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New Hampshire Race; Interview With North Carolina Congressman Mark Meadows; Trump vs. Cruz. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired February 03, 2016 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:01]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: First, we learned this morning that Senator Rand Paul would be dropping.

And now we are getting word -- this is all -- according to our host John King -- that it is former Pennsylvania Senator Rick Santorum who also will be dropping out. Watching and waiting to see who then he throws his support behind.

Let me play you some sound really quickly as we wait to talk with Dana Bash. She just caught up with Marco Rubio reacting to the Santorum news.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DANA BASH, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Rick Santorum is going to drop out of the race. He's going to endorse. Is he going to endorse you?

SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R-FL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I don't know. I haven't spoken to Rick today or since the end of race.

BASH: Would you like his endorsement?

RUBIO: Sure. I think -- I'm a huge admirer of Rick Santorum's. I think he's fantastic.

But like I said, I haven't even heard these reports, so I don't even know if they are true.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: All right. We will talk to Dana Bash here, as she is now getting reaction, as we are learning that Rick Santorum will be dropping out.

Let me now bring in Mark Meadows, North Carolina congressman supporting Ted Cruz.

So, Congressman, nice to see you, sir.

REP. MARK MEADOWS (R), NORTH CAROLINA: It's great to see you. Thanks so much. Great to be with you.

BALDWIN: Good deal. Let's begin with this news here that Santorum is the next to fall. First, your response to that?

MEADOWS: Well, Senator Santorum is a personal friend, a good man.

Obviously, we have campaigned together. He is somebody who I respect and the vast majority of Americans respect. And so he has elevated the debate. And so I'm sad to see him go. But as we start to coalesce around a few candidates, it was expected, not that he would be stepping out now, but he's certainly a very capable, articulate individual.

BALDWIN: He won Iowa, as you well know, the last go-around. He has a strong following, especially among the highly coveted evangelical bloc.

I'm wondering if anyone from the Ted Cruz camp has reached out to Senator Santorum. Is this an endorsement you would support?

MEADOWS: Well, it's certainly an endorsement I would support. I hope that Senator Santorum considers Ted Cruz.

Obviously, their values are greatly aligned, not just with evangelicals, but with the vast majority of grassroots, certainly in North Carolina, where I'm from. But from Florida to New York to California, it's really those conservative solutions that Americans are looking for. They want to make sure that Main Street is taken care of, not K Street.

BALDWIN: Congressman Meadows, do me a favor, please, sir, and just stand by.

I'm going to pivot back to Dana Bash, who is also standing by with some news from the Rand Paul campaign.

Hello, Dana Bash. What do you know?

BASH: Hey there, Brooke.

Well, it's kind of a wild day. I know, as you mentioned, Rick Santorum, we understand, is going to drop out. And Rand Paul made it formal that he is going to drop out. We haven't heard anything about any endorsements from either of them yet.

But on the Santorum side, we can tell you that he is planning on making an endorsement to one of his now former competitors. I know that you played some moments that I had with Marco Rubio here at the event where he was just moments ago. He said that he is not sure if he's going to get the endorsement. But he obviously wants that.

One of the reasons I asked him is because the thinking is it is likely to be either Marco Rubio or Donald Trump. And, Brooke, you remember in Iowa the night that Donald Trump blew off the FOX debate after Rick Santorum and Mike Huckabee went to the undercard debate, they showed up at Donald Trump's event for veterans.

So that's one of the several reasons why the thinking is that he could help them. And the other question you might be asking is why does it matter, because he didn't really get that much support? But look for any of these candidates, particularly someone like Donald Trump or Marco Rubio, who, you know, want to have somebody who has credentials, especially among movement conservatives. That's not something that they would turn away.

BALDWIN: OK, listen, it's a wild day. But would we have it any differently, Dana Bash? This is why we love our jobs and covering politics. Dana, thank you so much.

BASH: Yes.

BALDWIN: We heard the Marco Rubio sound, thanks to you.

Let me talk about Donald Trump. Donald Trump is accusing Ted Cruz of fraud and stealing the Iowa caucuses.

Actually, Dana, let me just stay with you, and then, Congressman, I will get your response as well. This is the latest tweet from Donald Trump. "The state of Iowa should disqualify Ted Cruz from the most recent election on the basis that he cheated. A total fraud."

We have now, as we follow Twitter in 2016 with these candidates, Ted Cruz has responded, saying, "Yet another #Trumpertantrum. @realDonaldTrump very angry with the people of Iowa. They actually looked at his record."

Before we get to the congressman, Dana, #Trumpertantrum, what's going on here?

