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Trump Defends Torture; Syrian Hospital Hit, Death Toll Rising; Taylor Swift Wins Album of the Year. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired February 16, 2016 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:30:00] JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Certainly going to continue for a while, Carol.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Joe Johns reporting live from Washington this morning.

Bernie Sanders is also talking up his past support for this man, Jesse Jackson.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT), DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: There were three white elected officials in America that endorsed Jackson in 1988. I was one of them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: All right. In case you can't determine what this picture is, this is Jesse Jackson way back in the day along with Bernie Sanders. Both much younger and Bernie Sanders saying he endorsed Jesse Jackson. What does the Reverend Jackson think about all of this? I sat down with Jesse Jackson before the show this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REV. JESSE JACKSON, CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: It doesn't do us any good to try to discredit either of them because both of them must combine in time to win the big election. And I would hope that they would not be so many scars in the -- in the -- in the -- in the season that they miss the Super Bowl of winning in November.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: You can hear more of my interview with the Reverend Jesse Jackson. That comes up in the next hour of NEWSROOM.

The Republican race for the White House isn't just heated, it's downright nasty. Donald Trump ramped up his attacks against his rivals, singling out Jeb Bush and his brother, George, slamming W. for, in his opinion, endangering Americans.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Excuse me, the World Trade Center came down during the, you know, reign of George Bush, right? I mean it came down. And I think few people would say the war in Iraq was a positive. You had him on the aircraft carrier saying all sorts of wonderful things, how the war was essentially over. Guess what? Not over. And, you know, the war with Iraq is a disaster.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Jeb Bush is embracing his brother's legacy though. His brother telling South Carolina voters and Fox News Jeb has the experience to be a great president.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: I hope the voters take a look and see who's got the clearest-eyed view of the world and who's got a plan to deal with those who would do us harm. The other thing that's needed in the White House, and Jeb understands this, is you set a goal, defeat ISIS, and then you call upon the people who know how to help you achieve that goal. That would be the military and the intelligence community. And they'll -- and Jeb respects them. And that's what you really want.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: As for Donald Trump, well, that means using enhanced interrogation techniques. In a "USA Today" op-ed Trumps writes, quote, "I would support and endorse the use of enhanced interrogation techniques if the use of these methods would enhance the protection and safety of the nation. The enemy is cutting off the heads of Christians and drowning them in cages and yet we are too politically correct to respond in kind."

With me now to talk about all of this is CNN military analyst Lieutenant General Mark Hertling, and CNN political commentator and contributing editor for "Atlantic Media" Peter Beinart.

Welcome to both of you.

PETER BEINART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Thanks.

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Good morning, Carol.

COSTELLO: Nice to have you here.

Peter, Mr. Trump said during the last debate that, "I'd bring back a hell of a lot worse than water boarding." That coupled with Donald Trump's op-ed this morning, what does he mean?

BEINART: Well, he won't say what he means, but I think this is, you know, typical of Donald Trump really appealing to the worst instincts in voters and the worst instincts in the Republican base. I think that, you know, people who actually understand something about the military and torture, like John McCain, for instance, know that not only is it counterproductive, but also it actually -- it undermines America's moral fabric. It undermines the vital distinction between us and our enemies. It undermines the whole point of what it is that we're fighting for in the first place.

But Donald Trump, who's understanding of national security is absolutely paper thin, just had this instinct for what he can say that goes to the basest instincts of voters. He did it with -- when he demonized Muslims and he's doing it again here.

COSTELLO: General, torture is banned by the United States. It's also banned by the United Nations, and yet Trump says all options must be left on the table and we're being too politically correct by taking the option of torture off the table. Does torture work?

HERTLING: Well, the military -- I will tell you the facts behind this, Carol. The military eschews these kinds of techniques because they also question the quality of the intelligence it produces. There's been a great debate about whether or not there was any intelligence garnered from enhanced interrogation techniques and what I'll tell you, having been in combat situation for a period of several years, the interrogation techniques we teach to young soldiers, to young interrogators, that is their occupational specialty, has produced reams of intelligence without the enhanced interrogation techniques.

So, again, I -- I would suggest that any politician or any candidate that's suggesting that enhanced interrogation works or that we should use it are violating, as you just said, the U.N. convention against torture, a protocol of the Geneva Convention, and American values of terms of treating other people with respect. Even though some may say it's politically correct, that's not quite true at all. It has to do with the laws of land warfare and how we value other people. And we want to raise people to that level, not drop down to the level of other people and other organizations like ISIS that are doing horrible things.

[09:35:32] COSTELLO: On the other hand, Peter, under George Bush's reign as president, torture was used. Enhanced interrogation was used. Water boarding was used. So isn't he supporting Jeb Bush's -- or George W. Bush's policies in a way?

BEINART: Well, I think that was a -- it was a tragic and fateful mistake. I mean we -- we know that those torture techniques and the very existence of what happened at Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib were tremendous recruiting tools for ISIS and al Qaeda. And so I think that what General Hertling is saying is consistent with what I understand from my reading, which is that the best way to get -- to get -- to get good intelligence is to actually develop a kind of rapport with the person that you're interrogating and torture is simply likely to make them lie.

