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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Trump Snubs Debate; Prison Escape. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired January 27, 2016 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00] PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Right now. Have a great day.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield. And welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

Five days out from the Iowa caucuses. And guess where most of the candidates for president are spending this hump day? Hillary, Jeb, Marco, and Ted, Chris, Bernie, and Bill, as in Clinton, are all trying to win friends and influence caucus goers around that state. And there's Donald Trump with a rally set this evening in South Carolina, who's first in Dixie primary is February 20th. To be sure, Trump will get back to Iowa before next Monday, but the buzz, and by buzz I mean the deafening roar, is all about the pre-caucus spectacle Trump is skipping, at least for now. That would be tomorrow night's GOP debate sponsored by fox News, which in a typical election year the Republican presidential frontrunner would be in pretty good terms with. Instead, though, after a day-long snarkfest (ph) centered on Trump's long- running feud with Fox host Megan Kelly, the Trump camp put out a statement reading in part, quote, "Roger Ailes and Fox News thinks they can toy with him, but Mr. Trump doesn't play games. He will not be participating in the Fox News debate and will instead host an event in Iowa to raise money for the veterans and wounded warriors who have been treated so horribly by our all talk no action politicians."

For Trump, the last straw was Fox's less than deferential response to (INAUDIBLE) poll that asked Trump's Twitter followers whether he should, in fact, boycott over Kelly's alleged unfairness. And this is what Fox said about it. Quote, "we learned from a secret back channel that the ayatollah and Putin both intend to treat Donald Trump unfairly when they meet with him if he becomes president. A nefarious sources tells us that Trump has his own secret plan to replace the cabinet with his Twitter followers to see if he should even go to those meetings."

I don't think I need to say, this is not your father's campaign for president, folks. In a phone interview this morning, Trump's campaign manager said the problem is Megyn Kelly's obsession.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COREY LEWANDOWSKI, TRUMP CAMPAIGN MANAGER: What we know is that Megyn Kelly is totally obsessed with - with Mr. Trump. She's done show after show about, you know, why the media shouldn't be having him on television. Donald Trump is the best debater on the debate stage. We know this. He's a clear winner. He has been by every debate poll that's taking place. He's not afraid to debate. And I want to be very clear about this. He's done more television, more radio than all of the other candidates combined, and so he's not afraid to ask - answer questions. He's on your show all the time. He was on yesterday.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

LEWANDOWSKI: But the bottom line is, you have people who aren't going to be fair and ask questions that the American people want to talk about and instead they want to make this about themselves, and that's what this - this is about, and it's a shame.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Time to get some reporting on this and some context as well. My colleague, Sunlen Serfaty, is out in the field. She's in Des Moines, Iowa. Where else would she be? Our senior media correspondent Brian Stelter is here as well, and CNN commentator Mel Robbins joins me live in New York.

First, out to the field. Sunlen, to you. Megyn Kelly is obsessed with Trump? The last I checked, she has barely even mentioned Trump. It has been all one-way. The tweets, the comments, the statements, the interviews, the railing on Megyn Kelly, the calling her of a - you know, a bimbo. Is this reverberating out where you are?

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it is, Ashleigh, and I think that's mainly because many of the candidates are really trying to pick this up out here on the ground in Iowa and use it to their advantage. I think someone who has the most to gain and lose based on how this all shakes out, that second person only to Donald Trump is Ted Cruz. And what we saw him very quickly, very swiftly pick up on this, try to capitalize on this. He mentioned this specifically late last night in front of Iowa voters, saying that was very particular. He made this argument in front of Iowa voters saying, look, this is the equivalent of someone asking for a job interview and then not showing up. And what the response would be is that you're fired. Obviously, the crowd got that reference.

And Ted Cruz really challenging Donald Trump to a mono-o-mono (ph) duel, a debate specifically with them. And out today with a fundraising pitch to his supporters, really trying to capitalize on this. As you see in this fundraising pitch, with a picture of Donald Duck with Donald Trump's head on it, the question being in that fundraising e-mail from Ted Cruz saying, my question for Donald Trump is this, if you can't face Megyn Kelly, how can you stand up to ISIS?

