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Wolf

Saudi Arabia Severs Ties with Iran; Armed Protesters Take over Federal Wildlife Refuge Building in Oregon; Danger Looms in Liberated Ramadi; ISIS Video Shows New Jihadi John Making Threats to West. Aired 1:30-2p ET

Aired January 04, 2016 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[13:52:42] WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Tensions right now reaching a boiling point in parts of the Middle East. Bahrain and Sudan have joined Saudi Arabia in completely cutting off ties with Iran. The United Arab Emirates has downgraded its diplomatic relationship with Iran. Over to the weekend, Saudi Arabia gave Iranian diplomats 48 hours the leave the country. This is following angry demonstrations in Iran over the weekend.

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BLITZER: Protesters threw firebombs at the Saudi embassy in Teheran, and cheered as it burned, later storming and ransacking the building. And they were furious over the execution of 47 people accused of terrorism, including a prominent Shiite cleric, Nimr al Nimr. The fear now is it can spark even deeper sectarian tensions in the region.

And joining us is CNN chief international correspondent, Christiane Amanpour; and CNN global affairs analyst, Bobby Ghosh, who is the managing editor of "Quartz."

Christiane, Iran reacted strongly, and you saw the protesters burning the Saudi embassy in Teheran. And explain the anger in Iran right now.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, you know there are two Irans. There are the kinds who will go to do this kind of the hooliganism around the embassies, and that is a total violation of international law, and total violation of the kind of immunity that diplomatic embassies and other buildings are afforded under international law. To that point, the president of Iran, Hassan Rouhani, who concluded the nuclear deal with U.S. and world powers, called it extremists, and said it was unacceptable, and sic'ed the police on them, and made several arrests, and about 40 so far according to the Iranian media.

There are two Irans, the hardliners coming from the office of the supreme leader, Ayatollah Khomeini, and then those who are trying to manage dissension in the president's office. So that's one thing.

And then you have others who are experts like Bali Nasser (ph), who tweeted, "Why did Saudi Arabia execute the cleric? Is that a clue to the Saudi policy, provoke Iran and then maintain this level of crisis relationship with Iran." You know that Saudi Arabia is so angry with the notion that Iran might be closer to the international sort of the community, because of the nuclear deal. That really flies in the face of America's gulf allies, so they are really fed up with Iran, and they say, enough is enough. So you have all of that.

And then you have the idea of the cleric who was executed, and almost nobody who is observing and studying the region believes that this cleric was involved in terrorism. And, yes, some of those convicted of the violent crimes and terrorism were executed along with him, but nobody believes that the cleric, himself, was involved in the terrorism, and they are wanting to know why Saudi Arabia decided to do it.

[13:35:] BLITZER: And, Bobby, you were in Iran, and you spent several day there, and is it possible that protesters could randomly storm the Saudi embassy, and burn it, and ransack it, if you will, unless they were getting some support from the local law enforcement?

BOBBY GHOSH, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: I think that they must have had a certain amount of the wink and the nod from the local law enforcement. Law enforcement agencies are the security agencies, and the justice ministry, are controlled by the hardliners that Christiane just mentioned, so it is one of the many facets of the two Irans.

But I have to say that across the board on my trip, and across the board, on my trip, whether they were liberals or the moderates or the hardliners, there was a lot of anger about Saudi Arabia. When I was there, the beginning of December, a lot of the anger was directed at the death of 500 Iranian pilgrims. There was a huge stampede in the hajj in Mecca, around 500 Iranians died. And there is a perception that they were treated poorly, and treated the bodies badly, so a lot of the anger was directed at that, and so this is simmering and festering for a while. The execution of Sheikh Nimr for many Iranians was the last straw.

BLITZER: And how is this going to affect, Christiane, the U.S. effort to destroy ISIS?

AMANPOUR: Well, you can imagine, Wolf, basically what you have and as Bobby said, these things have been festering between these the two countries for years, and it goes back decades, and so much bad blood are from Saudi Arabia supporting Saddam Hussein in 1980, and is so the point is that it has gone on for a long time, and Saudi Arabia is the fulcrum of Sunni Islam, and Iran is the fulcrum of Shia Islam. And so there has been this escalating battle for control, which has spun out of control in the Middle East between these two branches of Islam. We the Syrian war, and the Iraq war, and to an extent Yemen being the proxies between the two countries, and both sides on the opposing sides of the wars. And right now, the effort to deflect and defeat ISIS could be compromised if there is no meting of the minds between Saudi Arabia and Iran, who support different sides in that conflict. And so it is a big problem for the United States right now.

BLITZER: And quickly, Bobby, do you see it escalating into direct confrontation between Iran or Iranian surrogates and Saudi Arabia and Saudi surrogates?

GHOSH: I think that the surrogates will be playing a bigger and bigger role. We will see greater conflict between the proxies in places like Syria, and we're already seeing it in Yemen. It's highly unlikely that they will go into direct confrontation. It's never happened before. They always walk back from the brink of it. Everybody in the neighborhood and the international communities will be working hard to restrain them from doing that. But the places that suffer the most because of this conflict are places like Syria and Yemen in particular where they are fighting by proxy.

