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Trump Backs Out Of Thursday's GOP Debate; Cruz Challenges Trump To Side Debate; Ben Carson Talks To CNN; Carson On Debate Without Trump; Carson Predicts Big Surprise In Iowa Results; Biggest Threat Uneducated Voters; Plan To Eliminate Not Contain ISIS; What Does RNC Think About Trump Not Attending Debate; Interview with Ben Carson; Trump Skips FOX Debate. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired January 27, 2016 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer. It's noon in Des Moines, Iowa. It's 1:00 p.m. here in Washington D.C., 8:00 p.m. in Jerusalem. Wherever you're watching from around the world, thanks very much for joining us.

Up first, presidential politics here in the United States. The Republican frontrunner backing out of the debate days before the Iowa caucuses. It's the latest round in the feud between Donald Trump and Fox News.

Trump campaigns in South Carolina this evening. Meanwhile, candidates from both parties, they're fanning out across Iowa with the caucuses just five days away.

Our correspondents are covering every move. And it's Donald Trump who is making waves, once again, by skipping -- saying he will skip Thursday night's Republican presidential debate.

Our Senior White House Correspondent Jim Acosta is joining us from Gilbert, South Carolina. That's where Trump will be holding another rally tonight. And our Senior Social Media and Political Reporter Dylan Byers is joining us from Des Moines.

Jim, this follows months and months of tension that apparently has been growing between Donald Trump and Fox News, especially the Fox News anchor, Megyn Kelly. How did things escalate to this point?

JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Wolf. And, at this point, it doesn't seem like either side is backing down.

Donald Trump's campaign manager, Corey Lewandowski, I talked to him a little bit earlier today. He is essentially saying what he said earlier this morning when he did some morning talk show appearances, and that is that Donald Trump is planning to move forward with these plans for an event, rival event, I guess you could call it, tomorrow evening, that will be up against the Fox News GOP debate during which Donald Trump will be appearing with some veterans' groups.

And that is Donald Trump's plan, at this point, not to participate in the Fox News Republican debate. That is extraordinary, obviously, as you know, Wolf, because we're just days away from the Iowa caucuses. And for Donald Trump to pull a move like this at the -- almost the last second has the potential to throw this race into even more turmoil than it already has been.

Now, at this point, you know, Donald Trump is holding firm in his conviction that he's been mistreated by Fox News. He put out some tweets this morning. He's still referring to how angry he is with this Fox News statement yesterday blasting Donald Trump for going after Megyn Kelly. And Donald Trump saying, in a tweet earlier today, the statement put out yesterday by Fox News was a disgrace to good broadcasting and journalism. Who would ever say anything so nasty and dumb.

And, Wolf, he even went after Megyn Kelly who was expected to be one of the moderators of tomorrow's debate. He says, in this other tweet, I refuse to call Megyn Kelly a bimbo because that would not be politically correct. Instead, I will only call her a lightweight reporter.

And so, Wolf, you know, usually, at this point, at this stage in the campaign just days before the Iowa caucuses, you would expect two rival candidates attacking each other in that kind of fashion not a candidate in a television network. So, we're in unchartered territory right now, and we're just going to have to see how it all plays out.

He will be here later on tonight, here in South Carolina just outside of the state capitol of Columbia. And that just goes to show you how confident Donald Trump is that he's even leaving Iowa, at this point, to come to a place like South Carolina which, yes, is in a couple of weeks from now. Their primary here in a couple of weeks from now. But normally candidates are on the ground in Iowa, at this stage. It just goes to show you, Donald Trump is doing whatever he wants, and, for now, it appears to be working for him.

BLITZER: Yes. Iowa first, New Hampshire second, South Carolina third. Dylan, how is all this playing out there in the world of social media?

DYLAN BYERS, CNN SENIOR MEDIA AND POLITICS REPORTER: Well, you know, it's really crazy. I mean, there's a lot of speculation right now. Will Donald Trump actually skip out on this debate? Will he hold true to his word?

I just ran into the Republican National Committee spokesperson, Sean Spicer, here on the ground in Des Moines. And what he -- I said, you know, Sean, is Donald Trump going to show up to this debate? And he said flatly, no. He's talked to him many times today.

Donald Trump's plan, as of now, is definitely not to show up this to debate -- to this debate despite what people are speculating on social media about some sort of late stage entry.

It's really clear that Trump and Fox News have sort of reached the point of no return. The insults, the barbs are escalating. Now, it very much seems like Trump will not be on that stage tomorrow night. And in so doing, he's trying to sort of control the narrative, steal the spotlight away from the other candidates. Whether that actually works or whether they benefit from not having him on stage, remains to be seen.