Now, the Trump campaign has responded to this challenge for this two- person duel, debate that Ted Cruz has asked for. They have said they will happily do that when and if it becomes a two-man race. But, of course, that's a big no right now.

[12:05:07] Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: OK, hold that thought for a minute because Corey Lewandowski, the campaign manager for Trump, didn't just say things on "Morning Joe." He also said something to our Gloria Borger all within the last 15, 20 minutes. He said that, "they want to make this about Megyn Kelly. It's not about Megyn Kelly. It's about Fox News."

Brian Stelter, I want you to jump into this as well because all I have heard from Donald Trump's camp -

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

BANFIELD: Is that it's all about Megyn Kelly. There was an Instagram video saying, Megyn Kelly's really biased against me. She knows that. I know that. Everybody knows that. Do you really think she can be fair at the debate?

The comments now, these snarky comments from Fox News -

STELTER: Right.

BANFIELD: That many are saying are very beneath them. Is this providing political cover for Donald Trump to pull out of the debate and blame Fox News and no longer blame Megyn Kelly?

STELTER: That is precisely the view from Fox right now. What executives there believe is that Trump was looking for a way out of this debate for weeks and that he's using Megyn Kelly as an excuse. So we're now maybe using this statement as an excuse.

You know, that statement came out this time yesterday after Trump went on Instagram and attacked Megyn Kelly. Fox believed it was trying to set Trump straight, use of humor to diffuse the situation. Instead, a bomb blew up in Fox's face.

Now, you could argue that Ailes is stand up to Trump, Roger Ailes, the chairman of Fox News, is standing up to Trump by not taking Megyn Kelly off the debate stage. That no matter what, whether Trump's there or not, Megyn Kelly will be there.

But, yes, to some degree, this is about more than Megyn Kelly. This is about the GOP frontrunner going to war with the GOP's favorite network. That is a crazy scenario -

BANFIELD: OK.

STELTER: And one that I don't think we could have imaged a few months ago before, of course, the last debate in August.

BANFIELD: Well, let me -

MEL ROBBINS, CNN COMMENTATOR: Yes.

BANFIELD: Let me take you back a few months, OK.

STELTER: Yes.

BANFIELD: I want to take you back to the genesis of this whole disastrous mess, and that was a question that came to Donald Trump on the debate stage when Fox News held the debate. The question was from Megyn Kelly. She was quoting Donald Trump's own words to him. Let's play that so we can all remember how it started. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MEGYN KELLY, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: You've called women you don't like fat pigs, dogs, slobs, and disgusting animals. Your Twitter account has several -

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Only Rosie O'Donnell.

KELLY: No, it wasn't.

Your Twitter account -

TRUMP: Thank you.

KELLY: For the record, it was well beyond Rosie O'Donnell.

TRUMP: Yes, I'm sure it was.

KELLY: Your Twitter account has several disparaging comments about women's looks. You once told a contestant on "Celebrity Apprentice," it would be a pretty picture to see her on her knees. Does that sound to you like the temperament of a man we should elect as president?

TRUMP: What I say is what I say. And, honestly, Megyn, if you don't like it, I'm sorry. I've been very nice to you, although I could probably maybe not be based on the way you have treated me, but I wouldn't do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Oh, it turns out he made good on his words. He's not been nice to Megyn Kelly. He started right away by re-tweeting this comment. "Fox viewers give low marks to bimbo @megynkelly. Will consider other programs." So that was back in August. And then this is his latest one that's just come out. "I refuse to call Megyn Kelly a bimbo because that would be politically - that would not be politically correct. Instead I will only call her a lightweight reporter."

STELTER: It's outrageous.

BANFIELD: So, I mean, I tweeted out something last night saying, when I got thought all this, now I have to deal with my other children, because I had to feed them dinner. This was beyond the pale for both Donald Trump and Fox News. But the question I have is, is anybody going to give a pass to Donald Trump over what's going on with Megyn Kelly? Will he be considered a cry baby who ran away from a tough, good journalist -

ROBBINS: No.

BANFIELD: Or will he be considered a leader?

