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Donald Trump Skipping FOX Debate. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired January 27, 2016 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:00:16] CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: And good morning. I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me.

Donald Trump once again rewrites the political playbook and bails from tomorrow night's Republican debate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Probably I won't be doing the debate. I'm going to have something else in Iowa. We'll do something where we'll raise money for the veterans and the wounded warriors. We're going to do something simultaneously with the debate.

They can't toy with me like they toy with everybody else. So let them have their debate and let's see how they do with the ratings. And I told them, I said, give money to the wounded warriors, give money to the veterans. They are going to make a fortune with the debate. Now let's see how many people watch.

We'll have our own event. We'll raise some money for the wounded warriors. We'll raise money for the vets. But when they sent out the wise guy press releases a little while ago -- I was all set to do the debate. I came here to do the debate. When they sent out the wise guy press releases a little while ago done by some PR person along with Roger Ailes, I said, bye-bye.

Megyn Kelly is a lightweight. This is a lightweight. This is not a reporter. This, to me, is just a lightweight. Megyn Kelly shouldn't be in the debate. I don't care about Megyn. When Megyn Kelly didn't ask me a question, she made a statement last time, I thought it was inappropriate. Everybody said I won the debate. Everybody said I won the last debate. They said I won all of the debates.

We've had six debates now. Why should the networks continue getting rich on these debates? Give some to the wounded warriors. They're making a fortune. Let's see how much money FOX is going to make on the debate without me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Trump's bold slap-down coming just days before the all- important Iowa caucuses and it all started with this back in August.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MEGYN KELLY, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: One of the things people love about you is you speak your mind and you don't use a politician's filter. However that is not without its downsides, in particular when it comes to women. You have called women you don't like fat pig, dogs, slobs, and disgusting animals. Your Twitter account has several --

TRUMP: Only Rosie O'Donnell.

(LAUGHTER)

KELLY: No, it wasn't.

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

KELLY: Your Twitter account --

TRUMP: Thank you.

KELLY: For the record it was well beyond Rosie O'Donnell.

TRUMP: Yes, I'm sure it was.

KELLY: Your Twitter account has several disparaging comments about women's looks. You once told a contestant on "Celebrity Apprentice" it would be a pretty picture to see her on her knees. Does that sound to you like the temperament of a man we should elect as president and how will you answer the charge from Hillary Clinton who is likely to be the Democratic nominee that you are part of the war on women?

TRUMP: I think the big problem this country has is being politically correct. I've been --

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

TRUMP: I've been challenged by so many people. And I don't frankly have time for total political correctness. And to be honest with you, this country doesn't have time either. This country is in big trouble. We don't win anymore. We lose to China. We lose to Mexico. Both in trade and at the border. We lose to everybody. And frankly, what I say and oftentimes it's fun, it's kidding. We have a good time. What I say is what I say.

And honestly, Megyn, if you don't like it, I'm sorry. I've been very nice to you, although I could probably maybe not be based on the way you have treated me. But I wouldn't do that. But you know what?

(CHEERS)

TRUMP: We need strength. We need energy. We need quickness and we need brain in this country to turn it around. That I can tell you right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: All right. CNN's Sunlen Serfaty is in Des Moines, Iowa, ahead of tomorrow's debate, and CNN's senior media correspondent Brian Stelter is here in New York.

Sunlen, I want to start with you. Start us off. Good morning.

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Carol. Well, this was quite the bombshell. It quickly escalated and I have to say it continues to pick up steam this morning. The Trump campaign already out really doubling down on this boycott saying that they are not going to back down, they are not bluffing. They say Donald Trump will not appear on the debate stage tomorrow night and the campaign is moving forward, as they say, with a competing event, counterprogramming, so to speak, on Thursday night where Trump says he will have a fundraiser for wounded veterans here in Des Moines.

Trump also out this morning tweeting about FOX News moderator Megyn Kelly saying, "I refuse to call Megyn Kelly a bimbo because that would not be politically correct. Instead I will only call her a lightweight reporter."

[10:05:02] Now Senator Ted Cruz for his part trying to capitalize a little bit over all this controversy, really getting in there, seizing on this moment. Sending out fundraising pitches to the supporters, questioning whether Donald Trump can stand up to ISIS when he can't even stand up to Megyn Kelly and issuing this direct challenge to Donald Trump last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED CRUZ (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This race is a dead heat between Donald and me. We are effectively tied in the state of Iowa. If he's unwilling to stand on the debate stage with the other candidates, then I would like to invite Donald right now to engage in a one-on-one debate with me any time between now and the Iowa caucuses.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SERFATY: So you see Ted Cruz there trying to capitalize on this moment. You can understand that this will cause a lot of tension within many of the campaigns today, how they will react, what they will do. Many questions still remain among many of the campaigns. The campaigns telling me they feel like they're in turmoil right now because they honestly don't know what Donald Trump will do in the end.