BLITZER: I'm going to speak to Sean Spicer a little bit later on this hour. Dylan Byers, thanks very much. Jim Acosta, thanks to you as well.

So, how are Donald Trump's rivals out there reacting to his decision? Senator Ted Cruz is challenging now Trump to a one-on-one debate. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED CRUZ (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We are effectively tied in the state of Iowa. If he is unwilling to stand on the debate stage with the other candidates, then I would like to invite Donald right now to engage in a one-on-one debate with me any time between now and the Iowa caucuses.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[13:05:11] BLITZER: All right. Let's get some reaction from another presidential candidate to Trump's decision and more. Retired neurosurgeon, Dr. Ben Carson, is joining us live from Des Moines. Dr. Carson, thanks very much for joining us. What was your reaction when you heard that Donald Trump would skip the Fox debate?

DR. BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, I didn't know whether that was true or not or whether that's actually going to happen. But I'm not sure that it matters that much because it's not really about me or Donald Trump or Ted Cruz or any of the candidates. It's about the American people and it's about our ability to talk to them about the critical issues. You know, our country is on the press piece (ph) right now. And unless we address the real issues and get away from all this peripheral show business, we're not going to make it.

BLITZER: If he's not on the stage, how, if at all, will that affect your strategy?

CARSON: Well, you know, obviously, the fewer people that there are, the more time you will actually get to explain things. And what I'm finding as I go around the state of Iowa, and really everywhere that I go in the country, is when I actually have an opportunity to explain things to people, they get it. If they don't have to take the interpretation of me, you know, from pundits and from media and they get to listen themselves, it makes all the difference in the world.

So, you know, the more times that I actually have to explain things to people, the better. Because we have to, again, remember that we are choosing a president of the United States at a critical time in our history. We have to make the right decisions. We cannot be manipulated. We have to make intelligent decisions.

BLITZER: The polls, at least in Iowa, the caucuses, shows that it's really a close race between Donald Trump and Ted Cruz. You really need to come in third, don't you? CARSON: Well, I think, Wolf, maybe you can -- you can make the

announcement. There's going to be a big surprise that night and the day after. All you guys are going to be scratching your heads and saying, what happened here? I can virtually guarantee you that's going to be the case.

BLITZER: Are you guaranteeing that you'll come in third, is that what you are saying?

CARSON: I'll just guarantee you that you guys are going to be very surprised by the results because the people, as I'm seeing them, as I am going around, are waking up in droves. And they're making the determination that they're not going to let a bunch of other people determine for them who they should be voting for, who they should be thinking about. They're going to listen to their hearts. They're going to recognize that their children and their grandchildren have a future here and it's at stake. And that we are about to turn into something else if we don't wake up pretty quickly.

BLITZER: Who do you see, Dr. Carson, as a bigger threat to your ambition to be the next president of the United States, Donald Trump or Ted Cruz?

CARSON: I don't see either one of them as a threat to me. I see the threat being the fact that people sometimes are not well educated. I -- and I'm sure you've seen some of the man on the street interviews where people are asked about basic issues, and they don't have a clue what you're talking about.

And yet, these are people who vote. And it's what our founders were talking about when they said that our freedom and our system is based upon a well-informed and educated populous. And if we ever change into something else, then we will change as a nation.

And I implore people to really inform yourself about who the candidates are. Inform yourself of what their positions are. Ben Carson.com. Go to our Web site. Read what our policies are on taxes, on foreign policy. You know, we put out a policy today on how to defeat ISIS. These are important issues. They are existential issues for our country.

BLITZER: On these critically important issues, Dr. Carson, what's the biggest difference between where you stand on these issues and, let's say, where Donald Trump stands?

CARSON: Well, I think one of the things that will become very apparent is that I have put out very specific policy issues. I don't just talk in generalities about these things because we have to have a real solution. Look at our tax plans. Look at the differences between our tax plans. You can see that mine is only a flat tax. Everybody pays the same from a 150 percent poverty rate. There's no deductions. There's no loopholes. There's no shelters. There's no double taxation, no death tax, no capital gains' tax.

[13:10:08] And it is purely proposed to drive growth. And multiple financial agencies have praised it as the one plan that will, in fact, promote growth. That's one very clear example.

BLITZER: What about on the war against ISIS? How would you defeat ISIS? What's the biggest difference in your strategy as opposed, let's say, to Donald Trumps?

CARSON: Well, you know, I have very specifically proposed how to -- how to get rid of ISIS. And that's exactly what I mean, get rid of it not contain it. And it involves eliminating their caliphate. And the way to do that is not -- we wanted to put 10,000 troops on the ground. We wanted to put 20,000 troops on the ground. That's not the way to do it. The way to do it is to find the goal (ph) and then talk to the joint chiefs and our military experts and say, what do you need in order to accomplish that goal? And then, give them what they need without tying their hands behind their back.

