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Donald Trump Skipping FOX News Debate; Trump's History of Fighting with FOX; Arrests Made in U.S. Inmates Escape; More Arrests in Oregon Refuge Occupation; Michigan Governor Talks Toxic Water Crisis; Australia Sends Immigrants to Islands. Aired 1-2a ET
Aired January 28, 2016 - 01:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[01:00:16] JOHN VAUSE, CNN ANCHOR: This is CNN NEWSROOM live from Los Angeles.
ISHA SESAY, CNN ANCHOR: Ahead this hour, Donald Trump isn't backing down from threats to boycott the Republican debate. What's the strategy, and could it backfire?
VAUSE: Police make new arrests after a jail break in Southern California. But the escaped inmates are still on the loose.
SESAY: And the leader of an armed occupation in Oregon is asking the remaining protesters to go home.
VAUSE: Hello, everybody. Great to have you with us. We'd welcome our viewers in the United States and all around the world. I'm John Vause.
SESAY: And I'm Isha Sesay. NEWSROOM L.A. starts right now.
Well, Donald Trump says he has counter programming to the Thursday night presidential debate he is skipping.
VAUSE: The Republican frontrunner is planning a fundraiser for veterans at the same time as the debate. He is feuding with FOX News and anchor Megyn Kelly, and he told her colleague Bill O'Reilly on Wednesday that the FOX network is in the wrong.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I was not treated well by FOX. They came out with this ridiculous PR statement. It was like drawn up by a child. And there was a taunt. And I said, you know, how much of this do you take? I have zero respect for Megyn Kelly. I don't think she's very good at what she does. I think she's highly overrated. And frankly, she's a moderator. I thought her questions last time was ridiculous.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: Who was Donald Trump really offended by, FOX News, or is he just trying to avoid a debate where there could be tough questions on issues like abortion? Just two days ago, 10 leaders from various anti-abortion groups urged
Iowa voters to choose anyone but Trump, and that hasn't received a lot of attention because of all of this so-called scandal.
For more, CNN political commentator and Washington correspondent for the "New Yorker" Ryan Lizza, is with us now from Washington.
So, Ryan, is this really about FOX News? If Donald Trump was so mad at FOX, then why did he turn up for an interview with Bill O'Reilly, his 133rd appearance on the network, or does he think Iowa is in the bag and he's now just trying to run out the clock?
RYAN LIZZA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I honestly think he was looking for an excuse to, one, make some news. You know, like any good reality TV show star, he knows that the plot needs to continue and that the following week there needs to be a new rivalry, a new little fight. So, you know, reality TV or wrestling -- world, you know, world wrestling. Take your analogy. He knows those worlds really well and he knows how to stay as the main character in the plot of this Republican primary.
And I think that's the first -- that's first and foremost on his mind. And then secondly, as you point out, he is leading in Iowa by just a little bit. Every frontrunner has one strategy in common. They don't want to debate the people behind them. They want to sit on their lead and as you say, run out the clock. And I think that was the second strategy here. And we'll see how this makes him look in the eyes of some of those undecided voters in Iowa.
Does it make him look like a genius and get him in front of the cameras even more and have his name on everyone's mouths as they -- on the tips of everyone's tongues as they go into the -- and go and caucus on Monday? Or do people look at this and say, you know, this is too cute by half, he's just ducking questions, and attacking journalists, and maybe I've had enough of him?
VAUSE: You know, right at the end of that interview with Bill O'Reilly, Mr. O'Reilly was begging Trump to do the debate. It was an odd moment.
LIZZA: Very odd.
VAUSE: There were mentions of milkshakes. Let's listen to some of it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL O'REILLY, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: I have bought you so many vanilla milkshakes you owe me.
TRUMP: True. That's true.
O'REILLY: Will you just consider -- I want you to consider, all right? Think about it. Look, I might come back. Forgive, go forward, answer the questions, look out for the folks. Just want you to consider it. You owe me milkshakes. I'll take them off the ledger if you consider it.
TRUMP: Well, even though you and I had an agreement that you wouldn't ask me that, which we did, I will therefore forget that you asked me that. But it's up to FOX. It's not up to me, Bill.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: The issue of the agreement was odd. But I mean, let's just look at this for what it is.
LIZZA: Yes.
VAUSE: Does this actually mean -- does this rule out any kind of last-minute compromise for Donald Trump to appear at that FOX News debate on Thursday because it's still possible?
LIZZA: Yes. Well, he sent out a press release tonight that he is having this event in Iowa. And, you know, he's on the hook for a charity event that will benefit veterans. So I don't see how he does that event and also goes to the debate. I think it sounds like he's really dug in on this. He's already planned a separate event.