[15:05:04]

BASH: What's going on here is, you are having a fight between these two guys who we should probably remind our viewers not that long ago had this bromance.

BALDWIN: Total bromance.

BASH: They promised not to go after one another, but total bromance. That is long, long gone. They broke up and they are never getting back together, because Donald Trump, he got -- he got beaten. That's just the bottom line.

And he was very, very contrite, very gracious the night of the Iowa caucuses when he came out and spoke. But now a couple of days have passed and he is doing what he has done so well when it comes to getting attention over the past several months, which is going on Twitter and making himself and making whatever he's talking about part of the story.

I can tell you I was at a Cruz event this morning and the Cruz campaign are incredibly frustrated. They are being tongue in cheek in their public announcements, but they're frustrated, asking, why are they ever to -- why is Donald Trump kind of rule the news cycle?

The answer is when somebody like Donald Trump accuses one of his competitors of fraud, that is a story. And so he is definitely trying to keep alive this idea that Ted Cruz, the night of the caucuses, sent a notice to his precinct captains around and his supporters around Iowa saying that Ben Carson was going to drop out of the race or suggesting that to be the case, which was not true.

And so that's where this whole thing is rooted. And it is not going to go away, at least and until the two of them kind of bloody and battle it outgoing forward in New Hampshire and beyond.

BALDWIN: So, Dana, thank you.

Back to Congressman Meadows, you know, who is endorsing Ted Cruz.

Dana makes a good point, in this leveling a fraud allegation is entirely serious and thus merits news coverage. But then when you need the Ted Cruz response and tweet, yes, tongue in cheek but, still, Trumper tantrum? You work hard to serve the good people of North Carolina. This is politics? Are you embarrassed by this at all?

MEADOWS: I mean, it's politics, but I think that that's what the American people are tired of. I can tell you, I know Ted personally.

He's an honorable man. Certainly, as you start to see all of these things that are coming out, we really need to change our focus back to where it belongs, on the American people and the will of the American people. And yet so much is going back and forth and allegations made.

I think it's time that we look really to the central focus, is about national security, keeping Americans, making sure that they have jobs, and making sure that Main Street is more important than Washington, D.C.

BALDWIN: Listen, I hear you loud and clear. And I think a lot of Americans would agree with you on those issues should be front and center.

But staying in the story, in the wake of Iowa with that in the rear view and looking ahead to New Hampshire and the fact that even though this may not go anywhere, Donald Trump making points about these two incidents, one, the Cruz mailers, right, that voter violation mailer that the Cruz campaign sent out, and, number two, you know, that the Cruz surrogates, as Dana was reporting, suggesting to caucus-goers Monday night that Carson was dropping out, which, by the way, Ted Cruz apologized for, this isn't going away.

MEADOWS: Well, that's part of it. But, interestingly enough, in this new social media, instant message world that we live in...

BALDWIN: Which these candidates are engaging in, by the way.

MEADOWS: And they are. And so they can pick up a report from CNN or whomever it may be. It goes viral very quickly because it's news. Everybody wants to beat everyone else to the punch.

And, really, Senator Ted Cruz was very humble, apologized for that. Certainly, wanting to verify that is a critical component on anything that you have that is newsworthy. But I would suggest this, that when we start to focus on those kinds of things, apology made, hope the apology accepted, let's focus on the things that are important, on how do we defeat ISIS, how do we make sure that moms and dads can put food on the table?

And this is politics as usual that people are tired of both here in Washington, D.C., and across the nation.

BALDWIN: Congressman Meadows, I'm being told in my ear that Senator Cruz is actually speaking right now.

So, let's hit pause on our conversation and let's just dip in and take a listen to what he has to say.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: For Bernie Sanders- style socialized medicine. Donald wants to expand Obamacare, so that the federal government is in charge of your health care and my health care, is in charge of your doctor and my doctor.

Now, he's entitled to that view. It is a view that would be very welcome in the Democratic Party. It's a view that both Hillary and Bernie Sanders support. But it is exactly opposite of my view. My view is if I'm elected president, we're going to reveal every word of Obamacare.

Donald doesn't want to discuss that issue, doesn't want to discuss his support for eminent domain, for taking private property and giving it to giant corporations and casinos. So, instead, he engages in insults.

[15:10:08]

I think the people are interested in substance and record and a positive optimistic vision.

BASH: Well, this line of attack, though, he is calling you a cheater, he is calling you a fraud. Does this cross the line for you?

CRUZ: Listen, Donald's insults get more and more hysterical the more and more upset he gets. And that's fine. He can do that. I'm not going to respond in kind.

QUESTION: Do you think they are funny?