ROBBINS: No. No, he's winning in the polls. So - so if we just back this up a little bit, everybody's talking politics. I want to talk business brands. Donald Trump is a disrupter. If you look at some of the biggest brands that are in the country right now, Uber disrupted taxi, Airbnb disrupted leisure. Donald Trump, disrupting politics as usual. When you are a disrupter, you don't innovate from within, you don't talk about the mold, you freaking break the mold. Fox is not even on his radar screen as far as I'm concerned because Fox isn't the story. Donald Trump is. And he knows that where he is and what he says is his biggest business asset. It's his biggest political capital, and he is controlling it.

BANFIELD: So are you saying that by harnessing this and being louder than everyone else -

ROBBINS: Yes.

BANFIELD: The argument, which I think is a very strong argument, the minute someone challenges you and actually goes against something or puts you to task, you either attack them or you run from them. And running from them seems to be what a lot of people are getting on this message.

ROBBINS: He's not running from it. He's - he's on the offense. He is on - he doesn't need to be at that debate. Fox needs him at that debate.

STELTER: Well, isn't that interesting.

BANFIELD: Not showing up at the debate is running from the debate.

[12:10:02] STELTER: Yes. I sometimes think of him as a producer of his own show, the Trump show. He's like a network programmer or an executive producer and he's creating these moments, creating these stunts. So he's going to create his own show tomorrow night.

ROBBINS: Yes.

STELTER: And CNN will actually cover it. Other channel wills cover it. And, of course, it will be all over social media even if it's on TV.

ROBBINS: And - and here's the thing that we know about him, Ashleigh, and this is what every single voter in America needs to understand. He doesn't play by anybody's rules but his own. So I'm sure not only Fox is scrambling, but I bet the Republican National Committee is scrambling too because you can't control the guy.

BANFIELD: So here's - OK, so here are some of the things that, you know, anybody who wants to run a campaign ad against him has access to. These are his words. I want to play for you an interview that he did with Megyn Kelly some four and a half years ago in 2011 in which he was very complimentary of Megyn Kelly -

STELTER: Yes.

BANFIELD: As a moderator of all things. So have a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We're not seeing a lot of courage here, are we?

MEGYN KELLY, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: I - not so far.

TRUMP: Not lots of courage.

KELLY: Are you still going to do it if it's just those two?

TRUMP: These Republicans, they're supposed to be brave. I was disappointed in Mitt because I really thought that he would go out and had courage because, you know, we're going to be talking about things that other people would not have talked about. I think I know the issues better than most, if not almost all. I mean I know moderators that are doing debates that don't even know what they're talking about.

KELLY: Do you really think that you're a better moderator than I am?

TRUMP: No, I could never beat you. That wouldn't even be close. That would be no contest. You have done a great job, by the way. I mean it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STELTER: Charming, isn't he? Charming when he wants to be.

BANFIELD: You have done a great job. And I mean it. Look, I've been on the other end of it as well. I asked him a tough question about endorsing Mitt Romney. A lot of people made fun of him, said that Mitt Romney was having to hold his, you know - hold his nose while Donald Trump was endorsing him, and he freaked out on me. He's freaked out on Wolf Blitzer. He's freaked out on John King. He's freaked out on just about every reporter who has dared, dared to ask him something tough. But the presidents get tested all the time. Is no one going to see this, Brian?

STELTER: Well, that's what Fox was trying to say with that statement yesterday. It may have backfired on Fox. It was a tongue-in-cheek statement. But they were trying to say, Megyn Kelly, Fox News, we're the least of your concerns, Donald Trump. But he turns these into sort of theatrical moments, right? He turns these moments in on - into stages and he tries to show that he is the winner of each of these fights. And I think right now I agree with you, he is on the offense.

ROBBINS: Completely.

BANFIELD: But you're right about the interrupter. He's interrupting everything.

ROBBINS: He's disrupting everything.

BANFIELD: Will it last?

ROBBINS: And he doesn't play by anybody's rules. And, by the way, he's a master at the power of agreement. If you call him on anything, he'll say, I agree. Now we don't have a fight. When he wants to pick a fight in order to have a show and push his rules, that's when he picks a fight. So he is playing everybody - STELTER: It's really about psychology. A lot of this is psychology at the end of the day.

