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Coalition Looking at Rules of Engagement; U.S. Officials Ban U.K. Muslims from Flight; NBA Players on Gun Violence. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired December 24, 2015 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:29:50] BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Colonel Warren talked about this. He was very clear that this is going to be a decision that will be very difficult.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COL. STEVE WARREN, SPOKESMAN, OPERATION INHERENT RESOLVE: As we apply additional pressure on the ground, as our Iraqi and in the case of Syria, some of our partner forces there in Syria -- as they pressure this enemy, it forces ISIL -- it forces them to move. Now when they move, they expose themselves. We're able to bring some devastating air power against them.

What's being talked about out there is how much tolerance we should have for civilian casualties. And that's part of our American values, right? We say that we bring our values to war with us. So, this is a difficult discussion.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STARR: Difficult discussion. I will tell you that to a person, every U.S. military person will tell you that the U.S. only launches air strikes when it is as certain as it can reasonably be that civilians will not be killed.

But again, we talk about a difficult decision. They will also tell you if they had the leader of ISIS in their gun sights, if they knew exactly where el Baghdadi, the leader of ISIS was. Would there be more tolerance for an air strike if potentially there were civilians in the area.

This is a behind-the-scenes look at some of the very difficult decisions that the administration is talking about right now -- Carol.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Barbara Starr, reporting live from the Pentagon this morning. Thank you.

For more on this I want to bring in Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt. He's the former assistant secretary of state for political and military affairs under President George W. Bush. Welcome, sir.

BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. ARMY: Sure.

COSTELLO: I would like you to listen to Colonel Warren from Baghdad describe how Iraqi troops are fighting in Ramadi. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WARREN: We've spent a year training the Iraqi security forces. We've trained almost 16,000 Iraqi soldiers now. We've also equipped them with modern U.S. equipment. So this training and equipping program has absolutely brought their capability level, their confidence level, their morale -- it's all beginning to come up.

And then, of course, there's nothing like winning, you know. The Iraqis have had some good success. They liberated Tikrit. They've liberated Baiji, they've liberated parts of the tha Haditha corridor on the northern part of the Euphrates River. So with victory and with success comes added confidence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: General, do you agree with his assessment?

KIMMITT: I really do. Steve Warren has been there for quite some time. I think he has got a pretty good sense of where the Iraqi troops are right now with regards to Ramadi.

My concern is as the Iraqi army shifts their focus up to Mosul, the second largest city in Iraq, if they're going to be able to be as successful in that city as they were in Ramadi. It's important to note that in Ramadi they primarily use the special operations forces and some of the police forces -- a limited number of troops.

They're going to have to use the larger number of standard Iraqi Security Forces if they're going to take Mosul. And we can only hope that, in fact, those 16,000 troops that Steve mentioned are as capable in Mosul, which is a much larger city than they have been in Ramadi.

COSTELLO: And, you know, the way ISIS is fighting is just so nasty. They're using IEDs in a different way. They're using cluster bombs, for example, they'll plant these IEDs in houses. And when the Iraqi forces move closely, the whole house will blow up. How do you navigate that?

KIMMITT: Well, this is not unique to Iraq. We saw that in many wars -- in Vietnam, the Russians used that technique successfully against the Germans at Stalingrad. And the way you react to it is you're very meticulous, you're very slow and you're very precise as you go house to house, block to block.

Everybody would like to see Ramadi taken in the space of two or three days. That operational patience that the Iraqi military is showing I think is doing two things. Number one, it's keeping their soldiers' casualties at a minimum; and number two, it's keeping the casualties of the civilians at a minimum as well.

COSTELLO: Let's talk about civilians because I know that U.S. forces, they drop these pamphlets telling people to leave the city when they're planning some sort of bombing raid, right? But sometimes when civilians leave ISIS-controlled areas, ISIS will kill them so some civilians are afraid to leave.

KIMMITT: That's exactly right. It's the dilemma that's faced by any civilian that is inside enemy-held territory, especially the type of enemy that you're talking about in ISIS. In more conventional wars when you have a reasonable enemy civilians are seen by humanitarian law as off-limits and need to be protected by both sides.

ISIS is not demonstrating that care for civilians. In fact, they leverage the civilians to their advantage and use them in many cases as human shields.

[10:35:07] COSTELLO: I know. And it's tough. So when, you know, the U.S. talks about changing its strategy when it comes to casualties on the ground, what does that conversation sound like?

KIMMITT: Well, two things. Number one, Steve Warren mentioned that we bring our values to war. In fact, in the past, United States has fire-bombed cities such as Dresden and used atomic weapons against Nagasaki in Japan.

I think the real issue is that this can be used in the narrative when we start -- if we were to start killing more civilians in these bombing runs, it would be used as a recruiting tool, as a narrative, to draw more foreign fighters back into the fight.

