Return to Transcripts main page

Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Justice Scalia Death; Bush Family Campaigns; Candidates Blanket South Carolina. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired February 15, 2016 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[12:00:13] JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: On one sided, a Democratic president in his final year in office. On the other, a Republican-led Senate determined to prevent an election year lifetime appointment to the highest court in the land. And suddenly, a hypothetical issue in the presidential race got very real. Five days out from the nation's first southern primary is not the only issue. Another pits a GOP frontrunner against a rival's brother who happens to have been a former president himself. Today, George W. Bush returns to the trail for the first time since leaving office.

Hello, everyone, I'm Jim Sciutto, in this week for Ashleigh Banfield. Welcome to LEGAL VIEW. We certainly have a lot to talk about this week. We expect to learn some details fairly soon regarding funeral arrangements for the longest serving member of the current Supreme Court. The body of Antonin Scalia returned to D.C. overnight from Texas where the 79-year-old associate justice passed away while on a hunting trip. Scalia leaves a court transformed by his intellect, ideology and sheer presence over 29 and a half years. Replacing him sets up a political battle that may well be as epic as his legacy.

Joining me now with more on all this is CNN's senior Washington correspondent, Joe Johns, and senior political reporter Manu Raju.

Joe, if I can ask you, just -- we lost a Supreme Court justice this weekend. Any word on funeral arrangements, what the memorial service will be? What are we learning today?

JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Not so far. And I have checked just recently. It's taking them a little time to get information out. I can tell you we do know that Justice Scalia was a devout catholic, self-described. He attended mass at a church in Falls Church, Virginia. And so you would expect or you would think there would be a church service.

As well, there have been services for justices here at the court. In fact, in 2005, there was a memorial service inside the great hall here at the Supreme Court. And one of the pallbearers, in fact, was John Roberts, who happens to be the chief justice of the Supreme Court right now. So we're waiting to hear details of how elaborate this process will be and when it's going to occur, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Now on the legal side of things, the court, of course, very busy. It is in session now. What becomes of the current cases before the court? Will they go on as scheduled, even though you only have eight of the nine justices? JOHNS: They are expected to go on as scheduled. And the question is

whether they can get a decision that becomes precedent. Of course, there are supposed to be nine justices on the court. That's an odd number. When you go down to eight, that's an even number, and that creates the possibility of 4-4 ties, which certainly can occur in the closest of cases. In the event that occurs, then the holding by the lower court is what will stand, and whatever the Supreme Court does is not precedential. So that's one option.

The other option is just to hold off on cases until they get another nominee who's actually confirmed and placed on the court. Of course, certainly sounds like that could be a while because of the posture on The Hill from the majority leader and others suggesting the president shouldn't move forward. And the question would be whether they would even get a vote. So that's all in the future, Jim.

SCIUTTO: All right, Joe Johns up at the Supreme Court.

I want to bring in Manu Raju now.

So I mean it took minutes for this to become a political fight. Republicans, of course, warning President Obama not even to come forward, let the -- let the voters decide in effect in the fall. Does the president have any leverage to push this? I mean one thing that gets mentioned are blue state Republican senators, right?

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: Absolutely. And he does have leverage. Particularly in, you know, he's got the bully pulpit. You know, he probably will go and barnstorm the country, I assume. He -- they have, of course, have not announced anything yet, but certainly he can do that if he chooses to, that he has the biggest microphone in the country and in the world. But, you know, what he'll probably -- what I -- what I would assume the Democrats would do, and from Democrats that I've talked to on Capitol Hill, what they are trying to do is make sure that they do focus on some of those at-risk Republican senators from blue states, ones who will feel pressure from voters about whether or not even to have a vote. The way that -- if you're looking at the Republican conference -- the way it breaks down, you have people who are sort of in the caucus of no way, no how, there should not be a vote whatsoever. Then you have those moderate senators who are not up for re-election but who would presumably -- could be open to a moderate type of justice. People like Susan Collins of Maine, Jeff Flake from Arizona. And then you have those blue state Republicans. So those are the leverage points that Democrats will almost certainly try to exploit, but it will be very hard to get enough Republicans to break rank and overcome a likely filibuster.