ROBBINS: Yes. And, by the way, the more he pulls himself away - this is a great dating technique. The more you pull yourself away, the more they want you.

BANFIELD: Yes, you think? Well, it will be fascinating to see what the debate looks like. All eyes will certainly be on the first few minutes of it, without question.

STELTER: Yes.

BANFIELD: Brian Stelter, Mel Robbins, thank you.

STELTER: Thanks.

BANFIELD: And my thanks to Sunlen Serfaty out in Iowa as well.

Coming up next, see what Trump and the other candidates have to gain or lose if he decides to leave his podium empty. And by the way, will Fox News leave a podium empty? What a sight that might be.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:17:15] BANFIELD: The news network hosting the GOP debate tomorrow says Donald Trump is still welcome on the stage. There's a podium with his name on it if he wants it. We're not sure if they actually mean they're going to put the podium out there even if he doesn't show.

As far as we know, though, as of now, Trump is still saying no, and that means center stage will be held by Trump's closest rival, Senator Ted Cruz. With me now from Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, CNN political commentator and unapologetic Trump guy, and a good guy too, I will say - we had some fun out in Nevada - Jeffrey Lord.

JEFFREY LORD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: We did.

BANFIELD: We sure did.

You know, I - I just want to get your perspective as we - as we head into the sort of midst of this really ugly fray between Fox News and your candidate, Donald Trump.

LORD: Right.

BANFIELD: How and why did Donald Trump make Fox News the mainstream media, which a lot of his followers hate and he loves to quote that he hates.

LORD: Well, you know, I was listening to another contributor this morning and - and he was out in Iowa, and he made the point that in the New York/Washington axis, Fox is seen as the representative of conservatives. But when you get on the ground in Iowa, that is less so. And I would argue that when I happened to be in New York at CNN for the - the first Fox debate, the controversial one here with Megyn Kelly, the next day as I was waiting to go on, I was doing an interview with a radio - a talk radio station in Birmingham, Alabama, and I asked the host, what's the reaction? And he said his callers were furious at Fox News and furious with Megyn Kelly, which opens up this whole thing of, you know, is fox being perceived outside of certain areas, is it being perceived in places like Iowa and New Hampshire, et cetera, as not as conservative as perhaps other people think. And I find that that's an interesting dynamic that I think Donald Trump is exploiting here perfectly.

BANFIELD: Well, I'm confused, only because for the last several -

LORD: So am I, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Yes, I know, right? Many of us shake our heads. But for the last several years Trump has been a constant on Fox News. And many will say that Fox News made Donald Trump the political operator that he is right now.

LORD: Right.

BANFIELD: So it just seems odd to me, Jeffrey, that this one instance with Megyn Kelly, that one tough question where she quoted his words. She didn't make stuff up, she just quoted his words and said, do you think you got the temperament, you know?

LORD: Right.

BANFIELD: And Hillary Clinton's going to come at you in a general election over this. That he would throw all of that away just over this one instance.

LORD: Well, if you notice in that - in that clip, when he responds, the roar of the audience, I think, says a great deal about the political impact here. And, you know, he's a very smart guy, and I think he probably did feel some genuine umbrage here at the question. But he also understands that his audience agree with him and that they - there are plenty of people out there that see Fox as, in essence, quote/unquote "the media." You know, lumping every last one of us who's in front of a television camera or writing for a newspaper together. And I think he understands the political mileage there.

[12:20:33] Interestingly, they don't seem to have that view of talk radio, of Rush Limbaugh and company. I mean they're very fond of those folks, but I do think that there's a problem here. Notice he doesn't attack Rush. He does go after Fox.

BANFIELD: Yes, and Rush doesn't do a lot of attacking either. I'll be honest with you.

Jeffrey, let me ask you something. The guy over your shoulder, over your right-hand shoulder, Ronald Reagan -

LORD: Right.

BANFIELD: You were the White House political director for Ronald Reagan. And he also skipped the last debate before the Iowa caucuses back in 1980.

LORD: Right.

BANFIELD: And he lost.

LORD: Yes.

