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Christians Flee Persecution in Middle East; Bernie Sanders Leading in Campaign Contributions; Stocks Jump After Market Open; Black Lives Matter: Activists Say Mall of America Protest Still On; Panthers Banning Baseball Bats on Field. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired December 23, 2015 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:30:00] CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: The Christians in Syria, in Iraq and other places?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: First we are asking for your prayer because your prayer help out us. We would like to live our lives normally like others in this world. We would like to live our lives as -- in peace because we haven't seen peace since we born. And we would like to live in dignity because we lost our dignity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: I was so moved by Sister Van (ph) that it got me thinking about how fortunate I am to be able to celebrate my faith as I choose. I wrote an op-ed about it called "Finding Jesus Everywhere, Even in a War Zone." I hope you check it out at cnn.com/opinion.

So what is the United States doing about Christian persecution in the Middle East? Is there anything the United States can do? With me now, CNN terror analyst Peter Bergen and CNN military analyst General Mark Hertling.

Welcome to both of you.

PETER BERGEN, CNN TERROR ANALYST: Good morning.

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Thank you, Carol.

COSTELLO: Good morning.

The numbers are stark. According to Catholic Charities, in 2006, before the U.S. invaded Iraq, there were 1.2 million Christians in Iraq. Today, there are just 250,000. So, general, will Christians ever be able to really return home?

HERTLING: Carol, what I would say is, yes, they will. And this story was very moving to me because I would -- I think those individuals and the -- and the nun you were talking about are from a little town called Karakosh (ph), which is just about 30 kilometers southeast of Mosul. It was a town I visited several times when I was stationed in commanding forces in northern Iraq. It's very close to the town of Sinjar, which we've all publicized. It has all the Yazidis. So these are various religious sects that had been persecuted first by al Qaeda, now by ISIS. They will return home. It's a beautiful community with convents. They've been there for thousands of years. It's a Christian community with an abbey and convent and very strong people, as you saw in your interview. Yes, they will return home. They have been persecuted in the past, as have others throughout the Middle East. Coptic Christians, Asyrians (ph), Caldians (ph), Marinights (ph), all the various blends of Christians have all seen this kind of persecution and all they want to do is go home and practice their religion.

COSTELLO: They do. They do not want to come to the United States. They definitely want to go home.

Peter, the nuns I talk with, they fled to the Kurdish controlled areas of Iraq because the Kurds are fighting ISIS, but what if the Kurds fail?

BERGEN: Well, you know, I think, you know, General Hertling's right, I mean all refugees want to return home. They've, you know, but, you know, the problem is, of course, is that we know that the Syrian civil war can go on and the Iraqi civil war can go on for a very long time. You know, the Iraqi civil war is already in its 12th year arguably and it doesn't show any signs of letting up. The Syrian civil war in its fifth year and it doesn't seem to be letting up at all either. And, you know, unfortunately, the United States is taking, you know, a tiny number of refugees from Syria and Iraq. We've taken 1,900 so far from Syria. There are plans to take 10,000 more. So, you know, it's a -- it's a very, very difficult situation. You know, the refugees that are fleeing these conflicts may end up, you know, in refugee camps and the surrounding countries for a very long time, Carol.

COSTELLO: So, general, again specifically, I mean, you know, Muslims who don't practice their religion as ISIS wants are persecuted too. Hundreds of thousands of them have died. So I know that there's a battle going on in Ramadi right now and Iraqi forces are trying to overtake that city from ISIS. But that's just -- even if they accomplish that, it's just such a small thing in a much larger war.

HERTLING: Yes, it is, Carol, and this is all, as the Arabs say, shway (ph) shway (ph), step by step, inch by inch, it will happen. There will be a regaining of dignity for all of these people of different religions and different beliefs in this country. It's just going to take a very long time. As you said, we're in the 14th year. And Karakosh, the city we talked about a minute ago, has been attacked several times and yet the Christians have come back there. There are Christian blocks they call them, the Christian areas in both Mosul, which I'm sure has been destroyed now with beautiful churches, and Baghdad. This is biblical territory. Abraham was born in this vicinity. The note -- Noah's ark was built allegedly on Mounts Sinjar. So all of these things have not only Muslim influences, but also Christian and some even Jewish influences and there's a Jewish corridor (ph) in Mosul as well, which I'm sure has been destroyed.

COSTELLO: Yes.

HERTLING: This is what happens. And I think it's a warning. And we've got to pay close attention to this because we're seeing indicators of this in our country. This is a warning to people who say different religions, different races or creeds should be shut out or repressed. This is not what the dignity of man is all about. We have to help the Iraqis and the Syrians regain it in their countries and we certainly can't lose it in ours.

