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Iranian Capture of Sailors; Iowa Polls; Nikki Haley's Speech; El Chapo Security. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired January 13, 2016 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:00:12] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Here we go. Top of the hour. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you so much for being with me here.

We have breaking news now about that confrontation at sea. The question is, was there an apology or not? Now, the United States says no, but we're about to play you new video just into us here at CNN showing one of these U.S. sailors, one of these sailors who was detained, apologizing for straying into Iran's fiercely monitored territorial waters after he and nine other Americans were captured by Iran. Of course, there are a lot of questions. Questions about whether he was coerced into that apology or saying it out of fear. Here you go.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was a mistake. That was our fault. And we apologize for our mistake. It was a misunderstanding. We did not mean to go into Iranian territorial water.

The Iranian behavior was fantastic while we were here and we thank you very much for your hospitality and your assistance.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: The Americans had been traveling from Kuwait to Bahrain when one of their two small but armed Navy boats ran into some kind of trouble, possibly mechanical, possibly navigational and it seems the Iranians accepted the explanation that this was a mistake, releasing the sailors after Tehran says that the Americans apologized. Although, again, it's unclear whether they meant, you know, that sailor in particular or, you know, coming directly from the U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry, who, by the way, is saying that - denying any sort of apology. The State Department tweeting that the claim has zero validity. You see that tweet here from the State Department spokesperson.

Joining me now, Christopher Harmer, retired commander for the U.S. Navy and senior naval analyst at the Institute for the Study of War.

Commander, thank you so much for joining me.

CHRISTOPHER HARMER, COMMANDER U.S. NAVY (RET.): Thank you. It's a pleasure to be with you, although I'm sorry to be with you under these circumstances.

I've got two immediate responses, which is, first, this is like a bad trip down memory lane for me. I spent a total of five deployments in all, several years in the Persian Gulf, and violations of Iranian airspace and water space are relatively common. I am really upset, really disappointed that the U.S. Navy sailors took it upon themselves to issue an apology. Whether they intended to or not, they are representing the United States Navy, and by that an extension of the U.S. government. So whether or not this sailor understood what he was saying, he's now on the record on video as apologizing on behalf of the U.S. government for something he had no business speaking to.

BALDWIN: He - presumably, though, under distress. You know, these are young sailors, had never been in a situation like this before. You know, if you try to put yourself in his or her - I know there was one female - her shoes -

HARMER: Yes.

BALDWIN: What would you have done?

HARMER: I would have done what I was trained to do, which is give my name, my rank, my date of birth and nothing else. Look, we are trained for these situations. And everybody will cave eventually under enough pressure. There's nobody that can hold out under all types of pressure, all types of torture. These guys weren't pressured and tortured. They were held in a room. They were asked some questions. The only appropriate response to that is, here's my name, here's my rank, here's my date of birth, here's my service number. Contact my higher headquarters, Bahrain U.S. Navy Fifth Fleet. They will offer any amplifying (ph) information.

Yes, it's obvious these guys did not intend to violate Iranian airspace. And if you're having a running conversation, a U.S. Navy ship and an Iranian ship, you can say something like that.

BALDWIN: OK.

HARMER: Once you're in custody, you have to be quiet. You have to follow your discipline. You have to follow your code of conduct.

BALDWIN: What about just the sheer images. You've seen these pictures of these sailors sort of sitting around this room, seeing them on the boat. I want your interpretation of these images and also how these images look for, you know, President Obama, who 48 hours after, you know, taking sanctions off Iran -

HARMER: Yes.

BALDWIN: The nuke deal is through, this happens.

HARMER: Well, on the substance of the issue, this is really no big deal. Anybody who's worked law enforcement or military in international waters, if you take somebody into custody, the very first thing you do is you get them on their knees, you search them for personal weapons. This isn't torture, it's not humiliating, it's not demeaning. On the other hand, in terms of the propaganda value, this is very valuable to Iran because it shows - it can show their allied countries or their allied terrorist organizations that they have the ability to take American sailors into custody and treat them this way. So, substantively, it's just not that big a deal, the fact that they were treated this way. In terms of the propaganda value, it is very damaging. In terms of the political value, everybody's going to try to use this to their benefit. Hardliners in Iran are going to try to use it to their benefit. Political, you know, machinations here in the United States.