[01:05:07] One little piece of intrigue here is what's going on at FOX News. And, you know, there's a lot of rivalries at FOX. A lot of different personalities there. And I think there's a group of people who are just absolutely sick of Donald Trump and very protective of Megyn Kelly and don't like what he did. I think there's another group that is a little bit more supportive of Trump. And I think O'Reilly is more in that camp. That's one of the reasons that interview was so friendly.
VAUSE: Yes. Mr. O'Reilly certainly didn't put up a vigorous defense of Megyn Kelly. You know, Trump is on the mind of pretty much every Republican institution so far. He's now going after FOX News? What is the calculation here?
LIZZA: You know, I think that is one of the most amazing parts of this primary. He -- you know, look, he's at war -- he is at war with every power center in the Republican Party. That has not traditionally been the way to win a party's nomination. On the one hand it does get him in front of the press all the time. But on the other hand, you know, previously, FOX News was considered too powerful, too influential with Republican voters to pick a fight like this.
But, you know, Trump is not just fighting these institutions, he's winning. And, you know, he's got this sort of, you know, what I call counter conservative establishment that backs him. It's some of the more fringy blogs and Web sites and, you know, frankly his six million Twitter followers. He is sort of building his own, you know, infrastructure that's counter to or parallel with the old Republican infrastructure. And if he pulls this off, if he wins, that's what's going to take over the party.
VAUSE: Yes. And he's building that in real time before our very eyes with every tweet, with every speech, every phone interview he does. It's amazing to watch.
Ryan, thanks for being with us.
LIZZA: My pleasure.
SESAY: It really is amazing.
VAUSE: Yes. We've never seen anything like this before.
SESAY: And probably won't again.
VAUSE: We'll see.
SESAY: You know. There's only one Donald.
Well, Trump's Republican rivals are reacting to his feud with FOX, saying his boycott isn't helpful to the voters.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It just seems kind of weird. And the fact that he thinks he's being treated unfairly when he's going to be president of the United States, life's unfair. You know, you have to make tough decisions. You have to challenge things. You have to deal with foreign leaders that don't agree with you. You can't take your toys and go home.
SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I know all the press is here. 90 percent of their coverage is on this whole thing, Donald Trump is not going to show up. Ted Cruz is challenging him to a one- on-one, mano-a-mano debate. Interesting sideshow. Greatest show on earth. This is not a show. This is serious.
SEN. TED CRUZ (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Apparently Mr. Trump considers Megyn Kelly very, very scary. And, you know, Donald is a fragile soul. And she might ask a mean question. And who knows what could happen? I mean, his hair could stand on end.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: Senator Cruz is also using this to raise money. His Web site is taking preorders for that right there. And it reads, "Make Trump debate again," a play on Trump's campaign slogan, "Make America Great Again."
SESAY: Well, Cruz has challenged Trump to a one-on-one debate. Trump's answer on Twitter, "Even though I beat him in the first six debates, especially the last one, Ted Cruz wants to debate me again. Can we do it in Canada?"
That of course is a reference to the controversy Cruz's citizenship.
VAUSE: He never lets up. OK. Trump also went after FOX News' host Megyn Kelly on Twitter saying, "I refused to call Megyn Kelly a bimbo because that would not be politically correct. Instead I will only call her a lightweight reporter." SESAY: This isn't the first time Trump and FOX News have had a
falling out.
VAUSE: Our senior media correspondent Brian Stelter takes a look at their bumpy relationship.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Hamilton and Burr, the Hatfields and the McCoys, to the list of history's most famous feuds add Donald Trump and Fox News?
It could have been a match in media heaven. Trump and FOX News boss, Roger Ailes, are old friends. Both are successful conservative businessmen who know how to put on a show.
TRUMP: I have the most loyal people. Did you ever see that? Where I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose any voters, OK.
STELTER: But their relationship is torture and now at a breaking point with Trump boycotting FOX's debate. This fight unprecedented for a TV news network.
TRUMP: I don't know what games Roger Ailes is playing.
STELTER: For years, Ailes helped build Trump up and Trump brought Ailes big ratings. But now the two men are at loggerheads with some even comparing this to a monster movie. Trump as Frankenstein.
Megyn Kelly is caught in the controversy, as she prepped to moderate a Trump-free debate.
[01:10:01] MEGYN KELLY, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: I'll be there. The debate will go on with or without Mr. Trump.
STELTER: She famously clashed with Trump at the first debate of the season, causing Trump to threaten a FOX boycott and insult Kelly personally.
TRUMP: She gets out and she starts asking me all sorts of ridiculous questions. And, you know, you could see there was blood coming out of her eyes, blood coming out of her -- wherever.
