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Examining the Primaries; Pope Francis and Donald Trump Remarks Discussed; Cruz Ad on Trump Abortion Remarks. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired February 18, 2016 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:30:00] BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Even Barack Obama who came out and said he apologized to ...

ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: Ben, do you think, to Bakari's point that this is maybe in of it itself perhaps not specifically race but more broadly that the Republican effort to stop anything the president has tried to do add up to?

FERGUSON: No, this is politics and it's never been race when you have two people that are white or two people that Hispanic or two people that African-American that one's a Republican, one's a Democrat. They don't like each other they fight to stop one another. That's exactly what elections are about. That's what happens in Congress. We see it with the Republicans in the White House or a Democrats in the White House.

You look at what Harry Reid said about George Bush. You look at what Nancy Pelosi said about George Bush, it is politics. When you try to stop a judge, when you try to stop an appointment, no one said it was racing now because of his race card is convenient that's why things (inaudible).

BURNETT: And they're there only because you got the first time ...

BAKARI SELLERS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: That's fine, I love Ben. We got a whole week of this.

BURNETT: Right, right. We'll leave on a day time. All right, Bakari, Ben, thank you both.

And next, the Pope questions Donald Trump's faith. Trump hitting back saying he would be the best one to protect the Vatican from ISIS. So, what are people inside Trump's rally thinking about this sudden feud today? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:35:00]

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: It is war of words. It is pitting the leader of the Catholic Church against the man running to be the leader of the free world and the Republican frontrunner. On the way back to Rome after his historic trip to Mexico. Pope Francis suggested Donald Trump is not a Christian if he pledges to build a wall between the Mexico and the United States. Trump wasted no time in responding. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If and when the Vatican is attacked by ISIS, which as everyone knows is ISIS' ultimate trophy. I can promise you that the Pope would have only wished and prayed that Donald Trump would have been president because -- it's true. It's true. Because this would not have happened.

ISIS would have been eradicated unlike what is happening now with our all talk no action politician.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Let me bring in Bill Donohue. He is the president of the catholic league. What a day as our Dana Bash said they don't think you would have woken up this morning and thought that this fight might break out but, hey, anything happens in politics ...

BILL DONOHUE, PRESIDENT, CATHOLIC LEAGUE: Exactly.

HARLOW: ... especially in this race this days. This is not the first time that a leader of the Catholic Church has delved into a political issue. This may be the most direct. What do you make of the back and forth?

DONOHUE: Well, I think -- first of all, I want to commend CNN for accurately reporting on this story unlike some of your competitors. You say that the Pope suggests that he may not be a Christian.

Quite frankly, the Pope was set up by the reporter because the question that was the lead up to the question to the Pope was, what about if somebody wants to deport 11 million illegal aliens separating families?

Well, on August 16th, 2015, Chuck Todd, of "Meet the Press," explicitly said to Trump, you're going to separate families. He said, "No, not at all. We want to keep the families together."

HARLOW: To be clear for our viewers, Trump wants to deport 11 million parents and kids and on that same "Meet the Press" show, he said, "Speaking of undocumented workers, they have to go, they're having a baby and all of a sudden nobody knows that baby's here. You have to have, quote, deportation force." And then he also said, "Speaking about the children, they're illegal."

DONOHUE: Well, certainly if you're in the country illegally, you're in the country illegally. And the question is, what he'll do about it? But, you don't want to break up families. He was mislead on that thing.

Also, what the Pope said is this. He said, "If and only if somebody is in favor of just borders." Well, if you take a look at Trump's positions he's not just about borders. He talks about other kinds of principles such as serving your own citizens and the like which is not reported. Actually, the Pope was fairer to Trump than the media because he's saying, "If he said this and I'll give him the benefit of the doubt." So, he's lied to about what Trump has said, and then he's asked to comment about what Trump has said when he gets an incomplete analysis.

HARLOW: All right, let's listen to what some people, the voters it matter much more than all of us, right? What they said today on "Q Island" in South Carolina after Trump spoke. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think Trump what he said was right. I mean, a religious leader shouldn't be making those kinds of comments.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think the church and politics should be separated. He's doing too much in politics.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Personally, I think the Pope should stay out of politics, just like politics should be divorced from religion. I thought we had separation of religion and, you know, state. So, I don't put that much stock into it one way or the other in terms of how I would vote.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: So all three of those people are supporting Trump in this. You agree. I mean, you think this is actually going to help Trump in South Carolina?