BLITZER: Good point.

All right. Bobby Ghosh and Christiane Amanpour, thank you.

And a note for our international viewers, Christiane Amanpour will have more on this on her show "Amanpour," which begins at the top of the hour.

Up next, armed men holed up in a federal building. We will hear from the leader of the occupation to find out why he's there, what he plan to do if the police move in. Stay with us.

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[13:42:33] BLITZER: There's a serious situation brewing in southeast Oregon right now where a group of armed men are occupying a federal building taking place at the Malneur National Park. The leader of the group is a man named Ammon Bundy, the son of Nevada rancher, Cliven Bundy, who was involved in an armed standoff with the government in 2014. But right now, Ammon Bundy is saying he is there to support local ranchers and farmers.

He spoke earlier today with our Sara Sidner and accused the federal government of stealing the land for profit.

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AMMON BUNDY, RANCHER: The federal government understands where wealth is generating and they are being very aggressive in taking that wealth and Benefiting for themselves.

SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The Federal government, of course, would say we are doing this for the people of America, and you are breaking the law. Are you going to stay here and for how long?

BUNDY: We will stay here until we have secured the land and the resources back to the people of the county, and where they can get back to ranching, and get back to logging, and get back to using these lands without feeling fear and intimidation.

SIDNER: What about armed resistance? Are you willing to have a gun battle with the federal government?

BUNDY: I hope it does not come to that. I hope that it does not come to that.

SIDNER: But you are willing?

BUNDY: Well, if they are -- the only reason why that would happen is because they, again, are the aggressors. We are threatening nobody.

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BLITZER: All right. Joining us, our law enforcement analyst, Tom Fuentes, a former FBI assistant director.

Tom, law enforcement, they could go in, the government, and remove the people inside by tear gas and a number of things. They haven't done that yet. Why?

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, I think they're going to try to negotiate a peaceful settlement. Bundy and his followers have gone in there with guns, with big guns, and they are looking at this as possibly a very violent confrontation, and in the meantime, try to negotiate it. But the demands that Bundy is making are never going to be upheld by the government. They are not going to give the land back to the local counties or the local ranchers. And this is how it is going to be. So how long they want to occupy that place is another question.

BLITZER: Texas Senator Ted Cruz, who is another Republican presidential candidate, said that the individuals who took over this refuge are breaking the laws. Listen to this.

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[13:45:00] SEN. TED CRUZ, (R), TEXAS & PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Every one of us has the constitutional right to speak our minds, and protest, but we don't have a constitutional right to use force and violence and to threaten force and violence on others. And so it is our hope that the protesters there will stand down peaceably, that there is not a violent confrontation. And our prayers are with those in law enforcement that are risking their lives right now that they be safe. But there is no right to engage in violence against other Americans.

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BLITZER: So strong words from Ted Cruz. But the FBI could go in there and get the job done if they want to. And they will give it some time to talk, to try to talk reason to the individuals, but they could go in there and remove them if they wanted to.

FUENTES: Yes, absolutely. No local militia or coalition of the militias can outgun the American government, and you can do that all of the way up to the military assets, the National Guard and the FBI. They won't be able to do that. And Ted Cruz is exactly right, it is illegal, and they should not be doing it. They could do a violent response to this, but I think that they will try to reason and give the guys a chance to give up. But the idea that Bundy is claiming that the government has no right is just not true. Under imminent domain, the government can take private property and reimburse the owners and say it is now private property for the greater good. The interstate highway system was built that way.

BLITZER: And we will see what charges these individuals are facing once this whole incident is over with. I assume the federal government will being filing specific charges against them.

Thank you, Tom Fuentes, for that analysis.

Coming up, we have exclusive pictures from inside of the war-torn city of Ramadi in Iraq, and the sobering images that you will see only here on CNN.

Plus, a possible successor to the militant terrorist known as Jihadi John, and this chilling new ISIS video that contains a new warning to the West.

Stay with us.

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[13:50:06] BLITZER: A suicide attack by ISIS terrorists has killed nine Iraqi police officers in Ramadi. The bombers tried attacking an Iraqi military base Sunday, and while they didn't get past the front gate, three were able to detonate their explosives. Iraqi forces have retaken the city center but they are still sweeping neighborhoods where many remaining ISIS fighters are suspected of hiding.

Our senior international correspondent, Nima Elbagir, went inside the war-torn city.

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NIMA ELBAGIR, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): Ramadi, after months of ISIS rule, this is what remains. ISIS's occupation of the city leaving its mark both above and below ground.

(on camera): These are the Houses that the militants were hiding inside of. You can see what they were doing is they were digging up tunnels so that they were able to move from house to house without being seen by the coalition planes. And so that this wasn't spotted from the air, they were hiding the dirt that they were digging up and keeping it inside the Houses themselves.

