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Interview With Montel Williams: New Hampshire Primary. Aired 3- 3:30p ET

Aired February 08, 2016 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:44]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Top of the hour. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

So happy to be here in Manchester, New Hampshire, a very snowy New Hampshire, might I add, here on this primary eve. We are hours and counting until the first voting gets under way here in the Granite State.

Let's begin with Donald Trump, still at the top of the pack here among Republicans heading into tomorrow's first-in-the-nation primary. But the big story is the battle for number two. It is shaping up to be quite the battle, indeed. It's the governors, plus Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, Ted Cruz, John Kasich, Jeb Bush, perhaps not as much Christie as he would like.

But that's really the four-way fight for second place. And the Republican hopefuls, you like this graphic, all the red crisscrossing? This is what they're doing. This is what they have been doing for a while now, sort of blitzing through the message in New Hampshire, jockeying for last-minute support, Chris Christie, Marco Rubio, Ted Cruz all with events scheduled this hour.

But the story right now is what's happening between Jeb Bush and Donald Trump? This war of words erupting is getting quite personal.

So let's begin with Dana Bash who is live here in Manchester, who just sat down with Jeb Bush.

And, you know, listen, it's incoming from both sides.

DANA BASH, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Brooke, I lost you, but I believe you just tossed to me, so I'm just going to begin talking and tell you that Jeb Bush and Donald Trump certainly have been going at it big time.

I'm now at a Chris Christie town hall which is about to start, but I came from an event with Jeb Bush. And before he started talking, I did have a chance to speak one on one with him. And I started by asking him about the fact that he had just tweeted straight at Donald Trump, at calling him a liar, calling him a whiner and worse.

I asked about that and whether or not this is the kind of campaign he thought he was going to have when he started to run saying he wanted to be joyful as a candidate. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Governor, you just sent a tweet that was pretty harsh. You said to Donald Trump, "You aren't just a loser. You're a liar and a whiner. John McCain is a hero, over and out."

JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Yes, I just find it remarkable that Medal of Honor recipients or like Leo Thorsness or John McCain who were in the Hanoi Hilton as prisoners of war aren't viewed as American heroes, because that is what they are.

And it's a long list of things that Donald Trump says that disparages people, large groups of people, individuals like John McCain. I find it remarkable that as a candidate for president, he would think that that's evidence that he's a strong person. He's not.

BASH: When you started this campaign, you said -- or even before, you said that you would really only like to do it if it could be a joyful campaign.

BUSH: Yes.

BASH: And now we are the day before the New Hampshire primary and you're calling an opponent a loser, a whiner, and a liar.

BUSH: Well, he is a whiner. And I'm defending the honor of people that I really respect. And I think that's more than appropriate. I do this with joy in my heart because I do believe that this country is the most extraordinary country on the face of the Earth, but I'm going to be -- you know, I'm a joyful warrior.

There's a difference between just sitting back and watching someone try to hijack a party that I believe will allow people to rise up again. If someone is trying to hijack your party, believes until recently that higher taxes are better than reforming the tax code, believes the singer-payer system works well in other countries, believes in -- you know, is pro-choice, is anti-Second Amendment, this is not that far in his past, all those things.

And now he's on the vanguard of the conservative cause? As a conservative, I find that offensive.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So you talked to Governor Bush. Then, you know, not too long after that, Wolf talked to Donald Trump to get the response to your interview and Mr. Trump tripled down.

BASH: Oh, he sure did. Look, this whole thing is happening, primarily because back in the day when Jeb Bush was the front-runner, Donald Trump started going after him, calling him low-energy and so forth. And it was probably a month or two later that Jeb Bush really started to hit back. The two of them had been doing it from afar. We saw them do it in person on the debate stage.

But Donald Trump called in to Wolf Blitzer to respond to Jeb Bush after that aired. Listen to part of it.

[15:05:05]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He's not a guy that can be president. He doesn't have what he takes.

And he goes around saying about me, he's a gifted politician, a highly gifted politician, about me, and then he goes, he's a great entertainer. But then he goes really hostile, because he sees how well I'm doing.

And I hear him lying. You know, number one, I'm pro-life. He says I'm not. He's say I'm not on the Second Amendment. Nobody is stronger on the Second Amendment. He's a desperate person. He's a sad and, you know, he's a pathetic person. He doesn't even use his last name in his ads. He's a sad person who has gone absolutely crazy.

I mean, this guy is a -- he's a nervous wreck. I have never seen anything like it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: So, Brooke, on the stump, Donald Trump has been a bit different lately. He has been taking slight jabs at Jeb Bush, but he's been really trying to focus more on his populist message, on how he's a different kind of candidate.