STELTER: Ailes was furious. And FOX said Trump doesn't seem to grasp that candidates telling journalists what to ask is not how the media works in this country.
Later, Ailes and Trump struck a tenuous truce, then broke it, then got back together again. And maybe they'll make up this time, too. But right now, feelings are raw and Trump is the butt of jokes.
JOY BEHAR, CO-HOST, THE VIEW: This is the first gorgeous blond that he can't wrap around his finger.
STELTER: People are now choosing sides with influential conservative radio host Rush Limbaugh siding with Trump, saying FOX is acting jilted.
RUSH LIMBAUGH, THE RUSH LIMBAUGH SHOW: Donald Trump knows that by not showing up, he's owning the entire event. Some guy not even present will end up owning the entire event.
STELTER: So who needs whom more? FOX or Trump? Thursday's ratings might start to answer that key question.
Brian Stelter, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SESAY: Well, I want to bring in political commentator and Trump supporter Andy Dean.
Andy, so good to have you with us.
ANDY DEAN, TRUMP SUPPORTER: Thank you.
SESAY: Let me ask you this. This decision by Mr. Trump to boycott Thursday's debate, is this a shrewd political move or major miscalculation in your view?
DEAN: Well, I think it's a smart move and history will prove this because Ronald Reagan in 1980 of course was running in his primary battle, and he skipped the Iowa debate.
VAUSE: And then he lost.
SESAY: He did. Yes.
DEAN: Well, he did lose but the next week -- because I was going to talk about what happened the following week because it's an allegory about control. And so he had control. Ronald Reagan, you know, presented the perception of control. So he skipped Iowa. When he got to New Hampshire, he was the one that dictated the terms of the debate. He paid for the debate actually. And when he went up against the Nashua paper.
And there's the famous moment, I paid for this microphone, and because of that moment, the arc of the race changed. But my point of why he skipped Iowa and then took control of New Hampshire is that Reagan was always in control because the Republicans were looking to, like, the anti-Carter. Carter was out of control. The economy was terrible. Oil spiking. Iran hostage crisis. Right?
And so we're looking for the anti-Obama. And so when Trump presents this type of control, we like this.
SESAY: It's not really about FOX at all. This is just theater. This is really just, as you say, it's about control.
DEAN: Well, look, all politics is part theater, right. I mean, historically. You know, that's been true since George Washington. But I think it was the FOX News announcement, the PR statement that really -- they tried to do it in an insulting and comedic fashion. And what I like about CNN, and I got to say this, is that you behave like a professional news organization. You're not part of the story. You report the story. FOX News thinks that they are the news.
VAUSE: Writing that down.
(LAUGHTER)
DEAN: Yes. Please feel free. You can turn this into a promo.
VAUSE: Absolutely. Thank you.
DEAN: But FOX News thinks that they are the story. And that's not the place of a news organization to taunt a candidate. That's just not appropriate.
VAUSE: OK. In terms of the politics here, I'm going to put it to you. I don't think anybody knows really how this is going to play out. If Trump wins by a landslide in Iowa, he's a genius.
DEAN: Right.
VAUSE: If he loses Iowa on a landslide, then this is the moment everyone is going to say that us what happened. Right?
DEAN: I know. I think that that's brilliant. Right? It's -- we look back, hindsight is 20/20.
VAUSE: Yes.
DEAN: And I agree, you know, if Trump wins, I'll be on here a week from now saying that it was brilliant master show.
VAUSE: Absolutely.
DEAN: And if he loses, you know, we'll talk about why he is going to win New Hampshire.
VAUSE: This is going to sound like Megyn Kelly's question. But does Trump have a problem with women? He called Hillary Clinton's bathroom break disgusting, Bette Midler extremely unattractive, Arianna Huffington unattractive both inside and out. He commented about Carly Fiorina's face. Rosie O'Donnell is a fat pig. You know, he's called out female reporters, Sara Murray from CNN, Katie Couric from MSNBC.
You know, there is a long list. He's very good at seeing off the guys, you know, Jeb Bush, Rand Paul.
SESAY: And Ben Carson.
VAUSE: And Ben Carson. One-by-one-by-one he's been very tough. But when it comes to the women, there seems to be an argument that there's an issue.
DEAN: Well, with all respect, John, I think you answer your own question in the sense that yes, he goes after women, but he also equally goes after men. I mean, Jeb Bush was labeled low energy. And if that had been towards a woman, is that sexist? No. Donald Trump is an equal opportunity offender. But I think he's actually just talking the truth.
And I don't think he has a problem with women. I mean, I worked at the Trump Organization for seven years. And there were many, many women in leadership positions. And the idea that you can run a multibillion dollar company saying, well, I don't like women. I don't trust women, I think it's inaccurate.