You come through here, we can show you one of the tunnels leading through. Some of these tunnels, we're told, went as far as a kilometer.

We're going to go have a look inside. They're not actually that wide, but it does give you a sense of them moving in the dark, under the ground, out of sight. (voice-over): The city fell to ISIS in May last year. Since

then, Iraqi forces have been battling to reclaim their territorial integrity and their ravaged morale.

The head of Iraq's counterterror force told us the liberation of Ramadi should be celebrated around the world.

FIRST LT. GEN. TALIB KENARI, HEAD OF IRAQ COUNTERTERROR FORCE (through translation): Defeating ISIS in this victory has impacted on ISIS plans and its very existence, including weakness and desperation. The road to Mosel is now open and clear.

ELBAGIR: Blindfolded and bound, captured ISIS fighters face the wall. They were, we're told, attempting to blend in to what remains of the local population. A reminder ISIS fighters could be hiding in plain sight.

Even as the road to Mosel is in the Iraqi armed force's sight, a week on from the announcement of the liberation here in Ramadi, counterterror forces battle to purge the city of the remaining militants' presence.

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ELBAGIR (on camera): We're hearing some pops of gunfire there. They're a little further across the other side of the river. The fighting is ongoing. The clean up operation is still going on and that's why the helicopter is circling overhead.

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ELBAGIR (voice-over): In spite of the threat of IEDs and roadside bombs, the troops continue their painstaking push. Under every inch of reclaimed territory, a possible death. Everyone here knows so much is at stake in this claimed liberation and not just for Iraq.

KENARI (through translation): This victory is a victory for humanity because ISIS is against Iraq and against all of humanity.

ELBAGIR: It is also, finally, some palpable momentum in the battle.

Nima Elbagir, CNN, Ramadi.

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BLITZER: Thank you very much, Nima, risking her life to bring that report.

Up next, we'll stay with the fight against ISIS and a new video from a militant group that directly threatens an attack on the United States.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [13:56:34] BLITZER: Let's talk a little bit more now about the fight against ISIS. Let's bring in CNN military analyst, retired Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona; and CNN intelligence and security analyst, Bob Baer.

Bob, Iraq declared Ramadi liberated. Is this mope-up or resistance going to continue for quite a while?

BOB BAER, CNN INTELLIGENCE & SECURITY ANALYST: Wolf, the Islamic State is pretty much a guerilla force. It can give up territory, move to other locations, attack at will and I think that's what we're seeing now and the Iraqi Army simply hasn't secured the city. It was premature for this call.

BLITZER: Is it much of a challenge for the Iraqis to move beyond Ramadi, Rick, for example, try to re-take the second largest city in Iraq, Mosul?

LT. COL. RICK FRANCONA, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: I think Mosul is way down the road. First, they have to take Fallujah, secure all of Anbar Province and move north. They don't have that in place yet. As they move further north it will be difficult. It will be a long time before they set their sights on Mosul.

BLITZER: ISIS apparently released a disturbing video, men they accused of being spies for Britain. One of the terrorists directly threatens U.K. citizens. The prime minister and the British press calling him the new Jihadi John. Is the terror group pushing their propaganda right now the new threats? Are they credible?

BAER: I don't think the threats are credible. They've been threatening to attack the West and London for a long time and haven't been able to, aside from the Paris attack, aside from the Paris attack, they can't do it. The best news is they're trying to eat itself, this is pure paranoia and they'll collapse under their own violence. I can't tell you when.

BLITZER: Rick, quickly on the escalating tensions between Iran and Saudi Arabia what is the worst-case scenario from your perspective.

FRANCONA: The worst-case scenario is to get into an armed confrontation in the Persian Gulf. I don't see that happening. You can see the signs ling up, it's Sunni/Shia. We've seen Sudan break relations, Bahrain has and the Saudis have, the UAE has scaled down, so we're looking for a big diplomatic fight, and hopefully it stays at the diplomatic level.

BLITZER: How do you see it, Bob?

BAER: I see this as a new 30-years war. We'll be living through this for decades. There's no easy way to solve it, and it's not going to be done by sheer diplomacy.

BLITZER: I want to leave both of you -- we just got a new video of the new Jihadi John. Let me play this clip. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED ISIS TERRORIST: How strange it is that the leader of a small island threatens us with a handful of planes. One would have thought you'd have learned the lessons of your pathetic master in Washington.

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BLITZER: We're going to have a lot more on this late-breaking development, this new so-called Jihadi John, coming up later today in "The Situation Room."

Guys, thanks very much, Rick Francona and Bob Baer, joining us this hour.

Lots of news happening.

I'll be back 5:00 p.m. eastern in "The Situation Room."

For our international viewers, "Amanpour" is coming up next.

For our viewers in North America, NEWSROOM with Brooke Baldwin starts now.

[14:00:10] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Wolf Blitzer, thank you so much.

Great to be with all of you. Happy New Year. I'm Brooke Baldwin.