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Mexico Wants to Ask Actors about El Chapo's Meeting; Red Carpet Golden Globes; Asia Pacific Markets Start Week With Another Drop; North Korea Gives Access to Detainees; Mexican Actress Linked to Penn- Guzman Interview; Students Return to Garissa University; Golden Globes Kick Off Awards Season. Aired 1-2a ET

Aired January 11, 2016 - 01:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[01:00:10] JOHN VAUSE, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: This is CNN NEWSROOM live from Los Angeles.

ISHA SESAY, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Ahead this hour, El Chapo surprises everyone by sitting down with Sean Penn. How a Hollywood actor was able to track down the notorious drug lord before the authorities could.

VAUSE: CNN speaks exclusively to two Western detainees being held by the North Koreans.

SESAY: And I'll take you to the red carpet at the Golden Globes as the year's best in television and film are honored.

VAUSE: It's a big night here. Hello, and thank you for joining us. I'm John Vause.

SESAY: And I'm Isha Sesay. Newsroom L.A. starts right now.

VAUSE: Well, after actor Sean Penn questioned the notorious drug lord Joaquin "El Chapo" Guzman now the Mexican authorities want some answers. They want to know where the actor met with Guzman and when this photo was taken. Guzman was on the run at the time.

SESAY: "Rolling Stone" published Penn's interview with Guzman on Saturday, a day after he was recaptured. CNN's Nick Valencia has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOAQUIN "EL CHAPO" GUZMAN, DRUG KINGPIN: I want to make clear, this interview is for the exclusive use of Kate Del Castillo and Mister Sean Penn.

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For the first time, we hear from the drug kingpin himself. Despite being on the run, the drug lord, Joaquin "El Chapo" Guzman, agrees to an interview with actor and activist, Sean Penn. A cinematic plot twist to an already surreal story.

GUZMAN: Look, all I do is defend myself. Nothing more. But do I start looking for trouble? Never.

VALENCIA: In a report for "Rolling Stone," Penn writes the pair met face-to-face in October 2015, three months after El Chapo's brazen prison escape. According to Penn, the meeting happened somewhere in the middle of a Mexican jungle and included tequila and tacos. His irrational fear of being watched by armed drones and being surprised by El Chapo's, quote, "chivalry."

VALENCIA: These clips are part of replies to follow-up questions from Penn, sent to a Guzman representative who asked the questions off- camera.

GUZMAN: Well, from the age of 15 and on, where I'm from the municipality of Badiraguato, there are no job opportunities.

VALENCIA: The meeting, Penn says, was brokered by Mexican actress, Kate Del Castillo. It was 2012 when Del Castillo reportedly developed a friendship with El Chapo after posting a series of tweets critical of the Mexican government, while celebrating the notorious drug trafficker. Del Castillo has not commented since publication of the "Rolling Stone" article Saturday night. CNN has reached out to her.

(On camera): Their communication continued over the course of the next three years, even after the 2014 arrest of El Chapo that landed him here at the Altiplano Penitentiary. They stayed in touch via Blackberry messages and letters. And it was that relationship between Del Castillo and El Chapo that eventually led to the meeting between Sean Penn and the notorious drug lord.

It was a month of backdoor dealings that included encrypted messages, disposable phones and even clandestine communications with El Chapo's associates.

(Voice-over): In a two-minute clip posted to "Rolling Stone's" website, El Chapo talks candidly about drug trafficking, violence and his role in it all.

GUZMAN: Well, it's a reality that drugs destroy. Unfortunately as I said, where I grew up there was no other way and there still isn't a way to survive. No other way to work in our economy to be able to make a living.

VALENCIA: A senior Mexican law enforcement official tells CNN they want to question both Del Castillo and Penn, specifically about the location where the meeting took place.

Nick Valencia, CNN, Almoloya de Juarez, Mexico.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE: I'm joined now on the line by best-selling author Don Winslow. His latest novel "The Cartel" is being adapted into a movie. He has studies Joaquin Guzman's life of crime and as he's moved up in the criminal world.

So, Don, what's behind the timing of Guzman's capture? Why now? DON WINSLOW, AUTHOR, "THE CARTEL": Well, you know, it's really

interesting. I think that a deal must have been cut somewhere, you know, in order for this to have happened. And what's truly fascinating to me is how an American film actor with a burn phone can allegedly find the world's most wanted man while the Mexican government can't. And that --

VAUSE: Do you buy the story that we're hearing -- sorry to interrupt. But do you buy the story from Sean Penn?

