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Deadly Storms; Battle Against ISIS; Illegal Immigration Debate. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired December 25, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:01]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks for joining us, everyone.

A new move by the Obama administration, apparently planning a series of deportation raids on hundreds of families now in the U.S. illegally. "The Washington Post" is reporting the nationwide operation could begin as soon as next month.

According to "The Post," the Department of Homeland Security is targeting Central American immigrants who came to the U.S. last year. Advocates say that these immigrants were fleeing violence in their home country. The raids reportedly will focus on adults and children who have already been ordered removed from the U.S. by an immigration judge.

Let's get over to White House correspondent Michelle Kosinski once again is traveling with the president in Hawaii.

Michelle, what more are you learning about these plans?

MICHELLE KOSINSKI, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

The White House is silent on this today. The story was leaked out in "The Washington Post." But because they're facing questions about it now, they refer us to the Department of Homeland Security. They put out a statement saying this.

"Immigration and Customs Enforcement focuses on individuals who pose a threat to national security, public safety and border security. Our border is not open to illegal immigration. And if individuals come here illegally, don't qualify for asylum or other relief and have final orders of removal, they will be sent back, consistent with our ideals and our values."

That is consistent with how the administration has handled this. But it's confusing, because you have different instances. You had about a year ago, a little over a year ago, when tens of thousands of unaccompanied minors were crossing the border. And that puts the administration in a tough spot.

These are young children traveling without a parent. But the administration took heat from the right and the left on this, Democrats saying, why are we deporting many of these kids? Look where they're coming from, facing violence and poverty. They don't have anybody. Maybe they have a relative in the U.S. Why don't we let them stay?

But also heat in the right, saying the administration hasn't been deporting them fast enough. But now we're talking about families. OK? These are not individual children. These are people who have come recently too. And you could say, well, what about the administration's goal that they have publicized a lot that they want to deport felons, not families?

They you have used that phrase repeatedly, wanting to focus on deporting people who have committed crimes here. But we asked DHS about that. Deporting families now, doesn't that kind of go against the grain of what they have been repeating so many times in the past? And they said, well, that was really more for people who have been in this country for a while, that they want to focus the resources of Immigrants and Customs Enforcement on people who pose a threat, but for people who come more recently, like these families in question, and there are likely hundreds of them, they're fairer game for deportation.

They have gotten their day before a judge and they were ruled by that judge to not be granted asylum, to not be facing a threat at home. So, you know, from the administration's standpoint, they would be deported anyway, Kate.

BOLDUAN: Michelle, and you said that the White House is silent on this, referring you to DHS. The fact that this has very quickly already become fodder for the presidential race, candidates already weighing in, do you expect that will change? Do you expect we will be hearing from the White House on this?

KOSINSKI: I think eventually.

They're going to face questions on this from the press. And they're going to have to eventually come up with something more to say on it, at the very least more details. Keep in mind, as this leaked out now, it's just something that's in the planning stages. It's not very surprising because this is really -- it's been the stance at the administration, as I explained.

BOLDUAN: Right.

KOSINSKI: So I think what's tough now is that it comes out in this way. It kind of makes it look like it's something that's been kept under the radar. I think it can be framed that way, although there are Republicans out there who are lauding it.

Listen to this Trump -- from Donald Trump. "Wow. Because of the pressure put on by me, ICE to launch-large scale deportation raids. It's about time."

So, now the heat over immigration, you know, over this plan is coming from the Democrats. All of the candidates have weighed in. They have been critical, Hillary Clinton less so because she's supportive of the administration's stance in the past. So, I think it will be interesting to see how it plays out, as the candidates and critics and others delve more into what they think the policy should be, because nobody likes to hear, you know, families hearing about it at Christmastime, being removed, but facing violence and poverty back home.

But people don't want to hear about people coming into this county illegally either. There has to be a line drawn somewhere.

(CROSSTALK)

KOSINSKI: And for a long time, it seems like, wherever the administration draws that, the administration knows it's going to take criticism and strong criticism from one side or the other. And right now, it's coming from Democrats.