All that stuff to me is really just sort of background noise. The real fundamental issue here is, how did the U.S. Navy put these vessels in harm's way without a plan to extricate themselves or without a plan to defend themselves?

BALDWIN: Let me -

HARMER: Really the issue here is the U.S. Navy. And there's some serious professional questions here.

BALDWIN: Hang on. Before we get to those professional questions. Just, you know, for those of us who are not familiar with these sort of delicate waters in this part of the world and you are, I mean, how - would these Americans have been given any kind of warning from Iran that they were in territorial waters? I mean I have to imagine, you know, they knew the significance of where they were and any way, you know, too far to the left or too far to the right would have been bad news.

[14:05:18] HARMER: Yes. No, you bring up a very good point, which is, the Iranians know exactly where their territorial waters end and international waters begin because they're on an island, they're not moving, they can keep their eyes on it. Sailors who are moving through on ships or on aircraft, they have a little less situational awareness. The Iranians a very aggressive, very proactive about calling American aircraft or American ships on these open frequencies and saying, hey, U.S. Navy ship, you are approaching Iranian territorial waters, change course. It's highly unlikely that these guys just wound up deep inside Iranian territorial waters without any notice. We get that all the time both from the American ships and from the Iranian navy ships. Nobody wants an inadvertent conflict. So I think the Iranians are going to try to use this as propaganda value and they're going to get a win out of it. But the real question goes back to, this is the U.S. Navy operating in the Persian Gulf. We need to know where international water ends and territorial water begins. We need to maintain our operations in international water.

BALDWIN: Retired commander Chris Harmer, you bring up excellent points and questions. We will continue to explore in further conversations. For now, thank you so much for your time, sir. I appreciate it.

HARMER: Thank you. Good day.

BALDWIN: All right, here we go. Just out today, 19 days from the Iowa caucuses, what is reputed to be the most trusted poll in the state, this is the poll that predicted Barack Obama would win the Iowa caucus back in 2008 against Hillary Clinton. And now "The Des Moines Register"/Bloomberg poll is finding the Republican race for president in Iowa is virtually tied. You see the two names on your screen, Ted Cruz and Donald Trump.

Now Cruz leads Trump just by three points. That is within the margin of error. And that was not the case just a month ago when Cruz had 31 percent and likely Republican caucus goers and a comfortable lead against Trump.

So, are Cruz's lower numbers owing to the focus Trump is giving to Cruz's birthplace? The senator's American mother gave birth to him in Toronto, Canada, prompting some question as to whether or not he would, in fact, be eligible to become president of the United States. But this poll shows Cruz's birth is mostly a nonstarter. Look at that huge number, unbothered, 83 percent. As for Cruz, he says he's avoiding targeting Trump in any kind of full on assault here. But then Cruz did say this on the radio.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED CRUZ (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think he may shift in his new rallies to playing "New York, New York," because, you know, Donald comes from New York and he embodies New York values.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let's turn now to Craig Robinson. He's the editor of theiowarepublican.com. He was the former political director of the Iowa Republican Party.

Craig, great to see you.

CRAIG ROBINSON, EDITOR, THEIOWAREPUBLICAN.COM: Great to be here.

BALDWIN: OK. So, you know, when you look at those very recent numbers, do you think the birther issue is working against Cruz in Iowa, the fact that his numbers have slipped?

ROBINSON: Well, I don't know if it's the biggest issue out there. It's definitely something that's been talked about across the state and in political circles. But I think there's other issues at play here that are going to matter more at the end of the day than where the senator was born.

BALDWIN: Well, then what do you think the reason is then in Iowa for Cruz's numbers to be more in line with Trump's?

