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Sanders Meets With Obama; Michigan Water Crisis; Trump Skipping Debate. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired January 27, 2016 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[15:00:04]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: And then FOX sent out this statement -- quote -- "We learned from a secret channel that the ayatollah and Putin both intend to treat Donald Trump unfairly when they meet with him if he becomes president. A nefarious source tells us that Trump has his own secret plan to replace the Cabinet with his Twitter followers to see if he should even go to those meetings."

Well, Trump said that statement, yes, that broke his patience.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I came here to do the debate. When they sent out the wise guy press releases a little while ago done by some P.R. person, along with Roger Ailes, I said, bye-bye.

I'm going to have something else in Iowa. We will do something where we raise money for the veterans and the wounded warriors. We're going to do something simultaneously with the debate.

They can't toy with me like they toy with everybody else. So, let them have their debate and let's see how they do with the ratings.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: That was Trump.

Here is Jim Acosta, our senior White House correspondent, who is in South Carolina today, where Donald Trump will be holding a rally just in a couple of hours.

And FOX says, hey, Mr. Trump, you are welcome still to join in the debate tomorrow night.

JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

You know, Brooke, we are in a very, very strange place right now. Normally, just days before the Iowa caucuses, you have Republican contenders, Democratic contenders, for that matter, attacking each other. Here, you have the GOP front-runner attacking a television network. As you said, this has been going on for about 24 hours now.

And right now it appears Donald Trump is not going to be participating in that debate tomorrow night. At least that's how things stand right now. His campaign manager, I talked to him a little bit earlier today. He was echoing who he was saying earlier this morning on the morning talk shows, which is that Donald Trump feels insulted by his treatment by -- over at FOX News. He does not like that statement you read, feels that he is being treated unfairly by the network and is concerned that he will be treated unfairly by Megyn Kelly.

Now, some of that was taken by FOX News as a threat aimed at Megyn Kelly. And so FOX News put out a statement not too long ago -- you can put it up on screen -- just to tell you where they're standing right now. They basically are not backing down either, saying: "Capitulating to politicians' ultimatums about a debate moderator violates all journalistic standards, as do threats, including the one leveled by Trump's campaign manager, Corey Lewandowski, toward Megyn Kelly. We can't give in to terrorizations toward any of our employees. Trump is still welcome at Thursday night's debate."

But, Brooke, from what we're hearing from the campaign at this point, the campaign is essentially planning what we will a rival event that will occur simultaneously as that debate is going on and seems to be an attempt by Donald Trump to drive down viewership for FOX News to try to teach them a lesson.

BALDWIN: That's the question, how he handles whatever this counterprogramming he will have Thursday night. Number two, the question is, how will the candidate respond to his absence on stage?

How are some of the candidates at least thus far responding to his being a no-show?

ACOSTA: You know, basically, at this point, all of the candidates are pouncing on all of this. But the person who stands to gain the most is Ted Cruz, Trump's main rival in Iowa right now. The latest poll shows Donald Trump just a few points ahead of Ted Cruz.

And what he is doing, he has a new page up on his Web site called ducking Donald. He just came out with a hat they are selling. I don't know if we have that. We can put it up on screen.

BALDWIN: We have got it.

(CROSSTALK)

ACOSTA: Yes, "Make Trump debate again," a play on those make America great again words. And here's how Cruz handles the question. He wants to debate Trump one on one. Here's what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We are effectively tied in the state of Iowa. If he's unwilling to stand on the debate stage with the other candidates, then I would like to invite Donald right now to engage in a one-on-one debate with me any time between now and the Iowa caucuses.

(END VIDEO CLIP) ACOSTA: And Donald Trump in just the last several minutes tweeted a response to that, saying basically that he would welcome that debate with Ted Cruz, can they do it in Canada, referring to Ted Cruz's birth in Canada and going back to those questions about Ted Cruz's citizenship.