It -- again, it also, once you go down this road, and, again, this is what we saw tragically at Abu Ghraib, once people in the Bush administration sent the signal that it was OK to go down this road and people ended up going way, way beyond even water boarding. We saw these horrific, horrific images from Abu Ghraib, for instance, which really did put American lives in jeopardy. So I think that Donald Trump really has no understanding, it seems to me, of what he's playing with here. But it's typical for him. Again, playing to the basest of emotions with a very scant regard for the fact. COSTELLO: I just want to ask you a final question, general, about

George W. Bush and Donald Trump's charges against him. He said George W. was responsible for 9/11. He said he didn't keep America safe because 9/11 happened on his watch. Do you agree with that?

HERTLING: I don't, Carol, but I don't want to get into the politics of this. It's -- it's -- it is, though, however, just throwing red meat at a crowd. You can blame a lot of people for the faults of the United States and have it attempt to stick based on pronouncements. But, unfortunately, it was a series of events that contributed to the attacks on 9/11. Some that happened long before George Bush or even Bill Clinton were in office.

This has been coming literally for a long time. It -- again, it requires an understanding of Islamists and how they view the world and what they will do to try and to interpret the way the world should be. And it's more than just what a president does. But I would agree that President Bush and his team, during the period of 2000-2008, did keep America safe because they were connecting the intelligence picture with potential attacks and President Obama has continued that in continuing to attempt to keep America safe with some very few attacks by some lone wolves and others within the country. But again, you can't stop all these attacks. Major attacks have been stopped since 9/11.

COSTELLO: All right, I have to leave it there. General Mark Hertling and Peter Beinart, thanks to both of you.

HERTLING: Thank you, Carol.

COSTELLO: Still to -- you're welcome.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, Senator John McCain says he may subpoena those 10 U.S. sailors detained by Iran last month. We'll tell you why, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:42:50] COSTELLO: Senator John McCain says he will subpoena 10 U.S. sailors to testify about what happened when they were detained by Iran if the Obama administration does not release the findings of an investigation soon. As you know, the incident happened last month when the sailor's two patrol boats swayed into Iranian waters. The sailors were released the next day. And as was first reported by Reuters, Senator McCain has given the Obama administration until the end of the month to provide the results of an investigation into this incident.

The death toll rising in northern Syria this morning. Air strikes that hit four hospitals and a school, killing at least 46 people. Frederik Pleitgen is in Damascus, Syria, with more on this.

Hi, Fred.

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIOANL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Carol.

Yes, an absolutely awful incident that happened there. In one of the cases of one of those hospitals that was hit, apparently it was hit by the first air strikes, then rescuers went in to try and bring out wounded people, and at that point the hospital was hit once again. Now, the big question at this point in time is, who did it? The Turks blaming the Russians. The Russians saying they were not responsible for it. The U.S. has said at least one of the strikes it believes the Syrian government is responsible. The Syrian government denies that and itself says it believes the U.S. might have struck one of the hospitals. However, America categorically saying its planes were not anywhere near any of these sites.

Now, the civilian suffering here, Carol, is absolutely immense. And one of the things that world powers are trying to at least do is get aid to people inside besieged towns. The United Nations are gearing up for a relief effort. We were there to see it. Let's have a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PLEITGEN (voice-over): These images shocked the world. People starving in the besieged Syrian town of Madaya (ph). Aid groups say dozens have succumbed to hunger in the winter months.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This child here is very ill. He eats leaves, tree leaves, and he get sick in ill and his stomach -- his stomach is really, really hurting. He needs immediately go to hospital outside in Madaya.

PLEITGEN: World powers have started an urgent push to get aid to those most in need.

[09:45:02] At this U.N. distribution center outside Damascus, the World Food Program is gearing up to escalate its relief effort.

Hussam al Saleh shows me the facility.

HUSSAM AL SALEH, WORLD FOOD PROGRAM: We receive the commodities in large quantities and we package it into small individual portions. Each portion is enough to feed five people for one month.

PLEITGEN: But while the World Food Program is working to get its aid ready, the problem is many of the warring parties in Syria are not willing to allow relief goods to be delivered.

The U.N. has accused the Syrian government, many revel groups and ISIS of using the denial of food and medicine as a weapon.

The World Food Program says it could get to places like Madaya quickly if it's allowed.

Workers are already stacking boxes into trucks.

PLEITGEN (on camera): Once this vehicle is loaded the folks here are going to seal it which makes it easier to get through check points and the World Food Program tells us they have many trucks like this one loaded ready to go and are just waiting for permission.

PLEITGEN (voice-over): Most of the parties involved in the fighting here have agreed in principle to allow aid to besieged areas, but ISIS has not. The group has surrounded the eastern Syrian city of Deir ez- Zor. Syrian and Russian military aircraft have dropped some food and medical supplies and soon the U.N. wants to do the same.

