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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Examining the President's Gun Control Initiatives. Aired 12:30- 1p ET

Aired January 05, 2016 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:30:08] JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: -- but if you're going to discuss them, maybe he want these things, and help me if I am getting this wrong in any way, that if you're going to discuss them, maybe he will change his mind if he saw this ground swell of public opinion. So even within the Republican, they're first answer is, if Obama is for apple pie, the Republicans are against it. That's part of the world we live in right now. So part of it is the -- this president's for it, therefore they are against it.

But there are some levels of nuance and distinction among the republicans running for president on how to handle these issues, not so much the specifics of what the president said today but whether executive actions is the right way to go about it. Now, this president was saying there's no choice. That the republicans will give him nothing, therefore it means something to him. He has no choice but to do this. But it would be interesting to put the republicans in the room for an hour and go through the layers.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Although I have to say, it does work two ways just to talk for a second about the mental health component of this which is one of the four or five bullet points the president talked about.

First of all, it was interesting. Usually, people who are pushing for further restrictions and gun ownership just talk about the number 30 to 35,000 killed in gun violence and they don't talk about the specific fact that about 2/3 of those are suicides. President Obama ran right for that, talked about -- and even included it in a tweet earlier today, talking about that that is part of this. Because mental health is an issue where there is -- needs to do a lot of work done obviously in this country, not only because mentally ill people get guns and shoot other people, shoot innocent people as happened in a Aurora, in Sandy Hook and elsewhere, but also because they often commit suicide.

And what's interesting about that, sometimes they get asked, well, then they'll just get some other way of committing suicide, pills or a knife. And the truth is if you talk to physicians, they'll say, "Those are far less likely the work." You can save those people, often people who try to overdose on pills are not successful and then ultimately those people do survive.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Hold on one second, I want to bring in our White House correspondent Jim Acosta who's over there at the White House right now. Set the scene for viewers here in the United States and around the world who are just tuning in right now from what we just heard the main substantive point of the president, Jim.

JIM ACOSTA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well Wolf, as you were all saying I think we just saw one of the most emotional moments from President Obama during his presidency when he was wiping tears away as he was talking about those 20 children who were killed in the New Town tragedy. I think that is a moment we will hold on to when we talk about the presidency of Barack Obama long after he leaves office.

And when you talk to people inside the White House they will say he's biggest frustration during his eight years in office, seven now, almost eight years in office is this inability to do anything about mass shootings in this country. And, you know, when you talk about the darkest day in his administration, people in the administration say it was Sandy Hook. And so it was not surprising to see the president have that emotional response at that moment during these remarks here.

But Wolf, I mean, just so people understand at home what the president unveiled today is not a blanket executive order mandating universal background checks across the country. This doesn't even come close to that. You did hear the president say, "If you're on the business of selling firearms, you will have to get a license and you will have to conduct background checks for your customers and you do run the risk of prosecution if you don't do that."

But at the same time Wolf, we have to keep this in mind. The president is calling for more FBI agents, ATF agents in order to do all of these, upgrading the nation's background check system so it'll run 24/7 instead of not 24/7 which is where it is right now. It is sometimes ineffective but purchasers who go into gun stores are sometimes not getting their background checks completed right away.

And so this is an upgrading of the background check system. It's an attempt through enforcement to achieve universal background checks, but it is not a blanket background check order that goes across the country and it's certainly not a gun grab or some of the other things that you're seeing in social media. It falls far short of that, Wolf.

BLITZER: It does. All right, Jim, stand by, I want to get some more reaction to the president's address. Joining us, our CNN Political Commentator the former Obama's senior adviser Dan Pfeiffer. Also joining us, our National Security Commentator the former Republican Chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Mike Rogers.

Dan, you worked closely with the president, you were there during his emotional reaction to Sandy Hook, some of the other gun violence we've seen in the United -- we're you surprised at how emotional he got right now?

DAN PFEIFFER, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER TO PRESIDENT OBAMA: No, not at all. I have seen -- I was with the president on the day that Sandy Hook happened. I remember how it struck him as it would I think struck any parent. So this is, you know, this is very hard for him and you could -- this is why he did this because there's probably been -- if Sandy Hook -- the day of Sandy Hook was the hardest day emotionally, the most frustrating day was the day that the congress voted down universal background checks after Sandy Hook for the president. So to be able to take the step today was very important for him I think and very important for the country.