ROBINSON: Well, I mean, number one, I mean, Cruz is still leading in the polls. He's - maybe some of the wind is out of his sails a little bit from when he was surging a month ago. But, you know, the senator was in the state for six days last week on a 28-stop bus tour and while it was - it's good to kind of comb through county by county, he was also kind of plagued with questions. Questions about, you know, his stance on the renewable fuel standard and renewable fuel issue, as well as some other issues like his position on gay marriage. And so I think as - BALDWIN: And questions about where he was born and whether he could become president. That was all part of the conversation (INAUDIBLE).

ROBINSON: And at the - at the end of the week it was that, yes, indeed.

BALDWIN: Yes. OK. So maybe all of the above knocked the wind out of his sails, to use your turn of phrase. But here, when you look at Senator Cruz, and, you know, he really hasn't full on totally targeted, doubled down on Donald Trump, because he really couches it. He sort of says, listen, I'm not going to go after Trump, but do you think it's time for a full-on Trump target from him?

ROBINSON: Well, I think this is a difficult thing for Cruz and even Trump because I think they appeal to the same type of person. And so you don't want to get - you don't want to turn off people. So you need to flake them away, but still get their support. You don't want to flake them away and then, you know, maybe they go to another candidate that could cause you a different sort of problem. So it -

[14:10:05] BALDWIN: But you want to stand out and separate yourself from the guy you're, you know, essentially tied with.

ROBINSON: Most definitely. And I think this is difficult for Cruz as a frontrunner. I think if he was a challenger, if he was, you know, behind a few points, he could be a little more aggressive and people would understand it. But, you know, the Cruz super PAC is also attacking Marco Rubio in TV ads and so they're kind of trying to play a game of keep away instead of being the aggressor.

BALDWIN: You mentioned Marco Rubio, so let me ask you about sort of these - we'll call them second tier candidates. You know, Marco Rubio has 12 percent. Ben Carson at 11. I mean folks at home watching or on your mobile devices can see for yourself sort of where they all stand. I'm curious, from your perspective, Craig, you know, what do you think these folks need to do, you know, in the next 20 days to really have a shot in your state?

ROBINSON: Well, I think they have to be here. I think that's the biggest complaint -

BALDWIN: Huh, simple as that, huh?

ROBINSON: Well - well, it is. Voters want to see these candidates. They want to be able to ask them questions and interact with them. And both of those, Rubio and Carson, have at times kind of disappeared from Iowa. So people want to see them in these final days.

BALDWIN: OK, Craig Robinson, thank you very much, editor of theiowarepublican.com. Appreciate it.

And just a reminder to all of you watching, make sure you tune in tonight. Donald Trump will be on "Erin Burnett OutFront," 7:00 Eastern, right here on CNN.

A Republican rising star telling Donald Trump to turn the volume down, but now Governor Nikki Haley considered maybe a vice president candidate getting heat from the far right. We'll discuss

Plus, fascinating new details about El Chapo. Hear what they are doing behind bars to keep him from escaping again.

And as we are all snapping up our Powerball tickets, look at this. Can you imagine if you were this group of bartenders thinking that they've got it, they've got the winning numbers? Even one quit his job. But hang on a second, because all this celebrating was for not. They had the wrong numbers with the wrong day. Oh, I know, punch in the gut. We're going to talk to the guys in charge of all of this ahead.

You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. We'll be right back.

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[14:16:28] BALDWIN: Welcome back. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley fired some powerful jabs at Republican frontrunner Donald Trump when she delivered the Republican response to President Obama's State of the Union last night. Governor Haley, as you sure well know, the first Indian-American woman to be elected governor in the deep south. And last night she never mentioned Donald Trump by name, but she left room - really no room for doubt that she was talking about Mr. Art of the Deal himself, Donald Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. NIKKI HALEY (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: During anxious times it can be tempting to follow the siren call of the angriest voices. We must resist that temptation. No one who is willing to work hard, abide by our laws, and love our traditions should ever feel unwelcome in this country. While Democrats in Washington bear much responsibility for the problems facing America today, they do not bear it alone. There is more than enough blame to go around. We, as Republicans, need to own that truth. We need to recognize our contributions to the erosion of the public trust in America's leadership.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: That was Governor Haley last night. We heard since heard from Donald Trump telling Fox News that the governor is weak on immigration and that she has had no problems asking him for campaign donations.