AL SALEHL: Unfortunately we couldn't reach it. However, Deir ez-Zor, there is plans to do an air drop and hopefully we'll soon manage to do an air drop as well to assist them.

PLEITGEN: The World Food Program is still waiting to get the green light to enter many besieged areas. Until that permission comes, all they can do is keep packing the goods ready to move when they can.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PLEITGEN: So Carol, the food stocks are there. The trucks are there. Now all that is needed is permissions, not just from the Syrian government, from many rebel groups as well. Of course the international community realizes there is definitely not going to be any permissions coming from ISIS. That's why they want to conduct those air drops. The teeth (ph) envoy for the United Nations is in Damascus at this point in time trying to sort something out as fast as possible so at least some of these people can get some aid, Carol.

COSTELLO: All right. Frederik Pleitgen reporting live from inside Syria. I'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:51:48] COSTELLO: Checking some top stories for you at 51 minutes past.

The Eagles of Death Metal are returning to France to finish the concert they started last November. Terrorists opened fire as the band was on stage at the Bataclan concert hall. 89 people were killed there, including the band's merchandise manager. The band will perform tonight in Olympia Hall in Paris. The Bataclan is scheduled to reopen in November.

Anti-Beyonce protesters plan a demonstration at NFL headquarters and then her fans interrupt them. The protesters say Beyonce's Super Bowl halftime performance was inappropriate because of its polarizing black power theme. But the singer's fans found out about the protest and they showed up to support Queen Bey.

Taylor Swift, one of the biggest winners at last night's Grammy Awards, now just for her second album of the year award for "1989." But many praising her strong acceptance speech.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TAYLOR SWIFT, ARTIST: There are going to be people along the way who will try to undercut your success or take credit for your accomplishments or your fame but if you just focus on the work and you don't let those people side track you, someday when you get where you're going, you'll look around and you will know that it was you and the people who love you who put you there and that will be the greatest feeling in the world. Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: A little girl power there. Brian Stelter joins me now. So why did she respond that way?

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: You've heard of subtweeting? Well she was subtweeting Kanye West. Kanye West recently said in one of this new songs "I made her famous." He used a profane word when saying that. And I got to tell you, Kanye, I love you, but you didn't make Taylor Swift famous. She had a wonderful comment there. I thought a feminist (inaudible) in her comment as well, speaking to young women from the stage as she was winning album of the year, of course, for her album, 1989.

COSTELLO: I loved her speech. And I think it was necessary to say and good for her, but I couldn't help but notice that standing behind her were all those producers, all of whom were men.

STELTER: Yeah, all of them men. That was noticed online as well. I saw a number of commentators pointing that out just happened to be all of her colleagues that worked with her on the album, but it did seem a little strange.

And you do wonder about the talent in the music industry. You know, the Oscars have been under criticism for the #OscarsSoWhite, that's the hashtag message around this, around the nominees. We're going to see that in 12 days.

This Grammys Award showcase was much more diverse. Kendrick Lamar winning a number of big awards, really impressive provocative performance on stage. But --

COSTELLO: But let's be honest with Kendrick Lamar because last year he was supposed to win but did not. So some people say, well, they made good on what they should have done last year.

STELTER: Right. And some people say he was robbed in the album of the year category that Taylor Swift won instead. But they were the two biggest winners of the night. And I think what people are talking about more than anything else this morning is his performance on stage.

There were also a couple of really sweet moments. I think Meghan Trainor picking up the award for best new artist. Let's look at how she accepted.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MEGHAN TRAINOR, ARTIST: I love you so much. Thank you, Atom Factory and Troy Carter for managing me and my mom and dad for always believing in me and Charm Ladonna for making me an artist. I'm a mess. I have to go cry. Thank you to the Grammys. I love you so much. Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP) [09:55:10] STELTER: What an emotional moment.

COSTELLO: I assume that was her dad, right?

STELTER: Yeah. That's right.

COSTELLO: (Inaudible).

STELTER: I also liked Ed Sheeran in stage accepting his award saying his parents had come to the show several times before, he lost every time and his parents have always said to him maybe next year. And then finally it was his year.

There were some snafus, though, some glitches, there were some streaming problems and Adele had a hard time on stage. I think we can listen to what happened with her.

(ADELE SINGING "ALL I ASK" LIVE AT THE GRAMMY AWARDS)

STELTER: Not her best performance. Now, she's saying it's because there was a microphone in the piano and the microphone fell down on the piano's strings, caused a problem with the audio and maybe set her a little bit off base. Still, a whole lot better than I could ever sing.

COSTELLO: I don't think people realize how difficult it is to sing live like that.

STELTER: Can you imagine? Yeah. I mean, this is hard enough and we're not singing.

COSTELLO: Exactly. We're just talking. Brian Stelter, thanks to much.

STELTER: Thank you.

COSTELLO: The next hour of CNN NEWSROOM after a break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)