DONOHUE: Well, first of all, people have to accurately find out how the Pope conditioned his response on if what I'm being told is true. And if you're only in favor of voice that changes the dynamics of everything.

HARLOW: Why do you think this helps Trump in South Carolina?

DONOHUE: Well, because I think anytime you have a religious figure, particularly a catholic figure, and obviously the Pope being the number one figure, speaking out on matters political in a presidential year, the people who don't like what he's saying are going to say separation of church and state.

As soon as they like what he says, they want him to speak up more. Look what the reporter said to him. Amazingly, the reporter in the planes said, I don't know if it was a man or woman. I don't know where this person came from. But, the reporter said, can a catholic vote for somebody like this?

Now, all of a sudden some of the media want the Pope to tell us to line up single file and who to vote for? I mean, the bias is on left against Trump and the bias is on the right on those people who don't want Trump to be president.

HARLOW: You are a man of deep faith. You're a catholic.

DONOHUE: And I know the Pope. HARLOW: And you know the Pope. Does this hurt the Pope at all?

[15:40:02] DONOHUE: I think in certain quarters, it may. But I think again, if people read what he said, he was very conditional in his response. And outside of CNN, most of the media have been unfair to what the Pope said and therefore, unfair even to Trump.

HARLOW: Do you -- what do you make of the fact that we've seen that these much more human moments from this Pope arguably than any other? Certainly in recent history, we saw of him get angry in the crowd in Mexico yesterday when his hand was being pulled and he was sort of falling over that person, and then we saw this moment. It just seems like we're seeing many more human sides of this Pope. Do you agree?

DONOHUE: I totally agree. And I'll tell you one thing. While the Pope and Trump may not agree on everything, there's one thing they have very much in common, which explains their success. It's called authenticity.

They're not handled and measured and trying to think about what's politically correct. What you see is what you get, which is why a lot of people love them both.

HARLOW: That's a really interesting comparison and we know he -- the Pope and Donald Trump have pretty high ratings no matter what poll you look at right now.

DONOHUE: Right.

HARLOW: Thank you very much. Well, thanks everyone. I appreciate it.

DONOHUE: Thank so much. Thank you.

HARLOW: Hillary Clinton releases a new campaign ad featuring the daughter of an undocumented immigrant. Could it sway the Latino vote in what has now become a neck and neck race in Nevada? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:45:12] BURNETT: Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders in a dead heat in Nevada. In a last ditch effort to sway voters, the rivals will hold dueling events tonight in Las Vegas because we are really counting down here to those caucuses on Saturday, which is two days to go.

Clinton's campaign released a new ad in Nevada. It makes an emotional appeal to the state's Hispanic voters. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My parents, they have a letter of deportation. I'm scared for them because they have the deportation. I'm scared that they are going to be deported.

(OFF-MIC) HILLARY CLINTON, (D) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Come here baby. I'm going to do everything I can so you don't have to be scared.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: Our CNN Washington Correspondent, Jeff Zeleny is in Las Vegas. And Jeff, I mean, this is going to be such a crucial day for the Democrats according to our latest CNN poll.

Clinton has 48 percent of the caucus vote to Sanders 47. Obviously, that's a dead heat. And over the past two months, Sanders has surged from pretty much nothing to this dead heat. How important is the Latino vote? Is that what this comes down to?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Erin, it's definitely important. There's no question. I mean, the 2014 census estimate here show that some 28 percent of the electorate overall in Nevada is Hispanic, is Latino. So, that is definitely one thing both campaigns are going after here on a very windy day in Nevada.

But, look, I mean, one thing that that ad is showing, what's so interesting about it is, you know, for all the planning and scripting that goes into these commercials, that was a real moment. That was a real moment that happened on Sunday when she was having a meeting with some dreamers. So, that is a very powerful message here.

But, on the Democratic side of things, both campaigns basically had the same position. Both the Sanders campaign and the Clinton campaign are going after Latino voters. Everything is written in Spanish of course as well as English here. So that is one element of this electorate that both are very aggressively going after here in the final 48 hours or so before these caucuses.