CRUZ: I think they are very funny.

I think Donald -- I wake up every day and laugh at the latest thing Donald has tweeted, because he's losing it. Look, we need a commander in chief, not a Twitterer in chief. We need someone with judgment and the temperament to keep this country safe.

I don't know anyone who would be comfortable with someone who behaves this way having his finger on the button. I mean, we're liable to wake up one morning and Donald if he were president would have nuked Denmark. That's not the temperament of a leader to keep this country safe.

We need a president who will have the back of our fighting men and women, who will have their back, and will be clear-eyed and focused on our enemies, on radical Islamic terrorists and on defeating ISIS. That's what I will do every day.

And the American people are not interested in this circus sideshow of insults. You know, my girls are 5 and 7. And I have got to tell you, Caroline and Catherine are better behaved than a presidential candidate who responds by insulting everyone every day.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

QUESTION: Senator, you condemned what your campaign did to Dr. Ben Carson just before the Iowa caucus. Will you fire or suspend anyone in your campaign for putting out misinformation?

CRUZ: Well, what you said is not accurate. I didn't condemn anyone.

Listen, Ben Carson is a terrific man. He is a man of principle. He's a man of character. Ben and Candy have become good friends. And I really like and respect him. Our political team passed on a CNN news story that CNN broke. The news story said that Ben Carson was not continuing from Iowa on to New Hampshire, he was not continuing to South Carolina. Instead, he was going home to Florida. That was a news story CNN had posted.

And our political team passed it on to our supporters. It was breaking news that was relevant. Now, subsequent, the Carson campaign put out another statement saying that he was not in fact suspending his campaign. And I apologized to Ben for our team not passing on their subsequent clarification.

But this is not campaign that scapegoats our staffers, that holds someone out and fires them for political purpose. So, no, we're not going to scapegoat anybody. And I would note that the news story that our passed on was true and accurate. CNN reported it. And, in fact, Ben did go to Florida instead of New Hampshire or South Carolina. And so you have got to understand...

(CROSSTALK)

QUESTION: ... a dirty trick to confuse voters?

CRUZ: Is it a dirty trick to pass on your news stories? You are in the business. Would you think it was a dirty trick if I was forwarding on ABC story?

(CROSSTALK)

CRUZ: Or is it just a dirty trick to pass on CNN stories?

QUESTION: So, you didn't clarify, so voters could have been confused.

(CROSSTALK) CRUZ: Passing on a true and accurate news story, it is in fact something that voters found relevant. And I would note, listen, there is a reason why the media is chattering about this, because the media wants to stir up a fight between Ben Carson and me.

I love Ben. I'm not interested in criticizing him. I will praise Ben. I will praise his character. That's the only place I'm going. And there is a reason why Donald Trump wants to focus on it, because he wants a circus sideshow and he knows all the folks in media will happily oblige.

How about talking about the substantive issues. You want to talk about something substantive? Let's talk about amnesty. Let's talk about the fact that Donald Trump supports amnesty. Now, some people are surprised at that, because they say, gosh, Donald uses really harsh rhetoric on immigration, so he must oppose amnesty.

Well, if you listen to what Donald has actually proposed on the presidential trail, he has said we should deport people here illegally, but then let them come back to this country immediately as U.S. citizens.

I got to say, I disagree with that. That's called touchback. It is actually an idea establishment Republicans have pushed for a long time. And it's simply involves flying people here illegally back home, letting them touch the ground for a second, and then they come back as citizens.

I'm the only one in this race who has consistently opposed amnesty, consistently opposed citizenship. And I will tell you, letting 12 million people here illegally become U.S. citizens, which is the position of Donald Trump, it's the position of Marco Rubio, and it's the position of Hillary Clinton, that's going to do nothing for the hardworking men and women of New Hampshire who are losing their jobs because of illegal immigration, who are seeing their incomes driven down and their wages driven down because of illegal immigration.

And as president, I will secure the borders and keep this country safe. Let me say two final things.

[15:15:00]

Number one, I think the people of New Hampshire are eagerly awaiting the news whether Donald will join us for the debate here in New Hampshire. He skipped the Iowa debate. And he lost. And, you know, he was apparently afraid of Megyn Kelly.

I get that Megyn is a very frightening person and Donald is apparently a fragile soul, where getting difficult questions from Megyn Kelly really would have dismayed him.

But I think you owe the voters the respect of standing in front of them. I'm waiting to see whether or not Donald will show up at the New Hampshire debate, and when he...

