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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Fox's Trumpless Debate; Man Arrested at Disneyland Paris; Rezaian Speaks to Coworkers; Cruz Hitting Iowa. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired January 28, 2016 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00] KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Custody. A lot more to be learned there. We're going to have more details as they come in.

But thank you guys so much for joining us AT THIS HOUR.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: "Legal View" with Ashleigh Banfield starts now.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield. And welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

Time is running out for either side to blink in this controversy that's now consuming the GOP race for president. I'm speaking, of course, of Donald Trump's refusal to take center stage, or any stage for that matter, at Fox News' debate tonight in Des Moines, Iowa. Trump plans, at least for now anyway, to host an alternative event billed as a special event for veterans, which one of America's leading veterans' organizations happens to want no part of. The Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America declared last night that, quote, "if offered," it will, quote, "decline donations from Trump's event." The group says, quote, "we need strong policies from candidates, not to be used for political stunts."

You may know, Trump's nearest rival, Texas Senator Ted Cruz, has set up his own alternative event, a one-on-one debate with Donald Trump. He wants it to be on Saturday. And he's offering money to vets, too. And now some very deep-pocketed Cruz supporters say that money amounts to $1.5 million to Trump's favorite veterans' charities if the real estate mogul decides to show up.

Not to be outdone, Carly Fiorina jumped in saying that she'll kick in the same amount to take part in a Trump-Cruz debate. And $2 million to debate Trump tonight. Trump is essentially mocking the Cruz challenge, suggesting a debate take place in Canada.

As for the Fox event, Trump predicts a, quote, "total disaster, low ratings and advertising rates dropping like a rock," he says in a tweet. And he continues to say, "I hate to see this." You tweeted out yet? Because I want to bring in my colleague, CNN's Phil Mattingly, who's live in Des Moines, Iowa, trying to keep up with the tweets and the events all at the same time. And then live here in New York, our senior media correspondent, Brian Stelter.

Phil, first to you. We know for a fact that at least the big event tonight, the Iowa debate, the GOP debate, will not have an empty podium. Fox has confirmed they don't mean to mock him, so they're not going to put an empty Trump podium up there. But what else do we know about the plans for this debate?

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we know right now that losing their frontrunner obviously isn't something Fox wanted, but it's something that's almost certainly going to happen. There's been a lot of kind of questions, whether or not Donald Trump will make a late entrance. Jeb Bush saying yesterday that he actually bet somebody $20 that Donald Trump would end up showing up. Not likely. Pretty much guaranteed not to happen. The venue that they've scheduled for tonight, they've signed the papers on it. That's a done deal. They sold out tickets to that event last night in less than two hours, according to Trump officials. So that event is definitely going to happen.

What that means about the event that's going to be going on behind me here in a couple hours is going to be really interesting to watch. The dynamic with Ted Cruz really kind of turning into the frontrunner on the stage, how people attack him, or perhaps most importantly, how Ted Cruz tries to attack Donald Trump, even though Trump won't be there to respond, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Phil, I know it's hard to ask every Iowan how he or she feels about all of this childish back and forth between everybody. But generally speaking, is there a bit of (INAUDIBLE) in the air about how Iowans are reflecting all of this? Or is this all just a bunch of media hot air that the Iowans don't care a hoot about?

MATTINGLY: You know, I think what's interesting, Ashleigh, is how candidates are trying to use this to push Iowans away from Donald Trump. Now when you talk to people - I was at a Ted Cruz town hall last night. A lot of people very frustrated about Donald Trump's rise. And I think there was a recognition amongst Cruz's supporters that Cruz could do very well here. He will do very well here. But Donald Trump is the person standing in his way and could really set his campaign back if he wins in a big way over the next couple - over the next couple days.

One thing to keep in mind, Ashleigh, four days left until the caucuses. Donald Trump has sucked all of the oxygen out of the room. So voters who care, voters who want to hear from other candidates, you're not going to be able to turn on a TV or look at a newspaper and get that. I think there is some frustration with that amongst the voters. But most certainly frustration, Ashleigh, within the campaigns, who just want to get their candidates out and noticed right now.

BANFIELD: Yes. And then there's, of course, people who want to hear the issues. They actually want to hear the issues about, you know, what their candidates or potential candidates are actually putting forth for the presidency.

Phil, stand by for a second.