BURNETT: And then quickly Jeff, what about turnout? Caucuses, often it's hard to get turnout. Do they expect there will be real turnout? That's a crucial state.

ZELENY: It is crucial Erin, but they're not expecting huge turnout. And this is why. The Nevada caucuses are still very new to this process. This is only the second time around in the presidential campaign where it's happening. You know, it first started in 2008 and the Harry Reid of course, the powerful Senate Democratic Leader, fought hard to get Nevada included in the early states.

It's the first sort of slice of opinion from the west. So that's one of the reasons that Nevada is included. But, people still don't know how to caucus yet. So we think that this will be the lowest turnout of all those first four states.

But, it's important because Nevada's an important general election state, an important battleground state for the fall. That's why both parties want to be here to get started on organizing here. But, there's no question not many people in Nevada, certainly not many people in Las Vegas, even know that this is going on, Erin. Millions of dollars in television ads, et cetera, but most people have other things on their mind today in Las Vegas. BURNETT: Pretty scary because obviously so much is at stake, and when you're counting up these delegates in matters a whole lot. Jeff Zeleny, thank you.

And tonight, I'll be back with a special edition of "Outfront" just before Donald Trump, John Kasich and Jeb Bush take our Town Hall stage at the 7:00 Eastern.

But next, Trump threatening to sue Ted Cruz over an ad that features Trump's own words. Now Cruz says, guess what, I'm going to play that ad even more. We're going to ask an attorney if Trump has a shot in court and dig into his history of lawsuits.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:50:00]

HARLOW: Ted Cruz shrugging off attacks from Donald Trump including a cease and desist letter that Trump sent his rival after Cruz ran an ad featuring a news clip of a much younger Donald Trump. This is back in 1999 discussing abortion rights and saying at the time that he was pro-choice .

Cruz's message to Trump, go ahead and sue me. So will he, and is there any legal precedent to bring a lawsuit? First, here's a clip of the ad.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TIM RUSSERT, "MEET THE PRESS" HOST: Would President Trump ban partial birth abortions?

TRUMP: I'm very pro-choice .

RUSSERT: But, you would not ban it?

TRUMP: No.

RUSSERT: Or ban partial birth abortions?

TRUMP: No. I would -- I am pro-choice in every respect.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: All right, we also think it's very important that you see the entire section of that "Meet the Press" interview from 1999, so here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUSSERT: Partial birth abortion, the eliminating of abortion in the third trimester, big issue in Washington. Would President Trump ban partial birth abortion?

TRUMP: Well, look, I'm very pro-choice . I hate the concept of abortion. I hate it. I hate everything it stands for. I cringe when I listen to people debating the subject. But you still -- I just believe in choice.

And, again, it may be a little bit of a New York background because there is some different attitude in different parts of the country and, you know, I was raised in New York and grew up and work and everything else in New York City, but I am strongly for choice and yet I hate the concept of abortion.

RUSSERT: But, you would not ban it?

TRUMP: No.

RUSSERT: Or ban partial birth abortion?

TRUMP: No. I would -- I am pro-choice in every respect.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Rachel Stockman is with me. She's senior editor at LawNewz.com, Danny Cevelas, CNN Legal Analyst, Criminal Defense Attorney also with me.

So it's interesting when you look at the difference the part that was cut out where all the times he said I hate abortion, I hate everything it stands for, I hate everything it stands for, but the words that were used are his.

Danny, is there any defamation case to be brought here?

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, defamation is a publication, which we have, and it has to be a false statement and something that actually injures the plaintiff.

[15:55:07] We have the first thing, we have publication. I don't know that we have a false statement and any injury to a plaintiff in this case.

Now, on the plaintiff's side, on Trump's side, he may be making the argument that by splicing up my words you sent a different message. But, if you ...

HARLOW: And it's cutting out every part where he said he hates abortion.

CEVALLOS: Right. But, if the underlying message is still true, truth is a defense to a defamation claim, so that seems to me to be the initial bar to a lawsuit.

HARLOW: That there isn't really a case here?