[12:05:16] SCIUTTO: Of course, part of the context here is that there's a presidential race underway. One of the members, Senator Ted Cruz, he's on the Judiciary Committee, he's actually speaking right now in Akin, South Carolina. He was just speaking about this topic. Let's have a quick listen in.

SEN. TED CRUZ (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Supreme Court ruling that none of us have a First Amendment right to follow our faith instead the federal government can fine us, can imprison us, can force us to knuckle under one justice away from the little sisters of the poor being told, violate your faith or face crushing fines and be driven out of following the mission that God has sent you to carry forth. That's what the stakes are. So the people of South Carolina are assessing the candidates and making a determination, who can I trust on this? I'll tell you this, a candidate who has spent 60 years of his life being very, very pro-choice and defending partial birth abortion is not a candidate you can trust to appoint principled constitutionalists to the U.S. Supreme Court.

SCIUTTO: You're hearing Senator Ted Cruz there, of course candidate for president, also a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee, which will have the first word on President Obama's nominee to the Supreme Court.

I want to bring in CNN's senior political analyst and former advisor to four presidents, by my count, David Gergen.

David, you heard Ted Cruz there laying out some of the decisions that, of course, the court will pipe in on and decisions that are very important to the conservative base and, of course, already issues in this election. As you hear that there, you really get a sense of how much of a battle this is going to be. You've been around a lot of presidents before. Is there a way for President Obama to find a candidate, find a nominee that can break through this?

DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Oh, yes, I think there -- that possibility exists. He -- he needs to find someone who's very attractive personally, who will not be doing a lot of television, but can be very effective for representing the president's cause and would appeal to the country as being, well, that's a sensible choice. It's not some, you know, far off left winger, that's a person who's sort of well-respected. And their -- you know, there's -- there are -- there are candidates like that around, including at least one on the D.C. Court of Appeals that Jeff Toobin has been talking about for the last couple of days, who won unanimous support from the Senate only a short while ago and seems very attractive. So finding someone like that, Jim, whom I think appeals is going to work.

I would say one other thing about this. I -- and not only are we heading into an epic battle this fall over the court as well as the presidency and the Congress, all three -- all three branches of government in play in this election now. It's also true I think that this gives an opening to Ted Cruz he has not had before. He's the most articulate and most knowledgeable person running on the Republican side now on these issues regarding the court. He could well step back here, maybe after South Carolina, and give a -- and give a serious speech. Not something just off the cuff to an audience, but a serious speech about what this all represents. And I think make himself seem more presidential, if you would, and get himself more gravitas. There's nobody else in the current crop against him who can speak as well as Cruz can on these issues. And he, obviously, cares about them deeply.

SCIUTTO: Right, and have particular (ph) appeal in a state like South Carolina, where you have evangelicals, these issues are going to be --

GERGEN: Yes.

SCIUTTO: Even more than typical to be central to their voting decisions.

I want to ask you, because we --

GERGEN: Absolutely.

SCIUTTO: We put up on the screen a couple of these candidates. Manu, in fact, mentioned some before. You have Jane Kelly, Sri Srinivasan. I mean what's interesting about Kelly and Srinivasan, both of them were unanimously approved.

GERGEN: Yes.

SCIUTTO: Kelly has this interesting tie to Grassley, Senator Grassley, the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, because they had a personal connection there. But I have to ask, does that precedent necessarily hold here because it's an election year, we're talking about the Supreme Court. We're talking about a lifetime appointment. Isn't it possible that what happened then, it's just -- it's just a different ball game now for Republicans?

GERGEN: I think it's a different ball game. And, look, I think we really don't know how the public opinion's going to break on this, which way it's going to go. It may very well be divided. But if the public come down strongly on the side of President Obama, it's going to put a -- it's going to put a lot of pressure on some of these Republicans to show more respect, to follow, you know, more traditions and that sort of thing.

