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Michigan Water Investigation; Sean Penn's Life in Danger?; Debate Winners and Losers. Aired 15-15:30p ET

Aired January 15, 2016 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:03]

DR. L. EUGENE ARNOLD, OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY: a great question. The coloring has no value, other than cosmetic. It's only to make the food look better. The problem is that, if one company uses it, and their food looks more attractive, it forces the others to use it also.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Top of the hour now. I'm Pamela Brown, in for Brooke Baldwin on this Friday.

And we begin with breaking news on Wall Street. The Dow has plunged nearly 400 points in a brutal trading day. The year's rough start on Wall Street seems to be getting worse.

A short time ago, it was down about 500 points.

So let's take a look right now at, as we said, 363. And it seems to be changing as the day goes on.

(STOCK MARKET UPDATE)

BROWN: Turning to race for the nation's next president. neck and neck in the Iowa polls, Donald Trump and Ted Cruz go after it, center stage at the Republican presidential debate in South Carolina.

So, I guess it's official now. The gloves are off. It's game on. Even Trump said -- quote -- "I guess the bromance is over," after he went after Cruz's birth in candidate to an American mother, and Cruz targeted Trump's New York values.

Preliminary ratings show more than 10 million people tuned in, and in case you didn't see it, here are some highlights.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think most people know exactly what New York values are.

QUESTION: I am from New York. I don't.

CRUZ: What -- what -- you're from New York? So you might not.

(LAUGHTER) CRUZ: But I promise you, in the state of South Carolina, they do.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We rebuilt downtown Manhattan, and everybody in the world watched and everybody in the world loved New York and loved New Yorkers. And I have to tell you, that was a very insulting statement that Ted made.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

CRUZ: You're an American, as is everybody else on this stage, and I would suggest we focus on who's best prepared to be commander in chief, because that's the most important question facing the country.

JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Everybody on this stage is better than Hillary Clinton. And at the end of the day we need to unite behind the winner so we can defeat Hillary Clinton, because she is a disaster.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

TRUMP: And we don't need a weak person being president of the United State, OK? Because that's what we'd get if it were Jeb -- I tell you what, we don't need that.

(BOOING)

TRUMP: We don't need that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Clearly, the crowd was very into it.

And joining me now to discuss all of this, CNN political commentator Michael Smerconish, host of CNN's "SMERCONISH" on Saturday mornings, and chief political analyst Gloria Borger.

Thank you so much for coming on.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Sure.

There were some real fiery moments at last night's debate, especially between Trump and Cruz.

Gloria, observers are saying that this is the best debate performance from both Donald Trump and Ted Cruz. Do you agree with that?

BORGER: I think it was the best debate performance for Donald Trump. I'm not so sure about Ted Cruz.

Ted Cruz was taking incoming on his birth issue. I don't think he put that to rest. He got off a couple good lines about this, making it very clear that Donald Trump once thought his birth was not an issue, and now that he's gone up to the polls, Donald Trump suddenly thinks it's an issue. [15:05:02]

And I think Cruz did not do well on the New York values answer. He got booed from the audience there, and I think he turned Trump into a sympathetic figure. And if you scratch the surface, I mean, here's Ted Cruz, whose wife used to be employed by Goldman Sachs, which, last time I checked, was a New York-based investment firm. So what are New York values in their family?

BROWN: Well, and it's interesting, too, because he actually clapped when Trump came back after him, right, and said, look, I have seen what values are after 9/11. He clapped.

And talking about the birther issue, Michael, speaking of not putting that issue to rest, as Gloria said, New York Mayor Bill de Blasio just told our Ashleigh Banfield that he thinks the Supreme Court should weigh in on what natural-born means. Let's take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL DE BLASIO (D), MAYOR OF NEW YORK: I think we do need an answer. I just think, to get this whole issue off the plate of American political life, it plagued Obama for years unfairly.

But I think a single, ultimate definition by the Supreme Court would be very helpful, because the Constitution is somewhat vague.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So if Cruz's debate performance didn't put this issue to rest, what will, Michael?