Let's talk it over with Republican consultant Katon Dawson, former chairman of the South Carolina Republican Party, and former South Carolina State Representative Bakari Sellers, a Democrat who supports Hillary Clinton.

So, hello to both of you in Columbia, South Carolina. Nice to see you two.

KATON DAWSON, FORMER CHAIRMAN, SOUTH CAROLINA REPUBLICAN PARTY: Hello, Brooke.

BAKARI SELLERS, FORMER SOUTH CAROLINA STATE REPRESENTATIVE: Hi. BALDWIN: All right, Katon, first up to you. You know, after Governor Haley spoke last night, you know, she was immediately getting heat from staunch conservatives with her response. Are you in that camp?

DAWSON: No. I think the tone was right. You know, it's time for some sensible conversation in the Republican Party, when you can have it, about what the future is going to look like, the future of the party. Certainly Governor Haley, with an 80-something percent approval rating in South Carolina, what she says matters in this primary. And a lot of Donald Trump supporters are Nikki Haley supporters. So I don't think that the conservatives are going to be upset the way Nikki had it. I think I've seen them applaud the tone that she took in the response to the nation last night.

BALDWIN: Bakari, how'd she do?

SELLERS: Well, for me, I looked at it in two ways. One, it was ironic that I'd never seen a speech, a State of the Union response, in which Democrats, like Denis McDonough today, the White House chief of staff, actually came out and applauded Nikki Haley and the Republican frontrunner was taken to task in that speech. So it was a bit ironic.

And the other point I wanted to make is that Nikki Haley, last night, gave a speech that was absent any policy or political depth whatsoever. However, today we have to applaud that speech because it wasn't wrought with xenophobia or any type of hatred or divisiveness, which has been the bar set by Republican frontrunners today. So I - Nikki Haley's a friend of mine. We've both from Bamberg County, South Carolina. We're both pretty country. And so I was just - I was proud of her on the national stage.

BALDWIN: Well, your country aside - you know, your countryness aside, I think the fact, though, that Denis McDonough sort of supported it may not bode well if you are fighting for -f or a - from a Republican perspective, but dually noted.

Let me play some sound. This is Governor Haley this morning talking to Don Lemon after her response.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: I think I want to start with that sound bite. You said the loudest voices in the room. Was that comment directed at Donald Trump?

[14:20:05:00] GOV. NIKKI HALEY (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: Partially him, but a lot of people. You know, a lot of what I was talking about was, we've seen across our country, if you look at places like Ferguson and Baltimore, we are seeing that people feel like they have to be loud, they have to be angry to get their voices heard. And, you know, look to the example of South Carolina. When we had the shooting of Walter Scott, you know, it was a time when we could have had that. But instead, we got together and two months to the day passed the first body camera bill in the country.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BALDWIN: I mean, I don't have to remind the two of you what, you know, your state endured last year. I was just in the Mother Emanuel Church Monday, you know, where those nine, you know, amazing people were murdered. So there was that last year. And also the removal of the confederate flag.

And so, Bakari, you know, knowing that, adding to how she sort of rose to that occasion and her response, do you think she's positioning herself as a potential running mate for any of these Republicans?

SELLERS: Well, I think it's two-fold. First, in Charleston, I mean it's - I would be remiss if I didn't mentioned that those nine people, they weren't killed by a meteor or something strange that happened. They were killed simply because of their race. And Nikki Haley failed to mention that so she could fit her narrative. But is she positioning herself to be vice president? Probably so. But the question is, and I firmly believe that Nikki Haley is going to have a future in this country in national politics, but do you want to hitch your horse to Donald Trump? Really? I think that's the fastest way to nowhere. And so I'm not her adviser by any stretch, but if Donald Trump were to call me to ask me to be vice president, I'd tell him I'm moving to Canada.

BALDWIN: OK. Well, let me show you my shocked face knowing your politics there.

Katon, I want you to jump on that. What do you think she would do if he were to be the nominee, but in general?