[09:35:19] COSTELLO: And, Peter, that's why it's so frustrating to many Americans that America supports Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia is not tolerant of other religions. So I mean I understand why the United States needs Saudi Arabia as an ally, but it's frustrating.

BERGEN: Well, yes, I mean -- but, you know, the U.S./Saudi relationship began, you know, right around the time of the discovery of oil, which was in -- Standard Oil's first contract with Saudi was in 1932. And, you know, and, you know, we don't import a huge amount of oil from Saudi Arabia relatively speaking, but Saudi did sit on the largest oil reserves in the world so they can effectively set prices. And right now they're acting very much in American interests. They are not, you know, closing down the taps which would raise the price of oil. Look at the price at the gas tank right now, Carol. It's at historic lows. That, of course, benefits the American consumer.

So the fact is, is that relations between countries are not like relations between friends based on, you know, common interests and real friendship. They're based more on, you know, how can country A help me and how can country B help me. And on the other hand, you know, Saudi Arabia has propagated Wahabizm (ph) around the world, which is intolerance of other religions, and that is something the Saudis, you know, have to do some deep thinking about.

COSTELLO: All right, I have to leave it there. Thanks to both of you for a wonderful conversation.

Peter Bergen and General Hertling.

HERTLING: Merry Christmas to you.

BERGEN: Thank you.

COSTELLO: Merry Christmas.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, for forty (ph) years, a mock election in Illinois has boasted 100 percent accuracy in picking who the next president is. So, who do they say the next president is this time around? We'll talk about that, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:40:20] COSTELLO: Bernie Sanders is burning the competition when it comes to campaign donations. The Democratic hopeful says he now has had 2.3 million individual campaign contributions, all of this without a single dime coming from a super PAC. Last night, Sanders name dropped another top Democrat, showing just how impressive it all is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT), DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: That is more contributions that have come into a campaign than any campaign in American history up until this point. So Obama did very, very well in both 2008 and 2012. At this particular point, we are doing better. We do not have to be dependent on large corporations or the wealthy and the powerful. We can run a campaign based on contributions averaging $30 a piece from the middle class and working families. So that's pretty revolutionary and I am proud of that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Despite Hillary Clinton's dominant poll lead, her camp appears worried, sending this e-mail to supporters after Saturday's debate. Quote, "I don't know how else to say it except by saying it, we could lose the nomination. The other candidates on that stage last night would like nothing more than for our team to sit back and relax right now, but I'm not taking anything for granted and you can't either. I need your help."

The icing on the cake for Bernie Sanders, though, well, maybe, a mock election that hasn't been wrong in 40 years declares he, yes, Bernie Sanders, will be our next president.

With me now is Rick Hardy, director of the Centennial Honors College in Western Illinois University. He also co-created this rather reliable mock election.

Welcome, sir.

RICK HARDY, DIR. OF THE CENTENNIAL HONORS COLLEGE WESTERN ILLINOIS UNIVERSITY: Well, thank you, Carol. It's an honor to be on your show this morning.

COSTELLO: Thanks for being with me. So tell me about this mock election. Who votes? How is it done?

HARDY: Well, actually I've been doing the mock elections since 1975 or so. It started at the University of Iowa, then for 30 years at the University of Missouri. I came back to Western Illinois University, my alma mater, and that's when we did a campus-wide mock election and we simulate everything from the Iowa caucuses all the way to the Electoral College vote. It's truly a campus-wide simulation. And we started in 2007. And our students selected Barack Obama. And a lot of people thought that was unrealistic, but it turned out to be right on the -- on the mark.

COSTELLO: So you say you have a 100 percent success rate. So besides Barack Obama, what are your other success stories?

HARDY: Well, we had, at Western, is when we've been doing this. We had, in 2007, we try to do it one year before the actual presidential election. And then we did it in 2011. He won re-election over the Republican team of Romney and Ryan. How about that for accuracy?

And then this time I don't know how accurate it's going to be. Certainly the students selected Bernie Sanders over Hillary Clinton in the Democratic side. And on the Republican side, maybe unrealistic, they selected Jeb Bush, although that was a brokered convention. COSTELLO: Oh.

HARDY: That was a brokered convention and he won over Donald Trump. And nobody actually got the majority vote. We had to go with a -- we had to go with the plurality on that. (INAUDIBLE) matter of time.

COSTELLO: Interesting.

HARDY: So -- yes.

COSTELLO: So your students think it will be a brokered convention on the Republican side?