And also, depriving them of the money that they get from oil and shutting down their avenues of dispersion of money because they go after the disaffected people all over the world, including our nation. Not allowing them to do that, they won't be able to recruit people. And attack their command and control centers. Have them on the run all the time so that they don't have time to plan what they're going to do here.

And then, over here, we have to close the borders. We have the ability to do this. We've proved that in Yuma County that you can do it. We just do it -- need to do it in all nine sectors. And we need to, you know, tighten our control of ports and airports. And also, our northern border, particularly since Trudeau has decided that it's OK to bring 10s of thousands of Syrians into Canada. Some of them will be infiltrated with Jihadist. We need to take that into consideration.

We need to be talking to the imams and the clerics in this country, getting them involved in helping to identify the radical elements. If they are not willing to do that, we have to take appropriate measures.

You know, we need to look at our visa and immigration policies and they have to make sense. We cannot afford to be bringing people into this country. And I wouldn't do it on the basis of religion. I would do it on the basis of what makes sense. You know, where are these people coming from? Where have they been? You know, not just the kind of questions that we've been asking. Are you a terrorist?

BLITZER: So, --

CARSON: Are you planning any terrorist activities? Come on, give me a break.

BLITZER: -- you wouldn't do what Donald Trump has recommended?

CARSON: And then -- and then, we also need to teach the American people --

BLITZER: Dr. Carson, you wouldn't do what Donald Trump has recommended, a temporary ban on all Muslims coming into the United States until the U.S. can figure out what's going on? I'm paraphrasing what his position is. You don't support that position?

CARSON: No, I don't think you can do it on the basis of religion. You know, that's not typically what we do. But you can do it on the basis of what makes sense because recognized -- you know, in the Paris attacks, those people had passports that were European passports. So, I mean, obviously, a lot of terrorists can come from a lot of different areas. We have got to be much smarter than simply to target Muslims.

You know, there -- and when it comes to Muslims, here's what I have to say. I grew up in Detroit. You know, there are a lot of Muslims there. A lot of good people I played with. They were friends. Teddy Roosevelt, I think, had the right philosophy when he said we're a nation of immigrants. Everybody is welcome to come to our country from any race, any religion, any country, if they want to be Americans, if they accept our values and principles and our laws. And if they don't, they just stay where they are. I think that makes perfectly good sense.

BLITZER: Dr. Carson, I want you to stay with us. We have more questions for you on some of the most critically important issues. We're going to continue our conversation in just a moment.

Also, what does the Republican National Committee think about Donald Trump's decision to back out of the next Republican debate tomorrow night? We're going to ask the spokesman for the RNC. That's coming up as well.

[13:14:24]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:18:26] BLITZER: We're back with the Republican presidential candidate, Dr. Ben Carson. He's joining us from Des Moines.

Do you agree with Senator Ted Cruz that if Donald Trump were to win the Iowa caucuses Monday night and then go on a week later to win the New Hampshire primary, he would be, in his words, and this is what we told some Christian pastors out there, unstoppable?

CARSON: Well, I don't know that anybody is ever unstoppable, but that certainly would provide a great deal of momentum. But, you know, that would be the same with anybody who wins both of those early primaries or certainly if they won all three. But also remember, except for the last cycle, whoever won South Carolina went on to win the nomination. So that is also an extremely important state. We don't want to minimize the importance of that.

BLITZER: South Carolina very important. Trump is doing well, according to the polls, in South Carolina. He now has Jerry Falwell Jr., the president of Liberty University in Virginia, his endorsement. Sarah Palin, of course. Sheriff Joe Arpaio of Arizona. These are major endorsements, especially in a state, let's say, like Iowa. You would have loved those endorsements, wouldn't you?

CARSON: Well, honestly, I don't care that much about endorsements except for one endorsement, and that is the endorsement of the American people. This is about the American people. This is not about past politicians. This is not about celebrities. This is not about any of the things that we tend to try to make into important factors. It's only about the American people. And we need to be recognizing that they are the only special interest group for which we should be directing our attentions.

[13:20:13] BLITZER: One final question, Dr. Carson, before I let you get out there on the campaign trail. If you were elected president of the United States, what's the first -- what's the most important thing you would do on day one, January 20th, the day you would be inaugurated, 2017?

CARSON: I would call for a joint session of Congress, and I would make it very clear that we work for the people, they don't work for us, and that I will not be signing anything that borrows from the future of our children. We are going to refocus our attentions on their security and their safety and their financial well-being. And that will govern everything that we do.

BLITZER: Dr. Ben Carson, thanks so much for joining us.

