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Final Arguments to Iowans; Interview With Former Texas Governor Rick Perry; Trump Surging. Aired 15-15:30p ET

Aired January 26, 2016 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[15:00:02]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Van Jones, thank you.

VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Thank you. Thank you.

BALDWIN: All right, here we go, hour two. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you for being with me.

Brand-new poll numbers I want to share with you that show Donald Trump, these are numbers he has never seen before. We're talking more than 40 percent here. But the timing is critical, six days to go until the first-in-the-nation Iowa caucuses. Donald Trump is maintaining his monster lead across CNN polls.

This is the biggest one yet, Trump, as you see there, 41 percent. That is more than double the support of his closest competitor, Senator Ted Cruz. Plus, among Trump supporters, 70 percent say they're devoted to him with no chance of changing their minds.

In fact, Trump stacks up a ton of firsts in this latest CNN poll, first in handling of the economy, first in dealing with illegal immigration, first in handling foreign policy, abortion, same-sex marriage. He is also among firsts when it companies to men, women, younger voters, older voters, college graduates and Tea Party supporters.

The Trump train seems to have such momentum, even Ted Cruz owned up to it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If Donald wins Iowa, he right now has a substantial lead in New Hampshire. If he went on to New Hampshire as well, there's a very good chance he could be unstoppable and be our nominee.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let me begin this hour with CNN political reporter Sara Murray in Marshalltown, Iowa.

Sara, the poll also showed among all registered voters, not just Republicans, that Trump is faring so well. SARA MURRAY, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Brooke, I think

one of the biggest things we hear right now is that people in Iowa, they don't want to throw away their votes. They want to pick a winner.

And I think we're seeing that bear out in the poll numbers. You see 56 percent of folks saying that they could see Trump as the most likely nominee, 56 percent. That's compared to 17 percent for Ted Cruz. And I can't overstate how important that is in a place like Iowa that likes to be first in the process, that wants to feel like they can pick a winner. That's what we're hearing as we go across the state, Brooke.

BALDWIN: We should point out the CNN/ORC poll had a couple negative results for Trump, but for the most important questions, which were?

MURRAY: Well, the really interesting thing is when you match him up, Trump, head to head in a general election, he actually is getting edged out by the Democrats. So, if you put him head to head against Bernie Sanders, Sanders gets 50 percent of the vote compared to 47 percent for Trump.

Now, if you put him up against Clinton, you have a closer race. She draws about 48 percent and Trump draws about 47 percent. Of course, we know that before you get to those hypothetical general election matchups, you have to make it further through the primary first. That's why we're here in Iowa. That's why you're seeing Donald Trump roll out all kinds of names that really get conservatives going today.

He announced an endorsement from Jerry Falwell Jr. earlier today. And Sheriff Joe Arpaio, that controversial sheriff from Arizona, is on his way to Iowa now to join Donald Trump on the campaign trail -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Sarah Murray in Iowa, Sara, thank you so much.

And now to the man who called Donald Trump -- quote -- "a cancer on conservatism," former presidential candidate, former Governor of Texas Rick Perry. Governor Perry just endorsed fellow Texan Senate Ted Cruz.

And Perry has been out and about today with Cruz on the campaign trail in Iowa. He joins me now from the town of Centerville.

Governor, nice to see you, sir.

RICK PERRY (R), FORMER TEXAS GOVERNOR: How are you, Brooke? Nice, crisp weather up here in Iowa.

BALDWIN: I take your word for it. I will be there in two days. I will be there in two days.

Let me just begin with, listen, from everything I have read, Governor, Ted Cruz has been relentless in getting your endorsement, personally coming to your ranch, picking up the phone and calling you maybe daily. What did he say to finally secure your endorsement? PERRY: Actually, this was a process over months. I actually didn't

know Ted that well. I knew him from the caricature of the media, kind of through the political lens.

And I wanted to know who he was as a man. I wanted to spend time with him. I wanted to look him in the eye and find out what kind of person he really was. And what I found was, number one, a really good listener. I will tell you, from my perspective in this business, having someone that actually listens to you, not just being quiet, but listening and processing, is incredibly important.

And the other thing I discovered was that Ted Cruz is one of these guys who actually knows what he doesn't know. And that is an absolute virtue when it comes to the president of the United States. There is no man or woman born yet, nor will be, that knows everything about government. They just can't.

They have got to bring highly capable, experienced men and women to their team, empower them, authorize them to go run those agencies of government.