But he really, as you heard there, at a very strident tone when he heard what Jeb Bush was saying about him. Meanwhile, while that is going on, I should mention once again, when you came to me, Brooke, you talked about the fact that there is still this real fight, intense fight, for what we think might be the second-place finish here.

We're waiting for Chris Christie to arrive at the town hall momentarily here in Manchester. He is somebody who dealt a pretty big blow to Marco Rubio over the weekend at the debate that Marco Rubio's still trying to get up from. No question that Chris Christie, just like he has throughout the day, is going to continue to really rip into Marco Rubio when he arrives here.

BALDWIN: That kind of tone helped him obviously in New Jersey. Will it help him here in New Hampshire? To be determined.

Dana Bash, thank you very much. We have got eyes on you and that Chris Christie event. Thank you.

Meanwhile, Hillary Clinton is also here in Manchester, New Hampshire, and she's stumping together with her husband and her daughter. And in her race against Senator Bernie Sanders, it is not class, but gender that's getting a lot of play today. Senator Sanders today in Nashua was hailing the progress of women.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (VT-I), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And their male allies (INAUDIBLE) no, sorry, women will not be third-class citizens in America. Women will be able to have....

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

(CROSSTALK)

SANDERS: Women will be able to control their own bodies.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Could Senator Sanders' words there really be a counterpunch to the pounding he and his supporters received from Bill Clinton just 24 hours ago?

The former president lashed out at the -- quote -- "vicious trolling" supporters of his wife were hit with from Sanders supporters. As you well know, here in New Hampshire, he is the dominant front-runner in the Democratic race with just one day to go before the all-important primary.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: People who have gone online to defend Hillary and explain, just explain why they supported her have been subject to vicious trolling and attacks that are literally too profane often, not to mention sexist, to repeat.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Now, Senator Sanders for his part has condemned the sexist comments against Hillary Clinton.

With me now, Jeff Zeleny, who is at where there was a Clinton event there in Manchester.

And were these issues addressed over sexism and women there at the rally? Was there more?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Brooke, there wasn't more, but President Clinton, he introduced his wife here to this rally and crowd just a short time ago earlier this afternoon.

And he did not back away from anything that he had said about Senator Sanders. In fact, we caught up with him just for a minute after he talked. He said, look, I'm just trying to point out the record here. I'm not attacking Senator Sanders at all. But he did during his rally -- he was mindful of the fact that anything he says at this point of a campaign is magnified. Listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

B. CLINTON: The harder this election gets, the more I wish I were just a former president and just for a few months not the spouse of the next one, because, you know, I have to be careful of what I say.

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZELENY: "I have to be careful of what I say." He knows full well what he was saying, Brooke.

And he was trying to sort of remind some Democrats to sort of take a closer look at Senator Sanders' records. That's exactly what he was trying to do. But, Brooke, the point here is that the Clinton is trying to increase their support among women voters in particular and other Democrats who might be sort of tempted to vote for Sanders, at least in the short-term.

They believe that a narrow -- even a narrow defeat here is so much better than a big defeat, because if Senator Sanders wins big here, they believe that this will be an even longer, longer campaign to go from here. So, a tight 24 hours between now and tomorrow -- Brooke.

[15:10:03]

BALDWIN: Jeff Zeleny, thank you very much, hitting on very important themes.

Let's broaden it out and bring in our panel here.

I have with me Stuart Stevens, media consultant and former Romney campaign adviser, as well as Anita Dunn, former White House communications director and former Obama campaign adviser.

Welcome to both of you.

ANITA DUNN, FORMER WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Thank you, Brooke.

STUART STEVENS, FORMER ROMNEY CAMPAIGN SENIOR ADVISER: Thank you. Great to be here.

BALDWIN: Stuart, I'm just going to turn to you and ask you this. Let's start with Republicans.

You have been in the trenches. You get it. The fact that Donald Trump -- this is both ways, this -- very personal attack between Bush and Trump. Why does Donald Trump continue to attack? Is it just because Jeb Bush attacks back or is there more to it?

STEVENS: I think Trump is very jealous of the Bush family. He's someone who's obsessed with his own name, his own status.

He puts his name on everything. And I think the idea that the Bush family is out there as the Bush family kind of drives him crazy. I'm glad to see Jeb Bush doing this. Somebody needs to walk up to Donald Trump and really get into a street fight with him.