So the beat goes on, Brooke. There is no telling as to when this is going to stop. It's not going to stop on the night of the Iowa caucuses. My guess is, is that this war with FOX News and this war between Donald Trump and Ted Cruz will continue. And the only way to figure out whether this works for Donald Trump is essentially the voters are going to decide, the caucus-goers are going to decide on Monday night.

BALDWIN: Ducking Donald and have the debate in Canada? And these men want to be president of the United States. Jim Acosta, thank you.

ACOSTA: Life is better than fiction sometimes. You got it.

BALDWIN: Thank you.

[15:05:00]

Much to discuss. Let me bring in CNN's chief political analyst, Gloria Borger, Jeff DeWit, state treasurer of Arizona, who has just endorsed Donald Trump, Matt Schlapp, former political director for George W. Bush, and currently the chairman of the American Conservative Union, and CNN's senior media correspondent, host of "RELIABLE SOURCES," Mr. Brian Stelter.

Great to have all of you on.

Gloria, I just want to give you the floor first, because speaking of reaction from some of these other candidates of this no-showness of Donald Trump tomorrow night, you talked to Jeb Bush. What is Jeb Bush saying?

GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I just asked him. I just caught him and I asked him, what do you think about Donald Trump deciding not participate in a debate tomorrow night? And how does that change the dynamic? Take a listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BORGER: Tomorrow night, Donald Trump has said he is not going to participate. What do you think about that?

JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think it's a little weird. I don't see the benefit of him not debating. He seems to be worried about unfair questions, when in fact he just dominates the press. It's just a strange thing for him to suggest.

If that's hard, then, I mean, he's in the same position as Barack Obama. He doesn't do interviews with FOX. That just seems kind of weird. And the fact that he thinks he is being treated unfairly when he is going to be president of the United States? Life's unfair. You have got to make tough decisions. You have to challenge things. You have to deal with foreign leaders that don't all agree with you. You can't take your toys and go home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BORGER: You know, Brooke, it will change the dynamics of the debate tomorrow night without Trump there.

And the question that Jeb Bush raised to me is, well, are the folks -- my colleagues on the stage with me who have been reluctant to attack Donald Trump, will they now attack him in his absence and be braver a little about it?

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Attack, attack, attack, yes, yes, yes.

Before we get into how that could work, Jeff, I'm curious. You have endorsed Donald Trump. You heard Jeb Bush say weird, it's just weird. What do you think of Trump not showing up?

JEFF DEWIT, ARIZONA STATE TREASURER: Well, I think this is an amazing display of leadership, quite frankly.

Here you have -- don't forget that Donald Trump didn't attack FOX. FOX is attacking Mr. Trump. The statement they put out about the ayatollah and Putin and all of that, I can't believe that they honestly believe that they are maintaining their journalistic integrity when they do things like that.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: I think that's a fair assessment. But if I may, he is also calling Megyn Kelly a bimbo. How is that leadership?

DEWIT: They are trying to personalize it with Megyn.

But let's be straight that he was still going to the debate even with Megyn Kelly as the moderator. But when FOX put out the crazy statement about the ayatollah and all that just junk they put out there, you know, Mr. Trump is one of the most successful businesspeople our country has ever produced.

And, quite frankly, he deserves to be treated with respect like everyone else does. I think it's an amazing display of leadership. It shows exactly what we want in this country, that a leader that will back out of a bad deal like this turned into. It's a bad deal, this debate.

And there's a big joke about how the debates -- there's the early debate that they called the kiddie table. And, quite frankly, without Mr. Trump in the debate, the entire debate is now the kiddie table. And I think FOX really played it wrong.

BALDWIN: Listen, it could end up being totally brilliant strategy- wise. We are all talking about him. And we will for the next couple of days. What does he do? How does he handle this?

Brian Stelter, to you, I want to ask about potential counterprogramming from Mr. Trump. But first and foremost, you have gotten some detail from FOX as far as will there be an empty podium on the stage.