[01:05:05] WINSLOW: Not at all. It's unbelievable on the face of it, isn't it?

VAUSE: Yes.

WINSLOW: The Mexican government in the last 24 hours have said they knew about the meeting. They didn't know about the meeting and they want to talk to Sean Penn about it. So if an American actor can find the world's most wanted man, why can't the Mexican government?

VAUSE: And during the interview, El Chapo says he has killed only in self-defense. You studied the man. Is that true?

WINSLOW: No, that's total nonsense and rubbish. Listen, when his first escape in 2001, he got out and decided to rebuild his empire to basically conquer the rest of the Mexican drug world. So he started wars that have killed over 100,000 people over the course of 10 years. He has either directly or indirectly killed innocent people, children, journalists, police officers, not to mention the untold suffering his products have caused up here in the United States, Europe, and in Mexico. So the idea that this man just killed in self-defense and he's some sort of Robin Hood is outrageous. And false.

VAUSE: What impact -- what impact will El Chapo's arrest have on the drug trade?

WINSLOW: Well, you really are looking at two separate issues. First, the drug trade in Mexico, what I'm afraid is going to happen is that the drug situation will fracture again. You know, there's been the so-called pact Sinaloa, the Sinaloa peace where Chapo's organization, the Sinaloa Cartel, won that war and basically established predominance over the other cartels. So the violence has lessened somewhat. And there's been some kind of stability.

In the wake of Chapo's arrest, we'll see what happens. But my fear is that it's going to be a number of competing cartels that are going to cause more bloodshed, more chaos, more violence. The other aspect is the United States. It will have no absolutely impact on the import of heroin and other drugs into the United States. Someone will simply rise to take his place and that share of the market.

VAUSE: Very quickly, do you think he will escape again? Will he ever face extradition back to the United States?

WINSLOW: Extradition again very tricky. You know, his lawyers have already filed six injunctions against it. So it's certainly not going to happen tomorrow. I doubt very much we'll ever see him extradited because he knows too much. He has bribed, you know, thousands of people with millions of dollars. He knows where the bodies are buried. He can name names in the Mexican administration and would do so if extradited to the United States because that would be his only bargaining chip he'd have left. So I doubt we'll ever see that.

VAUSE: And will he stay in jail or will he break out again?

(LAUGHTER)

WINSLOW: Well, it depends. You know, if he has retained enough power within his organization, I expect we'll see him break out again. But what I suspect has happened is he's become more of a liability than an asset. You know, he is costing them more money than he is making them. If that's the case, he'll probably remain in prison.

VAUSE: Don, we'll leave it there. Great insight. You obviously have studied El Chapo for quite some time. We very appreciate you being with us. And we will have much more on this story later on NEWSROOM L.A. including a close look at the Mexican actress who helped arrange that secret meeting with El Chapo.

SESAY: Well, switching gears now. Switching gears now. Let's talk award season, shall we? Because it's a big night here in L.A. It was the 73rd Annual Golden Globes and a big night for the "Revenant" which received top honors at the event earning the night's biggest award.

VAUSE: The gritty film won for Best Picture Drama, for Best Director, Alejandro Inarritu and for the Best Actor, Leonardo DiCaprio.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEONARDO DICAPRIO, BEST ACTOR WINNER, "REVENANT": Two years ago, we found ourselves submerged deep in nature with all of its complications and all the beauty that it gave us cinematically. This film was about survival. It was about adaptation. It was about the triumph of the human spirit. But more than anything, it was about trust.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SESAY: Even before the ceremony started, everyone was talking about that man, Ricky Gervais. The British comedian who took on hosting duties for the night's awards and no one, no one in Hollywood was spared from the comedian's barbs.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD GERVAIS, HOST, 73RD GOLDEN GLOBES: You disgusting, pill- popping, sexual deviant scum. I want to do this monologue and then go into hiding. OK. Not even Sean Penn will find me.

I want to say something nice about Mel before he comes out. So OK. Here it goes. I'd rather have a drink with him in his hotel room tonight than with Bill Cosby.

Our next presenter is the most respected actor in the room. That isn't saying much.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[01:10:04] SESAY: He was brilliant.

VAUSE: He was drinking a beer throughout the entire show.

SESAY: Yes.

VAUSE: He was just going up and down, up and down.