SESAY: Let me close by asking you about the people of Iowa.
DEAN: Sure. Sure.
SESAY: How would they not feel or why should they not feel disrespected by the fact that Donald Trump has refused to take part in the final debate before the Iowa caucuses?
DEAN: Great question. Well, I will say this. That there have been six of these debates before. And the people of Iowa are going to get a choice when they vote. But they also are going to get a choice tomorrow night at 9:00 p.m. They can tune into a debate without Donald Trump and they can watch it and decide, or they can tune into CNN where they're going to get to see Donald Trump get to talk about his issues and more importantly celebrate our veterans and the people will decide. So we will see what happens.
[01:15:14] SESAY: We will indeed.
VAUSE: Andy, thanks for coming in.
DEAN: My pleasure. It's an honor. Thank you.
(LAUGHTER)
VAUSE: OK. We'll go to the Democratic side of the race now. Bernie Sanders met with the U.S. president at the White House on Wednesday.
SESAY: The 45-minute meeting was the first time the former Senate colleagues have talked extensively since Sanders started his presidential run. Sanders called Mr. Obama evenhanded in his views of the candidates and said the get-together was constructive.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The president and I discussed this morning a number of issues, foreign policy issues, domestic issues, occasionally a little bit of politics. But I enjoyed the meeting, and I thought it was a very positive and constructive meeting.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: Meanwhile, Hillary Clinton is stepping up the pressure on Bernie Sanders ahead of the Iowa caucuses. At a campaign stop on Wednesday, she criticized his proposal for a single payer health care system. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He has a different idea. And I fear it would lead to gridlock, not action. It would throw us into a contentious national debate that would not move us forward. And I don't think the people I've met in Iowa can wait.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SESAY: Well, Clinton is also calling on Sanders to attend an unsanctioned Democratic debate next week in New Hampshire. The Sanders campaign has not committed to the event so far.
VAUSE: You know, it's interesting how Hillary Clinton won two of the debates when this all began, and Sanders wanted more, now he's not committing, she wants to debate. Could have something to do with the polls.
Next here on CNN NEWSROOM L.A., new arrests as the search continues for three escaped prison inmates in the U.S.
SESAY: Plus the leader of a group of armed protesters occupying a wildlife refuge in Oregon has an important new message for his followers. His change of heart and plans, coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(SPORTS)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[01:21:05] SESAY: Welcome back, everyone. At least five people have been arrested in connection with a jailbreak not far from here in Orange County, California just last week.
VAUSE: Officials say some gang members connected to the three fugitives but not all of them are suspects in the escape.
CNN's Paul Vercammen has the latest.
PAUL VERCAMMEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Isha, John, the sheriff came out and basically said the heat is on. In the Vietnamese communities of Westminster and Garden Grove a series of arrests have been made, more expected. Unspecified arrests. Some of gang members, some of not.
They also came out and they revealed a new poster of the suspect Duong, He was the man in for attempted murder. They said they have more identifying tattoos on it and better picture for everyone to look at.
And the sheriff also said that it's believed that Nayeri who successfully fled to Iran once before was the ringleader of this jailbreak.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SHERIFF SANDRA HUTCHENS, ORANGE COUNTY: We continue to work a number of leads. We are continuing to work around the clock. And we will continue to do that until these folks are back in custody.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VERCAMMEN: The sheriff also saying they are not ruling out that they fled the country, and they have not found what was used as a cutting tool in the jail break.
And on a personal note, a final thought, the sheriff did say when asked that this jailbreak is every sheriff's nightmare. Back to you now -- Isha, John.
VAUSE: Paul Vercammen, thank you for that.
Now we are joined by CNN law enforcement contributor Steve Moore. He's a retired special agent for the FBI.
OK, Steve, officials, the law enforcement here in California, look like they're putting the squeeze on these Vietnamese gangs. Is that the best lead right now?
STEVE MOORE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CONTRIBUTOR: I think so. That's what you have to do when you -- when these people get out, you have to go to the people who might know where they are and squeeze them a little bit. There's no nice way of saying it. You have to explain that you're serious about this. And one of the ways you explain that very articulately is to arrest them.
SESAY: But the 14, 15-hour head start --
MOORE: That's --
SESAY: -- before they realized that these guys were missing.
MOORE: Yes.
SESAY: I mean, to use your words early on --
MOORE: They're in the wind.
SESAY: Yes, they're in the wind.
MOORE: Yes. Once -- I mean, if you get them within an hour or two, you can set up a perimeter. You know, say they've only been out an hour. They couldn't have gone far. No. 15 hours, they could be on a plane. So you don't know where they are.
