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Trump to Skip FOX News Republican Debate. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired January 27, 2016 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[14:30:02] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Charming, five years ago. Flash forward to this tweet from Mr. Trump, quote, "I refuse to call Megyn Kelly a bimbo because that would not be politically correct. Instead, I will only call her a lightweight reporter."

Terra, this is the man who wants to be the president of the United States. Come on.

TERRA GRANT, DONALD TRUMP SURROGATE: You know what? I think if he wanted to call her a bimbo, I think he would have done exactly that. He would have looked straight into a camera and he would have said Megyn Kelly --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: He's calling her a bimbo.

(CROSSTALK)

GRANT: He said he is not. He says he is calling her a lightweight reporter. And going back to five years ago, I watch that clip over and over this morning. And it's almost like, even Megyn Kelly then was challenging him as to say, OK, so you are saying you are a better moderator than I am? So I don't know. Did this just start back in August of last year? Or was this something that has been around? Now, he was completely charming. He -- I mean, I think he was charming in the video. He told her she was great and no one could beat her. But then, I don't know. I don't know if that sat with her for a while and she decided to take this up again in August. And I think she lost.

You know, she has got to play fair to keep credibility within the media. She can't come back at him with horrible attacks and that kind of thing because she is a journalist. Regardless --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: OK. OK.

Listen, I've never met Megyn Kelly. I think she is a great journalist. Let me put that out to you.

Kevin, to you. If you are advising Jeb Bush, Marco Rubio, Chris Christie, this is the moment when they can shine, the main guys not on that stage, what do they do? How does this work?

KEVIN SHERIDAN, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: It's going to be tough. The discussion has been about Donald Trump all week. They are going to go out there and give their best effort at laying out a future, a policy prescription for America that's conservative and not the last seven years that led to this disaster that has gotten us a Donald Trump in the mix now.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: -- elephant in the room. Do they point out the fact that there is a guy that didn't show up tonight? Let's attack him.

SHERIDAN: Yeah, they will take shots. They'll probably take shots at them.

BALDWIN: Go ahead, David.

DAVID ZURAWIK, MEDIA CRITIC, THE BALTIMORE SUN I would pound him. If I was Ted Cruz I would say god handed this to me. I am going to pound Trump and he can't answer me. And, oh, by the way, you folks who love Trump, I'm here, and he isn't. Does he care about you or his own image? I'd shred him if I was Cruz, Rubio, any of them. This is their chance, on the eve of the election, on the eve of the caucuses, to really pound him. And he can't answer back for once. I don't care if he is winning.

(CROSSTALK)

ZURAWIK: There are some caucus-goers I'm sure who are undecided. And he's' going to hurt himself with those folks.

BALDWIN: All right. I could talk to you all for 10 more minutes. Will he, won't he? The drama. The Drama.

David Zurawik, Terra Grant, Kevin Sheridan, Mel Robbins, thank you all so much.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Coming up, if Donald Trump is not going to be at that debate, what might he do instead? Does he have a bit of counterprogramming in mind? And what could it be? Stay right here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:37:35] BALDWIN: We are just days away before the Iowa caucuses and there's a war between FOX News and the Republican front-runner, Donald Trump. Why does it matter? Because FOX is hosting the final debate tomorrow night, a debate that, according to Trump, he's not attending.

Let me bring in Gabriel Sherman, who is a national affairs editor for "New York" magazine; and CNN's senior reporter for media and politics, Dylan Byers.

Gabe, turning to you, you had awesome scoop --

GABRIEL SHERMAN, NATIONAL AFFAIRS EDITOR, NEW YORK MAGAZINE: Thank you.

BALDWIN: -- in this piece in "New York" magazine, beginning with, specifically you say that -- "The infamous statement from FOX yesterday about the ayatollah and Putin if Trump were president," you say it came from Roger Ailes.

SHERMAN: From the very top, from the founder, the chairman, the CEO of this network. He drafted the statement. And what is fascinating, for the first time -- I've covered this network. I wrote a book about Roger Ailes. His own executives are doubting his judgment. I've heard about internal dissent at the highest ranks of the network, the most senior producers, who thought it was a bad idea that to send out this childish statement that called Donald Trump scared to meet with the ayatollah and Vladimir Putin. They said don't do it. That's not the way a news network handles a presidential candidate. Ailes went ahead and did it. And we saw the blowback. It didn't work out.

BALDWIN: Dylan Byers, what are you hearing about all of this?

DYLAN BYERS, CNN SENIOR REPORTER FOR MEDIA & POLITICS: Well, look, I mean, it is certainly true that FOX News, Roger Ailes, went where no other news network would have gone in terms of how they defended themselves against Donald Trump's attack. Certainly that was not the sort of statement that you would usually see from a major media company, a network like FOX News. What it has created is this environment where one side has to keep one-upping each other. And Donald Trump has gone for the Trump card, if you will, in deciding he'll skip out on the debate. Whether or not that's a boon to his candidacy or a detriment remains to be seen.