[12:10:00] There is something out there though, Jim, that hasn't gotten a lot of discussion. I think Republicans will seize upon in coming days in this argument, is -- is there's -- there's an article in Politico back in the summer of 2007, when George W. Bush still had about a year and a half left in his presidency, and Chuck Schumer, Chuck Schumer gave a very strong statement that it was time to put a block, put a hold on presidential nominees to the Supreme Court until the next president came in and to only consider them under extraordinary circumstances. He felt very burned by the -- by the Roberts and Alito appointments that had proceeded that and that -- you know, that George W. Bush had managed to get confirmed. And Schumer was trying to say no more because of the court is so important. Well that's -- isn't that really the argument that a lot of Republicans are making now? They're going to cease on that Schumer thing to say, look, you know, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. And so this is -- this is -- these arguments are going to take a lot of interesting turns in the days ahead.

SCIUTTO: No question. Certainly hypocrisy not in short supply in Washington on Capitol Hill. David Gergen, great --

GERGEN: It sure isn't. We both know that.

SCIUTTO: Hypocrisy and the political advantage, imagine that. David Gergen, great to have you. Manu Raju, sitting here with me in Washington.

And coming up, Laura and George W. Bush making their first appearance on the campaign trail. Will they be able to drum up enough support to put his brother on the top of the pack? We'll bring you live to South Carolina, that's right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:15:23] SCIUTTO: GOP Candidate Jeb Bush is calling on his big brother to help give him a boost this President's Day. Laying low since leaving office, President George W. Bush is hitting the campaign trail. This comes as Donald Trump attacks George W. Bush's legacy at the latest presidential debate. And Trump is already tweeting today saying, quote, "funny that Jeb didn't want help from his family in his failed campaign and didn't even want to use his last name. Then mommy, now brother." Joining me now is CNN's Athena Jones.

Athena, what is the Jeb campaign saying about the timing of all this? How do they explain bringing W. out to the campaign trail now?

ATHENA JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Jim. That's a very good question. It's something that Governor Bush was asked on "State of the Union." And he said that now is the right time, when there's a high level of interest and a lot of people are watching. But, of course, you could argue that people have been very interested in this GOP race for the nomination for months a they've been watching closely for months.

The bottom line is, Bush finished sixth place in Iowa, fourth place in New Hampshire. He really wants to finish strong here, and they're hoping that George W. Bush will help because he's popular among Republicans and he's popular in this state.

Take a listen to Governor Bush talking on the "Today" show this morning about the fact that his brother's joining him on the campaign trail. OK, listen to that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This will be the first time that he's gotten involved. And I -- I respect the fact that he has been out of the political fray. That's a good tradition. But like President Clinton, I guess supporting his spouse, and, you know, he wants to help his brother. I don't have a problem with that at all. I'm proud of his service. I'm proud of my family's service. I'm running for president based on my own merits, but the fact that he's supporting me will add value to the primary, the campaign in South Carolina for sure.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JONES: And so, of course, the big question is how much can W. help Jeb here. South Carolina handed both Presidents Bush primary victories. All that Governor Bush would say on "State of the Union" about how he expects to do is that he expects to beat expectations here in this state. So, of course, we'll be watching to see if that happens, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Athena Jones in South Carolina.

Let's talk more about this with CNN Politics executive editor Mark Preston.

So, Mark, I mean part of this is that Jeb Bush needs something of a boost, but it's also that W.'s got pretty good popularity in South Carolina.

MARK PRESTON, CNN POLITICS EXECUTIVE EDITOR: Not only does W., his brother, have good popularity, but the Bush family as a whole is fairly popular in South Carolina, which raises the question, why wasn't his brother brought out earlier? You know, in some ways, you know, Jeb Bush --

SCIUTTO: Earlier states or just earlier in advance of South Carolina?

PRESTON: Certainly earlier in advance of South Carolina. You know, George W. Bush certainly wasn't beloved by Democrats. A lot of independents had problems with him. But he's still well liked by Republicans. And with George -- or, rather, Jeb Bush having so much difficulty, Jim, going from October, November, December, January, you know, into where we are right now, you wonder why he wasn't pulled out earlier.