BANFIELD: Just take me back to that time and, a, going into that caucus, did it look like he was going to win it or was it expected to be loss? And, b, is there any sort of parallel that you can draw between what you were going through with Reagan going into the Iowa caucuses in '80 and him skipping the debate and what we're seeing right now with Trump doing the same thing?

LORD: Right. I wasn't - I wasn't right there at that moment, but I know enough of the history here that his campaign manager of the day was a guy by the name of John Sears (ph), who'd also worked for Richard Nixon and managed the 1976 campaign for Ronald Reagan. And it was on his advice that that was done. Reagan reluctantly assented. They lost. And the expectations were that he was going to win. Sufficed to say, the candidate was not a happy man. He went to New Hampshire and on the day of the New Hampshire primary fired John Sears and two or three other people in his senior political operation and replaced them, and things went smoothly after that.

Now, you know, whether this applies to the situation not, I don't know. I will say this, that Iowa itself, as that situation indicated, is not necessarily predicted. You can lose it and win later and you can win it and lose later.

BANFIELD: Yes. Boy, it's so great to have somebody who's got this lengthy perspective to talk about this. We'll see you next time.

LORD: That means I'm getting old, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Yes, me too, because I remember - I remember him firing all of those air traffic controllers, and I remember the fall-out from it, and I'm embarrassed to say it. But, you know what, age is a good thing when you're looking at news and elections and the fall-out and how America's changing. So, there you go.

LORD: Right. Perspective is all.

BANFIELD: Exactly. Jeffrey, good to see you. Thank you, sir.

LORD: Thanks, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: By the way, I want to plug Jeffrey's book for him. He's got a brand new book out, just hit the shelves last week, "What America Needs: The Case for Trump."

LORD: Thanks.

BANFIELD: Jeffrey Lord. We'll see you soon.

By the way, coming up 1:00 Eastern Time, Republican presidential candidate Ben Carson is going to join my colleague Wolf Blitzer for a live interview from the campaign trail in Iowa. Make sure you tune in for that.

And coming up next, people in southern California are living in fear with three dangerous fugitives on the run. These guys are extraordinarily dangerous. And the money you can make by helping to find them is through the roof. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:27:33] BANFIELD: Today marks six days since three dangerous inmates escaped from jail in Santa Ana, California. An elaborate plan that's really fit for a movie plot. And now the reward for information leading to their capture has been raised, considerably, from $50,000 to $200,000.

Many people living in the area are upset and frightened, and understandably so because just one of these men is accused of kidnapping another man, taking him to the desert, burning him with a blowtorch, pouring bleach on him, and the rest of the story is so graphic and violent it's really tough to actually explain the details on television. It's the inmate on the left who was responsible for those crimes and accused and waiting for trial.

Paul Vercammen joins me now outside the Orange County Central Men's Jail in Santa Ana, California.

Paul, it's just astounding the level of violence that these men are accused of committing and have been convicted in some sense of committing as well. But how tough are the authorities trying to find them, other than offering a lot of money? What else are they doing to help people out there who are terrified they're going to commit a crime in order to stay free?

PAUL VERCAMMEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ashleigh, for one, they fanned out into the community, particularly the Vietnamese community here in Orange County, to warn residents, get the word out. They also have 250 officers or so on the street searching for them. But then a lot of the search involves the computer and other tips because the fear is they have gone overseas somehow or to another country.

And let's talk about that and the reputation of these inmates. First off, the youngest of all of them, Tieu, he's been in the system since he was a juvenile. He's the one accused of murder. And then you have Duong, a career criminal. Both of them have ties to Vietnamese gangs. That was the concern that perhaps from the community. He's accused of attempted murder.

But here's the possible mastermind of any idea to get out of the country, and that is Nayeri. You alluded to these alleged series of torture stunts that bring to mind, you know, worse than that medieval torture scene in "Pulp Fiction," using bleach, rubber hoses, burning somebody, mutilating somebody, allegedly. Well, he has proven his ability to escape and get out of the country before. He's done it once before. And he successfully hid in Iran for a while. So he has to be the one that they're worried about, especially with the Mexican border being so close, Ashleigh.

[12:30:11] So they are out here warning people. But right now, no significant