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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Pope Francis Talks About Trump. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired February 18, 2016 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:00:08] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Jim Sciutto, in again today for Ashleigh Banfield. And welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

We begin this hour with breaking news from the presidential campaign battlefield. A brand-new war of words with Donald Trump, but this time with an unlikely sparring partner, no less than the leader of the world's 1.2 billion Roman Catholics, Pope Francis. On his way back to Rome from a six-day visit to Mexico, the pope responded to a reporter's question about Trump's attack on the pope's immigration views, specifically Trump called the pope "political" and said his ardent defense of migrants' rights shows that he doesn't understand America and might even be a, quote, "pawn" of the Mexican government.

Here's what Francis had to say. I'm quoting here. "A person who thinks only about building walls wherever they may be and not of building bridges is not Christian. This is not in the Gospel. As far as what you said about whether I would advise to vote or not to vote, I am not getting involved in that," said the pope. "I say only that this man is not Christian if he has said things like that. We must see if he said things in that way, and I will give him the benefit of the doubt."

My CNN colleague, Rosa Flores, she was on that plane, was in that gaggle of reporters. Joining me now live with really this stunning papal report.

Now, to be clear here, Rosa, we've been reading an English translation of his comments there. Was he speaking in English or Spanish on the plane? And just to be clear, was his language clear that not once but two times the leader of the Catholic Church really said Donald Trump is not a Christian?

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, just to give you the background here. So this is a press conference that happens on the papal plane after he finishes every single trip whenever he goes abroad. And so reporters get together, we craft questions, trying to figure out exactly, you know, what the news of the day is and, quite frankly, crafting stories - crafting questions so we can get answers about topics that are relevant today. And so this was one of those questions.

Now, it's important to know that Pope Francis had been in Mexico for five to six days already. He had been listening to the stories of immigrants in Mexico. He had been listening to the stories of youth. And one of their messages - one of his messages, rather, Jim, was that he wanted Mexico to be back in the game when it comes to allowing people to dream so that Mexicans didn't have to go to the U.S. to dream.

So now let's get back on the papal plane here with this question posed to Pope Francis. And the question was something along the lines of this. So, Jim, he asked - he was asked if immigration, you know - he said you spoke very well about immigration. But what about this character in the United States, Donald Trump, who vows to build a wall, who vows to deport 11 million people out of the United States. Would someone in America or would a catholic in America vote for this man? And then the question - the answer to that question was what you responded.

SCIUTTO: A very direct answer. And it appears that he uttered those words, he's not a Christian, not once but twice.

Rosa Flores, thanks very much.

Just moments ago, Donald Trump was actually asked about these comments from Pope Francis. He responded. Here's what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: So the Mexican government fed the pope a tremendous amount of stuff about Trump is not a good person. And the pope just made a statement - can you imagine, I just got a call, as I'm walking up here, they said, Mr. Trump, the pope made a statement about you. I said, the pope? What did the pope say? I like the pope. I mean, was it good or bad? Because if it's good, I like the pope. If it's bad, I don't like the pope. No, it's true.

Well, you know, look, look, Mexico - I'm wise to Mexico. And I like Mexico. I have no problem. I have thousands and thousands of people over the years who have worked for me from Mexico. Hispanics worked for me. In Nevada, I'm leading with Hispanics. I'm leading the polls. I'm going to bring jobs back to the country. They like me. I have thousands of people that have worked for me, Hispanics, over the years. And I have great relationships with Hispanics. And I've been telling people I'm going to win. And people are saying, you must be kidding.

Like, for instance, right here. Came out two minutes ago, veterans right here in your incredible state, right? The veterans have just - I've gone up eight points because of what I said. You know what they said two days ago, what I said about Iraq, about the World Trade Center. I mean I only tell the truth. Somebody said, did you poll it? One of the politicians. Did you poll it? I said, I don't poll what I say. I say what's right. I say what's on my mind.

[12:05:10] And if it doesn't work, it's fine. I mean, you know, that's OK. But it's not a question of working. I have to be honest. But in South Carolina, they just did a poll. I went up 8 percent with the vets. Now it's supposed to be, boom. The vets get it. In fact, we have one of the great vets here, ever, right here, Al. Al, they're liking me. What happened? What happened? I went up. I was supposed to go down. I love the vets. I do more for the vets than any - these politicians don't do anything for the vets. They talk. So what happened? I went up in the poll.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You went up in the polls because when you sent me over to the VA to check on the veterans -

TRUMP: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They love you.

TRUMP: Oh, that's very nice. Wow. See? Who knew that was going to happen. You know, they say Trump will say things and we think he's going to go down and he goes up. And they say, you know why, because people like honesty. And when you think about it - but that was great.