SESAY: So what do you do? Where do you start in terms of we've got these guys that are being squeezed? What else is happening?
MOORE: You're starting the long -- you're starting a long-term investigation. You're no longer in the first 24, 48 hours where things can happen really quickly. This is starting from scratch. We missed them. They are out of the area. Now we've got to talk to friends. Now we've got to go back and check film. Now we've got to intricately and meticulously go through everything, right back down to camera film from the cell block itself.
They are going to go back and find out how thick the blade was that cut the bars. And try to find tool marks and send that back to the FBI lab. Find out who may have bought those. They're going to go through everything.
VAUSE: One of the problems they have, the sheriff says, there was no surveillance cameras in the dormitory. There's obviously cameras elsewhere. But nothing actually in the dormitory. This jail is 50 years old, almost 50 year old, and has changed. Years ago, 70 percent of the inmates were there for misdemeanors, they say now 70 percent are in there for felony crimes.
So clearly something is going wrong in this jail right now. I mean, the last three escapes were through the roof, which would be considered a teachable moment, yes?
(LAUGHTER)
MOORE: You would think so. But sometimes budgets don't keep up with the real world. And it's like -- it's like that boiling of a frog where they don't know unless you put them in hot water right away. It gradually changed on the sheriff. It gradually changed on the department. And they're trying to play catch-up and maybe they should run a little faster.
SESAY: The concern has to be -- back to these three that are still on the loose -- that they will commit another crime, another violent crime which has many Southern Californians really? If they're still around here.
MOORE: Yes. I don't see why they wouldn't be afraid. These people have murdered. These people have tortured. These people have tried to murder.
[01:25:05] Right now that is why you're seeing the reward quadrupled and you're seeing people getting locked up, because the sheriff is trying to show the community of friends of these escapees, we're serious here. We are not playing around. People could get hurt.
SESAY: Yes.
VAUSE: $200,000. Money talks as well, I guess.
SESAY: Yes.
MOORE: We hope.
VAUSE: OK, Steve. Thank you.
SESAY: Thank you as always.
VAUSE: CNN has just learned that the FBI has arrested three more people who had been occupying a wildlife refuge in the U.S. state of Oregon. The FBI says they turned themselves in at a police checkpoint.
SESAY: They joined protest leader Ammon Bundy and seven other protesters who were arrested Tuesday. All face felony charges related to the occupation.
The group has been protesting U.S. federal land policies which they claim are illegal. CNN's Dan Simon has more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): More than three weeks after armed militia took over a federal wildlife refuge in Oregon, a deadly shootout between militia members and the police.
GREG BRETZING, SPECIAL AGENT IN CHARGE, FBI PORTLAND DIVISION: Yesterday, the FBI, with our partners took the first steps to bring this occupation to a conclusion.
SIMON: Group leader, Ammon Bundy, and seven others were arrested Tuesday night after the FBI and Oregon State Police pulled them over on their way to a meeting with community residents. Bundy's brother Ryan was shot and suffered minor wounds, but a spokesman for the armed occupiers, Lavoy Finicum, was killed.
DAVID WARD, SHERIFF, HARNEY COUNTY, OREGON: It's time for everybody in this illegal occupation to move on. There doesn't have to be bloodshed in our community.
SIMON: Bundy's father said his son called him from the back of a police cruiser moments after the shootout.
CLIVEN BUNDY, FATHER, AMMON BUNDY: My son Ryan had been shot in the arm. Lavoy Finicum, they cold-bloodedly killed him. He said he was out, had his hands in the air. Said he wasn't armed and wasn't any threat. They cold-bloodedly killed him.
SIMON: Authorities say Ryan Bundy and Finicum did not obey orders to surrender and shots were fired. The armed group took over the refuge on January 2nd, in part to protest the sentencing of two ranchers and to make a stand against what they called government overreach when it comes to federal lands.
AMMON BUNDY, PROTESTERS LEADER: They continue to ignore us and push us to the point where we felt we had to make a stand to defend our rights.
SIMON: Finicum previously told reporters he was willing to give his life for the cause.
LAVOY FINICUM, PROTESTERS: There for things more important than your life, and freedom is one of them.
SIMONS: The sheriff says he had been trying to work with the group to find a peaceful solution, but in the end, he just couldn't meet their ultimatums. WARD: We don't arm up and rebel. We work through the appropriate
channels. This can't happen anymore. This can't happen in America and it can't happen in Harney County.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SIMON: As things remain fragile here one particular note is that the federal complaint, which was unsealed today, mentions that authorities had reason to believe that the occupiers had explosives and night vision goggles. That is the first time we've heard that, but we should point out that we don't know if officials were actually able to verify the presence of explosives -- John and Isha.