(CROSSTALK)

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Yes, just receiving this from FOX, confirming they won't actually put an empty podium. There had been speculation about this almost an entire day. Maybe they would put an empty podium or, I don't know, maybe even a cardboard cut out of Trump right there in the center of the stage.

(CROSSTALK)

STELTER: Well, no, they will not be doing that. They will not be pointing that out in that way.

This is a very strange situation with FOX. It is the favored network of the GOP, yet it's at war with the GOP front-runner. I'm not sure how they are going to find a way out of this, to be frank with you. I'm reminded of Shakespeare. All the world is a stage and all the men and really are merely players.

(CROSSTALK)

STELTER: Well, it feels like it's Donald Trump's stage, it just feels like it's his stage and we are all part of the play right now. And that could go on for a while, it seems like.

BALDWIN: Matt, do you agree with that? Great quote, by the way, Stelter.

Do you agree with that? And also how do you think this could benefit a Cruz, a Rubio, a Bush?

MATT SCHLAPP, FORMER WHITE HOUSE DIRECTOR OF POLITICAL AFFAIRS: Look, I think that Donald Trump on these debate stages, although I know if you look at the polls after the debates he always seems to score very well. But he doesn't really get into details and he really doesn't really get dirty on all of these back-and-forths.

He makes his points, and usually you have Bush and Rubio and Cruz kind of scrapping it out after that. And so I don't know if his absence is going to make a big dynamic change in the debate.

I couldn't tell you, Brooke. I will be honest. I can't tell you whether this is going to hurt him or whether it's going to help him. Every time I have predicted something is going to hurt him, it hasn't hurt him. So, maybe I'm no longer qualified to answer that question.

The one thing I will say about FOX is I obviously wish, as a partisan Republican, that Donald Trump would be at the debate. I think it's good for the voters to get to see everybody up there. But I will tell you that I don't think he is at war with FOX. I think he has a very big problem with Megyn Kelly.

[15:10:10]

I wish that problem didn't exist. But I think you will see Donald Trump on the other FOX shows that he frequents. And I think the voters in Iowa will continue to get a big dose of Donald Trump.

BALDWIN: What about Rupert Murdoch here?

Brian Stelter, I'm directing this to you, because Donald Trump, according to Gabe Sherman, who we had on earlier, his sources says, listen, Donald Trump, he talks to anyone over at FOX, it's going to be the head chief, Rupert Murdoch.

That said, Rupert Murdoch tweeted today that he wants former New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg to jump into the race. Here's a tweet from him.

What is going on here?

STELTER: What an interesting pot-stirring here from Rupert Murdoch.

Murdoch is the ultimate boss at FOX News. But he gives Roger Ailes a whole lot of autonomy. There is no indication right now that Murdoch is involved, even if Trump does want Murdoch to get involved. There's a lot of intrigue about that, as Gabe was reporting about, whether that could happen.

I do want to leave open just a little bit the possibility that maybe Trump makes a surprise appearance. Maybe Murdoch or Ailes gets through to him, maybe persuades him. I just -- like you, I have been wrong all along when it comes to this campaign.

I don't want to say anything for sure. Maybe Trump is going to surprise all of us, But if he doesn't, if he does have this counterprogramming event, I do think it will be highly rated. I think there will be a lot of curiosity about his fund-raising event. I think there will be a lot of tune-in for it.

It's almost like Trump is this really wise executive producer. He's producing the Trump show. And if it's not on FOX, then it's on other channels. It's on Twitter. It's on Facebook. It's on Instagram. He is like a TV programmer at heart.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Go ahead.

(CROSSTALK)

SCHLAPP: The ultimate jury on whether or not this works are these voters who are going to go to caucuses in Iowa.

BALDWIN: Right, five days from now. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Gloria, I started with you. I want to end with you. You are there in

Iowa. I'm curious. Just -- you have listened to the whole conversation. Your thoughts? And, finally, you have been covering politics for a long, long time. Have you ever seen anything like this?

BORGER: You know, sometimes, candidates in the past have decided not show up at debates.