BALDWIN: How -- to you, Gabe, how -- because you bring up this other issue of your piece, if you are missing the front-runner of the Republican race, how do you program the debate and ask questions as moderators?

SHERMAN: It is a technical television challenge. Do you bring up Trump, do you ignore him? If the other candidates attack him and he is not there to answer, is that fair? Trump has thrown the FOX news playbook out the window. It's created chaos. I hear they know what to do. There are emergency meetings. They've canceled his appearance on "Hannity" last night.

BALDWIN: But he's on --

(CROSSTALK)

SHERMAN: -- he is showing up on O'Reilly tonight. How does that make Kelly look that Trump is showing up on the hour before her show? It's chaos.

[14:40:16] BALDWIN: Dylan, as afar --

(CROSSTALK) BALDWIN: Go ahead. Jump in.

BYERS: If I may, I think, with all due respect to Gabe's reporting, this is certainly a big issue, unforeseen by FOX News. I'm not quite so sure that the network is in chaos. They have been very resolute in terms of how they are handling this. I think it's very clear now, barring some unexpected move from Trump, that he's not going to show up to tomorrow night's debate. That's what the leaders of the Republican National Committee have told me. That's what we are hearing from sources at FOX News. I think FOX News has been very sort of resolute in terms of how it's handled this process. I'm not sure they are in the chaos that's being depicted here.

BALDWIN: All right. Moving on now, I'm thinking of tomorrow night. That will be four days away from the caucuses. And if the I'm sitting home and I'm clicking and I'm clicking around, and I know there is this final Republican debate before that big day, Monday, what will get me to flip the channel and watch Donald Trump? We know he's doing something with veterans and Wounded Warriors. What does he need to do to get the clicks his way, Dylan?

BYERS: Well, look, I think what he is doing already with this rally for Wounded Warriors will probably get a lot of viewers. We know there is a very extensive network of Trump supporters out there who are going to heed his call to ignore the debate just like he is ignoring the debate and go to him. Of course, if you look at social media, there have been much more entertaining ideas for what he might do. Ted Cruz has encouraged Trump to meet him for a one-on-one debate, mano a mano. I've heard others suggest Trump and Bernie Sanders could have an alternate debate, which would certainly boost ratings for whichever network would carry that.

BALDWIN: Gabe, does this make for a big show? It's one thing to hold a rally. Quite another, if you are Donald Trump, thinking from an "Art of the Deal" TV exec perspective.

SHERMAN: It's clear what he needs to do. He needs a night that is bigger than FOX News in every respect.

BALDWIN: How do you get that?

SHERMAN: You need more people, more bodies in the room. He needs more view at home watching, more music, more noise. It needs to be bigger. He can then say to his supporters, look, I am bigger than the Republican Party. I'm bigger than the media outlet that is the voice of the Republican Party. It cements his role as the front-runner and he has upended American politics as we know it. That's the dream scenario. If he doesn't get it, small turnout, low ratings and FOX has a good night.

BALDWIN: It backfires.

SHERMAN: It backfires. And then he comes out looking tremendously diminished.

BALDWIN: Gabe Sherman -- (CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Dylan, go ahead. I'm sorry, there is a delay. Go ahead.

BYERS: Sure thing. I think that's a great point that Gabe is making. Look, for any other Republican candidate to take on FOX News would be political suicide. It's not for Trump. It's not for a guy who can command the sort of ratings that Donald Trump can. And, look, I think he is going to bring out everything he has got, his supporters, the guys who endorsed him, like Jerry Falwell recently. I think he is going to create his own media event. And as Gabe said, it will be a test between two media stars, Roger Ailes and Donald Trump, over who can command the biggest audience.

BALDWIN: Gabe Sherman, thank you.

Dylan Byers, see you in Iowa this weekend. appreciate it.

Ahead, they are loud and they are loyal, and showing up at his rallies by the thousands. CNN goes one on one with some of Trump's most loyal supporters to find out what is behind the Trump phenomenon.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:48:01] BALDWIN: Donald Trump has been anything but a conventional presidential candidate. And he is not switching gears now. Just days from the Iowa caucuses, Donald Trump has decided he will not be joining his Republican rivals on stage for the final debate before Iowans vote in five days. Will that help or hurt him.

Joining me now, Susan Page, the Washington bureau chief for "USA Today. This is her tenth time covering the Iowa caucuses.

Susan, my goodness. Nice to see you.

SUSAN PAGE, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, USA TODAY: It's great to be with you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: You just interviewed Iowa's Republican Governor Terry Branstad about Trump, about this unconventional campaign. Let's listen to a piece of that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAGE: Trump has been a controversial candidate. He said the other day that he could shoot a man on Fifth Avenue and it wouldn't cost him support. Were you shocked or surprised or offended?

TERRY BRANSTAD, (R), GOVERNOR OF IOWA: It's hard to be shocked by anything he said. It's interesting. I think people are so sick and tired of political correctness that they kind of accept Donald Trump as somebody that tells it like it is. And obviously, they know there's a certain hyperbole in some of the thing that he says.