We do know that Senator Ted Cruz's campaign is revamping their debate strategy, how they will approach it tomorrow night in the event of either scenario -- Carol.

COSTELLO: All right. Sunlen Serfaty, many thanks.

And Brian Stelter, I want to bring you in with this because this was the last straw in Donald Trump's mind when FOX News and Roger Ailes put out this press release. And it says, " We learned from a secret back channel that the Ayatollah and Putin both intend to treat Donald Trump unfairly when they meet with him if he becomes president. A nefarious source tells us that Trump has his own secret plan to replace the cabinet with his Twitter followers to see if he should even go to those meetings."

So Donald Trump was angry about that. He said that's the last straw and of course he's angry about Megyn Kelly being one of the moderators. So Trump sent back a statement and this is what I want to ask you about. Trump says, "As someone who has a personal net worth of many billions of dollars, Mr. Trump knows a bad deal when he sees one. FOX News is making tens of millions of dollars on debates and setting ratings records whereas in previous years they were low-rated afterthoughts." So he says FOX will regret this because all FOX really cares about is making money.

Your thoughts?

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: There certainly is a business calculation going on here by Donald Trump and his campaign. I think it's really important to underscore that. We heard this morning from Trump's campaign manager saying all those advertisers, they've spent a lot of money on ads for tomorrow night's debate expecting Trump to be there, he says they must be deeply disappointed this morning hearing Trump won't be on the stage.

In other words, the Trump campaign is trying to make FOX News hurt where it counts, which is in its wallet, in its bank account, so to speak. It's an interesting business calculation there you don't normally see from politicians but, of course, Trump says he's not a normal politician.

This morning Trump also tweeting about FOX calling the network pathetic. We can put on screen what he said about that statement you just read, Carol. Trump said, "The statement put out yesterday by FOX News was a disgrace to broadcasting and journalism. Who would ever thought to say something so nasty and dumb?"

But let me raise this as well with you, Carol. Just, you know, play devil's advocate. This time yesterday I was on television saying, you know, I'm sure Trump will be at the debate. No matter what, he's going to show up. 24 hours later he says he's not going to be there. But could this all be a ruse? Could this all be a game he's playing? Could he make a surprise tomorrow night?

I wouldn't put it past him. You know, keep in mind, he hasn't actually said with his own words, I will not be there. He's said things like, I probably won't be there. I most likely won't be there. He's let his campaign aides say it for him. I'm just saying, crazier things have happened, right?

(LAUGHTER)

COSTELLO: Yes. You're absolutely right about that. There's no question that that is true, Brian Stelter.

STELTER: But, you know, if he does have this other event, if he does have a counterprogramming rally, I'm sure channels like CNN will carry it and it would be a wild sort of split-screen moment, maybe a social media moment. If he's having a rally or a fundraiser for veterans at the same time the debate is going on, you know, that would be the latest twist in this race that no one would see coming.

COSTELLO: I can't help but feel that veterans are sort of the pawns in this game.

STELTER: You're not the only one saying that. I've seen that all over Twitter and Facebook the morning when people saying that Trump is using them in that way. On the other hand, I've heard from a Trump campaign aide, they've already got commitments for a lot of money for this fundraiser. It would be strange at this point if Trump doesn't have the fundraiser now that he's promised to have it tomorrow night. And you can imagine a lot of viewers are going to tune in and see what that's like, what Trump actually has or what he has in store.

COSTELLO: All right. Brian Stelter, many thanks to you.

STELTER: Thanks.

COSTELLO: OK. So Trump dumping FOX News in an unprecedented move. So will the two sides make peace as Brian suggested leading to a dramatic 11th hour appearance for Trump on the debate stage? And will Iowans punish Trump for ditching the final presidential debate before their all-important first in the nation caucuses?

Here to discuss, Peter Beinart, contributor to the Atlantic and CNN political commentator, Jason Johnson, politics editor at theRoot.com and contributor to the Sirius XM POTUS Channel and political science professor, and Hadley Heath Manning, a senior policy analyst for the Independence Women's Forum.

[10:10:04] Hadley, I want to start with you and Trump's remarks about Megyn Kelly. He called a lightweight, he really did call her a bimbo. And I just want to run this by you because this is in a statement from FOX News about Trump's campaign person, and I'm going to quote from this press release from FOX.