BOLDUAN: Yes. And we will see how and if the White House does respond and offer some more information about it.

[15:05:03]

But, as you said, some of this might be in the manner of how it came out, the fact that it leaked, the fact that it is leaking and coming out just right around this time, right around Christmas, right In the thick of the political season, too.

KOSINSKI: Yes.

BOLDUAN: Michelle, thanks so much.

So, Donald Trump, as Michelle was telling us about how Donald Trump was weighing in, taking credit, he's not the only presidential hopeful though responding and weighing in. Democratic candidate Bernie Sanders, he said this.

They put out a statement saying this: "As we spend time with our families this holiday season, we who are parents should ask ourselves what we would do if our children faced the danger and violence these children do. How far would we go to protect them." He goes on to say: "We need to take steps to protect children and families seeking refuge here, not cast them out."

And a spokeswoman woman for Hillary Clinton's campaign said this: "It's critical that everyone has a full and fair hearing and that our country provides refuge to those that need it. And we should be guided by a spirit of humanity and generosity as we approach these issues."

So, what could the impact be, though, of these raids, of this conversation now on the presidential race?

Joining me to discuss, CNN chief political correspondent Dana Bash, and CNN political analyst Peter Beinart. He's also a contributing editor at "The Atlantic."

Thanks, guys. Thank you so much for coming in.

Peter, we now have laid out kind of where Democrats stand, where Donald Trump is weighing in and taking credit for it as well. It sounds like, when you hear the response, at least right now, from Hillary Clinton's campaign, that she's trying to walk a fine line on this immigration, on this particular issue on deportations.

We see a Bernie Sanders. He put out a statement. It was very forceful. Do you think, in the context of this, in the middle of this race, that this could put -- force Hillary Clinton to take a firmer, a stronger position?

PETER BEINART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: The bigger an issue this becomes, the more she will have to move to the left on this, which is to be against the deportations, because, in the primary campaign, that's clearly where the energy is going to be.

But immigration is an extremely tricky issue for both parties. In the general election, Hillary Clinton will have to on the one hand mobilize Latino voters and other progressive voters who don't like the deportations. On the other hand, she can't seem as if she wants complete open borders and anyone who wants to come here can come. That would be very unpopular among the public as a whole.

And it's also always very tricky for her to break from Barack Obama. So, that is why this is a tricky issue for her.

BOLDUAN: Tricky issue. All you need to see is the response that the president gets when any of these -- on immigration. He's called the deporter in chief from the left and he's criticized for not doing enough on the right.

Dana, you noted this today. After losing 2012, the RNC, they did their autopsy, as everyone kind of called it, and declared that the party of course needed to change its tone on immigration. I don't know if obviously they wanted the tone where it has changed and moved to in this primary.

But, so Donald Trump, he shouldn't be taking credit maybe for this plan, as he said in this tweet as we're talking now. But can he take credit very squarely and honestly for the direction that the conversation has moved on immigration in the Republican primary?

DANA BASH, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: He can. He can take a lot of the credit for it within the Republican primary narrative, and discussion and debates.

Before he gave his announcement speech back in mid-June, he -- the discussion was on other issues. And that was not an accident. It was because, first of all, the people who had announced largely had talked about other issues.

But even the day before, you had the man who was the front-runner at the time, Jeb Bush, doing exactly what the Republican National Committee wanted the party to do, which is to be more -- to be softer in the rhetoric. And for him in particular, he talked about it being an act of love that these illegal or undocumented immigrants were engaging in to come to this country.

So, absolutely, that was a big part of the change in tone. And at least at the beginning of his campaign a big reason why Donald Trump kind of really captured the interest of many Republican primary voters is because they were upset about the fact that the party and the mainstream candidates weren't talking about issues like illegal immigration that they wanted to hear from.

BOLDUAN: Yes. And that came as much to a surprise of many of the candidates that were already announced and in the race already.

Dana, let's look ahead to the early calendar in 2016 and strategy in early 2016. Most of the Republicans in the field not named Trump, quite honestly, they're focusing, as they always do -- you pick a strategy. It's either through Iowa or through New Hampshire. It's pretty much the two strategies in the early states.