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I would be curious to know -- and, of course, there's no way to know -- would Mayor de Blasio made that statement relative to Ted Cruz today but for Cruz's comments about the Big Apple in the debate last night?

My hunch is, de Blasio probably would not have concerned himself with it, but takes umbrage, correctly, at what Ted Cruz said about New York values.

I agree with Gloria that Ted Cruz did not put this to bed, but I don't think there's anything he could do to put it to bed. And when I speak of putting it to bed, I really don't mean the legal aspect. I mean the political aspect. I don't think that Donald Trump is seeking to have Ted Cruz knocked off the ballot on this basis. I don't think that's possible.

But he has been successful for the last two-and-a-half weeks now of controlling the news cycle and forcing Ted Cruz on the defensive. So he's been very effective in that regard. And you look at the poll numbers in Iowa, you can't help but notice that they have narrowed since Donald Trump brought this up.

So I would say it's a very effective political strategy. I don't think it's a legal strategy. And the final thing I will say is that nothing stops Donald Trump from seeking a declaratory action himself. So, if he really believed that this were a viable legal issue, he'd do something about it.

BORGER: But that's not what he does, right, Michael? He just throws it out there and says, oh, well, I didn't really want to raise this, but...

SMERCONISH: People are asking me.

BORGER: Oh, yes, my friends are calling me, right?

(CROSSTALK)

(LAUGHTER)

BORGER: As he always talks about, those friends who are always on the phone.

And there's a way to put it to rest. And it's not going to happen, but there's a way to put it to rest, which is to bring it to a vote in the Senate. And remember when there was some kind of an issue with John McCain because he was born in the Panama Canal zone, there was a vote in the Senate. That was of course after McCain had been nominated, but because Ted Cruz doesn't have an awful lot of friends in the Senate and because John McCain has raised questions about this and Ted Cruz, I don't think anybody is going to do that any time soon.

BROWN: Very interesting.

Michael, you had a very robust reaction, should we say, to conservative commentator Hugh Hewitt on "NEW DAY" saying that the -- quote -- "fact-checking doesn't matter in the presidential debate."

Hewitt said it was about a leader's aura. That's what people are focused on.

What got to you specifically about that comment to get you so riled up about it?

SMERCONISH: I think last night, in watching the debate, there was a particular exchange with Governor Christie in which he said that he had never written a check to Planned Parenthood.

I myself tweeted at an individual who has covered him like no one else, Matt Katz, and I said, Matt, what are the facts on this? And in the blogosphere, people were then reminded that Governor Christie absolutely had made statements in the past. "The Star Ledger" reported on it, saying that he'd given his own money to Planned Parenthood.

So in my analysis of Governor Christie's performance last night, I said the fact-checkers have their work cut out for them. Hugh's response was that fact-checking doesn't matter. I will simply say, I sure hope that he's not right. I would hate to think that truthiness does not apply to this presidential race.

Perhaps he's correct, but I hope that's not it.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Go ahead, Gloria.

BORGER: In these debates, everybody throws everything at everybody else, even if they know that their opposition research is sort of only half-true. Right?

They throw it because they know that the time you have to respond is so minuscule, so I think fact-checkers have a really important job, because people throw everything out there just to get it in the ether. Right? And it's our job to check the facts. And I go back to the days -- remember Bob Dole, when he said to Bush, stop lying about my record, whatever it was?

It's important. And if somebody is lying about your record, you ought to clarify it and not lie about your own.

[15:10:01]

SMERCONISH: Well, there was something said at the end of the debate last night which was really interesting, when Senator Rubio went after Senator Cruz and laid out a number of flip-flops, and then the retort from Cruz, I think, Gloria was to say, well, half of those things may be what you...

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: At least half of those things. Really, but what about the other half?

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: I could just talk with you all day about this.

Gloria Borger, Michael Smerconish, thank you so much.

SMERCONISH: Thank you.

BROWN: And be sure to watch "SMERCONISH" tomorrow morning at 9:00 Eastern right here on CNN.

Meantime, Sean Penn, he is breaking his silence over his controversial interview with El Chapo -- why he says he's at risk and in the crosshairs.