BALDWIN: OK. Just so we're all crystal-clear here, when Senator Cruz, with all due

respect, tries to throw my network and CNN under the bus, let me stand up for my colleagues and my journalists here in terms of this CNN report that he keeps quoting that he believes, you know, what we never said with regard to Dr. Carson's campaign and going to Florida.

Let me be precise in case this is seen again. We reported it accurately. And here are the facts. Dr. Carson's staff told us that he would return home to Florida to -- quote, unquote -- "take a breath" from the campaign before resuming his activities on the campaign trail. That accurate report was disseminated on television, and CNN digital, and that was that. That was that.

Congressman Meadows, let me just bring you back in. Forgive me. I just -- when somebody tries to take down the media and misreport something, it gets me a little fired up. That said...

MEADOWS: Well, you have a tough job.

And I can tell you, knowing a number of people in the media, it's one thing to report it. It's another to verify it. And, certainly, your reputation is stellar. I think it underscores the importance, though, of all of us trying to make sure that we keep the main thing the main thing.

And that is where we talk about immigration, where we talk about national security, where we...

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Congressman, forgive me, but I'm going to call out B.S. if I hear B.S. And that was B.S.

MEADOWS: Well, I can tell you, you are not hearing it from me. But you go ahead and call it out. I will be glad to respond.

BALDWIN: OK.

The Carson -- just stirring it up with Dr. Carson, it's just not accurate . And I just needed to go on the record saying that.

MEADOWS: Oh, no, I'm not suggesting that you were doing that.

Listen, I know Dr. Ben Carson. I have had a number of conversations with him. A wonderful man. A humble man. And, truly, if anybody would accept Senator Ted Cruz's apology, I think it would be him. And so to have a third person coming in trying to stir it up is troublesome.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: But Senator Cruz is saying that the media is coming in and trying to stir up this fight between him and Dr. Carson, when that's just not accurate.

MEADOWS: Well, I think you are reporting on a story that's out there that, actually, the causal effect, the genesis of that was a tweet by Donald Trump.

And so, obviously, it's news that must be reported. And, certainly, I would be, you know, disingenuous to suggest that you should ignore it. Again, my thought is, is that we get back to what's important to the American people. They could care less whether you have got politicians trying to trade barbs.

They are used to that. They want something new for America.

BALDWIN: Congressman Mark Meadows from North Carolina, thank you.

MEADOWS: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Much more on all of the above next here on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:22:13]

BALDWIN: OK. Following Iowa, you may feel it in the air, a sense of desperation. Rick Santorum, Rand Paul, Mike Huckabee, they have all just dropped out now days before the New Hampshire primary. And really it's make-or-break time for these establishment candidate, after Senator Marco Rubio finished a solid third in Iowa.

What sort of all-in, last-ditch, kitchen sink strategies might give these candidates, give them the edge? Jeb Bush is betting on his mom, former first lady Barbara Bush expected to join her son on the campaign trail this week. And just a couple of weeks ago, she sent a video message to voters in Iowa, New Hampshire, and South Carolina.

Let me bring in my favorite political married couple. They are CNN political analyst and editor in chief of John Avlon and Margaret Hoover, a CNN political commentator and a Republican consultant.

Hello, you two.

MARGARET HOOVER, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Hi, Brooke.

JOHN AVLON, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Hey Brooke.

BALDWIN: Can we just -- can we talk about something really quickly before we get on to what I wanted to get to, which is, I want -- John Avlon, to you first.

This whole back and forth between Ted Cruz and Donald Trump, you know, serious allegations being leveled by Donald Trump with regard to Iowa, calling it a fraud, saying the election should be nullified. And now you have Ted Cruz essentially responding, you know, which -- tongue in cheek. I believe the hashtag on Twitter was he's having a Trumper tantrum.

John Avlon, what do you make of all this?

AVLON: Yes, well, that's a good line by Cruz. You don't get do-overs in politics, Donald. You don't get to nullify an election. That's not a way to make America great again. But words don't -- are not serious things to Donald Trump. We should know this by now. The guy operates in a land of complete hyperbole. What he is trying to do is start a little firestorm. He's gotten Ted Cruz to respond.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: ... at all with regard to a piece of it because Ted Cruz apologized...

(CROSSTALK)

AVLON: No.

BALDWIN: No?

AVLON: No, not at all. That is not the way elections work.

But it is rich to see Ted Cruz talking about questions of temperament and judgment and unreasonableness on the part of a political figure, because he epitomizes those things in the U.S. Senate.

BALDWIN: OK. Ben Carson also used the F-word, being fraud, as well. Just throwing that out there.

Go ahead, Margaret.