PAGE: I'm surprised how positive your attitude seems to be toward Donald Trump. And I wonder if you are a little surprised -- (CROSSTALK)

BRANSTAD: Well, I was surprised -- initially, I thought this isn't going to last. He came to the Iowa State Fair, OK, and gave kids rides on his helicopter. Well, this is kind of bizarre. But -- and you know, I was there at the fair. I didn't get a chance to see him on that occasion.

But I've got to say he has run a very unconventional campaign. And up until recently, he didn't spend any money on advertising. And nevertheless, I think he has tapped into a concern that people have about restoring America's greatness and really, leadership. So I think this is all about leadership. I think the same is true on the Democratic side. I think Hillary is in real trouble.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[14:50:06] BALDWIN: Staying on the Republican side, Susan, I think it almost seems like the governor is surprised himself at his evolution in thinking of Donald Trump.

PAGE: The amazing thing about that interview was that the Governor Branstad, who is the antithesis of Donald Trump in many ways, low key, humble guy, no bluster, lifetime public servant, spoke in positive ways about Donald Trump. He hasn't endorsed him, but he is definitely given Iowans who like him a permission to vote for him, to be proud of that fact. It's very powerful stuff that helps Donald Trump, especially against Ted Cruz. And I think it reflects the attitude of a lot of people in the Republican establishment who are coming to terms with the idea that Donald Trump may be their nominee.

BALDWIN: Let's ask, though, about Iowans. You are there, in Des Moines. We have been reporting how Donald Trump is skipping the debate. Ronald Reagan did the same thing in 1980. Some say that cost him the caucuses to George H.W. Bush. Of course, he went on to win the presidency. How do Iowans feel about this? Could this hurt him among caucus-goers?

PAGE: You know that 1980 contest, that was the first time I came to Iowa. Iowans were definitely unhappy with Ronald Reagan not coming here, not participating in the sole debate they had. It's different this time. For one thing, Donald Trump has participated in several debates. And for another, the old rule system doesn't seem to apply to him. I was at a rally Donald Trump was doing last night in Marshalltown last night. I got no sense that people would hold it him accountable or hold it against him if he did not go to that debate tomorrow night.

BALDWIN: What a spectrum you have witnessed, from the no-show of former President Reagan to whatever is happening now.

Let me ask you about the Democrats, Susan. Bernie Sanders said today winning there all boils down to voter turnout. Here he was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. BERNIE SANDERS, (I), VERMONT & DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think what the Iowa campaign ends up being about is one word, and that is turnout. We are feeling really good about where we are. And if there is a large voter turn out -- I'm not saying we can do what Barack Obama did in 2008 -- I wish we could, but I don't think we can -- if there is a large turnout, I think we win. If not, I think we are going to be struggling.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Governor Branstad, his word, "gigantic." He thinks it will be a gigantic turn out. I'm hearing caucus organizers are getting all kinds of calls. Are you hearing the same?

PAGE: Certainly, on the Republican side, I think we expect record turnout. On the Democrat side, it might be different because we had the massive turnout in 2008 when Barack Obama inspired so many people. That's what Bernie Sanders needs to do. If only the people who have gone to caucuses before go on the Democrat side, Hillary Clinton will win here. Bernie Sanders needs the young people, the very progressive side this party, to turn out when they haven't before, for him, for him to win here in Iowa. That's the question, can he replicate to at least some degree what Barack Obama succeeded in doing in 2008 when he beat Hillary Clinton here.

BALDWIN: Susan Page, thank you very much. Five days away from the big --

PAGE: Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: -- the big Iowa caucuses.

Thank you.

In Michigan, Governor Rick Snyder, revealing a new team to help with the water crisis in Flint. He is insisting the lack of response has nothing to do with race.

Coming up tonight, on "A.C. 360," Poppy Harlow sits down in an exclusive interview with the embattled governor and his efforts to repair the city of Flint, the investigation into how it happened, and the class-action lawsuits against the city and state. That is tonight, at 8:00 eastern on "A.C. 360." We'll talk to Poppy about that.

Next, brand-new information about how FOX News will handle Donald Trump's absence tomorrow night on the debate stage as the front-runner refuses to appear.

Plus, we'll speak live with one lawmaker who just endorsed Donald Trump. Does he approve this move?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:59:08] BALDWIN: We continue on. Thank you for being with me on this Wednesday. I'm Brooke Baldwin. This is CNN. What a story this is. Republican front-runner, Donald Trump, says he

will skip the GOP debate, the final debate before the Iowa caucuses. His bold move now teeing up another debate. Is his boycott brilliant or the biggest political bungle ever with the caucuses just five days away?

Trump's refusal to do the FOX News event comes after a long-running feud with the network that has simply boiled over. The Republican front-runner has been pressing FOX to not allow its anchor, Megyn Kelly, to moderate, accusing her had of being biased. Trump and Megyn Kelly have had strained relations since the first Republican debate when Kelly asked Trump about comments he made and attacks that ridiculed of women.

This war of words has been escalating. Trump even putting up an online poll, asking those on social media if he should attend the debate at all.