SESAY: Our thanks to Dan Simon there.
Well, activists filed a federal lawsuit and an angry community wants answers. Coming up, what Michigan's governor tells CNN's Poppy Harlow about Flint's poisoned water.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POPPY HARLOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It can mean a decline in a child's IQ forever. Affect their behavior. It's linked to criminality. And it has multigenerational impacts. It can be passed on. Talk directly to the parents of Flint right now who have a child that is going to live with this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[01:31:58] SESAY: You're watching CNN NEWSROOM live from Los Angeles. I'm Isha Sesay.
VAUSE: I'm John Vause.
It's just gone 10:31 on a Wednesday night. Time to check the headlines.
(HEADLINES)
SESAY: A group of organizations is filing suit demanding that Flint, Michigan, do more water testing and replace all lead pipes. About two years ago, the state changed the city's water supply source.
VAUSE: High levels of lead were found, and then outraged the community asking whether its complaints were ignored because the people who live there are mostly black and poor.
Governor Rick Snyder spoke exclusively with Poppy Harlow.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
POPPY HARLOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Can the people of Flint today, as we sit here, can they drink the water?
GOV. RICK SNYDER (R), MICHIGAN: No. We don't want them to. And that's the terrible tragedy of all of this.
HARLOW: You said last week over 100 children here in Flint have high levels of lead in their blood. How many kids is it as we sit here today?
SNYDER: It's about 100 and some, if you go back over the last couple of years.
HARLOW: You're saying there's 100 children as of now, and there could be many, many more.
SNYDER: There could be many more, and we're assuming that.
HARLOW: That could mean a decline in a child's I.Q. forever, affect their behavior. It's linked to criminality and has multigenerational impacts. It can be passed on. Talk directly to the parents of Flint right now who have a child that is going to live with this.
SNYDER: Yeah. This is awful. And, again, our goal is to do whatever possible to minimize the damage, to help support them through that. This shouldn't have happened. Again, this is where there was a failure in government.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VAUSE: For more now on the water crisis in Flint and also some of the legal implications, we're joined now by Greg Mathis, host of "The Judge Mathis Show," and retired Michigan district court judge.
Judge Mathis, thank you for being with us.
SESAY: Welcome.
GREG MATHIS, RETIRED JUDGE & HOST, THE JUDGE MATHIS SHOW: Thank you.
[01:35:10] VAUSE: We want to get to some of the legal issues in a moment, but first, you know, from your perspective here, you grew up in Michigan and in Detroit. You spent some time in Flint and spent time in poor communities. You joined a street gang, all of this stuff. You know this area well.
MATHIS: Yeah.
VAUSE: How does this go from being a problem to developing into a crisis that no one really did anything about until now?
MATHIS: Well, what we do know is that when they switched the water over from Detroit, which accessed the Lake Huron, one of the best sources of water in the country, it was for economic reasons. And when they switched it over, they did not test it or apply the formulas that would reduce the toxins. And as a result, the people have been poisoned essentially. And I think a lot of it is because of the neglect that we see throughout the world of the poor, the marginalized, the minority, the black, the brown and the poor. And no one really cared. As we speak, there's not one shovel in the ground to try and correct the pipes or remove any of the corroded pipes that caused the problem. General Motors have removed their parts because they were being corroded. They couldn't even sell the parts, General Motors can't, because that's how much corrosion and toxic it was.
VAUSE: The water was so bad, and that's what people were drinking.
SESAY: Exactly. Not good enough for General Motors parts but good enough for people to put in their mouths.
As we talk about these marginalized communities, you now have concerns that the people of Flint can well be taken advantage of by lawyers. Tell us about your efforts to prevent that from happening.
MATHIS: Sure. This upcoming Saturday in Flint, I'm holding a forum. I have brought in some of the best lawyers in the country, not to solicit a case, not one client will be signed up, I've told those lawyers, but to give advice and direction on how to achieve justice. And so that I can then vet some of the lawyers who are coming in to try and take advantage of the situation. You know, Katrina, one of the biggest disasters there, was that -- or catastrophes in addition to the hurricane flooding, was the lawyers. The lawyers came in, and they converged on that city. And people walked away with $5,000, having lost all of their possessions. You even had the insurance companies, some insurance companies said, well, we can't compensate you because you didn't have hurricane insurance. And those that did have hurricane insurance, they said, well, we can't compensate you because it was a flood. So you're going to see some of that. And these folks have already been victimized, you're going to see some of those unscrupulous ones in the community.
And one of the reasons I thought of this is because I was listening to a radio ad by a lawyer that had come before me when I was a judge and was disbarred for incompetence.