"In a call on Saturday with the FOX News executive, this campaign," Corey Lewandowski, that's who it was. "Stated that Megyn Kelly had a rough couple of days after the last debate and he would hate to have her go through that again. Lewandowski was warned not to level any more threats but he continued to do so. We can't give in to terrorization towards any of our employees."

What do you make of that?

HADLEY HEATH MANNING, SENIOR POLICY ANALYST, INDEPENDENCE WOMEN'S FORUM: Well, this whole feud between Megyn Kelly and Donald Trump has stretched since that very -- since the very beginning with the first FOX News debate. And if Trump is calling Megyn Kelly a lightweight, of course that begs the question, why can't he face a lightweight? Why can't he handle being moderated in a debate by Megyn Kelly?

So bottom line is here that this may help Trump with some of his supporters, like everything he does, every move he makes, it helps with a subset of voters but it hurts with another subset of voters, especially when it comes to that general election should Trump have to face, for example, former Secretary Hillary Clinton. His remarks about women will come back to haunt him.

COSTELLO: Well, let me ask you about that and I don't want to paint Republican women all with the same brush, but how will some Republican women react to Donald Trump's calling Megyn Kelly a lightweight and a bimbo?

MANNING: Well, certainly, it's off-putting when you look at polling of Donald Trump, for example. You can see that for a long time he's been the frontrunner but he also leads in another category and that is Republicans who refuse to support Donald Trump, who say no way, never would I vote for this candidate. Even some Republicans in the latest poll, Iowa Republicans, 20 percent of them say they'd rather vote for a Democrat over Donald Trump in the general election.

So it may help him, again, with that subset of voters who believe that he's lashing out with political correctness but it hurts him with another subset of voters who believe that he's being indecent and inappropriate especially towards women.

COSTELLO: So, Hadley, Donald Trump often says he cherishes women. Do you think he really does?

MANNING: Oh, you know, that seems to be a backhanded compliment or a fake boldness towards women, even in saying, we'd hate for Megyn Kelly to have another bad day or two after another debate with FOX. You know, this is another way to be insulting towards women. I believe if Trump really respected women, he wouldn't have to talk about whether or not he cherishes them. It would be clear in his actions. It would be clear in the way that he speaks about women more broadly.

COSTELLO: OK. So, Peter, there are a lot of people out there saying Donald Trump has already won because he won't have to be on the debate stage on Thursday. Ted Cruz will not be able to attack him on past comments in the past back when Donald Trump was sort of like a Democrat, right?

So Donald Trump wins. He gets to hold his own forum, he gets to show he's a big guy and he's generous, you know, raising money for Wounded Warriors. So -- and we're not talking about anything substantive at the moment, right?

PETER BEINART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I don't know if this is going to help him politically or not. But you know honestly, it's not really what matters. This is a disgusting human being. I mean, I don't think we -- the original question that Megyn Kelly asked him at that debate was entirely appropriate because he had made absolutely degrading and sexist comments about women, and he has proved to her exactly right.

And beyond that, what this shows is an authoritarian screech vis-a-vis the media that I frankly would be terrifying where Donald Trump have the powers of the presidency of the United States. Can you imagine what he would try to do vis-a-vis the media if he would be president, given what he's trying to do now, essentially trying to dictate who can ask him questions in a presidential debate? God help us if this helps him politically because it is frankly to me, it's appalling and it's terrifying.

COSTELLO: So, Jason, you heard what Hadley brought up, you know, Hillary Clinton. Right?

JASON JOHNSON, POLITICS EDITOR, THEROOT.COM: Right.

COSTELLO: But Donald Trump seems to -- Donald Trump seems to have found a way to neutralize that despite everything he has said about women by bringing up Bill Clinton.

JOHNSON: Right. Well, here's the thing. Donald Trump is not going to do well with women against Hillary Clinton. He can say, I cherish women just like he says the blacks love me. He's not going to get black voters either. The fact of the matter is, he spends his entire time insulting people, bullying people, and it works because there's a certain number of Republicans who absolutely adore that, who are very frustrated with everything.

So I think that this plan overall is probably going to be effective for him. It's not going to be something that's going to cause him trouble. I still hold out hope that he's going to show up like Vince McMahon on a wrestling event or something, and show up at the debate and, you know, do what he usually does.

But it doesn't matter if he attacks Hillary or Bill Clinton or Marco Rubio. There's 25 percent to 35 percent of the Republican Party that he is bulletproof to.