BALDWIN: Even using words like loser, liar and whiner? (CROSSTALK)

STEVENS: Yes, I think that's absolutely right.

You can't exist in two worlds. You can't allow Donald Trump to sort of go out there and set the terms of this debate and not engage on him. You have to engage with Donald Trump.

BALDWIN: But at that level?

STEVENS: Yes, absolutely.

BALDWIN: Yes. Yes.

STEVENS: That's the way to beat -- And you can see, Donald Trump responds to everything. If he was president, a 12-year-old kid in his Moscow mom's basement could get him into a nuclear war.

He's absolutely the perfect candidate to engage because it allows you to control it because he will come back at you. I think it's great that Jeb's doing this. Should have done it earlier.

BALDWIN: Should have done it earlier.

Let me loop back to you. That's on the Republicans.

Anita, on the Democrats, the storyline today, as we have just been going through, is sort of this issue with courting -- especially for Hillary Clinton, courting these younger women voters, and when you hear, you know, the sound bites have gotten a lot of play from the Madeleine Albrights and the Gloria Steinems about a special place in hell for women who don't help women like Hillary Clinton.

And Gloria Steinem saying maybe some of these young women like Bernie Sanders because they're in it for the boys. She has since retracted and apologized. But I want you to respond to that and then answer the question, how does Hillary Clinton get the young women on her side?

DUNN: You know, it's interesting, listening to the run-up to this, Brooke, and, you know, the Republicans are calling each other vicious, pathetic, desperate, whining liars, right?

And Bill Clinton, you know, fundamentally is saying about Bernie Sanders he has vicious trolls on the Internet. Feels like there's a substantial difference between the two parties right now and one that Democrats should welcome. There's a level of respect between the two Democratic campaigns that simply doesn't exist in the Republican Party right now.

But having said that, Hillary Clinton from the day she started running has made it clear that she expects to earn this nomination, that she's going to work to earn this nomination. She's going to fight to earn this nomination. And, you know, sometimes, I think her surrogates get a little out there and run the risk of making it sound as though she is entitled to the nomination, which is not what she believes or how she behaves. I think that if you look at the weekend, what you see or, you know,

are Madeleine Albright, who I have to say, I have known for a long time, she has said this in so many different contexts, the exact same thing.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Not helping women.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Yes. Right.

DUNN: She said that. It's on a Starbucks cup for heaven's sake.

So, it's not like it's a secret that this is something she said before. But the context into which she's communicating it means people are hearing it differently. It's what communications is all about. And I think that Hillary Clinton, as she plays out New Hampshire here -- and, of course, eight years ago, no one thought she was going to win it then, so, you know, no one knows what's going to happen now, but that, you know, she is out there making the case of why she is the best candidate.

That ultimately is the way Democratic voters are going to decide between these two.

BALDWIN: OK, OK.

Stuart, Republicans. Marco Rubio came out, you know, the big mo', to quote Bush 41, with the debate or rather with Iowa, but not the debates, sort of a black bruise after this weekend's debate. I'm wondering, why do you think the other governors, with so much more, seemingly, experience as they would tell you, why they're not or they haven't yet really been rising to the occasion and translating in the polls?

STEVENS: I think we are going to see governors do well tomorrow.

BALDWIN: You do?

STEVENS: Yes. Listen, I like Marco Rubio. I think this is a very difficult process. No one gets this nomination easily. No one can be nominated without being humiliated.

It's how you respond to that humiliation that really determines whether or not you're going to win it. I think he had a rough section in that debate and now people are going to see, well, is he going to be able to come back, is he going to get back?

And, look, voters have to decide this. Iowa was all going to be Donald Trump was going to win, except Trump didn't win. I think this week, frankly, the field has missed a chance. They should have engaged Donald Trump more.

(CROSSTALK) BALDWIN: It was like watching a ping-pong match and he was in the middle. And everyone else was sort of engaging one another and not Donald Trump.

(CROSSTALK)

[15:15:04]

STEVENS: I don't -- I'm baffled why these campaigns are not engaging Donald Trump more.

I wouldn't think he's going to get anything but stronger if he wins here. And it looks like he's going to win.

BALDWIN: OK. He might. I think the real question is who's number two.

Anita, final question to you. We were reading one of the tweets from Dan Pfeiffer. One of Obama's -- Dan, one of Obama's former senior advisers, tweeted, "I'm now questioning my view that Rubio is the GOP- er Dems should fear the most. A general election is 10 times more pressure and he could easily melt."

Do you agree.