Brian Stelter, come in on this, if you will. Last night it was another I mean quasi spectacle seeing Donald Trump actually - and I will give him this - showing up for his promised interview with Bill O'Reilly last night despite all of this going down. But it almost looked like it was a begging fest. It seemed like it was - it was odd.

[12:05:13] BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: It did. It seemed like Fox was pleading for him to show up to the debate. Trump was not giving one inch. He was not saying he was going to attend. There was also some strangeness about this, I think, because of the dynamic between Bill O'Reilly, who's on at 8:00, and Megyn Kelly, who's on at 9:00. Let's take a look at part of that interview from last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL O'REILLY, FOX ANCHOR: But I think you should be the bigger man and say, you know what, I didn't like it, and you should make that case all day long. But I'm not going to take any action against it. You know, don't you think that's the right thing to do?

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It probably is. But, you know, it's called an eye for an eye, I guess, also. You could look at it that way. But it probably is.

O'REILLY: No, no, no, you - for that Old Testament -

TRUMP: I don't take it seriously. Bill -

O'REILLY: No, no, no, no, if you're the Christian, the eye for the eye rule goes out.

TRUMP: You are taking it -

O'REILLY: Here's - here's what it is, turning the other cheek. Right here.

TRUMP: Bill, Bill, let me tell you, you're taking this much more seriously than I am.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STELTER: Seemed a bit to me like O'Reilly was begging there, Ashleigh, begging for Trump to appear at the debate. It's also interesting to me that Trump - that O'Reilly it not really defend Megyn Kelly, did not really take the opportunity to challenge Trump about the vicious attacks against Megyn Kelly. I can tell there is a civil war of sorts inside Fox.

BANFIELD: Really?

STELTER: Bill O'Reilly does not like Megyn Kelly. There - there is some - there's some strong feelings there, partly because she does pretty well in the ratings and Bill O'Reilly does not necessarily appreciate that. I don't think it's a two sided thing. I don't think Megyn Kelly necessarily doesn't like Bill O'Reilly, but there is sort of hostility between the 8:00 p.m. and 9:00 p.m. hosts. So even though you have this Trump/Fox News war, you also have some tensions internally. BANFIELD: Well, and, you know, watching it, I found myself getting

sucked right into it, just like I would a circus.

STELTER: Yes. Right.

BANFIELD: And then realizing, what the hell am I watching? This is the president we're looking to elect. This is not some - some joke or some reality TV show or - it just seemed all so incredibly foolish.

STELTER: Sometimes when you look at his Twitter feed, I have the same reaction. Donald Trump this morning retweeting fans of his who were attacking Megyn Kelly and sometimes posting conspiratorial comments that are completely false. And I have to tell you, you read a tweet from him also a few minutes about him saying the advertising rates for this, that they are -

BANFIELD: Yes, the low ratings, advertisers and advertising rates dropping like a rock.

STELTER: Dropping like a rock.

BANFIELD: Come on! That is not true. It's not how the machine works.

STELTER: And I can tell you for a fact that it's not true. And I've just heard from Fox News confirming that. Fox News telling me the debate is completely sold out and the ad rates were locked in well ahead of time. And that's also true for at CNN or MSNBC, all the cable channels, all the TV news networks.

What happens is, when ads are sold, they're sold weeks or months ahead of time for a special event like a debate. You can't go and change the ad rates 12 hours beforehand. So Trump is not right when he says the debate ad rates are falling like a rock. It is true the ratings might be lower when he's not on the stage. This is the ultimate test for Trump's rating's power.

BANFIELD: But it doesn't - yes. You can have a bad night. It is not going to affect the business of one night of -

STELTER: Right.

BANFIELD: Even if it is a bad night.

STELTER: But, you know, it does show, he's trying to hurt Fox where it counts.

BANFIELD: Yes.

STELTER: With ratings and with money. We'll see how much of that business tactic works or doesn't work.

BANFIELD: I've got to say - I've got to hand it to Bill O'Reilly for looking right at him and saying, shouldn't the president not get personal? Because the president gets attacked every single day. And if you take it personally every single time someone's going to attack you, you're not going to get any business done and you're going to be exhausted. I mean it just seemed to me all so silly.

STELTER: In some ways, though, I think Trump is using journalists like a foil the way -

BANFIELD: Yes.

STELTER: Usual politicians have their rivals in D.C., he uses journalists and media figures to show how tough he is.

BANFIELD: You get sucked in, I'm - I'm going to - I'm not going to lie. It certainly happens.

Brian Stelter, thank you.

STELTER: Thanks.