[15:05:00]

The third thing -- and I think this is very important for a person like me, who's been a governor -- is that Ted Cruz is the most powerful proponent of the 10th Amendment. Not only is he a Constitution-loving and Constitution-knowing individual. That 10th Amendment really means something to him, so devolving power out of Washington, D.C., back to the states.

All of those collectively made me comfortable that this is an individual that not only can be, but should be and will be ready to be president and commander in chief on day one.

BALDWIN: All right, so you spelled it out. Those are three powerful reasons to throw your support behind someone.

But then I just go to the fact that not a single Republican senator thus far has thrown his or her support behind Senator Cruz. Orrin Hatch said the Republicans would lose with Cruz as the nominee. Bob Dole made headlines just recently saying it would lead to cataclysmic losses, his word for the party, that -- quote -- "Nobody likes him in Congress."

And even finally, just Bill Maher just called Cruz evil and scarier than Donald Trump.

How do you respond to all this negativity swirling around the guy you chose?

PERRY: I don't think Bill Maher is going to have a lot of influence on the Iowa conservative caucus voters.

BALDWIN: How about the other two?

PERRY: Listen, I found out on my own. And I don't know whether those senators have spent any quality time with him or not. I did. I went to the trouble because I wanted to find out, who is this individual?

And I'm comfortable. I don't make my friends and I don't make my decisions by someone else's observation, particularly if I don't know -- I respect both those men greatly, but the bottom line is, I know I have spent the time with the senator and I'm comfortable that not only is he going to be prepared to be president of the United States; he can win.

And I think that is really important from my perspective. He's going to bring disaffected Democrats. He's going to bring minorities together. He's going to bring people that want to get Washington out of their business, devolving power out of Washington, D.C., back to the states. And that's what Senator Cruz -- he believes in that.

And he's a consistent conservative. I don't have to wonder whether he's going to be the same in six months or six years from now. He is. He's going to be the same.

BALDWIN: What about -- Governor, what about some of the bigger names who have thrown their support behind Donald Trump, Sarah Palin, who is someone who absolutely helped Ted Cruz mount his successful Senate campaign?

Just today -- I'm sure you have seen the news -- Liberty University president and perhaps one of the most prominent evangelical leaders off our time, Jerry Falwell Jr., he threw his support behind Mr. Trump. Liberty is the very place where Ted Cruz kicked off his whole campaign.

How big of a blow is that for Ted Cruz, someone who I know has prioritized securing the evangelical vote?

PERRY: Well, there's not any question about the evangelical vote being strongly behind Ted Cruz. They are.

Jerry Falwell will have to explain to his followers why he's supporting someone who stood up in front of the people of Iowa and said, when asked have you ever done anything to ask forgiveness from God, said no.

And Donald Trump basically off-handedly said, no, never done anything that I thought was -- needed to ask God for forgiveness. Reverend Falwell will have to explain to his followers why he's supporting someone who made that statement.

BALDWIN: 2013, I was in Washington covering the federal government shutdown. Ted Cruz was the face of that. At the time, you called his idea of shutting down the government if Obamacare is not defunded, you called it nonsensical.

Flash forward to today. You want that same person to win the White House. How will Ted Cruz lead with the judgment that you personally have criticized in the past?

PERRY: Well, I have criticized a lot of things that happened in Washington, D.C. I came from a state where we work together to find solutions. And I think shutting down government is nonsensical.

But here's the more important issue. Ted Cruz said, when he was elected in Texas, I'm going to go do everything I can to defund Obamacare. That's exactly what he was doing. On the one hand, he did exactly what he said he would do.

I think he was setting a marker. Listen, when I was the governor of Texas, my first term, I vetoed 82 bills because they tried to force things upon me that were against my philosophy. There were people that came and said, Perry, you have ruined your political life, you can't veto that many bills. But I set the marker. After that...

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: But you didn't get in the way -- with all due respect, Governor, you didn't get in the way of the government running and potentially sacrifice lots and lots of jobs of your own constituents for your own interests.

PERRY: Well, I disagree with you that that's why it was done.

So -- but the point is, I think he was setting a marker. And being a United States senator is substantially different than being the president of the United States. My position on this is, you have got to stand up for what you believe in. You have got to set markers from time to time.

[15:10:01]

And every now and then, you have got to hit the mule up the side of the head with a two-by-four to get his attention. And I think that's what the senator did.

BALDWIN: Do you think Ted Cruz waited too long to really go on the attack, specifically when it came to Donald Trump?

PERRY: Listen, I think the senator is going to make decisions about the timing of what he does with his campaign ads and what have you. I hear him not taking the bait time after time out here on the campaign trail, from the standpoint of talking about -- you know, there's been a number of questions that were asked today where he could have attacked Donald Trump, and he talked about his positive vision for this country.