SESAY: He said they just kept topping it up for him backstage.

VAUSE: Yes.

SESAY: And he apologized even before the show started to say, a lot of you will be offended. We'll see what others have to say.

But actually I was on the red carpet as the stars made their way into the ballroom. Take a look at my first time look at the star-studded event. It was a blast.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SESAY: What's it like to be here tonight?

JEFFREY TAMBOR, ACTOR: It's great because it's -- I'm proud of what we do. I mean, if I were in the stinker it would be hard, but if I were in the stinker, we wouldn't be talking.

SESAY: I have to ask you how you feel.

QUEEN LATIFA, SINGER/ACTRESS: I feel amazing. This is great. Look at this. You know? You're amongst all your peers who kicked butt this year, and I was -- I'm one of them, so it's great.

SESAY: You both look wonderful. Let me start with the ladies. Rachel --

RACHEL BLOOM, ACTRESS, "CRAZY EX-GIRLFRIEND": We got our nails done together. And --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In my trailer.

BLOOM: In his trailer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At the trailer park.

BLOOM: Yes. Not his, like, movie trailer. He lives in a trailer park. Yes. It was really nice.

SESAY: Everyone keeps telling me the Golden Globes is the funnest of all the awards.

GINA RODRIGUEZ, ACTRESS, "JANE THE VIRGIN": I'm not going to lie, having Ricky Gervais host, I am so stoked. I'm like this man is going to make us all pee our pants. Thank God, my dress is really big.

SAM SMITH, MUSICIAN: I can't wait to see Leonardo DiCaprio. He's right there.

SESAY: What do you think you'll say when you do meet Leonardo DiCaprio?

SMITH: I'll just fall to his knees or I'll just come up with a "Titanic" quote. Jack. Jack.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: Where did we get that 1970s soundtrack for that piece? It sounded like a really bad sort of, like, "Dynasty" or something.

SESAY: It's from "Dynasty."

VAUSE: Yes. I want to talk about, the red carpet is a funny dynamic. And it's funny like, the stars who stop, the stars who wave, the ones who talk and the ones who.

SESAY: Yes.

VAUSE: So what happened for you?

SESAY: So it was my first red carpet. And first of all, I realized that the really big stars come right at the end. And they also do this thing where, you know, some of the media as we were in a glut, right? And they go right to the other side of the carpet so they don't get near you. And Leo came by towards the end.

VAUSE: Your good friend Leo.

SESAY: My good friend Leo.

VAUSE: Leonardo DiCaprio, right.

SESAY: Leonard DiCaprio, who I should say is very, very strikingly good looking in the flesh. But we were all screaming at the top of our voices, Leo, Leo, Leo. And he did this wonderful brush off where he just basically ran his fingers through his nicely slicked back hair as if to brush us all off and to block the sound.

VAUSE: I can't hear you.

SESAY: I can't hear you.

VAUSE: I have to go.

SESAY: He got to go. And then he went past me.

VAUSE: It was a big night, though, for Leonardo DiCaprio. And he did give a wonderful speech when he won the Golden Globe for Best Actor in a Drama and "Revenant" of course has a big night.

SESAY: And a really big night. VAUSE: A lot of people asking, well, does this mean that "Revenant"

will go and win the Oscars?

SESAY: I think and more than that, a lot people are saying is this Leo's year to finally get the Oscar?

VAUSE: Right.

SESAY: He's been nominated many, many times. And a lot of people seem to feel that it is. And judging by the reception Leo got for winning the award, there's a lot of good feelings --

VAUSE: There's a lot of good will towards him.

SESAY: exactly.

VAUSE: Yes. I wonder if there's much good will left for Ricky Gervais. Certainly not a lot of good will to Ricky Gervais when it comes to Mel Gibson.

SESAY: No.

VAUSE: I mean, these guys seem to have a real feud going on here.

SESAY: Yes. It was uncomfortable. And it was the moment everyone had been waiting for, the moment it was announced that Mel Gibson was going to be a presenter. Many wondered what Gervais would do. And he didn't disappoint, or take it down a notch.

VAUSE: No, he didn't. But we'll have a lot more on the Golden Globes.

SESAY: It was a fun night.

VAUSE: It was fun. They always are fun. The Oscars are always a little uptight, a bit stiff and formal.

SESAY: But they drink here at the Globes. They're all drunk. They were drunk before the thing started. And they're probably rolling around Los Angeles right now as we speak.