CARSON: A pleasure. Thanks you. Always.

BLITZER: And coming up, the Republican National Committee standing by to weigh in on Donald Trump's very controversial decision to skip the Fox News debate tomorrow night. The communications director, Sean Spicer, he's standing by live. There he is right there. He'll give us his take on the boycott, what it means. A lot more with Sean when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:25:35] BLITZER: The buzz surrounding tomorrow night's Republican presidential debate is not about who's in, it's about who's out. Donald Trump has decided, at least for now, to skip the debate as a result of this continuing war with Fox News. So what does all this mean for the Republican Party? Sean Spicer is chief strategist communications director for the RNC. He's joining us now from Des Moines.

When you heard about it -- I'll ask you the same question I asked Dr. Carson. When you heard that Donald Trump was going to boycott the debate, what was your reaction?

SEAN SPICER, CHIEF STRATEGIST & COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, RNC: Well, obviously, I mean, Dr. Paul skipped the last one and Mr. Trump's not going to -- says he's not going to come to this one. We'd love all the candidates in. I think it's a great opportunity for the American people and particularly the people in Iowa to have an understanding of each of these candidates' vision. But, Wolf, at the end of the day, this is -- each campaign has to make up their own mind as to what's in their best interest, and, you know, so we respect that decision.

BLITZER: From the standpoint of the RNC, is it in the best interest to have Trump in that debate? SPICER: Well, again, I'd love to have all of these candidates in the

debate. I think each one of them brings a unique perspective and gives voters an opportunity to hear them more before these -- these key caucuses and primaries that are coming up. But it's not my decision or the RNC's decision to tell them how or where to be or what to do. And I think each one of them has to ultimately make that decision as to what's in their best interest. So -- and our job is to respect that decision.

BLITZER: Any -- and you can answer this if you want -- back channel negotiations, efforts underway by the RNC, you, Reince Priebus, someone else, to trying to make peace between Roger Ailes, the head of Fox News, and Donald Trump?

SPICER: No. No. That's -- you know, the candidates, after November, had asked to be much more personally involved with communication with each of the networks in terms of the moderators and the criteria and such. And so our job at the RNC is to respect the candidates' wishes and get out of the way. Let them directly communicate with each of these networks with respect to the current and upcoming debates.

BLITZER: Will there be an empty lectern on that stage tomorrow night showcasing the absence of Donald Trump?

SPICER: No. No. I think that's pretty standard for debates that, you know, whether or not they show up or not or whether they happen to be off stage during a commercial break that generally both sides have always had an unwritten rule with networks saying that podiums, empty podiums, will not be shown. And, of course, that would be the case this time as well.

BLITZER: And you -- has the RNC made that --

SPICER: And, remember, I mean what -- you know just -- just remember -- remember the last debate, that was -- that was the same -- the same thing afford to Dr. Paul when -- when he -- when he chose not to attend it that, you know, no podium was shown in that one either.

BLITZER: Yes, he didn't attend because that was in the undercard, the earlier debate. He was invite to that one. He thought he should be in the primetime debate. And, as a result, there was no empty lectern. And you don't think there will be an empty lectern tomorrow night, right?

SPICER: No. I'm confident of that.

BLITZER: Ted Cruz, as you know, has challenged Donald Trump to a one- on-one 90 minute debate with or without a moderator. That presumably would be unsanctioned by the Republican National Committee. Would you be OK with that, assuming Trump accepted that challenge?

SPICER: No, I think the rules that the RNC put forward at the beginning of this cycle were -- were put forward at the behest of the candidates and with the candidates best interest at heart which stated that, you know, only sanctioned debates were -- were ones that we -- the candidates could participate in without facing any additional rules. So we're very, you know -- we're very happy with the schedule. We think the candidates are very happy with the schedule. We've got several more to go, including two more on CNN. And so we, you know, we obviously stand by the rules that have been passed, which is in sharp contrast to obviously what you're seeing on the other side of the aisle with this debacle that, you know, having another debate proposed in New Hampshire on the Democratic side, now a war between the candidates as to who's going to attend and who's not.

BLITZER: Is this tomorrow night debate going to be the last debate with an undercard and a primetime, two separate debates? Is that the last time we're going see that?

SPICER: I think there's more to come on that. I'm not -- I'll leave that up to ABC to announce their criteria. That should be sometime shortly.

BLITZER: Because that -- a lot of speculation on today that ABC, which is going to do the next Republican debate after the Fox debate, that they're not going to have an undercard, just a primetime debate. And I'm just trying to get your sense, is that OK with the RNC?

[13:30:04] SPICER: I'm going to punt that one and leave that up to ABC to announce the criteria for that and I think the answer to that will be settled shortly.