VAUSE: Yeah. It's a mystery why they have a bad reputation, isn't it, some of them?
You say there's a lot of legal action there right now, some legitimate, some maybe not so much. One action which seems to have some teeth was filed by a group of religious leaders, environmentalists and community leaders, and it's being filed under the Safe Drinking Water Act alleging that this act has been violated by officials. And this one, I'm wondering, in your opinion, is this the one that could actually get real improvement here very quickly?
MATHIS: Yes. I think that's a credible group. The coalition that they have put together, all of those are committed activists for the most part. ACLU, I believe, is a part of that. Very well respected. Not for profit. And the other government agencies and bodies. I think they will get some justice there.
One of the other things I think we need in that coalition is someone to pursue more testing. There's been a very minimal amount of testing among young people and adults. And what we do now is that if you don't test them in a timely manner, the lead may not show up in their blood tests years later. However, the effects will.
SESAY: Judge Mathis, you talked just now about the pursuit of justice. What does justice look like for the people of Flint?
MATHIS: Well, justice looks like, one, pure water. Pure and clear water. Healthy water. Justice looks like getting health care for those who have been and will be affected in the future. That being educational support for those who might suffer from a developmental challenges as a result of this. Health support for those who may continue to endure rashes. Educational support for those who want to be prepared for higher education. We know that education is the way out of poverty. And if you have a city that is over 40 percent impoverished, and now the children will have educational challenges, you really are increasing the poverty and entrenching the poverty.
SESAY: You're condemning them to --
(CROSSTALK)
MATHIS: Absolutely.
VAUSE: 9,000 people have been drinking this water. At least 9,000 people. So there are a lot of problems ahead.
Judge, always a pleasure.
SESAY: Thank you so much.
[01:40:07] MATHIS: Thanks for having us and covering this big issue.
SESAY: Yeah, it certainly is.
Thank you, Judge.
VAUSE: A short break here. When we come back, for years, Australia has been sending migrants to camps on islands to be processed. In a CNN exclusive, you'll hear from one child who says those camps are like prisons.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VAUSE: Welcome back, everybody. Much like Europe, Australia has also been dealing with massive amounts of migrants trying to enter the country illegally. And the government has adopted a controversial policy
SESAY: Agents intercept boats of migrants and then asylum seekers are sent to Papua, New Guinea or to other tiny Pacific islands for processing.
Our own Ivan Watson spoke with some of the children in one of those camps and filed this exclusive report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Children searched with metal detectors, just one of the security measures imposed on scores of refugee and migrant children who were held for months and even years by the Australian government and one of their refugee detention centers on the Pacific island of Nauru.
(on camera): How old were you when you first got to the detention center?
UNIDENTIFIED BOY: I was 10.
WATSON: And now?
UNIDENTIFIED BOY: 12.
WATSON: Now you're 12?
(voice-over): This boy is a member of Myanmar's increasingly persecuted Muslim minority, whose family tried years ago to reach Australia by boat. They were intercepted by Australian authorities, who brought them to what she calls a prison.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: These are friends all around the camps.
WATSON (on camera): Is this is a good place for children?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. It's the worst place I have ever seen for children.
[01:45:00] WATSON (voice-over): As of last December, there were at least 68 children out of a total of 537 detainees being held at this facility on an island with just 21 square kilometers of territory.
The Australian government established this controversial detention center as a response to the tens of thousands of refugees and migrants who embarked on smuggler's boats in a dangerous effort to reach Australian shores. Instead of keeping them in Australia, the authorities shipped hundreds of migrants and refugees to this camp in an isolated, economically underdeveloped Pacific nation.
Australia's immigration minister declined CNN's request for an interview. But in a statement to CNN, a government spokesman said, "Stopping the boats has enabled this government to return integrity to Australia's humanitarian and refugee program, and that Australia and its partners comply with all international obligations and treaties."
(on camera): We wanted to go to Nauru to check out the camp ourselves, but it's not easy. First, the government of Nauru requires a $5,800 nonrefundable journalist visa application fee per person. And it says it does not want foreign journalists on this small island.
Second, the Australian government forbids journalists from filming or interviewing detainees at its camps so we've interviewed seven current and former camp residents remotely about what it's like for children to live in this detention center.
SARAH HANSSON YOUNG, AUSTRALIAN LAWMAKER: I'm one of the few people who has ever really been able to go into the camp and walk around and talk to families inside. No journalists were allowed in. There is very little information let out of the camp. And staff who work at the center are essentially gagged. WATSON: Sarah Hansson Young is an Australian lawmaker who has lobbied
to shut the camp down.
YOUNG: There's absolutely no way that the Australian government can justify keeping families, particularly women and children, in these camps. They can't guarantee their safety.