VAUSE: Well, we're at work. And with that we'll take a short break. When we come back, after a chaotic week of trading, we'll take a look at the Asian markets as they opened this Monday. We'll have a live report.

SESAY: CNN gets exclusive access to two men held by North Korea. The details on their detention are coming up in a live report.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(SPORTS)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[01:18:33] VAUSE: Welcome back, everybody. It's been a slow start to the trading week in Asia. Let's check the numbers right now. As we can see, the Hong Kong Hang Seng down by almost 2 percent. Australia has closed low as well, down by almost 1.17 percent. The Shanghai Composite there at the top of your screen down by more than 3 percent. And the Shenzhen Composite down by more than 4 percent. So another bad day there for stocks on mainland China.

SESAY: Well, let's bring in Andrew Stevens who joins us now from Hong Kong with more perspective.

Andrew, we took a look at the numbers there. They're not pretty at all, the Asian market. Analysts saying this is largely due to fears about China's financial stability.

ANDREW STEVENS, CNN ASIA-PACIFIC EDITOR: Yes. I mean, it's more of the same really, Isha. What we're seeing today is a follow on from last week. Remember $1.1 trillion wiped off the value of Chinese stocks last year. And that misery continues for shareholders in the China markets today.

Important to note that those shareholders are Chinese. There's very little international foreign money in the Chinese markets. So that doesn't help alleviate the pain for those who are in the markets. And it is a continuation on the fears and the concerns about the authorities, can they get a grip on what's going on, on trying to manipulate the market, which is what they're doing at the moment. Very unsuccessfully.

And also what's going on in the currency, which continues to weaken the Chinese the last two days have tried to strength it. They have had minimal success in strengthening that currency. So the thinking is that there is a concern amongst the policy makers in Beijing, Isha, that the economy is weakening and they are weakening the yuan to try and export their way out of trouble. The question is, just how weak is the economy.

[01:20:15] It's very difficult to judge at this stage. But certainly if you look at the markets, there's no confidence of investors in buying at the moment. In fact, there was a quote from shanghai this morning saying there's absolutely no reason to be buying in this market, no reason for this market to be going up, at least in the short term, Isha.

SESAY: Pretty tense stuff. Andrew Stevens joining us there from Hong Kong. Andrew, appreciate it. Thank you.

VAUSE: South Korea's Defense Ministry says it is in talks with the U.S. to deploy additional strategic assets to the Korean peninsula. The talks come days after North Korea reported it successfully completed a test of a hydrogen bomb. North Korean officials say there's been an outpouring of enthusiasm in the country ever since Wednesday's test.

SESAY: But those claims have been met with skepticism abroad as well as a show of force in response. The U.S. coordinated with South Korea. The display of solidarity on Sunday, performing a flyover over the Peninsula. VAUSE: We're also following another big story out of the North.

Authorities there have given CNN access to two men detained in the reclusive country. One is a Canadian pastor and he is serving a life sentence of hard labor. North Korea claims the other is an American citizen charged with spying.

CNN's Will Ripley live in Pyongyang this hour with the details.

So, Will, what more do you know about this latest prisoner that the North Koreans say they have? Is it possible to confirm that he's an American?

WILL RIPLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, John. We have not confirmed with the U.S. State Department that Kim Jong-chol is an American citizen, although he did provide us with a U.S. Social Security number. And we will also allowed to photograph and examine his passport. And while I'm no passport expert, it looks exactly like my American passport. He even had a Chinese residency visa and multiple stamps from entering back and forth into China, which makes sense because he was -- while he is a U.S. citizen, he's been living in China as president of a company that actually operates inside North Korea in what's known as a special economic zone in the far northern part of the peninsula right by the border.

These special economic zones are basically businesses owned by foreign enemies that employ North Korean workers. And they exist so that the regime can make extra money. And so for quite a while for many years now, Kim has been commuting back and forth. And it is during these trips that he has confessed and the North Korean government has accused him of collecting information about North Korea's nuclear program and their military and then passing that information to conservative elements within the South Korean government. He says he did it by recruiting and bribing an ex-North Korean soldier.

Listen to him describe how it all works.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RIPLEY: How did it work? How did you pass on the information that you collected?