So, there's a moral responsibility that we have to minimize the number of civilian casualties. There's also a practical reason why we want to keep civilian casualties at a minimum so it's not a recruiting tool for more fighters to come into the battle.

COSTELLO: Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt, thank you for joining me this morning, sir.

KIMMITT: Sure.

COSTELLO: Still to come in the NEWSROOM, the Muslim family detained at a British airport now speaking out. Who is the father blaming, in part, for canceling his vacation to Disneyland?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: The Muslim family detained at Gatwick Airport in London is breaking their silence. This week U.S. officials refused to let the Mahmood family fly to Los Angeles for a planned holiday. All 11 family members were turned away at the gate. The father says Donald Trump is partly to blame.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[10:39:57] MOHAMMAD TARIQ MAHMOOD, MUSLIM FATHER DETAINED AT AIRPORT: I definitely think Donald Trump's theory did have a part to play in it because otherwise why wasn't anyone else flagged up on that flight? Just one Muslim family.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: So, what's the story? Evan Perez is in Washington with some answers. Good morning.

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Carol -- you know, this is a tough one because the Homeland Security Department says that privacy law prevents them from explaining exactly what happened here.

These people, these folks were about to get on their flight at Gatwick Airport, Norwegian Airlines pulled them out. Their luggage was already on board. They had to get it off. And now they're out more than $13,000 -- this is what they had spent to try to get their family over to California to go visit friends, family and to go to Disneyland. Here's one of the moms in this family explaining why she wanted to take this vacation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SADEL MAHMOOD, MUSLIM MOTHER DETAINED AT AIRPORT: It was either me to go private and have private health care or for my children to have two weeks of pure bliss. I decided that's what I wanted to do with the money, is to send my children away so they could have a very nice holiday and come back and feel fresh and start a New Year fresh.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PEREZ: And Carol, the Homeland Security Department, Customs and Border Protection Agency says the fact that this family is Muslim and their background is Pakistani had nothing to do with the fact that -- with why they were turned away and not allowed to board this flight.

We know that at the time they bought their ticket, six weeks or so before this flight, they went through and filled out the forms correctly. It seemed like something happened in between when they bought those plane tickets and the time they showed up at the airport to try to board the flight. Something that was done in the background checks that did not add up.

So now we know that the Homeland Security Department is going to probably have to try to explain to this family why it was that they were not able to take this vacation. I think you're going to hear more about the British government trying to intervene on their behalf, too -- Carol.

COSTELLO: So in general, why would Homeland Security prevent someone from boarding a flight?

PEREZ: Well, there's a variety of reasons, including, obviously, the big one -- the no-fly list. That doesn't appear to be the case because the fact that they were able to buy their plane tickets tells you that they were not on the no-fly list. They would not have even been able to do that.

There's a variety of reasons. The CBP, the Customs and Border Protection Agency, says that there are about 60 different reasons why you could be denied boarding, including if your paperwork doesn't add up, if you didn't disclose all your past travel, for instance, if they had trips to Pakistan that they didn't disclose in the forms, health issues, if there's a criminal background check issue. And also importantly, they tell me, officials tell me, that not all members of this family were barred. It's not clear that they were told that, though, by the airline when they were trying to board -- Carol.

COSTELLO: Ok. I know you'll keep on this. Evan Perez, reporting live from Washington.

PEREZ: Yes.

COSTELLO: So the Mahmoods say they got trumped -- a nod to the Republican frontrunner and his controversial ban on Muslims entering the United States, and Islamic extremism is likely to be a hot topic once again as the next GOP debate draws near.

And for Dean Obeidallah, that's a problem. In a column for the "Daily Beast" He writes quote, "The discussion about Islam during the two debates went from bad to ugly to Trump. It was like a UFC cage match with the Republican candidates taking turns bashing Muslims but one thing was missing in this Muslim-a-thon was a real life Muslim on the stage." And that's why Obeidallah says "A Muslim should moderate a presidential debate."

So let's talk about this with Dean. Dean -- welcome.

DEAN OBEIDALLAH, "DAILY BEAST": Thank you.

COSTELLO: Interesting.

OBEIDALLAH: I'm demanding a Muslim be on stage next time. How could they do it?

Look, the whole debate last time, literally over 50 times they said Islam or Islamic during the GOP debate. It would be like having a discussion of Black Lives Matter and not having an African-American in it. It would be ridiculous. It doesn't resonate as truthful. It doesn't give nuance to it.

And voters want to know, I think honestly my whole point is voters want to know who are just regurgitating talking points or understand the terms they're dealing with. Like they bring up Sharia, they bring up jihad, they bring up radicalization of Muslims in the west. How about having a Muslim involved in that conversation? I don't think it's asking that much.