BANFIELD: And, Phil Mattingly, thank you to you as well.

I want to get us to some breaking news as well that's coming from overseas. A man carrying two handguns has been arrested at Disneyland Paris. This apparently happened at the entrance to a hotel that's located at the amusement park. We've got our Diana Magnay, who is live on location right now.

Diana, give me the details of what they found. Who is this person and what do we know about him?

DIANA MAGNAY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Ashleigh, we know that he's a 28- year-old Paris resident. The police are telling us that he's not known to them or to the intelligence services. And he was going through security at this hotel in Euro Disney, which is just east of Paris, and two handguns were found on him, some ammunition and also a copy of the Koran.

We're also hearing that there was a woman who was with him at the time who is still at large. That apparently she ran away when he was arrested by security. And at the moment, the car that he was driving has been cordoned off by police, and they are searching - they have a bomb disposal unit there who are searching that car.

So that's all we have at the moment. This is, of course, critical for a country that's in quite a lot of panic, really, about its security situation. They are still in a state of emergency after the Paris attacks. So you can imagine the kind of feeling that this arrest generates.

So just to recap, a man, 28-year-old Paris resident, not known to police, carrying two handguns, ammunition, and a Koran, arrested today just at Euro Disney.

[12:10:01] Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: And then as you - as you mentioned, this female accomplice. I just want to make sure people are aware that while they may have captured that man, there is a female accomplice who was able to get away. They noticed her as they were making the arrest and she was able to get away. So they are continuing to search for that accomplice.

Diana Magnay, thank you for that. Continue to report to us as you get more information from security sources there.

Breaking news also, journalist Jason Rezaian speaking to colleagues after making his long-awaited return to "The Washington Post." This, of course, after being recently released as part of that historic prisoner swap with Iran. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The biggest thing we have to celebrate, the most exciting news for everyone at "The Washington Post," is the release and return of our colleague and friend, Jason Rezaian.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Pretty dramatic. Rezaian attending an event - a special event for "The Post." And alongside Rezaian, also the secretary of state, John Kerry, who also addressed this crowd.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JASON REZAIAN, SPENT 500+ DAYS IN IRANIAN PRISON: This is really wonderful to be here. I've prepared a few words and I hope you don't mind if I read. I've not been around a crowd for a very long time, so - I'm honored to be a part of this ceremony marking the next chapter in the history of "The Washington Post." For much of the 18 months I was in prison, my Iranian interrogators told me that "The Washington Post" did not exist, that no one knew of my plight, and that the United States government would not lift a finger for my release. Today I'm here in this room with the very people who helped prove the Iranians wrong in so many ways.

Each day since my release, I learned more about the efforts to gain our freedom, which began the moment Yegi and I were taken from our home and continue on in support of our reintroduction into the world. There's so many people to thank.

I'm truly fortunate to have this opportunity to thank Secretary Kerry and Ambassador Brett McGurk, who negotiated with the Iranians for my release and who constantly advocated on my behalf within the U.S. government. No other country would do so much for an ordinary citizen. And I know that.

To my colleagues at "The Post," you guys are all awesome. There's so many of you who I want to talk to, and I hope we'll have time to do that over the coming weeks and months. But just knowing the lengths you all went to, to keep my story alive, is truly humbling and should make us all proud to be a part of the future of "The Washington Post."

And lastly, I want to thank my family. My heroes, actually. My mom, Mary. My brother, Ali. And my wife, Yegi. You guys mean everything to me. And I'm just happy to be home with you.

Thank you very much. Thanks. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Very emotional. Just imagine, a year-and-a-half in custody of the Iranians. And if you want the exact number, that's 545 days.

I want to talk more about this with CNN's chief national security correspondent, Jim Sciutto, who joins me live.

That was so emotional, and yet I know there's so much more that Jason is going to say at some point. Walk me through today's event and when we're going to learn more about Jason's story.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, let's talk about today. Emotional, not just for Jason Rezaian. You heard him there. Our viewers saw him choking back tears as he said his first words since he was freed. But John Kerry, when he spoke as well, he paused for a moment, he paused again as tears weld up in his eyes. This was a very personal case, certainly for "The Washington Post," for Jason's colleagues, for his family, who's been battling through this, for his wife, who was sitting next to him here today crying as well, but also for Secretary of State John Kerry, who was helping lead the U.S. efforts to get him freed.