There's plenty of folks out on the campaign trail that will question -- you know, you had 22 clearly movement conservatives over the weekend come out and talking about their questions of Donald Trump's conservatism, is he really a conservative?

And the people of Iowa are processing that right now. They historically wait until pretty much the last moment to look at all of the information, make a good decision, and I think not only is Ted Cruz going to win Iowa. I think he's going to win pretty decisively.

BALDWIN: Governor Perry, do you have any regrets? Let me say this. I looked up -- Donald Trump lists you as one of his trophies, his word, in taking you down during this race. You can respond to that. You can respond to that. And just straight up, do you think Trump had anything to do with your failed presidential campaign?

PERRY: You know, I think an indictment, an absolute persecution probably of me by a Travis County district attorney had a whole lot more to do with my inability to raise money than Donald Trump did.

But if Donald wants to put me on the wall as one of his trophies, he's got a lot of trophies, that's for sure, of all kinds.

BALDWIN: Do you have any regrets?

PERRY: No, not at all.

Listen, I ran a good campaign. I talked about the issues that were important. The American people decided that Bobby Jindal, and Scott Walker, Rick Perry, you know, it appears, you know, that they have decided governors are not who they want being the next president of the United States.

And you know what, I'm good with that. I may not agree with that, but I'm good with that because that's how this country works.

BALDWIN: Governor Perry, I really appreciate the time. Thank you so much there in Iowa.

PERRY: Thank you. So long.

BALDWIN: Thank you. Thank you.

PERRY: Bring your long coat.

BALDWIN: I will indeed, sir. See you in a couple days.

Coming up next, after new fallout today after CNN's Democratic town hall in Iowa, see the confrontation between Clinton and a voter there and why Bernie Sanders says taxes will go up if he's elected president.

Also ahead, Marco Rubio picks up a notable endorsement. The question is, will this person's opinion even matter?

And the death of a police officer sparked a massive manhunt, but a twist in the case revealed dark secrets about his past and the circumstances surrounding his death -- new details ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:17:28]

BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Six days to go here for these candidates to sway those undecideds, rally the supporters, convince them to get out on caucus night, make their voices heard in Iowa.

Last night, we saw Democrats make their final push. Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders made sure his criticism of Hillary Clinton was crystal- clear.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (VT-I), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We will raise taxes. Yes, we will. But also let us be clear, Chris, because there's a little bit of disingenuity out there. We may raise taxes, but we are also going to eliminate private health insurance premiums for individuals and for businesses.

I voted against the war in Iraq. Hillary Clinton voted for the war in Iraq.

HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have a much longer history than one vote, which I have said was a mistake because of the way that that was done and how the Bush administration handled it.

But I think the American public has seen me exercising judgment in a lot of other ways. And, in fact, when that hard primary campaign was over and I went to work for President Obama and he ended up asking me to be secretary of State, it was because he trusted my judgment.

SANDERS: I think we are touching a nerve with the American people who understand that establishment politics is just not good enough. We need bold changes, we need a political revolution.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let's go to our CNN senior Washington correspondent, Jeff Zeleny, who is on the trail with Senator Sanders.

You know, Sanders was in Iowa obviously last night, but you, my friend, are in Saint Paul, Minnesota. Why?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brooke, who can pass up a wintertime visit to Minnesota?

(LAUGHTER)

ZELENY: But, look, Senator Sanders is looking ahead on the calendar. We talk a lot about Iowa and New Hampshire right now. But Minnesota is one of those states that has a Super Tuesday contest.

The caucuses in Minnesota are popular among liberal Democrats. So, Senator Sanders is spending the day here in Minnesota. And just to give you a sense, we drove here from Iowa. We're just about an hour over the Iowa state line here. But Bernie Sanders believes that he can draw a big crowd.

I mean, look behind me here, Brooke. It's empty now, but in a few hours, the Sanders campaign believes this is going to be filled with thousands of Sanders supporters, so they definitely want to send the message that their campaign is not Iowa-specific, not only about Iowa and New Hampshire here.

But the arguments that they're both making here in the final pitch, Senator Sanders is trying to temper his expectations just a little bit in Iowa. He said this morning actually that, look, I am not the Obama campaign, we are not the Obama campaign.

[15:20:00]

So he's hoping for a good finish there and it's a close race, but they're not counting only on Iowa, Brooke.

BALDWIN: All right, thinking ahead, Super Tuesday.