Marco Rubio maybe not so much, not as -- at least not as clear what his strategy is. And we're less than 40 day to go. Do you expect in the coming weeks that you're going the hear more from Marco Rubio on, is it Iowa, is it New Hampshire, that he needs to make a strong last- minute push on the ground in one of these states?

BASH: My sense in talking to people in his campaign is that he's going to try not to -- at least was until now, to not talk so much about strategy and to talk more about who he is and what he's doing and why hey wants to do it.

[15:10:03]

And that benefits him, because, look, the more these campaigns talk about their strategy, what they need to win, what they're not going to focus on, the more that puts them in a box when it comes to expectations.

And it's not just about us talking about it. It's about donors and it's about kind of the expectations even for Republican primary voters who are really engaged on watching those things and the process. So, I don't think so.

I do get the sense that the Rubio campaign is not unhappy about reports that they're really not organized in Iowa, because they think that that does benefit them when it comes to expectations if he does better, and that South Carolina -- you mentioned the first three big states.

South Carolina is fascinating primary state for Republicans to me, because, yes, you have a lot of evangelicals, you have a lot of military voters. But if you look at the past several election cycles, it hasn't gone the way of Iowa, meaning the super conservative candidate has not necessarily won.

It's been more of the establishment figure. And Marco Rubio is very much trying to play in that lane at this point, especially now that Jeb Bush is doing so poorly. So, that's why I think they're playing -- he's been in South Carolina more than any other Republican candidate. That's not an accident.

BOLDUAN: That's not an accident at all. One of the things that has been surprising and has happened in the primary is the impact that external events have had on the direction of the conversation. The attacks in Paris and the attacks in San Bernardino has shifted the conversation so strongly towards national security.

Looking ahead to 2016, what outside events, those that we know of, of course, what outside events are you looking to see you think will have the biggest impact kind on the conversation going forward?

BEINART: I would say the biggest impact to look at is what happens with the economy. The economy has been doing pretty well.

That's part of the reasons that the Republicans have focused so much on national security.

BOLDUAN: That they have been able to turn their focus there.

BEINART: Right, but also because the Democrats are not as vulnerable on the economy, because the economy has been better.

But there are a lot of people who are suggesting that the economy may take a dip. This is going to be a very, very big deal for Hillary Clinton's chances and the Republicans' chances. I think Hillary Clinton really needs the economic momentum to continue. If we start to see a slowdown, I think you could start to see the Republicans shift back to the economy if they see a vulnerability on that.

BOLDUAN: I definitely think it's a very good point.

Dana, Peter, thanks so much. Thanks for coming on. Peter, great to see you.

BEINART: Thanks a lot.

BASH: Thanks, Kate.

BOLDUAN: Thanks, Dana.

Coming up next for us, new video inside the fight to take back Ramadi, ISIS positions getting hit from the sky -- this as the Iraqi military sets its sights on another stronghold. Is a tougher fight right around the corner?

Plus, severe weather leaves a path of destruction across parts of the South. The next big weather threat is unfortunately less than 24 hours away over areas that were just hit. We have a live report coming to you.

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[15:16:18]

BOLDUAN: We're just getting word that a 6.3-magnitude earthquake has just hit a border town in Afghanistan. Social media users, they're reporting that the tremors were felt as far as India and Pakistan. Still waiting for more reports to come in. We will bring them to you as we get them.

Keeping our focus overseas, though, Right now Iraqi forces say that they may just be days away from gaining full control of the key city of Ramadi. But this final stage will be the most challenging yet. Local officials say the Iraqi army has now recaptured about 70 percent of the city.

Let me show you. This is the view from the ground today, as Iraqi troops fight their way through neighborhoods rigged with explosives. And then there's this, the view from the air. Iraq's Ministry of Defense released this video showing airstrikes targeting ISIS positions in the city.

Joining me now to discuss, CNN Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr, retired Army Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt.