You know, it's interesting, though, Jason is a remarkable character. You heard him there make a little joke about how this is the first time he's been in front of a crowd. A little bit of a humorous reference to the fact that he was in solitary confinement for a good portion of those more than 500 days in Iran. Also taking a moment, we heard a similar thing from Amir Hekmati when he was freed. The sense that even when they were behind bars, they were told by their captors that the U.S. wasn't doing anything about it, when, in fact, they found out later that the U.S. was, and that that was a matter of pride for them.

Secretary of State John Kerry spoke of it in military terms. He said, he's a veteran himself. You never leave a soldier behind. And in this case, you never leave an American behind, an American journalist behind here. But we also heard Secretary of State John Kerry talk about how the nervousness - the nerve-racking side of this continued right up to the final moments, those final hours last weekend when he was freed. Here's what John Kerry had to say.

[12:15:17] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KERRY, SECRETARY OF STATE: Despite all of that effort for everybody, this gnawed at us because we sensed the wrongfulness and we knew that Jason and others were living the consequences, 545 days. So I will tell you, frankly, that a week ago on Saturday was really one of the days that I enjoyed the most as secretary of state. It was also perhaps the most nerve-racking.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Since they didn't know, in those final hours, that Jason's wife was missing. They couldn't find them. They couldn't find his mother. As we've reported, it was 12 hours later. They - they were being held, in fact, by another faction in Iran that didn't want them to go. Just a final phrase that Secretary of State John Kerry used. He said that this gnawed at us. Jason's detention, the other Americans' detention, gnawed at the U.S. and they fought hard to get them out. And this is a success. And it's remarkable I'll say, Ashleigh, having covered this from the beginning, to watch the happy ending to this story.

BANFIELD: Yes, it sure is. And amazing, amazing, Jim, to hear that he knew nothing about the efforts back home. Instead was told, no one's lifting a finger for you. Just so - so harrowing.

Thank you, Jim Sciutto, for us live in D.C.

I want to take us now back to the race for the White House because coming up next, with Trump bowing out, that means Ted Cruz gets the center podium. So he is in the spotlight. But will the spotlight turn into a target? Oh, this has got to be a really rough day, unless you're a master debater like Ted Cruz.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:21:02] BANFIELD: Republican Senator Ted Cruz is going to be in some unfamiliar territory tonight at the GOP debate in Des Moines, Iowa, center stage, center podium. Assuming, that is, of course, Donald Trump really does go ahead and not show up, right? Because if he changes his mind, he gets the podium back.

Right now Trump's lead over Senator Cruz and the rest of the Republican pack is very clear. These few days before the Iowa caucuses, there's a big window between them. This poll is just Iowa. Trump with a seven-point lead over Ted Cruz in that state. And Cruz has been hammering Iowa, promising to visit all 99 counties before the first actual votes of the election season are cast in the caucuses on Monday.

Rick Tyler's with me now. He speaks for the Cruz campaign.

Mr. Tyler, thank you so much for being on this show. Center podium!

RICK TYLER, CRUZ CAMPAIGN SPOKESMAN: Glad to be here.

BANFIELD: I can - it's great to have you. I can only imagine that your guy is thrilled to have that center podium. He was Princeton's speaker of the year back in '92 in college debating. He is masterful at the art of debate. But is he going to be in the spotlight or is he going to have a bull's eye on him?

TYLER: Probably a little bit of both. You know, we - he's worked really hard to get to the center. He was on the edges. And our campaign is all about - been warning hard and gaining support. And these debates have been really terrific for us because millions of people got to see Senator Cruz and many didn't know Senator Cruz before and they've gotten to know him, they've gotten to like him because he's the original outsider. He's the - he's the outsider that went inside and didn't back down and stood up to the establishment, stood up to his own party. And so, yes, we'll be in the - we'll be at center stage. I'm confident

in his ability. All these debates have been terrific for him, and I'm looking forward to a good debate tonight.

BANFIELD: So, Rick, there's that argument between having the guy who sucks all the oxygen out of the room, literally out of the room, so that there's more oxygen for your guy and the other guys. Then there's the argument that that guy who sucks the oxygen also sucks in a lot of eyeballs. Do you worry that this debate tonight will, as Donald Trump puts it, fail and be miserable because he's not there to bring in the viewers?

TYLER: No, that sounds like something typical that Donald Trump would say. I'm not going to worry about what Donald Trump says or does over the course of the campaign any more. Look, he can act erratic and put all the attention on himself and put himself in front of the country. We're not going to - we're not going to plan our execution of our campaign that way.