BLITZER: And the president was very, very forceful in making the case that something needs to be done to stop the deaths from gun violence. Mike Rogers, listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Dr. King's words, we need to feel the fierce urgency of now, because people are dying and the constant excuses for inaction no longer do. No longer suffice. That's why we're here to today. Not to debate the last mass shooting but to do something to try to prevent the next one.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[12:35:31] BLITZER: Mike Rogers, you are a Republican member of the House for a long time, why is the NRA, the National Rifle Association, so influential, so powerful and all of these other groups that have been formed to try to beat back the NRA, they so far had been so much less successful.

MIKE ROGERS, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY COMMENTATOR: Well, a couple of things on this, Wolf. One of the reasons that the president disappoints, I think, so many Americans is this was an opportunity to bring people together. That inflammatory language and it's designed to be inflammatory about the gun lobby. I won't question people's motives, but that horrible gun lobby, that is designed, that's language designed to divide Americans and that's what's so frustrating for me.

I was an FBI agent in Chicago, Wolf. I kicked in the doors for gangbangers in that city, went after drug dealers in that city, went after fugitives in the city, nothing that was proposed today will deal with any of that. And so, the frustration for folks like me have thought, "Hey, this is a great opportunity for the president to bring people together." There's a bipartisan mental health bill working its way through congress but they where nowhere included in this. And it is designed that way, that's what's so frustrating.

So it's not about the NRA being a strong lobby. Every time the president gives a speech on this, gun sales goes up. And so, there's a bunch of Americans out there that are very, very concerned about their ability, their second amendment rights to use guns lawfully, hunting and other things, protection. And so, what you have to do is to separate all of that.

The president missed this opportunity. He said wasn't going to be political, this shouldn't be political and then he attacks Republicans. He said he won't question people's motives and then he attacks the gun lobby, which believe me, sends people in Republican districts all over the country absolutely into orbit. Why would you do that on an issue where there is a level of consensus?

If he had taken 70 percent of what he has proposed today, and by the way this won't do a whole lot. But if he said 70 percent let's come together, let's stand together on the stage and say we're going to do these things. We're going to hire these FBI officers to do quicker background checks. We're going to engage in this discussion. America would be cheering. We would be moving the ball forward. This was not designed for that, that's why I'm so angry and disappointed of what I saw today from the president.

BLITZER: Let me let Dan Pfeiffer react to that. Go ahead Dan.

PFEIFFER: Well look, I think it would be nice if Mike was right that if he -- that there was a way to bring people together on this. He has tried that. The Republican proposal here is not do something, it's to do nothing on guns. They will never touch net position. The gun lobby position has just about every member of the Republican leadership, every presidential candidate, and so there is very limited opportunities. He is doing what he can, and look this isn't going to be stopping every mass shooting that could save every life, but it will save some and that is worth doing if you're the president of United States.

BLITZER: You want to respond Mike Rogers?

ROGERS: Yes, sure. It's just absolutely not true. Matter of fact, it was a bipartisan bill on gun -- closing some of the loopholes. And I think there's a path forward on it but you actually have to sit in the room. And Dan knows that this administration using [0:03:26] a member who tried to work with the administration, incredibly difficult to sit in the room and work it out. And that's what I'm angry about. I was in law I said -- I was a law enforcement guy kicking in those doors.

I will tell you there is a path forward on this but you have to stop the rhetoric, you have to stop this supercharged rhetoric of being political and condemning people's motives after you just said you wouldn't do that and to bring people together. There is about four or five things the president proposed today, I think you could get a huge consensus on, why not start there? Why not go from there and then start working forward in building coalitions on how you might get to another place.

But the first thing we have to the deal with, Wolf, is this huge mental health issue. What the president proposed was an afterthought and you saw him shake his finger at people by saying, "Oh well, I gave $500 billion to mental health." But we don't know what that means, and so now go ahead and get on board. That tells me he put no thought in what is the biggest component to gun violence or at least one of the biggest, 2/3 of suicides in this particular case and then the large mass shootings, about 90 percent of those come from some sort of psychosis which is being dealt with in a bipartisan bill in congress. Why not engage in that discussion in this national platform to solve that problem? It didn't happen to say that Republicans aren't engaged, I think is just wrong and it' short sided. It tells me exactly why we find ourselves in this spot where the president wants a fight on this in a presidential election year.

BLITZER: Go ahead, we are out of time, but quickly go ahead, Dan. PFEIFFER: Look, the president has worked the mental health. He will work with congress on mental health. But he has the power to do something to save lives. It won't be every life, it will be some lives and it is his morale responsibility to do that and that's what he's doing here today. He would be happy to work with republicans if they would do so in a good faith effort and they have not done that today.

[12:40:15] BLITZER: A good solid debate, Dan and Mike Rogers. Guys, thanks very much. We're going to take a quick break. Jeffrey Toobin is standing by. Is the president on safe legal ground in going forward with these executive orders to tighten gun laws in the United States? We'll take a quick break. We'll be right back.

(COMMECIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Only moments ago you saw the president of the United States at the east room of the White House get very emotional when he spoke about his new executive orders to try to tighten the gun laws here in the United States. Watch this.

(COMMECIAL BREAK)

BARACK OBAMA (D), U.S. PRESIDENT: Our unalienable right the life and liberty and pursuit of happiness, those rights were stripped from college kids in Blacksburg, in Santa Barbara, and from high schoolers at Columbine, and from first graders in Newtown, first graders. And from every family who never imagined that their loved one would be taken from our lives by a bullet from a gun. Every time I think about those kids, it gets me mad.

[12:45:19]BLITZER: Not everyday you see the president wiping away tears in a major address like this. Well, Jeffrey Toobin is our senior legal analyst.

Jeffrey, is the president on safe ground here with these executive orders? Because, you know, it was not long ago he issued a series of executive orders to keep some undocumented immigrants here in the United States to allow them to stay in the United States, went before federal courts. It's now on hold. It's now being adjudicated. He can't go forward with those executive orders. Is he on safe ground on these executive orders?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, this is a much different and a much simpler situation. Let's just remember, this is a law -- there is a law passed by congress that says if you are engaged in the business of selling firearms, you have to register and you have to do background checks with your customers. So the question is what do those words mean? What does it mean to be engaged in the business of selling firearms?

And one thing federal agencies do all the time is they explain what federal laws mean, because many laws are written at a general level. And here, the bureau of alcohol, tobacco and firearms has issued new guidance clarifying the administration position saying that if you sell guns for profit, if you sell guns that are in their original packaging, and series of requirements, you are a gun dealer, and you have to register and do background checks.

It's really a fairly modest thing. I don't think it's going to be lead to that many more people registering as gun dealers in that many more background checks, when all this drama is much more it seems about the political impact of raising this issue for the 2016 campaign.

In terms of what the president's actually doing, it's fair, it's very modest. It's legal as far as I can tell. But it is also, it's just not going to lead to that many more background checks much less a reduction in gun violence.

BLITZER: But you won't be surprised, Jeffrey, if there are lawsuits challenging the president's actions?

TOOBIN: You know, there -- this is not even a regulation that can be challenged, it's a clarifying guidance. The only way this could be legally challenged is if someone is convicted of being a gun dealer under this theory, and then he or she could challenge the conviction on the grounds that it's a violation of the law.

So this is very different from the immigration situation which was a whole series of federal regulations that can and often are challenged in court. This is just a clarification by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms that doesn't have the force of law. You'd have to wait until there was a conviction first, and then have a legal challenge.

So, you know, I think a legal challenge is very far in the distance if it's going to happen at all. But at the same time, I am not sure this is going to make much of a difference one way or another.

BLITZER: The president, Jake Tapper, he made a point, on saying, the United States stands alone among major industrialized western countries in the rate of deaths resulting from gun violence. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: We are the only advanced country on earth that sees this kind of mass violence erupt with this kind of frequency. It doesn't happen in other advanced countries. It's not even close. And as I've said before, somehow we become numb to it, and we start thinking that this is normal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: You know, a lot of his critics say he did have a chance when the first two years of the administration to get this kind of the tighter gun restrictions out of the way when he had democratic majorities in the congress, but he had other priorities at that time. That's a criticism that's been leveled against him, and you've heard that.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Sure. And in fact, if you go back and look at the reporting from the first couple of years of the presidency, it's very clear that the White House, especially then Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel, told the attorney general then, Eric Holder, to cool it, although Mister Emanuel used more colorful language, cool it on guns, when Holder was planning on some actions and the reason was that the democrats were concerned about losing the majority. There were all of these democrats from swing districts. The ones that Nancy Pelosi, then the speaker called the majority makers. And they were on the side of the second amendment activists then they were on the side of gun control.

So, yes, absolutely, and there's a lot of frustration expressed by gun control groups, like the Brady Center and others that President Obama was not doing enough. One other point about the president's remarks that I thought was interesting is he also acknowledged the fact that the laws that are often proposed, or the regulations that are clarified has happened today, that the critics often point out that it would not have stopped San Bernardino or Sandy Hook or Aurora or unfortunately, we could go on and on, and he said, that that's not the point, the point is we need to do something if even we can save one life.

[12:50:31] But one argument that we've had on my show a number of times on one discussion point is why not look at these massacres? Why not look at them and then work backwards instead of just dusting off and, that I don't mean that about today's regulation because it's different but dusting off whatever gun control measures are on the shelf and moving from there, why not look and move backwards.

