. Join us for that.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VAUSE: Yeah, Jon, it's not exactly a position of strength when you complain about not getting enough time during your debate, is it?
MANN: It isn't. And, you know, Carson is really, at this point -- I think you've heard people say it tonight. People are expecting him to drop out. He's been an odd entry. No experience or time. He was very popular as an outsider. He's popular with evangelicals. That will help him in Iowa. But this is not a man who had a realistic prospect of doing well in this election. His success was short lived. Now, it seems he's heading back into the ranks for as long as he's still running, that is.
VAUSE: Yeah, Jon, thank you. Jonathan Mann there.
And I spoke with Dr. Carson after the debate and I asked him specifically about how he thought he did after the debate.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARSON: I was very happy with it, yeah?
VAUSE: Why was that?
CARSON: Because, you know win got an opportunity to get some points out and to make it very clear that I do know about foreign policy. Obviously, I'd like to have even more time to talk about it, but at least it dispelled some of those rumors. VAUSE: Can I ask you something? At one point in the debate, there
was a discussion between Rubio and Cruz about the NSA. You were asked to comment on essentially the collection of data, and you said, I'll leave it to them. Why did you not weigh in on that? Could you elaborate on that?
CARSON: If he had asked me what my opinion was, then I would have gone into it.
VAUSE: What is your opinion?
CARSON: But I didn't want to get into it there. My opinion is that the Fourth Amendment is extremely important and we need to make sure that we preserve it. But at the same time, we have to fight terrorism and we need to engage in a conversation with both things sitting at the top of the list. How do we create a policy that allows us to have quick access to information that will lead us to be able to prevent terrorist acts and, at the same time, preserve the privacy of the American people? You're not going to do that unless you put those two things up side by side and have that conversation.
VAUSE: Another point in the debate was when you were asked about is, if you were commander-in-chief, would you be prepared to go out and basically bomb children. You made the analogy, as a surgeon, you have to do terrible things to children to save them. Would you explain more on the comparison that you were trying to make up there?
CARSON: Well, basically, I always do something called a best/worst analysis. What's the best thing that happens if you do this, what's the worst thing that happens if you do it? What's the best thing that happens if you don't do it, and what's the worst thing that happens if you don't do it? You answer those four questions in the kind of situation you just posed, you will come up with the right answer. There may not be a perfect answer, there may not be an answer that says no one will be hurt and everybody will be happy, but there will be an answer that says only this many people will be hurt and most people will be happy. That's what you have to get to.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[02:50:02] VAUSE: Dr. Carson talking with me a short time ago.
Now, the candidates on Tuesday night's debate tackled some serious topics, but they had fun, as well.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CRUZ: I'm reminded of what FDR's grandfather said. He said, "All horse thieves are Democrats, but not all Democrats are horse thieves."
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: More on the lighter moments from Tuesday night's debate when we return. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VAUSE: Well, despite all the back and forth between some of the Republican candidates tonight, all the trash talking, there were some lighter moments during the debate showing that these guys can actually get along, kind of. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[02:54:38] CHRISTIE: If your eyes are glazed over like mine, this is what it's like to be on the floor of the United States Senate.
TRUMP: Am I talking or are you talking, Jeb?
(CROSSTALK)
BUSH: I'm talking right now. I'm talking.
TRUMP: You can go back.
BUSH: I'm talking.
TRUMP: You're not talking. You interrupted, Jeb.
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: Are you going to apologize, Jeb? No.
CARSON: They're not happy about it, believe me. And they don't like me very much at that point. But later on, they love me. Sometimes you -- I sound like him.
(LAUGHTER)
FIORINA: Margaret Thatcher once said, "If you want something talked about, ask a man. If you want something done, ask a woman."
CRUZ: And we keep hearing from President Obama and Hillary Clinton and Washington Republicans that they're searching for these mythical moderate rebels. It's like a purple unicorn. They never exist.
BUSH: I know what I don't know. I know what I don't know. I would seek out, as I have, the best advice that exists. I won't get my information from the shows. I don't know whether that's Saturday morning or Sunday morning. I don't know which one.
(LAUGHTER)
CRUZ: If I'm elected president, we will secure the border. We will triple the Border Patrol. We will build a wall that works and I'll get Donald Trump to pay for it.
(LAUGHTER)
BUSH: This is a tough business to run for president.
(LAUGHTER)
TRUMP: I know. You're a tough guy, Jeb.
BUSH: It is.
(LAUGHTER)
BUSH: And we need to have a leader that is --
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: You're tough. You're real tough.
BUSH: You're never going to be president of the United States by insulting your way to the presidency.
TRUMP: I'm at 42 and you're at 3. So, so far, I'm doing better.
BUSH: Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter.
(CHEERING)
TRUMP: So far, I'm doing better.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VAUSE: CNN's special coverage of the U.S. Republican presidential debate will continue in just a moment with Errol Barnett and Rosemary Church at the CNN Center.
I'm John Vause, live in Las Vegas. Thanks for watching.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