But I think it's a mistake for Donald Trump not to be there. And he owes the voters of Iowa and everybody watching tonight to let people see himself against the other candidates. And then that's how people can choose.

So, look, I think we'll do fine in the debates tonight. I don't worry about losing the audience. I'll tell you why. Because I will give Donald Trump credit. He's brought a lot of new eyeballs to this debate and people have gotten used to watching the debates and I think they're going to watch tonight, even with - even though Donald Trump's not there. So he brought the audience, but he's not going to have the benefit of bring it - of being on stage when the audience is still going to be watching the debate.

BANFIELD: Yes, is it going to move the needle, though? Look, if - even if your guy - Ted Cruz has a great night, is this going to make any difference when there's such a spread between him and the frontrunner, Donald Trump?

TYLER: Not here in Iowa. We believe that we're - we're either a parity, or maybe even slightly ahead. I do know that we have a ground game that's second to none. We've got 12,000 volunteers out here, we've got 800 people who have stayed at Camp Cruz, that's a dormitory, a couple dormitories not far from here, and people get up at 7:00 in the morning and they go out and knock on doors. So we're knocking on an average of 2,000 doors a day, making 20,000 phone calls a day, doing it the old fashioned Iowa way. We're going to do, complete, as you said, the 99 counties. Ted Cruz has shaken far more hands, looked more people in the eye and let - let voters here in Iowa -

BANFIELD: You've got to do that.

TYLER: Yep.

BANFIELD: You know -

TYLER: Size 'em up, face-to-face. Donald Trump has done none of those things.

BANFIELD: Rick, I've got - you've got to be really honest with me about this, OK?

TYLER: OK.

BANFIELD: Because there are a lot of folks in the Republican establishment and throughout the party, as well, who said none of this would have been necessary. None of this battle would have been necessary had the rest of the candidates spent more money early on attacking Donald Trump. But no one did. For whatever their reasons, they might have been worried he'd attack them back, they might have thought it wasn't necessary, that he'd implode. But now you have the man that effectively these people say you made. And they say Ted Cruz in particular is most to blame because not only did he not spend money to attack Donald Trump, he embraced him and bromanced him right up to the lead. Does your guy regret that now?

[12:25:37] TYLER: No, not at all. And - because campaigns don't work that way. Campaigns work - first you need to - first you've got to have name I.D. People got to know who you are. Then they've got to - then they've got to like you. People don't vote for people they don't like. Then they've got to know what you stand for. And then they want to know the difference between you and the other candidates. And so that's the process. You can't skip a step.

Those who tried to skip a step are not even in the race any more. If they attack Donald Trump, Donald Trump came into this race with 100 percent name I.D. He was a reality TV star. He was a known quantity. He wasn't who he really is. That's the problem with Donald Trump now. People are finding out who he really is. And so we're telling people all week and the week before who he is and going forward. He is a progressive liberal. He has had - he has supported TARP, he's supported stimulus, supported amnesty, supported gay marriage, supported partial birth abortion. He's not who he is.

BANFIELD: And, Rick, I've got to ask you. Sorry to interrupt.

TYLER: Yes, sure.

BANFIELD: Sorry to interrupt, but we've just got some news here that a spokesman for Mike Huckabee has told our Jim Acosta that he's going to attend Trump's counter programming event, but that he'll do the undercard debate first. I don't know that there's any chance for overlie here, but if there is a chance for Ted Cruz to finish up the debate and still make the tail end of Donald Trump's event, would he do it?

TYLER: I don't see any reason we'd go to Donald Trump's event. He can - he can - he should come to the debate. And we've offered for him to debate us on Saturday. And we set a time. And if Donald Trump is afraid of Megyn Kelly or Fox News or whoever else, we're happy to debate him one-on-one. And so that invitation is still open. We've not heard from them.

BANFIELD: I've got an invitation for you to be on the show tomorrow if you're free at 12:00 Noon Eastern Time.

TYLER: Love to do it. Thank you.

BANFIELD: Good to have you. Rick Tyler, thank you so much and best of luck to you and the others tonight.

TYLER: Thanks.

BANFIELD: Coming up next, the World Health Organization is warning the Zika virus is now spreading explosively. Their words. And it's spreading around the Americas. We're going to tell you why you might consider listening up, especially if you're pregnant, or thinking about getting pregnant any time in the future. Dr. Sanjay Gupta joining me live, next.

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