Jeff Zeleny, thank you very much in a very balmy, I'm sure, Minnesota. I kid.

Let's talk more about last night's town hall with a man who knows a thing or two most definitely about presidential campaigns and politics, journalist Carl Bernstein, author of several books, including "The Woman in Charge: The Life of Hillary Rodham Clinton."

Carl Bernstein, to our town hall last night here on CNN with the Dems. Who and what really resonated for you on that stage?

CARL BERNSTEIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I thought they were both at their best, and that Sanders especially....

BALDWIN: Both. By the way, there were three. Let's not forget Martin O'Malley.

BERNSTEIN: I won't. I will get to that in a moment.

But Sanders, Bernie Sanders, really made the case for his candidacy. He was personable. He was funny. And he got the issues out there. And Hillary also was at her best in presenting who she really is at her best, the history of her life, what she has stood for, and articulated it amazingly well.

But this is about his judgment, which has been on the mark on many things where Hillary's has not, and her experience. But there's also an elephant in the room.

BALDWIN: Elephant in the room being?

BERNSTEIN: The server question. Those of us who are reporters who are trying to keep some sort of track of what's going on with these investigations, there are a lot of leaks, there's a lot of information flying around. It's not about nothing.

It's not just about her saying, as she did yesterday, "I'm not willing to say that my judgment was bad on this."

Something is going to happen down the line. It is going to -- not an indictment. I would be very surprised if there's an indictment. But the FBI agents conducting this investigation, there are many pretty good reports about what they see as more than errors of judgment in her installation of the server and how it operated.

Some kind of public reckoning is likely to come from this, though not necessarily anything involving the legal system. But it's not going to go away. And it is about her judgment.

BALDWIN: Yes. Yes. And to watch how the campaign continues to handle this along down the line.

Hillary Clinton, this is -- we saw something last night we had seen before in a debate, where she essentially was bear-hugging the president, praising this recent interview President Obama did with Politico reporter Glenn Thrush, repeating this. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: He says also in there you get undue criticism, and he says, and by the way, I have some regrets about my campaign and some of the things we did. Was that surprising.

CLINTON: Yes, that was surprising.

(LAUGHTER)

CLINTON: You know, I really appreciated him saying that because he said that -- he had that great line which I love. I think he said something like, you know, she had to do -- he said I was like Fred Astaire and she had to do everything I had to do, only she was Ginger Rogers doing it backwards in high heels. And, I thought that was a really...

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

CLINTON: ... a very...

(CROSSTALK)

CLINTON: ... remark.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: It was a great quote from the president, Carl, but also on the flip side, President Obama, through this interview, you know, critiqued Hillary Clinton in a sense, saying, listen, she's better in smaller groups, agreed that her first campaign -- again, this was many years ago -- at the time, she was rusty.

Do you think now she is truly firing people up?

BERNSTEIN: Oh, I think she's capable of it, and we saw it yesterday. There's some days when she does not.

But when she presents herself in terms of her history, what she has done in the political system since she was a young woman -- she was very good yesterday in terms of what the enemies of herself and her husband have done in terms of putting them in the crosshairs and making it very difficult for them to do what they believe in. And that's part of the issue that this campaign is going to be about,

the nature of the Clintons' enemies if she is the Republican -- nominee and whether or not their attacks are factual or whether they're kind of really off the wall often. And it's a big problem for the Republicans and for her as well.

Republicans -- let me say one other quick thing.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Go ahead, Carl. Yes.

BERNSTEIN: That I think that the chance of a brokered convention -- there are a lot of people talking about it, if Trump can't be stopped -- is very real.

And I'm starting to hear, as I said to you a while ago, a lot of talk about trying to draft Paul Ryan in some way to be the nominee, if, indeed, Trump is not stoppable.

BALDWIN: It's an idea. We will see. There's been talk of a brokered convention now for a little while, depending how many people stay in this thing. We will see. We will talk again.

[15:25:07]

Carl Bernstein, thank you so, so much.

Coming up next here: Marco Rubio tries to carve out a place for himself in Iowa as he runs third in the national polls, why he says he's better than Donald Trump.

Plus, breaking news. We're getting word here that several students have been hit by a school bus. It was an accident that has turned deadly. We're getting those details for you. That's coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Breaking news here. It is out of Indiana, this awful accident happening just this afternoon, happening northeast of Indianapolis, in Lawrence, Indiana.

Police tell us a school bus ran over as many as five schoolchildren, that one person has been killed, Indianapolis police saying the deceased is an adult, and that there are still four to five students injured after they were hit by this bus.

As soon as we get more information, we will pass it along.