KIM DUNG CHUL, DETAINED IN NORTH KOREA (Through Translator): I bribed a local resident and had him gather important materials, such as military secrets, nuclear-related materials. I got these materials hidden in my car and secretly brought them to China where I handed them over or I would go to South Korea and deliver them directly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RIPLEY: And we have no way of knowing if Kim was speaking under any kind of duress. So we assume that our conversation was being monitored from another room in the hotel where we conducted the interview. South Korean authorities that we've been checking with call his claims groundless. And the U.S. State Department is refusing to comment or confirm if he is in fact a U.S. citizen -- John. VAUSE: And what about this Canadian citizen who is also being

detained by the North? He has been sentenced to life in prison. He also spoke with you. What has he been saying?

RIPLEY: Yes. This is Pastor Hyeon Soo Lim who has been detained here in North Korea for almost a year now. He was arrested in January of last year. He has made more than 100 trips to North Korea. But he was tending to a nursery -- a nursing home and an orphanage that his church based in Toronto had set up. And it was during that trip that North Koreans authorities arrested him. They accused him of using his religion to try to overthrow the regime here. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RIPLEY (voice-over): Thousands of miles from home, a world away from his old life, Canadian Pastor Hyeon Soo Lim lives under the constant watch of North Korean guards. No contact with his family or parishioners of his Toronto church.

The 60-year-old works eight hours a day, six days a week, alone, digging holes in an orchard. At the labor camp where he's serving a life sentence, Lim is the only prisoner. The guards wait just outside.

(On camera): How are you feeling?

HYEON SOO LIM, PASTOR & CANADIAN HELD PRISONER BY NORTH KOREAN: Fine.

RIPLEY: Are you OK? Are you in good health?

LIM: Yes.

RIPLEY (voice-over): Lim speaks and understands English, but the authorities insist he answer our questions in Korean.

[01:25:03] We assume they're listening from another room in this Pyongyang hotel.

"I wasn't originally a laborer, so the labor was hard at first," he says. "But now I've gotten used to it."

Lim says he gets regular medical care, three males a day, humane treatment by a country the United Nations says has one of the worst human rights records in the world. Allegations North Korea strongly denies.

At his trial in December, Pyongyang prosecutors argued Lim entered North Korea more than 100 times under the false pretense of humanitarian aid. They say he was really using religion to try and overthrow the atheist regime.

Lim admits to openly criticizing North Korea's leaders, a severe crime in a country that forbids political dissent. "I admit that I violated this government's authority, system and order," he says.

(On camera): Would you say your biggest crime was speaking badly about the supreme leaders of this country?

(Voice-over): "Yes, I think so." Kim says he has not been forced to study North Korean ideology. He's even requested a Bible, though he hasn't gotten it yet. He prays every day.

(On camera): What do you play about?

(Voice-over): "I pray for the country and the people," he says. "I pray for North and South Korea to be unified so a situation like mine won't happen again."

After about an hour, the guards return. It's time for this pastor- turned-prisoner to go back to a life of confinement. He never expected, but seems to accept. Lim waits and wonders if he'll ever see his family and parishioners again. He says no matter what happens, he's at peace.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

RIPLEY: I've spoken twice with Lim's family. We actually had him record a private message that we e-mailed so that they could see him in his own words and see that he appears to be healthy and in good spirits. They were grateful to the North Korean regime for allowing the interview to happen. And they also urged the Canadian government to do whatever it can diplomatically to try to encourage the Pyongyang leadership here to release Lim on humanitarian grounds -- John, Isha.

VAUSE: Will, thank you. Will Ripley live in Pyongyang on your sixth trip to the reclusive country in the last year and a half. Thanks, Will.

SESAY: Some great reporting there from our Will Ripley.

VAUSE: Yes.

SESAY: The Mexican authorities want to question actor Sean Penn about his interview with Mexican drug lord El Chapo. We'll have details on the actress, Penn says helped arranged the meeting.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[01:31:04] VAUSE: Welcome back, everybody. Thanks for staying with us. You are watching CNN NEWSROOM live from Los Angeles.

(CROSSTALK)

VAUSE: I'm John Vause. I forgot who I was there for a moment. I haven't done this for a while.

(CROSSTALK)

SESAY: The headlines this hour --

(LAUGHTER)

(HEADLINES) SESAY: Mexican police want to ask U.S. Actor Sean Penn about his meeting with "el Chapo" Guzman. Penn met with him while he was on the run. Guzman was recaptured Friday. On Saturday, "Rolling Stone" published Sean Penn's interview with the cartel leader.