DUNN: Well, think Dan knows -- and he and I worked together on the 2008 campaign -- that this is a -- you know, it's a process where candidates get better if they're going to be good candidates.

Where they start off as candidates is not where they end up in the general election. It's one of Hillary Clinton's I think great advantages she has in this, is that she's done this before. So Marco Rubio, I believe, is a very strong candidate. The fact that he had his brain freeze or whatever it was during the debate doesn't mean that he couldn't be a very strong candidate in the general.

I think Democrats need to not take things for granted about any of these candidates. It's going to be a very contested election. And it's one of the reasons why I think the Democratic process is an important one for us to go through to really make sure the candidate we nominate is the most electable, because the stakes are very, very high for the Democratic agenda.

BALDWIN: Sure. They are high, but the brain freeze moment, you know, you talk to people here on the ground who are voting on Tuesday and a lot of people are undecided. Those are the things they're thinking of potentially as they head into the polls in 24 hours.

Anita Dunn, thank you. Stuart Stevens, thank you.

As these voters here in New Hampshire head to the polls, stay with us, of course, for comprehensive coverage of the New Hampshire primary, and that is all day tomorrow. Keep it locked here to CNN.

We just mentioned Madeleine Albright telling women voters there's a special place in hell for women who don't support women, referencing specifically there Hillary Clinton. Let's get into a deeper conversation with two of the best women I know.

Plus, Montel Williams joins me live on why he is endorsing Governor John Kasich to be president of the United States.

And just in, we now know how many people tuned in to watch last night's Super Bowl 50. Is it the biggest TV audience in history? You will find out. You're watching CNN's special live coverage. I'm Brooke Baldwin. We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:21:24]

DONNA BRAZILE, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: It was just the way they were marching.

BALDWIN: Talking about the Super Bowl here.

Let's go, just in, nearly 112 million viewers watched last night's Super Bowl, which was probably Peyton Manning's final game. It was the third most watched program in American history. That's actually down from last year's Super Bowl, which broke the record when 114 million people watched.

Some big-name Clinton supporters under fire for offending women voters, a group Clinton really needs on her side. What is more, the ones hurling the perceived insults are two icons of modern-day feminism. "Ms." magazine founder Gloria Steinem and former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright is who we're talking about.

Secretary Albright used a saying she often repeats, but this time, it was used specifically at this Hillary Clinton campaign event and it didn't fly with women who are voting for Bernie Sanders.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MADELEINE ALBRIGHT, FORMER U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: A lot of you younger women don't think you have to -- it's been done. It's not done. And you have to help. Hillary Clinton will always be there for you.

And just remember, there's a special place in hell for women who don't help each other.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: And Gloria Steinem has already apologized for what she told Bill Maher about young women who are supporting Sanders.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GLORIA STEINEM, CO-FOUNDER, WOMEN'S MEDIA CENTER: When you're young, you're thinking, you know, where the boys are? The boys are with Bernie, you know...

BILL MAHER, HOST, "REAL TIME WITH BILL MAHER": Ooh. Now, if I said that...

STEINEM: No, no, no.

MAHER: Yes, they're voting for Bernie because that's where the boys are, you would swat me. Come on.

(CROSSTALK)

STEINEM: No, I wouldn't, I wouldn't.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: With me now, two of my favorite women, CNN political commentators, Democratic strategist Donna Brazile and Republican strategist Ana Navarro.

Ana is a friend of Marco Rubio and supports Jeb Bush for president.

She's like, I get it, we have to say that every time. Transparency, ladies.

(CROSSTALK)

ANA NAVARRO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: And then you ask me why I have to do some drinking.

BRAZILE: And I'm for love, peace and soul.

BALDWIN: Listen, it was a good time last night for the Super Bowl. But let's talk politics and women. Specifically, to you first, Madeleine Albright, I was just talking to Anita Dunn. She says, look, the whole there's a special place in hell for women who don't support women, she's like it's a title on a Starbucks cup. Everybody knows she says this.

But to be specific and say there's a special place in hell if you're not supporting Hillary Clinton, how do you think those Bernie Sanders female supporters feel?

BRAZILE: I have known Madeleine Albright for 30 years.

And I can tell you for all of my life and what she's done, she has constantly beaten at the door of equality. She wants women to have a place at the table. She wants women to be in politics. And she has fought for that. Now, this context yesterday at a Clinton rally, I guess, may have offended some who are supporting Bernie Sanders.

Bernie Sanders has also been a champion for equality. I hate to see that there's a generational divide on this issue, but I really do believe that women voters, whether you're young, or old, or you're midlife, like me, still stirring it up, I think they have two dynamic individuals to choose from.