So I guess this is a little bit for the press. So I just wrote this out very quickly about the pope. Do you want to hear it? Should I read it to you?

CROWD: Yes.

TRUMP: OK. He actually said that maybe I'm not a good Christian or something. It's unbelievable. Which is really not a nice thing to say. So it's a response from Donald Trump. It says, "if and when the Vatican is attacked by ISIS" - you know, ISIS, their primary trophy - very few people know this. I read this about two months ago. Nobody even believed it. Their primary thing - you've seen what they've done all over the Middle East. Their primary goal is to get to the Vatican. That would be their ultimate trophy. They want to do what they did to all of these magnificent artifacts and all of the beautiful museums that they've totally destroyed all over the Middle East, right? They're - and I didn't know this. I read this like four or five months ago. I made mention of it two months ago. And everyone said, what are you talking about? They thought, like, I'm kidding. It's true. And now there are stories about it. Not big stories, but there are stories about it. And I was checked by one of the reporters that said, they don't want to talk about the - and he called up and apologized. The big thing, they want to get to the Vatican.

So, if and when the Vatican is attacked by ISIS, which, as everyone knows, is ISIS' ultimate trophy, I can promise you that the pope would have only wished and prayed that Donald Trump would have been president because - it's true. It's true. Because this would not have happened. ISIS would have been eradicated, unlike what is happening now with our all-talk, no-action politicians. That's what's happening now.

We - we - we had a General MacArthur, if we had a General George Patton, I mean, they'd be gone before they even got time to go over and check it out, OK? It's a ridiculous situation.

The Mexican government and its leadership has made many disparaging remarks about me. See, the pope was in Mexico. The leadership's (INAUDIBLE). Oh, Donald Trump is a bad guy. He wants to build a wall! He wants to keep illegal immigration. It's terrible. They don't say it that way. They say, he wants people to stop having this and that.

Look, I'm wise to them. I respect Mexico. I respect their leadership. Their leadership is much smarter, much sharper than our leadership. And that's the problem. That's the problem. You know, we have a trade deficit with Mexico. Listen to this one. $58 billion. So when I say we're going to build a wall and Mexico's going to pay for it, these politicians all come up and they say, you can't get Mexico to pass a - yes, I can. They have no idea what I'm even talking about. You people do, because you have some business people here, some good business people. Some of them I know. But Mexico's going to pay, because the wall is $12 billion, $10 billion to $12 billion. That's a -

SCIUTTO: You've been listening here to Donald Trump. These are just comments just a few moments ago responding to comments from Pope Francis, who, on his flight back to Rome from Mexico, twice - and we had our own Rosa Flores on the plane, said that these comments from Trump about the wall, et cetera, means, in his view, the pope's view, that he is not a Christian.

Explosive comments. We're going to continue to follow those live. You'll remember it was just a month ago today that Donald Trump stood in a packed arena at Liberty University after a glowing introduction, which later became a personal endorsement from University President Jerry Falwell Jr. Well, President Falwell, he joins me now live from Lynchburg, Virginia.

Thank you for joining us. Frankly, couldn't think of better timing here. You heard the comments from Pope Francis about Donald Trump in response to his positions, including building a wall along the Mexico border, saying he's not Christian. I wonder what your response is.

JERRY FALWELL JR., PRESIDENT, LIBERTY UNIVERSITY: Well, I've gotten to know Donald Trump very well over the last four years and I've seen his generosity to strangers, to his employees, his warm relationship with his children, and I'm convinced - I spent a lot of time with him on his plane recently and personal conversations. I'm convinced he's a Christian. I believe he has faith in Jesus Christ.

[12:10:11] But I don't think that's the issue and I think the pope is mistaken. I think John F. Kennedy would be rolling over in his grave right now if he could hear what the pope was saying, because that's a man who fought to be president against lots of prejudice, because many protestants in this country did not want to elect a catholic president. And he broke down those barriers and now here's the pope trying to say, we have to elect leaders. Jesus said render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's. That means choose the best president. But here's the pope saying we have to choose leaders - sounds like he's saying this - that share his faith or share the Christian faith and I - I think it was wrong to make Christians -

SCIUTTO: Well, that - that's not - to be - to be clear, Mr. Falwell, the pope did not say you have to elect Christian leaders. He did not say that in his comments. In fact, when he was asked about whether he would recommend people to vote one way or another, he says he's not going to get involved in politics. What the pope said here, specifically, we want to be careful about how we describe his comments. The pope said that the positions that Donald Trump is taking, building the wall on the border, he cited as an example, the pope, he says that, in his words, paraphrasing here, that building walls, not bridges, contradicts the Gospel. On that particular issue, how do you - how do you reconcile that with the Gospel?