VAUSE: Mexican authorities also want to question Actress Kate de Castillo. Penn says she arranged the interview with el Chapo.

SESAY: According to reports, it all started in 2012, when Castillo posted a tweet complimenting el Chapo.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RAFAEL ROMO, CNN LATIN AMERICAN AFFAIRS EDITOR (voice-over): This is the woman Sean Penn says served as link between him and Joaquin "el Chapo" Guzman. Kate de Castillo has been famous in Mexico for a long time. Americans have only been introduced to the actress in recent years. She has appeared in films like last year's "No Good Deed," a thriller about a man who escapes from prison. The 43-year-old also played a Mexican crime boss on season five of Showtime's series "Weeds" in 2009.

(on camera): After a very successful career as a soap opera actress in Mexico, she rose to fame with Hispanics thanks to her role in the series in the 2001 Telemundo series, "The Queen of the South." In the wildly popular series, she plays a woman, who through tragic and unfortunate events, becomes a drug queen, a thriller partially based on a true story.

(voice-over): She raised eyebrows in 2012 when she posted a tweet about el Chapo. "Today I believe more in el Chapo Guzman than in the governments that hide the truth from me, even though it's painful," de Castillo wrote

She later reflected on an interview on CNN Espanol that, "More than a compliment to el Chapo, her message was a criticism to the Mexican political class."

KATE DE CASTILLO (through translation): Someone like that at least we know who he is. We know what he does. We know what his profession is. The others sometimes are worse criminals and have numbed us and hide everything from us.

ROMO: After el Chapo escaped last July, she told CNN Espanol she was astounded.

DE CASTILLO (through translation): I feel very sorry about that because I always defend Mexico. First of all, I'm Mexican. I get angry when in the United States people say bad things about Mexico. I defend Mexico. But the moment comes when you can't defend that which is indefensible.

ROMO: In her roles in film or TV, she has been at odds with the law multiple times. Now after helping Sean Penn getting an interview with el Chapo, she may be in trouble for real. Mexican authorities told CNN they want to question her. Rafael Romo, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE: Under U.S. federal law, it's an offense to harbor or conceal any person whose arrest or warrant or process has been issued so as to prevent the fugitive's discovery and arrest. So does that mean Sean Penn could face legal problems of his own for meeting with one of the world's most-wanted fugitives while he was on the run?

For more, Joey Jackson is with us. He is a CNN legal analyst and a criminal defense attorney.

Joey, thanks for being with us. What's your take? Are the keys words in all this "to prevent the fugitive's discovery or arrest?"

[01:35:10] JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: A pleasure to be with you. You know, I say not so fast. Certainly, while you can argue it's morally reprehensible, we're talking about an international fugitive, someone who has exacted so much horror and infused so much drugs into the system, wanted in a variety of jurisdictions. When you are looking at it from Sean Penn's perspective, he simply had a conversation with a fugitive. That's not a crime. It's not a crime to take a picture with a fugitive. You need some type of aiding, abetting, assisting or providing of material support. From a journalist's point of view, going and having an interview and having el Chapo expand upon his life, his background, why he does what he does, I think that without more would at this point seem insufficient for criminality.

VAUSE: What if Penn was not acting as a journalist? He's going for the "Hollywood Report." He is not getting paid for the story. If you wanted, could the prosecution argue the point here he met with el Chapo as a private citizen? Could that change anything here?

JACKSON: You know, even with the meeting with someone as a private citizen, you have to examine it, and prosecutors can be as creative as they need to be or want to be. But the simple meeting alone, merely being present in a fugitive presence doesn't rise to the level of criminality. Did he materially aid him in some way? Did he assist him? Did he harbor him? Did he hinder prosecution? I think certainly there are other people who might fit that bill. Going and having an exchange, a communication, getting information -- one would argue if you are on Sean Penn's team that you really rendered a significant public service. Why do I say that? As a result of this conversation, there are many things on record from el Chapo regarding his dealings in the drug trade, why he got into it, his background. So it's quite revealing in terms of the admissions that were made. In addition to that, you could look at the way the authorities monitor the communications between Sean Penn's people and between el Chapo in order to ultimately apprehend him. So some would argue that as a result of meeting with him, actually Sean Penn provided some -- a great deal of support to the governments of Mexico and the United States in getting his capture.

VAUSE: Sure. JACKSON: But at this point, again, I know it's a big moral issue, why would he do such a thing. I don't see the legal issue.