[10:15:07] And he's going to carry those people on Iowa. I don't know if that means he's the nominee but he's going to carry that group of people.

COSTELLO: All right. Peter Beinart, Jason Johnson, Hadley Heath Manning, thank you.

On the phone with me now is Hugh Hewitt who helped moderate CNN's Republican debates.

Hugh, welcome.

HUGH HEWITT, SALEM RADIO NETWORK: Good morning, Carol.

COSTELLO: Oh, Hugh, what do you make of this?

HEWITT: It's opera. It's grand. I love it all. Peter should not worry. If President Trump is around, I'll make sure he -- he won't be -- here's the deal. It's not about Megyn Kelly. It's not about women. It's not about blacks. It's about generating buzz for Donald Trump. And he owns casinos, he makes big bets, he understands gambles.

I've played every minute of this press conference on my radio show last night. Twice. You're talking about him this morning. I watched wall-to-wall coverage last night. It was all about Donald. It's a master stroke before the Iowa caucuses. He went in and he basically took all the cereal off the shelf and everybody is eating Donald Trump cereal this morning. All day long, every day until the debate. Now --

COSTELLO: That's sadly true.

HEWITT: I hope so.

COSTELLO: Yes.

HEWITT: Because it will be even more spectacular. But it's not real. Everybody will tell you, he doesn't dislike anybody. I've been -- I've got my own Trump tattoo, remember? He called me a third-rate radio announcer after I got into the Quds-Kurds thing with him. I called him up, I talked to him, and he's fine and he's back on the show. That's Donald Trump. We've learned it. But we can't fall for the opera every time. We have to understand it's opera.

COSTELLO: OK. So I was talking to Larry Sabato earlier this morning and he said that this is a brilliant move by Donald Trump because he doesn't have to be on a stage with Ted Cruz who is in attack mode, right? Who has these very effective ads out there running neck-and- neck in Iowa. Donald Trump would just as soon not have to answer any tough questions or have anyone challenge or attack him, and that's really why he's doing this.

HEWITT: Very few people in American politics are sharper than Larry. He runs that thing down at the University of Virginia and his crystal ball is rarely foggy. It's usually very sharp. He's exactly right. Ted Cruz is America's best debater. Nine arguments before the Supreme Court. That doesn't happen because you're lucky. It happens because you're a skilled advocate. He would have come prepared and he will still come prepared. It's just a question of whether or not you can land darts and slice open someone who's not there to duel with you.

Nevertheless, all of Iowa -- the audience will be huge for this. I don't know if it will get as high as when Jake, Dana and I did a debate, or when Wolf, Dana, and I did a debate. But it will be big. It will be at least as big as the 11 million that watched the last FOX News debate when they couldn't find channel. They'll tune in and there won't be an empty lectern. The RNC is very fair. I heard Sean Spicer, who's Reince Priebus' deputy, last night say this is not our fight. You know, you don't have to go to these debates, you just can't go to other debates.

So the RNC is being very smart. They're stepping away. There won't be any games with the podiums. Nevertheless, there are 18 million people, including a lot of Iowa watching everyone -- you know, do you think Jeb Bush is going to -- Donald is not here, I won't talk about him after he's been called low energy 18,000 times? Not a chance. So I in my heart hope he shows up because it's good for the party and I'm a conservative and I want the Republican nominee to win.

But the top stop that Peter was talking about, you know, that he'd be afraid of. I love Peter. Peter and I have done a lot of events over the years. But calm down. Donald Trump is just working the media like a cello and we're all playing beautiful music this morning as a result.

COSTELLO: It is a beautiful orchestra, isn't it? Hugh Hewitt, thanks for fine insights as usual.

(LAUGHTER)

I love you, Hugh Hewitt.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, just days until Iowa voters head to the polls, how are they reacting to the Trump news? We'll hear from them next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:23:29] COSTELLO: Donald Trump makes his own rules into his rabid supporters. That's part of his charm. His latest challenge a potential game-changer. Trump is boycotting tomorrow night's GOP debate because he says FOX moderator Megyn Kelly will not be fair to him.

CNN Politics executive editor Mark Preston is in Des Moines ahead of the debate and CNN media analyst Bill Carter is in New York.

Welcome to both of you.

MARK PRESTON, CNN POLITICS EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR: Good to be here.

BILL CARTER, CNN MEDIA ANALYST: Thanks, Carol.

COSTELLO: Good to be here. So, Mark, I wondered, how are Des Moines voters reacting to this?