Plus, a family claiming to have won the Powerball jackpot reveals it on "The Today Show" before even telling lottery officials. I will speak with a lawyer who says this is the worst thing they could have done.

And sources tell Iran they told the American sailors to act happy during their detention. But it doesn't stop there.

We will be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:15:23]

BROWN: Well, actor Sean Penn is breaking his silence about his controversial secret meeting with Mexican drug lord El Chapo Guzman. Penn he wrote a lengthy expose about the meeting for "Rolling Stone" and it was released the day after Guzman was captured.

Although Penn and El Chapo met last October, Mexican officials told reporters that this meeting was -- quote -- "essential for locating and capturing El Chapo."

Now, today, Penn is calling that an absolute myth.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEAN PENN, ACTOR: We know that the Mexican government, they were clearly very humiliated by the notion that someone found him before they did. Well, nobody found him before they did. We did -- we're not smarter than the DEA or the Mexican intelligence. We had a contact upon which we were able to facilitate an invitation.

CHARLIE ROSE, CBS NEWS: Do you believe the Mexican government released this in part because they wanted to see you blamed and to put you at risk?

PENN: Yes.

ROSE: They wanted to encourage the cartel to put you in their crosshairs?

PENN: Yes.

ROSE: Are you fearful for your life?

PENN: No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: All right, I want to bring in Michael Vigil. He's a former DEA chief of international operations and author of "Deal."

Mike, thanks for coming on. First off, should Sean Penn be fearful for his life?

MIKE VIGIL, FORMER DEA AGENT: I think that Sean Penn and Kate del Castillo, the Mexican actress, should in fact be fearful for their lives.

I'm very familiar with Chapo Guzman, very familiar with the cartel that he heads, which is a very violent, vicious cartel. They have been responsible for thousands of killings. And they do not forgive, they do not forget. And if Chapo Guzman believes that they were responsible for his capture, there will be reprisals. And the one that is probably most vulnerable is Kate del Castillo, who is originally from Mexico, and one of the things that the cartels do is if they can't get to, for example, del Castillo, they will go after her family.

BROWN: And let's talk about del Castillo. We're getting some new information in about her company. She has this brand of tequila and now we know that Mexican authorities are investigating whether El Chapo actually provided any funding to that business venture. Could Castillo face some legal consequences here?

VIGIL: Well, there's always that possibility, but I don't know if they provided material support, received economic aid from Chapo Guzman, but I don't think that by mere virtue of the fact they went to Chapo's hideout in the mountains of Sinaloa and met with them would not lead to any judicial action or criminal action against either Penn or del Castillo.

BROWN: And Penn is claiming that this was all about sparking a national conversation about the failure of the war on drugs. Let's listen to what he said about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PENN: We are the consumer. Whether you agree with Sean Penn or not, there's a complicity there. And if you are in the moral right or on the far left, just as many of your children are doing these drugs, just as many. And how much time have they spent in the last week since this article came out talking about that? One percent?

ROSE: You're saying there's not much dialogue about...

PENN: My article failed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So, was that naive of him, Mike, to think that this was going to spark this national discussion on the war on drugs, when he's doing this expose on the most wanted man in the world?

VIGIL: It's very naive. It's very naive, because you have to keep in mind a lot of these Hollywood types, they live in a cocoon that does not deal with a lot of reality.

The issue here was that Penn and del Castillo were interested in fame and fortune. They wanted to do a movie on Chapo Guzman that would sell heavily in many countries, to include the United States, and that was their motive, funding and fame.

BROWN: Look, but I -- I think he probably had some motive to draw attention to this problem of the war on drugs. I don't think it's all because he wanted fame and fortune. Sean Penn has enough fame and fortune as it is.

Do you think he made somewhat of a fair point, though, in saying, look, even if El Chapo is captured, that the war on drugs will still continue, as El Chapo said himself? Or the drug problem, I should say, not the war on drugs.

[15:20:15]

VIGIL: Well, here's the issue, is that the capture of Chapo Guzman is a great symbolic moral victory.