I just want young women to vote. I want young women to run for office. I want them to go out there and raise hell. But I hope they're not offended by what Gloria said or Madeleine said because I can tell you, as someone who came up under their leadership and still believe in those two women, they're incredible, phenomenal women.

BALDWIN: Do you agree or were you offended?

NAVARRO: First, I'm not offended. I'm not, you know...

BALDWIN: Two of the thickest-skinned ladies on the block right here.

NAVARRO: It takes a lot more to offend me than Madeleine Albright saying that or Gloria Steinem saying it.

[15:25:03]

But I do think that it reflects a huge generational divide. They are tone-deaf to how younger people, younger women see things. I think that it is hurtful to their cause. They have done a lot for women's rights.

BALDWIN: A lot.

NAVARRO: They have been pioneers. But at this point, saying that type of thing does nothing to help the cause of women.

Women today don't want to be guilted into supporting a woman because of her body parts. Look, I was educated and raised by Sacred Heart nuns, OK? Those nuns taught us we could do anything we damn well wanted. We could go out there and we could conquer the world. But we're not going to do it based on our gender, we're going to do it based on our qualifications.

I think that Madeleine Albright, who is a woman who has great qualifications, who has been secretary of state like Hillary Clinton, should be focusing on that, not the woman issue.

BALDWIN: Let me get one more piece of sound in. This is Hillary Clinton talking about running as a woman and the double standard.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We are still living with a double standard. And I know it. Every woman I know knows it, whether you're in the media as a woman or you're in the professions or business or politics.

And I don't know anything other than to do than just keep forging through it and just keep taking the slings and arrows that come with being a woman in the arena.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: She went on to say she was hearing one of the young male Bernie Sanders supporters was saying they really like Bernie Sanders because his hair was all messy. And she was, like, as a female, you have to be sort of perfectly coiffed and no one could ever say that about her and the challenges of being a woman.

Do you agree? BRAZILE: First of all, it's really unfair. The only time we talk

about these issues is when we have a woman running for office.

We should address these issues. There's a reason why when you look at the entire United States population, less than 2 percent of Americans run as public officials. The majority of public officials, they're men. The majority of voters, female. The majority of law students, women. The majority of partners, males.

So, yes, we should have this conversation, but not in the context of a presidential campaign where somebody might get offended, but there is sexism. And society, we have come a long way. Are we there yet? No, we're not.

NAVARRO: Let me tell you what bothers me about this.

BALDWIN: Go.

NAVARRO: In 2008, Hillary Clinton ran away from being a woman, right? She wanted to be the strong woman. She almost ran as wanting to be one of the guys, a woman in the pantsuit.

And she really wanted to show that she was tough, that she could do the job. This time around, I think she's gone way the other side of the pendulum and is lacking subtlety. It rings a little awkward when a woman who has broken the ceilings, who has done the achievements, who is getting paid $675,000 to give speeches is talking about double standards and, you know, lower pay and all these things.

Surely, these things exist. Surely, we have got to address them. But, you know, I'm not sure she's doing it in the best way. You know, just, folks, when you're a woman, you're a woman, OK? Look at us. You know, you can tell. There's obvious reasons why we are women.

Just go out and do it. Be a woman. Don't stroke the violin, don't, you know, get out there and...

(CROSSTALK)

BRAZILE: But, Ana, she's reacting, and so did Bernie Sanders, to be fair, they're reacting to some of the Internet conversation, which as you well know, is sometimes what I call trash talk.

They're addressing it. And the notion that a woman cannot address what I believe to be very substantive issues and concerns for women, we get paid less for doing the same work, we often -- campus rape, campus assault. We have to be able to be spokespeople as well as champions and advocates for women without being accused of going too far.

NAVARRO: Well, I will tell you, I do think the election cycle has been very gender equality when it comes to criticizing the physical appearance.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: I agree.

NAVARRO: We have laughed at Donald Trump's hair, and his pudgy hands all we can. We have talked about Chris Christie. We talked about Marco Rubio's shoes. It's not just the women. You know, it's not just Carly Fiorina. It's not just Hillary Clinton getting it.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: OK.

BALDWIN: That's true.

BALDWIN: Ana and Donna, thank you so much, ladies.

Meantime, my next guest says it is time for an adult in the White House. Who am I talking about? Montel Williams discussing his pick for president, John Kasich. He says he's the only Republican candidate who can truly unite the country -- Montel live next.

NAVARRO: Montel should run.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)