SCIUTTO: So just talking about South Carolina. I know there's some polls out there. You still have a Cruz and Trump at the top in most of the polls. Does he have to surprise in third place, Jeb Bush, to keep going or is -- I mean he's certainly got enough money to keep going after this. What does he need to show from all this to keep the race, give it a boost?

PRESTON: He needs to keep on showing momentum. We've seen the last two debates, that he has a little bit of fire in his belly. That he's willing to take on Donald Trump. You know, in the debate the other night, which was very similar to the debate we saw earlier, Jim, he stored down -- stared down Donald Trump. Not only did he have harsh words for him, but he stared directly in the eye. We hadn't seen that from Jeb Bush in the past and that had worried donors and supporters.

The question is, can he come out of South Carolina in fourth place? Why not? Right, he has the money to do so. Florida is on March 15th. I mean that can be the big battle royale, right?

SCIUTTO: Right.

PRESTON: It could be Marco Rubio and Jeb Bush fighting it out for all the delegates on the table in Florida on the 15th. Anybody that says that he's done right now, for that matter that Donald Trump is done right now, Marco Rubio's done right now or Ted Cruz is done right now is clearly not looking at the race.

SCIUTTO: Donald Trump's certainly listening. He was taking his shots at Jeb's brother in the latest debate. Let's have a quick listen to his latest jab against Jeb Bush.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: George Bush made a mistake. We can make mistakes. But that one was a beauty. We should have never been in Iraq. They lied. They said there were weapons of mass destruction. There weren't none. And they knew there were none.

JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I could care less about the insults that Donald Trump gives to me. It's blood sport for him. He enjoys it and I'm glad he's happy about it. But I am sick and tired --

TRUMP: He spent $22 million in --

BUSH: I am sick and tired of him going after my family and my mother.

TRUMP: The World Trade Center came down during your brother's reign. Remember that.

BUSH: He had the gall to go after my mother.

Hold on, let me finish.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: That was a tough exchange there. I just wonder on the Iraq War issue, with Democrats you bring up the Iraq War, I mean that's money for you. But with Republican voters, is that -- is that a good line of attack for Donald Trump against Jeb and against his family's legacy?

[12:20:09] PRESTON: No, but -- but when we think about conventional wisdom with Donald Trump, we're always wrong. I mean he went after John McCain, we were wrong. He went after Megyn Kelly, we were wrong. He's -- everything that he has done, he has continued to grow support, or at least the support stays with him. You know the problem for Jeb Bush right now is that he did stumble over that whole Iraq War vote and whether his brother was right or wrong when he started his campaign. But now, he's embracing his family.

You know what's interesting in -- during that exchange with Donald Trump he said, you know, it doesn't bother me that Donald Trump is saying things about my family. Well, clearly it is bothering him.

SCIUTTO: Right.

PRESTON: And perhaps if he had more comeupins (ph) on that then people would be (INAUDIBLE) --

SCIUTTO: And you heard -- you heard some of it come out in there say, don't go after my family.

PRESTON: Right. Right. Right.

SCIUTTO: This is personal.

All right, Mark Preston, thanks, as always, for helping break it down for us. Still ahead, the hits just keep on coming as GOP candidates trade jabs

in South Carolina. Coming up, we'll see how the latest GOP debate is fueling new rhetoric with just five days to go until the first in the south primary.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:25:34] SCIUTTO: Several GOP candidates are blanketing South Carolina today. Donald Trump is at a luncheon in the palmetto state. Also on the stump, Senators Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio, who spoke just a short time ago. All of this comes after a heated debate on Saturday.

Joining us no to talk about this is CNN political commentator Ryan Lizza, along with CNN commentator and former South Carolina state representative Bakari Sellers.

For both of you, I want to play one of the most contentious exchanges from the debate on the weekend between Ted Cruz and Donald Trump. I'm sure it's familiar to both of you. Have a quick listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You are the single biggest liar --

SEN. TED CRUZ (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Principle and I'll -- and I'll tell you --

TRUMP: You probably are worse than Jeb Bush. You are the single biggest liar.