PRESTON: Well, you know, it happened really late yesterday. So I think it's starting to sink in for voters here in Iowa. I was able to talk to some top Republicans last night about it. A, they weren't surprised that he decided to do it, Carol. And, B, they don't think it's necessarily going to hurt him in the short run. What Donald Trump has done as he said that this is a fight with me against FOX, it's not a fight against me with Iowa. He's still going to be here in Des Moines. He's going to hold his own rally and as Hugh Hewitt said, you know, just before the break there, this is really the Donald Trump opera. He is playing this masterfully in many ways. I don't think it's going to hurt him going into the caucus.

COSTELLO: Bill, is Donald Trump just playing us? Is it possible that he'll show up at the last minute and then walk onto that debate stage like a conquering hero?

CARTER: I can't imagine he would do that without something happening like, you know, Rupert Murdoch making a personal call or something. But you know what he's doing here, he's kind of playing out what he said. He said the other day that he could walk down the street and shoot somebody and he wouldn't lose any voters. Well, he kind of just shot Megyn Kelly, basically, and he's saying, watch, people will vote for me anyway.

[10:25:03] I think he's taking -- but I would compare it less to an opera than to what he's good at, which is a reality show. He knows the rules of that and he knows what people pay attention to is the villain. And he's kind of playing the villain in this, taking on the prom queen, whatever you want to call Megyn, and it's part of his act. And I think it plays very well in terms of the showbiz appeal that he has.

COSTELLO: Yes, Mark, I must say not many people think this will hurt Donald Trump among his supporters at all because people really dislike the media.

PRESTON: Yes, no doubt. You know, Carol, I've actually been on the receiving end of this telephone call that I candidate says that they're not going to come to a debate. Back in 2011, the Jon Huntsman campaign called me when we were about to do our Nevada debate two days beforehand and said that they would not be showing up. Now the difference between Jon Huntsman back in 2011 and Donald Trump now is that Jon Huntsman was trying to throw a hail Mary at that point. He had no shot of winning the Republican nomination. He decided to go to New Hampshire and tried to get those voters --

COSTELLO: Whoa. Well, we lost --.Mark Preston, are you back? Wait a minute, Mark. We lost you there. But you were talking about Jon Huntsman and he called you and said he was going to, like, skip the debate. And then you went away but you're back now so continue.

PRESTON: OK. Right. So, again, just to recap, I was on the receiving end of this telephone call back in 2011 right before our Nevada, Las Vegas debate. Jon Huntsman has called me and said, I'm not going to do your debate. I'm going to campaign in New Hampshire.

The difference between Jon Huntsman back then and Donald Trump where we stand right now is that Jon Huntsman had no shot of winning the Republican nomination. Donald Trump is at the top of the polls and does have a shot. So, you know, to what Bill said, Donald Trump can walk down the street, can shoot somebody and still be OK. And that's kind of what we're seeing play out here right now.

Donald Trump is in a much different position than many of these candidates because he doesn't need a debate right now and he's not dissing Iowa. And I think that's very important. He is not necessarily dissing Iowa. This is a fight with him straight up against FOX News.

COSTELLO: OK. Bill, we haven't really delved into that angle of the story. FOX News, everyone considers it all powerful. If you're a Republican, you want to appear on FOX News. They can make or break you. Does this just throw a wrench into that?

CARTER: Well, it could. I mean, he's taking on -- he took on "The National Review," he's taking on the conservative establishment, and nobody is bigger in the Republican Party than FOX News. And I think it play a certain way with this angry audience that he has.

Remember those people watch FOX News. That's a big part of their audience. So FOX can't entirely attack him. They would lose some of their own viewers. It's a fascinating position he's in because I think he will eventually swing back and FOX will eventually swing back accepting him because one of he's the nominee? They're going to have to give him a ton of air time and sort of celebrate him. And if he's the Republican nominee they're certainly not --

COSTELLO: Yes. But Roger Ailes --

CARTER: -- going to celebrate with integrity.

COSTELLO: Roger Ailes did disrespect Donald Trump in this -- you know, this press release.

CARTER: He did. He said that in that message that Donald Trump was toying with him. But you know what, they've made up two or three times in the past. They can make up again. I don't know he's going to do with Megyn Kelly in the future because that seems to be like a real feud. But I think in terms of him making up with the overall FOX News, I think they'll see it. And in fact Bill O'Reilly kept talking about having him on tonight last night. I think that may be canceled. But you know, he's going to make it back on those shows.

COSTELLO: We'll see. Bill Carter, and Mark Preston went away, but thank you Mark. Thanks to you both.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, violence erupts between armed occupiers in Oregon and law enforcement officials. Now one man is dead.

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