CEVALLOS: It doesn't seem very powerful. And then even if there is one, he has to show some damages and he's a public figure so the standard, the burden of proof is higher.

HARLOW: And it would be hard to say, "Oh, I fell in the polls because of that." I mean, who's didn't know why. Rachel, you've done a lot of investigative reporting just into lawsuits associated with Trump and the history of lawsuits. What did you find?

RACHEL STOCKMAN, SENIOR EDITOR, LAWNEWZ.COM: You know, so with all this talk of all the lawsuits he wants to file against Cruz and various other entities. We started to wonder how many lawsuits has he been involved in. And what we did is we took a look at the federal docket.

Now, we couldn't look, because it would take just too long in the limited amount of time that we had. We couldn't look at all of the state cases, but just in the federal docket we found that he's been named in 169 federal lawsuits.

Now, that means in some of them he's sued people, other times he's been sued. It's from everything from securities fraud, violations of contracts, we've had libel lawsuits. So, he's certainly no novice when it comes to the court docket to that person.

HARLOW: And, you know, it's also interesting when you look at this lawsuit, obviously he's got quite a team of lawyers who runs a big business. But, Danny, is there any difference in past versus present? What I mean by that is, if -- with Ted Cruz saying you are pro-choice versus you were pro-choice .

Trump says I evolved on this. I am now pro-life . Is there any legal sort of issue there with mincing of words if Trump says, well, Cruz is saying I am this way but it was that I was that way.

CEVALLOS: Defamation cases are like snowflakes. No two are exactly alike because the facts are always different. But, when you think about it, go back to truth being the defense. This is a videotape, a videotape that we can ascertain when it was made and all that statement says is when that videotape was made at one particular year at point in time that was his opinion. And that looks to be the truth because it's on the tape.

So, if that was his belief at that time, that's all that videotape tends to show, just sort of spit balling for the defense here.

HARLOW: And you agree? I mean, any legal reason Cruz should pull this ad?

STOCKMAN: No. I mean, I absolutely agree with Danny. He definitely maybe has an argument that his words were mischaracterized but that's not a legal argument. What he said, he said it. It was cut up in this ad. And, I mean, I don't think he has any kind of defamation claim whatsoever in this one.

HARLOW: One quick thing that stood out to you from the lawsuits you looked at, anything?

STOCKMAN: Well, I mean, what is interesting is that all the lawsuits started way back when he really started in business back in 1983 was his first lawsuit filed by some union workers against him saying that he had used some nonunion workers and it goes on and on and on of people filing lawsuits against him, and him using the courtroom really to his advantage and disadvantage in some times.

CEVALLOS: Keep in mind. He's searching through the federal cases, and federal courts are courts of limited jurisdictions.

HARLOW: Yeah.

CEVALLOS: So, that doesn't tell us all the other state court cases that could be out there.

STOCKMAN: Exactly.

HARLOW: Danny Cevallos, Rachel Stockman, thank you very much. I appreciate it. Now this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(SINGING)

(MUSIC)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: That is a clip from Darius Rucker's latest country album, "Southern Style." The South Carolina native, three times Grammy winner, also keeps a very close eye on politics. He sat down this week with Brooke Baldwin to talk about how Donald Trump became the GOP frontrunner in his home state.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DARIUS RUCKER, SOUTH CAROLINA NATIVE AND THREE-TIME GRAMMY WINNER: He's the outsider coming in and really shaking things up. You know what? A lot of people I think at the beginning were waiting for Mr. Trump to crash and burn. It doesn't seem like he's going to do that. It seems like he's going to be there until the end.

So, you know, it's just -- for me as a guy, who loves entertainment, this is also entertaining and he's made it just even more entertaining. So I can't wait to, you know, if he wins the nomination, I mean that's going to be something to watch.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Something to watch. Rucker has not endorsed anyone yet, but maybe he'll do that on stage. He just announced plans for his good for a good time tour. That kicks off in June.

Thank you all for joining me and Erin today. "The Lead with Jake Tapper" begins right now.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Poppy. Hope the Pope has a good lawyer. "The Lead" starts right now.

Just two days until the critical South Carolina Republican primary and Donald Trump going off on his holiness after Pope Francis suggests that he's not Christian. But, could this only help --