Great to see you both. Thank you so much for coming in. We appreciate it so much.

So, Barbara, we have been talking throughout the day and I want to get your view on this. What's the Pentagon's view about where the fight stands to retake Ramadi and how well the Iraqis are doing? Because, of course, a lot of the focus has been on the U.S. troops training the Iraqis.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: I think, for now, Kate, they feel that the Iraqis are doing pretty well.

They have been working at it for weeks to get closer and closer to Ramadi, fighting their way through the outer neighborhoods, now approaching the city center, working their way past, as we have talked about, all of those IEDs, bombs, obstacles, tunnels, houses wired to blow up, very tough, slow, dangerous work.

But taking Ramadi back, you know, it depends whether or not they will really be able to hold it over the long term, will be able to deal with any ISIS insurgency in the city, if you will, and whether or not the Sunni fighters who come in to hold it will be able to ensure that a new round of sectarian violence between Shia and Sunni does not break out in Ramadi. That may be the real key to long-term success.

BOLDUAN: And what is -- Barbara is talking about the key to long-term success there. What will the factors be in whether the Iraqis will be able to hold that city, General?

BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT (RET.), FORMER U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND DEPUTY DIRECTOR FOR PLANS AND STRATEGY: Well, I think Barbara, first of all, laid out what it's going to take to clear it and then, to some extent, hold it. But the real issue is the build phase.

After -- you can hold it and build it. Is the Iraqi government now going to come in, put in proper governance, bring in social services, turn the lights back on, repair the houses, repair the streets, get the schools back open? That's going to be the real key.

You can put 1,000 troops in there on every block, but unless people feel secure about coming back and have a reason to come back, they won't.

BOLDUAN: And the focus now going forward, as the Iraqi prime minister has said, General, is their next target is Mosul, a very different fight, a tougher fight by all accounts.

KIMMITT: Right.

BOLDUAN: From your view, what should the U.S. role be in that fight? So far, we're talking about air support and training, yes. But when it comes to Mosul, do you believe it needs to go beyond that?

KIMMITT: Well, I really don't.

You seem to have a recipe for success that's working now, in terms of the relationship between the coalition forces and the Iraqi forces. Let the Iraqi forces lead. Let them do the tough front-of-the-spear type of fighting, and the coalition stands back, provides air support, logistics support, training.

[15:20:00]

It's a recipe that's been successful in Ramadi. I remain concerned that the number of troops it's going to take to get inside of Mosul will be far greater, and it will be interesting to see if there are enough well-trained troops to take on a city about five times the city of Ramadi, and if ISIS is going to die in place, as they have in Ramadi as well.

BOLDUAN: Barbara, is there an estimate from the Pentagon on how many Iraqi troops they believe are trained and ready to go?

STARR: Well, I would say, you know, the official estimate is in the tens of thousands. But, again, as General Kimmitt was just saying, how many really are capable, will stick with it? How many units have capable, strong commanders?

BOLDUAN: Right.

KIMMITT: Yes.

STARR: This has been one oft big problems in the Iraqi military over the last couple of years.

The commanders have not always been of the most professional caliber. That is a Pentagon assessment that they have made. So, they have been working at that too. And those are all the pieces you're going to have to have to place if you're really thinking about going to Mosul.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely.

And, General, let's say they succeed in taking back Ramadi, let's say they succeed in taking back Mosul. At that point, can Iraq and the United States declare that ISIS is on the run?

KIMMITT: Not by any stretch of the imagination. They may be pushed back inside of Iraq. In fact, the Iraqi security

forces could push them all the way back to the borders of Iraq. But to suggest that ISIS is on the run, let's be clear. We may have -- they may have lost some land mass, but they still dominate in the social media. They're still bringing thousands and thousands of foreign fighters in.

And, frankly, they're expanding their operations outside of Iraq and Syria to places such as Egypt, Libya, Beirut, Paris, and San Bernardino. So, this will be seen as a tactical success at most. But we have got quite a few years before we can say we have got ISIS on the run.

BOLDUAN: Yes. General, great to see you. Thank you so much.