HARDY: Well, the Republican side, they had a devil of a time selecting all of the candidates. I think Trump did very well. Why did -- why did Jeb Bush do so well, Carol, you might ask, is because he sent in a video clip promoting Western. We had an outstanding group of student leaders, particularly their campaign manager, and they were able to pull together a coalition.

Now, I don't know whether that is going to hold true in the long run, but, Carol, you might also note that some of the candidates -- we didn't think some of the candidates like Bobby Jindal and Gilmore and Pataki, the students long ago saw that they were going nowhere, so they gravitate towards the more -- the more credible candidates as it was.

COSTELLO: Interesting. OK, so let's center on Bernie Sanders for just a second.

HARDY: Sure. Yes.

COSTELLO: Because you say this might spoil your perfect record, that the students might be wrong in this case. Where do you think that?

[09:44:36] HARDY: Well, Carol, let me say, I thought they were going to be wrong with Barack Obama in 2007. I mean think about that. Think about the fact that that time everyone thought Hillary Clinton was the odds-on favorite to win the nomination and the presidency. What I found out in 2007 is that Barack Obama appealed to young people and Hillary didn't even get very much traction among the feminists on the campus, which is a signal that, you know, some -- she has to be very careful.

Same thing this last year in 2015, this -- in October, she failed to get a lot of traction among young people. Bernie appeals to them. And I think part of it is my generation grew up thinking capitalism and entrepreneurship is the way to go. Their generation is hearing about social justice. And when Bernie Sanders talks about free education, free college education and universal health care, it strikes a chord with a lot of students who are struggling to get through school. So don't underestimate his appeal there.

COSTELLO: I'm not and I hear you, the only thing is the appeal of Barack Obama was two-fold, right? They liked his policies, but he was a transformational candidate in their eyes and that excited them enough to go to the polls and young people notoriously do not go to the polls.

HARDY: Well, you're right about that, but we have an old saying in politics. There is no substitute for experience unless you're 19 years old. That's because 19-year-olds will help you with campaigns. They will canvas, they will do phone banking, do a lot of things to help candidates get exposure out there. And you're right about their voter turnout. I think with the Democrats this year, they will have to do well among young people. I think they are. Bernie is doing particularly well.

But I might also add that on the Republican side, even though Jeb Bush did not win on our mock election, he still got a lot of the popular vote. He was much closer than the electoral college vote indicated.

And final thing I'll say, Carol, in this is that ours is an exercise to teach students about the process. We engage thousands of students across the campus. We had students from music, art, ROTC, economics, agriculture. It was about the process and if it comes out that we end up predicting, perhaps successfully, that's an after thought. So our main concern is the process.

COSTELLO: You're a good man, Rick Hardy. Thanks so much for being with me.

HARDY: Appreciate it. Thanks.

COSTELLO: Still to come in the NEWSROOM, despite legal efforts to keep them out, protesters say they're heading to the Mall of America. But not everybody can show up. We'll talk with one Black Lives Matters organizer who was barred from today's protest.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:50:36] COSTELLO: All right. Could we be in store for a Santa rally? The Dow's, well, it's not exactly going crazy, but it's going in the right direction. Christine Romans is here to talk about that.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Yesterday, too, it was up 166 points. You recall last week it was pretty ugly. It's been eight days of triple-digit moves one way or another. So ho ho ho or maybe no no no. No one's really quite sure.

But what's happening today is you've got oil prices stabilizing and that's what's really important here. There's been a crash in the oil market. So now that you have stable oil prices, it's good for the energy stocks. Energy stocks are a big part of the S&P 500. So that's holding in there.

There's also this feeling that portfolio managers heading into the end of the year positioning into the end of the year trying to figure out where they want to be. The Dow and the S&P, those are markets right now, the Dow and S&P frankly are lower now for the year. That hasn't happened since 2008. There's only been one year that they've been flat. We've had such a great rally since 2008. So this year was definitely a pause in the markets. There's some feeling if you've got oil prices stable, you could have some buying heading into the end of the year.

But I would not bet your bottom dollar on what's happening today is what's happening next week because it's going to be a little crazy. You know, there's going to be a shortened day tomorrow, no trading on Friday. And then next week is another -- the last week before the new year. So make sure you're diversified. Maybe we'll rally a little bit here. But nice to see this, at least, above 17,500.

COSTELLO: I'm sure many people will be rushing to the phone to diversify on this day before Christmas Eve.

ROMANS: Yes. Or rushing out to buy gift cards because you forgot to do your Christmas shopping.

COSTELLO: No, I have mine done.

ROMANS: Do you really?

COSTELLO: Yeah.

ROMANS: Good. I do, too.

COSTELLO: Ha ha. All wrapped, ready to go. We are awesome.