COSTELLO: Don't the networks have to negotiate with the campaigns as to who moderates with the debates? How do you think that --

OBEIDALLAH: Well, I would love the campaigns to say, no, we're saying no to a Muslim. I mean Trump wants to ban Muslims from coming. Would he ban a Muslim from being a moderator? I don't think they would. And Fareed Zakaria from this network would be great. Suhail Khan (ph), I mentioned -- he was in the Bush administration. Or even famous Muslims -- Dave Chappelle, or I would like Shaquille O'Neal is a Muslim. I would love Trump to tell Shaquille O'Neal that he has less rights for being a Muslim. See how that plays out.

COSTELLO: Well voters say they don't want a cage match though and some of the moderators have been good at asking tough questions even when it comes to, you know, issues pertaining to Muslims.

OBEIDALLAH: I think what it comes down to, like if you have a candidate and some brought up Islamic terms. They brought up Sharia and jihad. I think moderators might not feel people comfortable pushing back on Islamic terms. While they might understand them, they might not have the nuance understanding.

[10:45:04] And again it's really for voters to assess. Are these candidates really knowing what they're talking about? You think about ISIS and how they radicalize, do you understand what Muslims in the West are going through and how they are being reached out to?

I think a Muslim on that panel who's knowledgeable, including myself, I'm out there, I work for cheap and I generally show up on time. I just want to put that out there.

No but I'm sincere. I think it will be great TV on one level. Having a person say a thing about Muslims to the face of a Muslim who's known in America and see if they back pedal a little -- would Trump backpedal slightly? But the bottom line - it's more nuanced, more info for voters to assess a candidate's understanding of these Islamic terms.

COSTELLO: I actually, you know -- after the debate, the post-debate analysis, I think, you're absolutely right, there should be somebody in there who understands these issues in a more intimate way.

OBEIDALLAH: I agree.

COSTELLO: I don't know if you're going to get a moderator, though.

OBEIDALLAH: I will settle for pre or post debate, voice involved because we frankly -- you're great. You have me on. Some networks are great. Some just leave us out. So it would be great to be part of that --

COSTELLO: I don't think that will happen on the Fox Business Network.

OBEIDALLAH: No, they'll talk about Muslims a lot on Fox but they're not going to have us on as much.

COSTELLO: Dean Obeidallah -- thanks for being here.

OBEIDALLAH: Thanks. Happy holidays.

COSTELLO: You too. Happy holidays.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I heard about a shooting involving a three-year- old girl over the summer. My daughter, Riley, is that age.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was a point when I felt that I was going to die. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My parents just always say a bullet doesn't have a name on it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Someone put a bullet in the back of my --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: A powerful public service announcement against gun violence that will soon air during one of the NBA's biggest days.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Christmas is a big day for professional basketball on television, including the highly anticipated NBA finals rematch between the Warriors and the Cavaliers. But with so many people watching, this year's games will also air public service announcements on gun violence.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[10:50:04] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I heard about a shooting involving a three-year-old girl over the summer. My daughter Riley is that age.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Guns should never be an option.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're Americans. We don't have to live like this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We can all make a difference.

CROWD: In the United States, 88 (ph) people die of gun violence every day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: The White House got behind the effort. President Obama tweeting, quote, "I'm proud of the NBA for taking a stand against gun violence. Sympathy for victims isn't enough. Change requires all of us speaking up."

Let's talk about this with CNN sports anchor, Rachel Nichols. She's covering this for us.

I was surprised that the NBA waded into this issue.

RACHEL NICHOLS, CNN SPORTS ANCHOR: Yes. It's definitely controversial. They got some blow-back about this yesterday. The NBA very clear, hey, we are not specifically advocating gun control. We're trying to address the issue of gun violence and raise awareness to it. They personalize it a little bit more. Bring it into people's lives so they realize change needs to happen.

Now, of course, the man who directed these commercials, spike lee, has a very specific message about gun control -- big advocate of that. And some of these players have as well. Carmelo Anthony in the past was involved in "Demand a Plan", a gun control advocacy public service announcement after Sandy Hook. Lebron James has just come out and flat out said after some really significant gun violence events in Cleveland, hey, people shouldn't have guns or there needs to be tougher laws on guns, so he knows where he stands.

But the personal stories are what is affecting a lot of people. You can take a listen here as to what the players said the reason they got involved.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPH CURRY, GOLDEN STATE WARRIORS: As a parent of two little girls, any time you hear of somebody not even involved in an altercation or somebody not even involved in a dispute or something, getting caught in the middle, a spray built or what have you, that hurts.

JOAKIM NOAH, CHICAGO BULLS: I remember this kid Kurt. He used to wait outside of the United Center before every game my rookie year. Three summers ago he got shot.