But that was when debates were not the central events that they are right now in these campaigns. And they have become so huge that I think you -- you know, it's astonishing that he wouldn't show up. But I will tell you what. I was at a Trump rally last night here in Iowa. And I spent some time talking to people who were there.

And the Trump supporters that I spoke with said it's not going to matter to them. They don't really care. But there were a bunch of undecided voters there. And they said, you know, he ought to show up, because we are all going to be watching.

Now, if Trump just gets his supporters out there to the caucuses, then he will be fine and he could win. But the question is, if his people decide that they don't want to come out on a cold night and they haven't been participants in the past and he needs some of those undecideds who have participated in caucuses, then it could be a problem for him. It's very hard to predict how this is going to shake out, Brooke.

BALDWIN: We're hearing that these caucus organizers are getting phone call after phone call after phone call, where do we go? How do we show up? Turnout will be everything.

Gloria Borger, Jeff DeWit, Matt Schlapp, Brian Stelter, thank you all so very much.

Coming up next, there is U.S. senator in Iowa right now campaigning against Donald Trump, hurling attacks about his personal life. You will hear from him.

Plus, they are loud. They're loyal. And they're showing up at his rallies by the thousands. CNN goes one on one with some of Trump's most loyal supporters from across the country to find out what is behind this Trump phenomenon.

And Ted Cruz's wife sitting down with CNN about what the candidate is like when the cameras are not rolling, what she says to all of the colleagues ripping Cruz's likability. Do not miss that interview.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:18:23]

BALDWIN: You are watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Donald Trump. Donald Trump picking up key endorsements this week from Liberty University president Jerry Falwell Jr., son of the late televangelist, and also an endorsement from the controversial Arizona Sheriff Joe Arpaio.

But the presidential front-runner on the Republican side is not without his critics. Case in point, U.S. Senator Ben Sasse. The freshman senator from Nebraska is in neighboring Iowa leading the charge to stop Donald Trump, this after he launched a firestorm of tweets questioning Trump on everything from policy to his personal life.

CNN senior political reporter Manu Raju joins me live from West Des Moines.

Manu, you talked to Senator Sasse. What did he say?

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: It's a really unusual campaign that senator Sasse is launching here.

He's not running for anything and he is not endorsing any candidate. He is on this aggressive one-man mission to stop Donald Trump. He believes Trump hasn't been vetted appropriately about the media. He believes that Trump has flip-flopped on key conservative positions.

He believes that Donald Trump has acted like a king and has sort of just ignored the kind of basic constitutional protections of the executive branch, believes that he would be another Republican -- he would be basically an Obama Republican, is what he said.

And he also took aim at Donald Trump's personal life. Here's a little bit more of what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BEN SASSE (R), NEBRASKA: We are talking about oaths in a system of government that's limited. We believe oaths are really important because you are taking an oath to fulfill a specific office.

[15:20:03]

So a lot of the media want to make thing about whatever sexual scandal, this, that, or other thing. Here's the question I'm asking. Isn't it pretty weird for a guy to brag about trying to get married women to break their oaths?

I think that's weird. There is a difference in life between saying, hey, we all mistakes and we are imperfect. I believe that. My theology has me chief of sinners. That's a different thing than saying it's really cool to break an oath.

I care about whether or not the guy who is going to be our next president takes an oath to the Constitution and believes that oath binds him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Now, that's really a new line of criticism that we have not heard yet on the campaign. But that refers to is Donald Trump talking about some of those extramarital affairs in his book "Art of the Deal."

Now Ben Sasse is out here campaigning with a handful of candidates. He was with Ted Cruz yesterday. He will be with Marco Rubio, as well as Carly Fiorina. It really just goes to show how high the stakes are for Monday. Conservatives are very concerned that if Donald Trump wins here in Iowa, he could potentially run the table in New Hampshire and beyond.

You have seen a lot of those critics come out here pretty aggressively, like we heard from Ben Sasse just now.