HOOVER: This behavior by Donald Trump is consistent with the behavior we have seen from him on the campaign trail. Remember, he didn't like how FOX News treated him. So, he just took his marbles and went home and called the debate a fraud and did his own thing.

He is essentially doing the same thing with the results from Iowa. The voters can take it and decide what they want to do with that. I can't imagine people of New Hampshire are going to take that kind of attitude towards the voters of Iowa seriously. He will have the same attitude towards them.

BALDWIN: OK.

Back on this whole notion of what these candidates, this sort of jump ball, political jump ball, looking ahead to New Hampshire, what they can do to sort of get folks to vote for them.

[15:25:01]

On Jeb Bush, beyond asking for his mom for a little help -- and, listen, I'm all about bringing mom into things -- super PAC supporting him, and he's trying to edge out Marco Rubio. Here is actually his full-page add. And you see this.

In part, let me just read it to you here. It says: "Take it from the people who know Marco and Jeb best. Governor Bush is the leader we need to Malik America safer, stronger and freer."

Margaret, what do you think will work for Jeb Bush in New Hampshire, pulling out all the stops?

HOOVER: Look, one thing I would not do -- Barbara Bush is beloved by the GOP establishment. But Bushes are not beloved by New Hampshire voters or New Hampshire Republican voters even.

During the Iraq War, thousands of Republicans, self-identified Republicans in New Hampshire left the Republican Party and became independents. George Bush famously lost his primary to John McCain there.

Bushes actually have a very tenuous legacy in New Hampshire. While everybody loves Barbara Bush, campaigning with Bush reminds us of the legacy of the Bushes and that he is the third Bush president, which is frankly the biggest hit against him. Otherwise, he is absolutely qualified to be president of the United States.

And it is sort of a shame that he is the third Bush around. But, look, at this stage in the game, what the candidates need with six days out, they need endorsements so they can win a new cycle. They need to do great in the debate. And they need to continue the other -- they need to have already lived in the state as much as possible.

Chris Christie and Kasich have been there, 60 days, 65 days, Jeb not as much, Marco Rubio even less, only 22 days, according to WMUR.

BALDWIN: Let me get to Chris Christie, John Avlon.

And we heard him just yesterday. He kept repeating over and over, calling Marco Rubio the boy in the bubble. Your wife makes a good point. He has been there. They're banking on a strong showing in New Hampshire. What does he need to do in these final days?

AVLON: Well, first of all, the governors, there will be only one who emerges from New Hampshire.

Chris Christie has put in the time. He is connected. Look, he is tough-talking, he's blunt like Trump, but he's actually got has an executive record that I think people will respond to. He has shown an ability to appeal the aisle. His reelect did very well among Democrats.

And I think the key there is actually showing a little bit more heart to get over the bully perception. He has talked very movingly about heroin addiction and the role that government needs to play. And it's a major problem in New Hampshire and Vermont right now. So, I think showing people he can be tough, but also connect compassionately is a real key for Chris Christie going forward.

BALDWIN: Let's finish the trifecta on the governors. We started with Bush, then Christie, and now John Kasich sort of seen as the nice guy, self-described prince of light and hope. But apparently he has this darker reputation that precedes him. John McCain apparently once cited his hair-trigger temper after he won the governor's race.

So, I don't know.

HOOVER: John McCain citing anybody's temper, that's a punchline in and of itself, I think.

BALDWIN: OK. That said, what does he do, Margaret?

(CROSSTALK)

HOOVER: Kasich, look, he has been there fighting for it.

I think a lot of this, Brooke, depends up on how do they end up performing in this debate and who carries over the finish line? And 60 percent of primary voters in New Hampshire haven't made up their mind yet.

And it is a state whose table is totally set for a Kasich or a Christie or a Jeb or potentially a Marco. All they can do is just seize every moment from then from then on, from now on.

BALDWIN: Go ahead, John.

AVLON: Brooke, Brooke, look, the key to New Hampshire is independents, 44 percent of the electorate. The numbers have doubled over the last quarter-century.

Candidates need to be able to connect to voters in the center in New Hampshire. This is the real opportunity. This is a fight for the center-right. And that fight is also a fight for the soul of the Republican Party.

BALDWIN: OK. John Avlon, Margaret Hoover, thank you very much.

HOOVER: I say they just go get David Ortiz's endorsement. They just need like -- go get a Red Sox, maybe Tom Brady. That's what you need.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: There you go. We will work on that. Actually, I know some people with the Red Sox. There you go.

HOOVER: You do?

BALDWIN: Coming up next, the U.S. appears to be building a new airfield to launch strikes on ISIS less than 100 miles from land controlled by the terror group? We are live with an exclusive first look.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)