VAUSE: I imagine Sean Penn got some pretty good legal advice before he embarked on any of this about his own exposure here, at least legally.

JACKSON: You know, you would have to think he certainly did. Now that advice certainly I think would center more on what if any obligations does he have or liability from a criminal perspective. You raise the question though -- it's a great issue in terms of what knowledge now has he come into that could potentially be helpful to the authorities. When you sit with someone and speak with them for an extended period of time, certainly, now you are possessed of knowledge and an understanding that would be useful to the authorities. Remember this, not only is el Chapo -- really has been a fugitive in Mexico, but he is wanted by multiple jurisdictions in the United States. As much as that information that Sean Penn gleamed could be helpful, now I think it's a different issue. Now he becomes or could become a material witness to the case. As a result of that, the prosecutors could attempt to compel his testimony against el Chapo.

VAUSE: We shall see. This is still going. The story is not over yet.

Joey Jackson, great to speak with you. Thank you.

JACKSON: A pleasure and a privilege.

SESAY: At Garissa University, the site of a massacre last April, is defying terror as it returns to relative normalcy.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(HEADLINES)

[01:42:42] VAUSE: Students are returning to class at Kenya's Garissa University nine months after al Shabaab militants killed 147 people, most of them students.

SESAY: There are now more police on campus since the attack. Kenya's president says the school is a symbol of resilience in the face of terrorism.

For more, we're joined by Mwenda Njoka from the Kenyan Interior Ministry.

Thank you for joining us.

Students returning to the Garissa University campus, the president hailing this moment, but what security measures are in place to keep everyone safe? What more are you doing beyond having police on campus?

MWENDA NJOKA, KENYAN INTERIOR MINISTRY SPOKESMAN: We have changed the process of intelligence gathering and security officers within the office. The government has changed -- is working towards setting up a perimeter fence around the campus to ensure intruders do not gain entrance to the campus. But the other thing that happened is that the government also has included lockers in terms of security management to the extent that there is more better cooperation between local people and security agents.

SESAY: You have taken these steps. But it doesn't seem as if students are feeling -- taking a sense of security from -- a sense of assurance from the steps you have taken. It used to have 800 students. But only a couple dozen are coming back.

NJOKA: That is true. It's traumatic for anybody who -- the parents or students who are there. We accept the fact that what happened was something very traumatic. It will take time before the university gets back to its normal position. But the fact is that we have more than 100 students who have reported back. We expect with the time more will be able to go back. Once they are sure they get confidence in the security.

SESAY: You mentioned just how traumatic it was as it played out last April. I'm going to ask you, what kind of psychological support you are offering staff and students who endured this horrible massacre.

NJOKA: We are working together with the Red Cross and various organizations. The government provided psychological support and counseling for students and parents who went through this process.

[01:45:15] SESAY: Of particular concern is the fact that -- tell me if this is true. Of those who are returning, the couple of dozen that are returning now, they are mostly local and they are mainly Muslim and that the Christian students are staying away. Is that true?

NJOKA: That is not true. What has happened is the number of Muslims are more. It's not just Muslims. If we were to allow a situation where it's only Muslims go back or Muslims in that area, we would be giving space to it the al Shabaab or the terrorists who want to turn the region into a Muslim caliphate region. There are more Muslims but there are non-Muslims who have returned to the area, both teachers, lecturers and students.

SESAY: As we mentioned, not all of the students, only a small number are coming back at this stage. What more is the government going to do to change that, to get all the students who possibly can to get back in the classroom there?

NJOKA: What the government is doing to create that sense of security and encourage them to go back. It will take time. That we agree. It will take time. It can't be an instant. Again, look at for instance when we under attack in 2013, it took time before shops and the people were operating there. It takes time before people gain confidence after such a traumatic event.

SESAY: Mwenda Njoka, with the Kenya Interior Ministry, we appreciate you joining us and bringing us up to speed on this return of students at Garissa University.

NJOKA: Thank you.

SESAY: Thank you.

VAUSE: Coming up on Monday, on "Amanpour," a special look at the pawns of ISIS's war against the West. They're young, they're vulnerable, and perfect targets for ISIS recruiters, told they are God's chosen ones. Instead of playgrounds, they see battlefields. Nima Elbagir sits down the former child soldiers who were lucky enough to escape and tell their harrowing stories of life under ISIS. "The Child Soldiers of ISIS" coming up Monday on "Amanpour," 7:00 p.m. in London, 8:00 in central Europe.