Barbara, thank you, as always.

Thanks, guys.

So, ISIS' brutality does not discriminate. We all know this. Muslims and non-Muslims are targets of the terror group. Hundreds of thousands have fled Iraq and Syria at this point. This morning, Pope Francis thanked all of the countries that have welcomed refugees in.

So, what does this holy day mean for those forced to run for their lives and leave everything behind?

CNN's Sara Sidner met one of those families from Iraq now in Turkey celebrating Christmas far from home, an amazing story.

SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it's a touching story, but it's a sad story. There are so many hundreds of thousands of refugees.

BOLDUAN: That's right.

SIDNER: Many of them are Christian. And many of them are celebrating Christmas so far from home.

In one particular place just outside of Istanbul, Turkey, in Yalova Province, there's a group of Christians who came together from Iraq to remember the birth of Christ, but to also think about how one day they may be able to go home.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SIDNER (voice-over): A Christmas celebration in a land that is not their own. They fled for their lives, fearing death, but nothing could kill their faith.

Nearly 2,000 miles from Mosul, Iraq, where ISIS murderers have tormented their people, including their Muslim neighbors, these Christian refugees have found a place to celebrate the birth of their lord and savior.

"My last Christmas was in my family's house. It was me, my mom and dad, and my brother. We were all together. And we hope to be united as one family in one place just once more," she says.

But, for now, they're refugees in Istanbul, Turkey, praying and singing, a family torn apart. They sing Christmas carols in old wedding hall that has been converted into a church for Christmas. They grieve for their losses, but pray for their homeland, hoping one day to return to Iraq as proud Christians with no fear of reprisals, simply because of their faith.

They come from one of the oldest, longest-standing Christmas communities in the world, but even their priest had to flee his church there.

"What gives us patience, solace, hope is the words from the holy book, the Bible," he says. "The lord said you will face persecution, but take courage. I conquered the world."

Christianity is under siege in the very region where it was born. Iraq's Christian population used to be about 1.5 million a decade ago. Now only about half remain. Syria is even worse. Of the 1.1 million Syrian Christians who once lived in the country, about 600,000 have fled.

In the Middle East, they call themselves by many names, but Assyrians, Syriac, Chaldean, but they are all Christians.

JOHNSON RAZGIN, REFUGEE: It's sad to be far away from our country. It's sad to be far away from our neighbors, from our friends, from our families. It's not easy. But anyhow, something is better than nothing. And thanks for God that we have a priest here, that we're gathering here. I hope everything could be OK.

[15:25:08]

SIDNER: On this day, these Christians humbly offer their thanks, grateful that they have survived to celebrate one of the most joyous days on the Christian calendar.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SIDNER: And for those refugees who are in Turkey, they cannot get resident status there in Turkey. They're waiting to figure out where exactly they will go. But they know that they cannot go home for a long, long time -- Kate.

BOLDUAN: And when you say can't go home for a long, long time, it also kind of goes into fears as all of these Christians are fleeing for their lives that they're obviously taking their faith with them, and this fear that Christianity is dying in the Middle East.

SIDNER: There is a fear. And I think you will hear that from some of the refugees. You will hear that from people looking from the outside in, saying, are we seriously seeing that Christians are going to be in droves leaving the very place where Christianity...

BOLDUAN: Was born.

SIDNER: ... began, was born?

But in talking to a lot of the refugees, they can't stomach that idea. And they will say to you, we don't think it will ever die. We will be back. It's just a question of when.

BOLDUAN: Right. They are strong. They say they're going to go back, but when? And that is a huge question that no one can answer at this point.

SIDNER: Absolutely.

BOLDUAN: Thanks for bringing the story. Thanks, Sara.

Still ahead for us, what should have been a five-hour flight this Christmas turned into a 20-hour nightmare for more than 100 passengers, the airline now apologizing. That story is next.

Plus, a rare tornado spotted in California, of all places, as deadly storms tear through the Southeast, and now we're hearing of more bad weather on the way. We will have an update for you.

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BOLDUAN: The death toll from this week's --