And one of the reasons is, because the measures the president is pushing or ones that we'd probably have more of an effect on the violence in Chicago, on the one person killed in the drive-by, on the two people killed in an act of domestic violence in Tennessee, then, the on the mass murders that we see. But, the issue really only gets attention after something like Aurora.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: But, you know, to Mike Rogers' point which is that when you go for the huge comprehensive legislation, whether it is on immigration reform, whether it is on gun control, that's when you have the real difficulty of getting the people in the room.

And what Mike Rogers was talking about before was that some of the things that the president has proposed today, particularly on the mental illness, is actually one of those areas where a politicians on both sides have admitted including Donald Trump as you pointed out, including Donald Trump have said, you know, we need to address mental illness, and maybe that's a way to start getting people in a room, I don't want to be "pollyannish" about this. But maybe that's a way to start getting people in a room, look for areas of agreement, tackle the mental health part of this, which is such a large part of the problem, and then broaden it.

And that's you know, that's the urge to do this large comprehensive bills sometimes whether it's immigration or anything else. Sometimes it stands in the way of starting small particularly when you have such a partisan environment in congress, and then growing it out. Yes, we are in a presidential year, yes this is a big divide between the parties. But I think you know Mike Rogers made a very good point there.

BLITZER: You know, John, that we've looked at the context of the president's address that it coming in less than four weeks from the Iowa caucuses. Less than five weeks from the exactly five weeks today to the New Hampshire Primary. How does this play politically right now what the president did today?

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the interesting part is, you had even Bernie Sanders in the last few minutes issue a statement to [applied][ph][0:02:45] to the president. Bernie Sanders started with his campaign -- remember the senator from rural Vermont where gun rights are a big issue, who once was on the gun rights side of the debate, Bernie Sanders has moved quite a bit to be closer to Hillary Clinton, so he doesn't get outflanked by her.

The democrats say, thank you Mr. President, it's the right thing Mr. President, if we win, we will build on this. The republicans are saying you know it is unconstitutional you shouldn't do this by executive action. Ted Cruz is fond of saying, the constitution was not a first draft. You know the second amendment is there not to be messed with.

And so you have the polarization. The president spoke up in the presidential race which is why the president candidly said this is not going to be happen during my presidency. He knows you have a republican speaker, Mitch McConnell, the senate republic leader also [waited] saying, go away Mr. President you are politicizing this so, he e knows that. The question is can he be a central figure in this debate in the last year of the so called lame duck year of his presidency? Will he keep this conversation going? Will he stand in the middle of this? Will it be a piece of the presidential agenda when we get pass today's announcement and then in the next couple of days when people react to the president? Or will it be about the economy, will it be about ISIS?

That's what we don't know as we see here in January, is when we get through the caucuses, through the primaries and we have nominees. Is gun control, gun rights, the pieces of it, the approach to it, do you do comprehensive? Or do we start? Can you solve the trust and respect [deficit][ph][0:04:02] in Washington by doing things incrementally?

So in -- All right let's just do mental health. Maybe we'll a package on and maybe we'll leave the room. We'll make a friend or two. We'll have respect and we'll have a conversation.

TAPPER: One point on the mental health bill, there is this bipartisan bill and going through congress right now. It's offered by Congressman Tim Murphy. He's a republican and a psychologist from Western Pennsylvania. The last time we had Murphy on the show, because we talked about mental health and might show quite a bit, he said that he had reached out to Vice President Biden to try to get the administration's help because it is an area where there can be some movement. But right now the health laws are such that there is such extreme privacy measures that a parent cannot find out how his or her 18-year-old or 19-year-old is doing if that child 18 or 19 years old is a danger to himself or others because health laws, this bill would address that in many, many other things.

He went to Vice President Biden and according to Congressman Murphy, the vice president said we're really focused on gun control measures.

[12:55:10] It's just that if Murphy told me this a few weeks ago, that we're focused on gun control measures not mental health. And I mean if we are talking about opening a door and having a conversation that has to work obviously both ways.

BLITZER: The debate is -- and really going to be intensify right now. It does underscore once again the president in his final year in an office. He's got a lot of things he wants to still do. He doesn't want to go down as a lame duck right away and this is just one of the issues he's got forward.

I want to remind our viewers of we're going to have a major event here on CNN Thursday night at 8:00 P.M. Eastern and Anderson Cooper will moderate a live town hall with the president of the United States that will take place right outside of Washington, D.C.

In Northern Virginia, guns in America. President Obama's live Town Hall with Anderson Cooper that will air Thursday night at 8:00 P.M. Eastern.

Much more news coming up right after this.

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[01:00:13] BLITZER: Hello, everyone, it's Blitzer. It's 1 P.M here in Washington 9:30 --