CHRIS PAUL, LOS ANGELES CLIPPERS: For me, it hits kind of home in the way my grandfather was murdered by five teenagers who were 14 and 15 years old.

CARMELO ANTHONY, NEW YORK KNICKS: I've seen so many of my peers, so many of my friends, you know, lose their life to gun violence. And now I'm in a situation where my voice can be heard.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NICHOLS: And that's really such a big part of it for these guys. Hey, we have some muscle here. We have some power to make a difference. And no matter where you fall on the gun control debate, the idea that you have men who are in some ways the paragon of manliness in our culture, right, professional athletes saying this isn't cool. This isn't ok. It's not macho or bravado to be waving a gun around. That speaks to something as well.

COSTELLO: I can't help but think there'll be backlash.

NICHOLS: Yes, I mean look, there are people already who have said, hey, stick to basketball. Stick to sports. The NBA shouldn't get involved in this.

But we have seen such a wider wave of athlete advocacy over the past few years. Lebron James frankly was one of the first ones to come out in 2012 when he supported the Trayvon Martin family and he came out with a hoodie and he got his entire team to take a photo with a bunch of hoodies.

And that was really running counter to the Michael Jordan example. All those years Michael Jordan wouldn't get involved in any kind of politics. He was reported to say, "Hey, Republicans sell sneakers too."

And you know, there was a wave in the 80s and 90s that hey athletes don't get involved. Of course we know the 60s and 70s we had real athlete advocacy.

And now we're seeing in this decade the start of real athlete advocacy again from all kinds of issues from gay marriage to this gun violence issue. And I think that players are seeing whether it's players doing PSAs on an NBA game or whether it's the Missouri football team, the power that they have.

You heard one of the guys there saying, hey, I'm now in a position to have my voice heard. They want to use it. Athletes are role models and they want to use that for something good, something besides just selling sneakers.

COSTELLO: I say good for them.

Rachel Nichols -- many thanks.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM -- a major hotel chain says its payment system has been infected with malware.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10L57:24] COSTELLO: Word just in to CNN that Mississippi's governor has now declared a state of emergency. We told you how hard hit the state of Mississippi was by violent weather yesterday, especially in Benton County. We understand now six people died because of the weather. 40 people are injured. And as you can see, some people's homes absolutely destroyed. Again -- the governor of Mississippi, declaring a state of emergency. We'll keep you posted.

Heads up if you're staying or recently stayed at a Hyatt Hotel. The chain says it's discovered malware in the computers that process customer payments. They can't yet say for sure if credit cards or other confidential information may have been accessed. Hyatt issued a statement quote, "We have taken steps to strengthen the security of our systems and customers can feel confident using payment cards at Hyatt Hotels worldwide."

Our business correspondent Alison Kosik has been looking into this. So how concerned should we be?

ALISON KOSIK, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Well, what's interesting is that Hyatt so far doesn't know how big this breach is, but when it found out that this malware, or this malicious software was on their computers, it went ahead, started an investigation, hired cyber security experts.

Keep in mind, it matters which Hyatt Hotel you stayed at because the data breach only affected Hyatt Hotels that are managed by Hyatt, not franchise locations. You don't know if you stayed at a franchise location or a Hyatt-managed one? The suggestion is, just call the hotel to ask.

Now, what Hyatt did do is set up 800 numbers for customers to call if you've got questions. It says it's going to post updates on its Website and the company says it has taken steps to strengthen security of its systems. COSTELLO: So, call the hotel, calm your fears, who knows?

KOSIK: There's more that you can do. You could also freeze your credit, if you're concerned. I mean completely put a lock on your credit so somebody can't open up a new line of credit under your name. You can change your passwords just in case and monitor your credit report and, of course, check your bill.

If you know which credit card you used when you stayed at the Hyatt Hotel, keep an eye on it for a while. You may want to just rip up that credit card and get a new one. That's my suggestion.

COSTELLO: Ok. We'll do take your advice. Alison Kosik -- thank you.

KOSIK: You got it.

COSTELLO: Checking some other top stories for you at 59 minutes past, Belgian police have arrested a ninth person in connection to last month's terror attacks in Paris. The suspect is identified only as Abdullah C. He's a 30-year-old native of Belgium. Police think he made contact with the niece of the ring leader of the Paris attack several times.

Convicted child molester Jerry Sandusky will soon get more than $210,000 in pension back payments. This after a judge ruled the coach's retirement was wrongfully terminated. The pension payments were cancelled in 2012 a law that allows the state to stop payments to those convicted of certain crimes. But a judge found that Sandusky committed his crimes before that law was enacted.

Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm Carol Costello.

"@THIS HOUR WITH BERMAN AND BOLDUAN" starts now.