DAWSON: I like Bakari, but there's a safe bet nobody's calling him for advice in the Republican primary, nor the vice presidential pick.

BALDWIN: I think you're right.

DAWSON: At the end of the day, Nikki Haley is a very unique popular governor, just like United States Senator Tim Scott. Both different, both nominated by Republicans in South Carolina. There will be about 650,000 people voting in this primary.

Brooke, what will happen, and Bakari hadn't touched this, the endorsements will matter in South Carolina, much more so than Iowa and New Hampshire. Iowa's going to get in the rear-view mirror pretty quick. New Hampshire will win in the field. What Donald Trump needs is a pretty big field here. But you're going to see the whole (INAUDIBLE) land in the South Carolina and Donald Trump's pretty strong right now. So we'll see what happens with the endorsements that come up shortly.

BALDWIN: Katon Dawson and Bakari Sellers, thank you two so much.

SELLERS: Thank you.

DAWSON: Thanks, Brooke.

BALDWIN: All right, coming up next, revealing personal text messages purportedly from drug kingpin El Chapo shortly before he was caught. Did he have any idea who actor Sean Penn was before their secret meeting? Plus, extreme measures Mexican prison authorities are taking to ensure he doesn't escape capture for a third time.

Plus, would you drink this? Not iced tea. Folks in Flint, Michigan, say this is what is coming out of their faucets. The governor now under fire, now calling in the National Guard to help fix this month- long crisis. We have a live report for you on that. Stay with me.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:27:26] BALDWIN: There will be no third escape for drug kingpin El Chapo Guzman. At least that is what Mexican officials are insisting. Prison guards at Altiplano Maximum Security Prison will soon beginning moving him from cell to cell. Keep in mind, this is the very same facility from which he escaped last July, slipped in through that hole in the shower stall. Yes, crafty, right? That then connected to an elaborate underground tunnel network. This time the Mexican government doesn't want him in any one place very long enough to develop any kind of escape plan. That's what they're going for apparently.

CNN's senior Latin American affairs editor Rafael Romo is joining us with more on that.

Can you talk - well, I guess I kind of understand, they're keeping him moving so he can - no one can be digging a hole maybe in one certain spot. Is that sort of the thinking behind this?

RAFAEL ROMO, CNN SENIOR LATIN AMERICAN AFFAIRS EDITOR: Yes, that's exactly right, except that if you remember he was able to either have bought off or -

BALDWIN: Yes.

ROMO: I'm sorry, he was able to buy out or -

BALDWIN: Help from the outside.

ROMO: Threaten with death most of the prison guards. So that's how he was there. But he - there's also the army there, the federal police, as well as an x-ray machine through which every car going through the prison has to go, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Wow. OK. Leaving no stone unturned, literally, I suppose.

We are also learning more about this relationship between El Chapo and the Mexican actress Kate del Castillo. They texted each other.

ROMO: Yes. These messages are quite revealing regarding the kinds of communications between the Mexican actress and El Chapo. Apparently they developed this kind of friendship over the years. And I want to show you one of those text messages where it becomes apparent that El Chapo didn't really have any idea who Sean Penn was. Let me read it to you real quick, Brooke. He says - and this is communication through the attorney, he says, "she wants to bring actor Sean Penn, one of the most recognized Hollywood actors. She says that Mr. Sean Penn has a very relevant message and would like to deliver it personally." She goes on to say - El Chapo now talking. He says, "let her bring him in and if she wants to bring more people with her, let her do so. Let her do as she pleases." That gives you a good idea, Brooke, as to how much El Chapo admired or was infatuated with this Mexican stress and apparently she was the one that Sean Penn used to get close to El Chapo.

BALDWIN: Quite a comfort level, "let her do as she pleases." The most wanted man on the planet.

Rafael Romo, thank you. Thank you so much.

[14:30:02] Coming up next, we have to talk about this water crisis in Flint, Michigan. We've been reporting on this. Folks, it's getting worse. Now the governor of Michigan is calling in the National Guard. Are people who've been exposed to this water at risk?