WATSON: Children in the Nauru camp suffer from extreme levels of emotional and psychological distress, Australian government reports concluded. They also documented cases of sexual assault, saying that the children should be removed.
Australia says it's listening to the recommendations. In recent months, Australian and Nauru authorities have taken steps to open the camp up.
Among the lucky few to be settled out of the Nauru camp last month, 12-year-old Nisba Ahmed (ph), who started a Facebook campaign to draw attention to the plight of children stranded in Nauru. Dozens of children still live in the camp's moldy tents.
Despite her long incarceration, she says her family still dreams of one day reaching the country that imprisoned her.
NISBA AHMED (ph), LIVES AT NAURU CAMP: We just want to go to Australia and make our future bright.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(WEATHER REPORT)
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[01:51:57] SESAY: Hello, everyone. U.S. President Barack Obama is weighing in on the controversy surrounding the Oscars this year.
VAUSE: Critics are complaining that the awards ceremony lacks diversity because many of the nominees in the top categories are all white. A reporter with the Los Angeles television station, KVCR, asked him about that controversy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think that California is an example of the incredible diversity of this country. That's a strength. And I think that when everybody's story is told, then that makes for better art. It makes for better entertainment. It makes everybody feel part of one American family. As a whole, the industry should do what every other industry should do, which is to look for talent and provide opportunity to everybody. And I think the Oscar debate is really just an expression of this broader issue of, are we making sure that everybody is getting a fair shot?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SESAY: The president weighing in. VAUSE: Yeah. And a fair point.
SESAY: Absolutely. Well said.
Now Donald Trump -- let's talk about that man dominating the news cycle -- has made it clear he is not going to the FOX News debate.
VAUSE: But when a front-runner skips a debate, they better be prepared for some criticism.
CNN's Jeanne Moos reports on the plight of the no show.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: But he is a chaos candidate.
JEANNE MOOS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Donald ducks debate. When others do it, opponents occasionally deploy quacking.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Refusing to debate.
(QUACKING)
MOOS: No shows get no respect. Since Trump opted out, one commenter suggested FOX News set up an empty podium with a potato wearing a blonde toupee.
The empty podium, or chair, is the usual way to embarrass a no-show from a debate to pick the prime minister of Spain to American news shows.
UNIDENTIFIED NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Terrified, now cowardly lawyer representing George Zimmerman has left that chair empty and run out of our studio.
UNIDENTIFIED NEWS CORRESPONDENT: A gutless little twerp.
MOOS (on camera): So will FOX drag out an extra podium and leave it smack center stage to shame the Donald?
(voice-over): No. FOX News has confirmed to CNN that it will not set up an empty left turn, so at least the Donald won't get Eastwooded, as when Clint addressed an empty chair representing President Obama.
CLINT EASTWOOD, ACTOR: What do you want me to tell Romney? I can't tell him to do that.
(LAUGHTER)
He can't do that to himself.
(LAUGHTER)
MOOS: But it's not just no shows who get reproached by the empty podium. It's late shows, too.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We believe Hillary Clinton will be coming around the corner at any minute.
MOOS: A few seconds late at the restroom sure put the "P" in podium.
HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Sorry.
(LAUGHTER)
MOOS (on camera): As if this empty podium isn't enough of a rebuke, imagine a moment of silence.
(voice-over): A candidate for president of Argentina used 30 seconds of his time in silence to draw attention to the empty podium of the leading candidate who refused to debate and lost.
But Donald Trump, take heart. At least if you don't show up at a podium, you can't take it with you, as Italy's former prime minister did. Like the Donald, he kept talking.
Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[01:55:23] SESAY: Oh, dear.
VAUSE: What are the chances if you're going to put a bet that Donald Trump could still turn up on Thursday night, that he will -- there will be some kind of compromise reached in the coming hours that everything's fine? FOX gets huge ratings. Donald Trump continues to command the presence and the airwaves and the story and everything. And this has all been a scam.
SESAY: I think he's going to turn up.
VAUSE: Really?
SESAY: Yes, I do actually, because I think it lends to this line of, you know, how magnanimous he is and forgiving, and he can work with those who slighted him.
VAUSE: Right.
SESAY: I see him turning up.
VAUSE: We'll do the veterans thing the other day. Or they could have an empty chair like Elijah on Passover, just sort of mark it there for Donald Trump.
SESAY: Yes, they could do that.
VAUSE: You're watching CNN NEWSROOM live from Los Angeles. I think we're going. I'm John Vause.
SESAY: And I'm Isha Sesay.
For our viewers in North America, "Amanpour" is next.
For everyone else, the news continues with Errol Barnett right after this.
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