CRUZ: And Donald has this weird pattern. When you point to his own record, he screams liar, liar, liar.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: It got ugly in that debate. Now, Bakari, I mean, if this was any other election, we might say, oh, oh, my goodness, voters are going to want to run away, it doesn't seem presidential, it's getting nasty, but all those predictions have fallen flat. As you look at that, and at getting seemingly nastier and nastier, what kind of effect does this have on the race moving forward on the Republican side?

BAKARI SELLERS, CNN COMMENTATOR: Well, all I have to do tell you -- tell you, Jim, is, welcome to South Carolina, because this is how we play politics down here.

SCIUTTO: Right.

SELLERS: This isn't new to South Carolina. I once said that New Hampshire was a very clean state where these types of games, language, and rhetoric wouldn't play well. But we do anticipate this playing very well. We have a southern charm with elbows here in South Carolina. And I think that people are starting to dig their heels in. And one of the things that we're starting to see is a new line in the playbook where people are staring Donald Trump in the eye and taking him on. Whether or not that works or not, we saw Jeb Bush do it. We saw Ted Cruz do it. Whether or not that works or not because he's been somewhat Teflon up to this point, is still yet to be seen.

SCIUTTO: You can see there on the right-hand side of the screen that Donald Trump has begun speaking there. We will be monitoring those events.

Let's have a quick listen in to see what he's talking about right now.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: People are politicians. They are the most dishonest people I've ever met. And -- no, really. I mean, really. And I think -- I mean Jeb is just Jeb. But this guy, Ted Cruz is the most dishonest guy I think I've ever met in politics. He will say, like for instance, my -- many of you have heard my speeches. You've seen them on television. My whole thing is, we will repeal and replace Obamacare. So he comes out today and says, Donald Trump loves Obamacare. Now what am I going to do about it? I'm going to say, we've got four days left. So he says, Donald Trump -- he took an ad. Somebody just said he's putting up an ad that I'm pro-choice. No, I'm not. I'm pro-life. But he took an ad, Donald Trump is pro -- well, but -- so now you say -- now how do you -- because Fox just reported, well, Cruz said he's pro this and he's pro that and everything's the opposite.

Now, nobody's stronger on the Second Amendment. You've heard me talking about California. You've heard me talking about how if Paris and Paris would have the strongest gun laws in the world, if they had guns on the other side, would the bullet have flown the other way? Most of you have heard a lot of the things I say. I stay it constantly. I am the strongest person for the Second Amendment. The strongest of the group, OK.

SCIUTTO: You've been listening to Donald Trump there.

And, Ryan, almost on cue, we were talking about the allegations of who's a liar, and right there you saw Donald Trump again take aim at Jeb Cruz --

RYAN LIZZA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes.

SCIUTTO: Jeb Bush, but also Ted Cruz, saying that he's the most dishonest at all. Ryan, I just wonder, in this race, do those allegations, those accusations of lying, move anyone or are the supporters on each side convinced that the other one's lying and they, you know, just sort of makes them harden their position?

LIZZA: Yes.

SCIUTTO: I mean, I'm curious, how much does it move the voters when they make those charges?

LIZZA: Look -- that's a great question. And we'll find out a little bit more in South Carolina. Frankly, the case against Trump has not been made very powerfully or with a lot of money behind it until very recently, right? Remember what Ted Cruz's strategy was up until just days, almost hours before Iowa voted. His strategy was that he described it, hug Trump, because he assumed, frankly, like everyone else did, that Trump didn't have staying power and that Trump's candidacy would fall down to earth with its own weight and that so Cruz didn't actually have to attack him. Well, what did Cruz do by hugging him? He validated Donald Trump as a real conservative.

[12:30:00] Now Cruz is playing catch-up and doing 180 degree turn and saying, wait a second, everyone, look at his record. He has a record of being pro-big health care program, a record of being pro-choice, a record -- not a good record on the Second Amendment.