We'll be right back.

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(WEATHER REPORT)

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[01:51:35] SESAY: Welcome back, everyone. The 73rd Annual Golden Globes kicked off awards season here in Los Angeles Sunday night. Among the big winners was "The Revenant," which snagged awards for best film drama, best director and best actor, Leonardo DeCaprio.

VAUSE: Your good mate.

"The Martian" won best film, comedy because it's a side-splitting, rollicking comedy of the year. Matt Damon won best actor in a comedy.

(LAUGHTER)

Veteran actor, Sylvester Stallone, won best supporting actor in the movie, "Cree." And in his speech, he thanked a special friend.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SYLVESTER STALLONE, ACTOR: Most of all, I want to thank my imaginary friend Rocky Balboa for being the best friend I ever had.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SESAY: Very nicely done.

Rebecca Sun joins us now to talk about more of the memorable moments from this evening. She's a senior reporter for the "Hollywood Reporter."

Rebecca, welcome.

REBECCA SUN, SENIOR REPORTER, HOLLYWOOD REPORTER: Thank you.

SESAY: It was quite a reaction to Sylvester Stallone getting that award. I was surprised there was so much good will and emotion in the room for him.

SUN: I think it was the poignant moment of the Globes. I think that in a way this was -- this was his first acting award, first major acting award in his entire career. This is like a career retrospective for him, the fact that he's Rocky, the first thing that people saw him in. The fact that he took the same character -- you are seeing him from the other side of life now. People have a lot of personal memories, connections to Rocky. It was a sentimental --

(CROSSTALK)

VAUSE: The only way that speech could have been better is if he said, Adrian. This is the best --

(CROSSTALK)

SUN: If he wins the Oscar.

(CROSSTALK)

(LAUGHTER)

VAUSE: I thought it was a great moment. I thought he was awesome. I've been making fun of "The Martian" winning for the comedy.

(CROSSTALK)

VAUSE: Behind stage, Matt Damon said it's not a comedy, it's a musical --

(LAUGHTER)

-- because it's the comedy or musical section.

(CROSSTALK)

VAUSE: We can't wait for the next movie, "The Blade Runner II," which will be the hilarious sequel. Meet the parents. But seriously, how does -- I asked this before. This is purely tactics by the studio so they can pick up an award.

SUN: This is called category fraud where you look at, where do I have the best chance? "The Martina," if it has to go up against "Spotlight" will it win? I don't think so. Comedy is a less competitive field. Is it going to be -- actors do that, too, when they campaign for supporting versus leading. We saw that with "Carol." Here the Golden Globes refused to -- they were like, no. They did that. But you will see that a lot in the Oscars. People get nominated for supporting when they should be lead.

SESAY: I want to talk about one of the men of the night, Ricky Gervais. Every celebrity expressed trepidation. What did you think of him? He had some pretty sharp barbs. How do you think he did?

SUN: I think that it's really because our expectations -- we were so bracing ourselves. Everyone in the ball room was bracing. We were sort of prepared. It didn't seem as mean. He didn't seem as mean. He made the joke when Eva and America came up about Trump. But that's about Donald Trump. They were not offended.

[01:55:33] VAUSE: Did he -- he did have a good one with Jennifer Lawrence. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICKY GERVAIS, COMEDIAN: Jennifer Lawrence made the news when she demanded equal pay for women in Hollywood. She received, yeah, overwhelming support --

(APPLAUSE)

GERVAIS: -- from people everywhere. There were marches on the street with nurses and factory workers saying, how the hell can a 25-year-old live on $52 million?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SUN: It's a travesty.

VAUSE: Very quickly, the other issue is Mel Gibson. What's the back story?

SUN: It was -- well, Mel -- Ricky Gervais has made fun of Mel every -- of the three years he has been on, he has made fun of him every time, even when Mel wasn't there. He was prepared for that. The fact they had more of a bleeped-out exchange, that was a surprise. That I think was the shocker of the night.

VAUSE: OK, great. We will leave it there.

Thanks for coming in.

SESAY: Rebecca, thank you. Thanks for coming in.

SUN: Thanks, guys.

SESAY: That's it from us. You are watching CNN NEWSROOM live from Los Angeles. I'm Isha Sesay.

VAUSE: I'm John Vause. The news continues with Rosemary Church and Errol Barnett after a short break.

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