ROMANS: I know. Next year -- that's the first year in like five that I've been ready. So I'm ready.

COSTELLO: OK. And your kids will be happy about that. Christine Romans, thanks for stopping by.

ROMANS: You're welcome, Carol.

COSTELLO: In a matter of hours, Black Lives Matter says it will be protesting inside the Mall of America, this despite legal efforts to keep the organization out. A Minneapolis judge ruling yesterday to uphold the mall's restraining order against three protest organizers. But the court ultimately decided it could not stop the entire chapter of Black Lives Matter from going into the mall. The group tweeting this after that court decision. "Mall of America's latest over-the- top waste of taxpayer money to silence free speech has failed miserably. See you tomorrow."

With me now is one of those organizers barred from the protest, Michael McDowell. Welcome, Michael.

MICHAEL MCDOWELL, ORGANIZER, BLACK LIVES MATTER MINNEAPOLIS: Thank you for having me.

COSTELLO: So why did the judge single you out?

MCDOWELL: It's because, you know, the exposure we've been getting in the media, the folks who have been doing interviews, who's been posting on social media the most, I think they've just been going off of who's been most active in the public eye.

COSTELLO: Well, you were part of the protest last year at the Mall of America and you were arrested, right?

MCDOWELL: Actually, I was not arrested. I was just charged. There were 25 folks who were arrested that day, but the 11 organizers who were charged, we were never actually apprehended and arrested.

COSTELLO: Yes, you were charged with trespassing and later the charges were dropped. But the protests closed down the Mall of America for, what, two hours.

MCDOWELL: Yes, it did.

COSTELLO: OK. So this time around, even though the court has barred you from protesting again at the Mall of America, you're going to go?

MCDOWELL: So myself physically, we're not putting that out publicly whether the three of us who have been barred, myself, Miski, and Candice, if we're going to go, but we're just making it known that this was a terrible, you know, failure by the Mall of America to try to control free speech and try to dictate, you know, how we can exercise our First Amendment rights. So we're looking at this as a win because we can't physically be there, but, you know, Black Lives Matter is still going to show up at the mall.

COSTELLO: So did this whole court procedure stir up even more interest among protesters?

MCDOWELL: I believe it did. Because I think it just blatantly showed, you know, how far corporations will go to try to silence, you know, free speech and peaceful protesters. So I think ultimately it just got folks more riled up and built more support for Black Lives Matter.

COSTELLO: And just a final question because business owners are concerned, they make lots of money at this time of year. It's their livelihood. They count on that, right? So is your organization's mission, again, to shut down the mall for a period of time?

[09:54:57] MCDOWELL: I mean, that's honestly like hasn't been our mission. We didn't shut down the mall last year. That was law enforcement, you know, cops showing up in riot gear, inciting violence, and ultimately shutting segments of the mall down themselves because they said they thought we were going to loot and steal. But as you can see last year with the protest, it stayed very peaceful, nonviolent and we were able to get our message across.

COSTELLO: We'll check it out later this afternoon. Michael McDowell, thank you for joining me.

MCDOWELL: Thank you for having me.

COSTELLO: Still to come in the NEWSROOM - you're welcome. He held up a sign asking for an NFL job. Find out which team took him up on his offer and just signed wide receiver Joe Anderson. Andy Scholes is here next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COSTELLO: Carolina Panthers' head coach Ron Rivera is taking a verbal

shot at the NFL, and he says his team will not be bringing baseball bats to the field anymore.

CNN's Andy Scholes -- what a wise man.

ANDY SCHOLES, CNN SPORTS ANCHOR: Yes. We're talking about NFL football, we're also talking about baseball bats. How do these two go together? Well, the Panthers this season, they brought a baseball bat on the field before the game for motivation as a symbol to remember to play hard, but they're not going to do it anymore. Because according to multiple reports, Odell Beckham Jr. says he felt threatened by the Panthers players pointing the bat at him. There's also some reports out there that Panthers players directed homophobic slurs at Beckham before the game, which got him so upset. Now Panthers Coach Ron Rivera, however, said those reports are false, just someone's attempt at spinning control to kind of say why Beckham was acting the way he was. Now Rivera also said his team is -- just to avoid any more conflict -- not going to bring the bat on the field again.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RON RIVERA, PANTHERS HEAD COACH: To avoid the situation's set of circumstances, let's just eliminate it. That's what we're going to do. I mean, again, it's the "No Fun League" for a reason.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHOLES: Now, Beckham's appeal of the one-game suspension will be heard today. The Giants play at the Vikings on Sunday.

And you might remember this next story. This is Joe Anderson, a month ago he stood outside NFL stadium holding up this sign that says, "Not homeless, but starving for success."