BALDWIN: Senator Sasse, sounds like one man on a mission.

Manu Raju, thank you for sharing that.

Then the question is who are and where are they coming from, all these Donald Trump supporters, this Trump phenomenon?

CNN Politics' Jeremy Diamond and our political team went on this fact- finding mission to explore what has become the Trump phenomenon.

And Jeremy is with me in South Carolina.

First of all, congrats to the CNN Politics team. It is a phenomenal read, and the videos and the themes. What surprised you the most in talking to all of these different folks across the country for months?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: It's hard to say what I have been surprised by.

I have been covering the Trump campaign since the outset. And what really it was is kind of a snowball effect of hearing the same kinds of things repeatedly from people and how closely what they say mirrors what Donald Trump has said on the stump.

They talk about you how they love his lack of political correctness. It's kind the first thing that they say, how they love that how he speaks -- he shoots from the hip and he kind of says exactly what he means. And, most of all, they like that he is saying the things that they feel, but may not feel comfortable saying in public. And they feel like he is kind of giving them a voice to those feelings that they have.

BALDWIN: Let's listen to some of it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TURNER EAKINS, TRUMP SUPPORTER: Eighteen-year-olds, we really value action and who's going to come through and, to us, that's Trump. I mean he walked out -- we're not going to take it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I mean, I'm afraid to say what I really feel, you know, because it's not politically correct. But, sometimes, you have got to stand up and say, hey, this is wrong.

QUESTION: So you like his not being politically correct? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I absolutely like it. I think this country

better go back to some of those values.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Put them on a list. If you are a law-abiding Muslim, why care, if you have nothing to hide? But as someone said, 999 of them could be good people. It only takes one terrorist to blow this whole place up. You know? So you have to be careful now. Times have changed. This liberal attitude of let everybody in is unsafe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DIAMOND: Yes, so what you see there, Brooke, is basically you hear people talking about their hopes, their aspirations, you know, the economic anxiety this the country.

BALDWIN: Wow.

DIAMOND: And they also talk about, you know, kind of the demographic tumult in the country. You know, a lot of these -- most of Trump's supporters are white. And a lot of them do express certain anxieties about kind of the changing demographic makeup of the country, whether that's undocumented immigrants coming in from, you know, South America and Central America, or if that's kind the sense that they have of President Obama, a lot of them saying that they feel like President Obama is creating a racial divide in this country, worsening race relations, rather than helping them.

BALDWIN: It's just a fascinating read for people who really support the man, but also those who are sort of still sitting months later scratching their heads, how the heck did this happen?

Jeremy Diamond, thank you so much, and, of course, from M.J. and Sara and the rest of the team, awesome job. If you want to read this, please go to CNN.com. Thank you.

Coming up next, let's just stay on what is happening here in Flint, Michigan, how to fix that water crisis. The governor there, Rick Snyder, increasingly under pressure, speaking one on one now with my colleague Poppy Harlow about what he plans to do about that. That's next.

Also today, Senator Bernie Sanders meeting with President Obama at the White House just this afternoon. This is just days after the president delivered high praise for his opponent, for Senator Sanders' opponent, Hillary Clinton. Is the president taking sides in the race? You will hear what Sanders thinks coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:29:10]

BALDWIN: Got some breaking news here.

The U.S. military is worried that North Korea may be preparing to launch a ballistic missile. Military and intelligence officials are raising brand-new concerns after the recent movement of equipment, movement of personnel at this satellite launching facility.

U.S. officials say a satellite is sitting atop the equivalent of a three-stage intercontinental ballistic missile. In recent days, overhead satellite imagery has shown movement of equipment and personnel near the satellite. U.S. officials anticipate North Korea may claim the satellite is one the country has a right to launch.

To Michigan now, the governor there, Rick Snyder, under all kinds of pressure for his handling of the water crisis in Flint, families and children still without clean water, many of them fearing that they have been exposed to lead.

And, today, he faced the media to reveal a team of experts and defend accusations against him and his administration.