But the work for the Mexican government starts now, because they have to attack the infrastructure of the Sinaloa cartel in order to make an impact. And what I mean by the infrastructure is they have to go after their assets. They have to go after the corrupt political officials that are providing the protection to the cartel, and then to -- I don't look at it as waging a war on drugs, because all drugs have an end.

And I think that, when it comes to drugs, it's more of a permanent campaign, until we do away with the consumption that we have here in the United States.

BROWN: All right, yes, the demand plays a big role in that. Michael Vigil, thank you very much.

VIGIL: It's my pleasure.

BROWN: Up next right here in the NEWSROOM, were laws broken by elected leaders in Flint, Michigan's water crisis? The state's top lawyer now launching an investigation amid claims that city and state officials ignored complaints and even lied to residents about water laced with lead? I will speak live to someone who helped break this story up next.

Plus, the story behind that apology video made by American sailors. Find out what their Iranian captors were telling them to say on camera. We will be back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:25:50]

BROWN: Well, CNN has learned Michigan's attorney general is opening an investigation into the Flint water crisis. He wants to know if any state laws were broken when the city switched its water source from Lake Huron to the city river.

And we now know the Flint River water was corrosive, which caused the water to become tainted with lead from pipes. The Michigan ACLU produced a documentary that accuses Flint officials and Michigan Governor Rick Snyder of lying about what happened.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In their attempt to avoid responsibility, state and city officials keep telling the same lie. They falsely claim Detroit cut off Flint's water supply, forcing the city to draw its water from a dangerously corrosive river.

This lie was most recently told by Sara Wurfel, spokesperson for Governor Rick Snyder.

SARA WURFEL, SNYDER SPOKESPERSON: The Detroit Water and Sewer Department at the time back last spring saying, hey, we're going to cut you off.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's a lie.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: All right, here now to discuss is Curt Guyette with the Michigan ACLU. He's a leading voice on the Flint water crisis and broke the story to the public.

Curt, thanks for coming on.

First off, would you call this a victory, the fact that the attorney general announced this investigation?

CURT GUYETTE, MICHIGAN ACLU: Well, it certainly is welcome news.

We called for an independent outside investigation back in September, and -- four months ago -- and so we believe this is long overdue and are happy to see it, yes.

BROWN: And we should point out that we have reached out to the governor's office to join in on our discussion.

We received a statement instead that says that he's fully cooperating with the investigation. In that statement, it also said that: "The governor himself has appointed an independent bipartisan panel to review all state, local and federal actions related to the city's water challenges. The governor is committed to protecting the health and welfare of Flint residents now and into the future. So, anything that we can learn anything that can help us do -- anything that can help us learn to help us do that more effectively is welcomed."

I'm sorry. I just botched that.

So, what's your reaction to this, Curt? Do you fault the governor's office in all of this? Do you think the office lied?

GUYETTE: You know, I think that the governor needs to answer directly a direct question. Was his office involved in making the decision to switch to the Flint River? It's as simple as that.

And the other question is, what research was done prior to the switch to ensure that the water was safe? Because Marc Edwards, the expert at Virginia Tech, who played a pivotal role in bringing this scandal and this disaster to the public, says that anybody with basic knowledge could look at the Flint River for five minutes and know that the disaster that occurred was entirely predictable.

And so those are two questions that the governor's office does not want to answer and they need to answer. And, actually, I think it's sort of mystifying why we have to wait for this panel that he appointed to produce a report for him to answer that simple question. Was his office involved in making the decision to use the Flint River? It's as simple as that. I don't see why he won't answer that question.

BROWN: But, honestly, how could officials not know about the potential dangers of going from a city river and doing this system switch? You have got to know that there could be risks.

GUYETTE: Absolutely, especially -- the Flint River is at least five times more corrosive than the Lake Huron water that they had been getting for 50 years.

And even more mind-boggling is the fact that, when they made that switch and used a water source that was multiple times more corrosive, inexplicably, they made a decision not to add the kind of corrosion control chemicals that were necessary. So, they went from low- corrosion water with corrosion control to high-corrosion water with no corrosion control.

And so there was -- there's definitely things that need to be investigated here. And I believe that -- we believe, as an organization, that people need to be put under oath, because things are being said that aren't true. And there...