FALWELL: OK. But in the - in the middle of a presidential election, to question somebody's Christianity, the pope is bringing up Christianity as a - as a criteria for being president, in my - in my view. I believe that's what he said.

I think it was wrong that many Christians refused to vote for Mitt Romney because he was a Mormon four years ago. I don't think that's our job. It's not our job to choose the best Sunday school teacher, like Jimmy Carter was. It's our job to choose who would - who would defend and protect our nation, who would be the best president, who would lead us away from $20 trillion in debt and restore our country's economic viability. And that's what I made my decision on. Now, I do believe Trump's a Christian, but that's not why I endorsed him. I endorsed him because I believe he'll be the best president of the United States.

SCIUTTO: Let me ask you, just in terms of the political effects of this. Of course, South Carolina has a heavy percentage of evangelical voters - not catholic voters, but Christian voters - who may consider the words of the pope, if not gospel, so to speak, but - but something that's influential. I just want to read another comment from Donald Trump reacting to the pope's comments. He said, "I am a very good Christian. The pope said something about Donald Trump not being a Christian. For a religious leader to question a person's faith is disgraceful." It's very strong words from Donald Trump -

FALWELL: Well -

SCIUTTO: To the leader of 1.0 billion Catholics.

FALWELL: Well -

SCIUTTO: I wonder if you agree that those are - that's a disgraceful comment from the pope regarding Donald Trump.

FALWELL: Well, I can only - I can only quote Jesus Christ, who says, judge not lest you be judged. And he - Jesus called the religious elite of his day. I mean Donald Trump does not wear his religion on his sleeve, but I believe he's a man of faith. But Jesus said - called the religious elite of his day hypocrites, a generation of vipers, and he called them wolves in sheep's clothing. So if - if - if what Donald Trump said is bad, then also what Jesus said is bad, because Jesus questioned religious leaders who judged others, and that's exactly what Donald Trump said in his comments today that you just mentioned.

SCIUTTO: Well, let me get to Jesus' view, if I can. I don't mean to channel so much - my own religious education. But Jesus was someone who is forced away from his home, right, fleeing for his life, in effect, by political leaders. I just wonder, are mass deportations, in your view, something that Jesus would do? FALWELL: It was religious leaders who persecuted Jesus. They called

him a blasphemer because he said things that didn't agree with the religious dogma of his time. And so I dispute what you said about political leaders. It was religious leaders who pushed the political leaders to crucify Jesus for what he said. But - but could you repeat your question about the refugees? I'm sorry.

SCIUTTO: Well, just asking, if Donald Trump's stated position of deporting illegal immigrants from the U.S., numbering by some estimates more than 11 million, do you consider that something that Jesus would do?

FALWELL: I think that Jesus said render under Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and he left it to the roman emperor to make decisions like that. When he said, turn the other cheek, he wasn't - he didn't mean that instruction for roman soldiers who happened to be Christians. You step into a different role when you become a citizen, when you become a president of a country, a roman emperor, and so Jesus said, leave those things to the political elite. Let them make those decisions.

[12:15:11] And Jesus taught personal charity. He taught us how we treat each other, to love our neighbor as ourselves and our personal relationships. So I think you're mixing two things that Jesus never intended to - Jesus never intended to give instructions to political leaders on how to run a country. And that's clear through all his teachings. And he made that more clear than almost anything else. So I think that's the - you know, Jesus told us to help the poor, but he never said vote for somebody who is going to take money from your neighbor and give it to the poor. That's - Jesus never told us whether to vote for a socialist or a capitalist. He told us to render under Caesar, use our own brains to decide who would be the best political leader.

SCIUTTO: OK. Final question here, just back to the politics. We know about - and I asked this a bit earlier - the power and the voice of evangelical voters, Christian voters in South Carolina. Does the statement from the pope charging Donald Trump with not being Christian, just in his view, is that something that has a political effect in South Carolina? Are you concerned about that?

FALWELL: I don't think so. I think it will hurt the pope more than it will hurt Donald Trump. I just don't think people in this country take statements like that seriously. I don't think they look to religious leaders to tell them who is the best Christian. And I don't - if they're - if they're - if they understand politics, then they're not choosing a political leader based on who is the best Christian, who - who says all the right things, who uses evangelical lingo. That's not who will make the best president. I'm sorry, but I think our people are very intelligent and I think they understand that. And I don't think statements like this will have any impact at all.

SCIUTTO: Jerry Falwell Jr., thank you for taking the time today.

FALWELL: Thank you, Jim.

SCIUTTO: To our viewers, we're not going far from this story. We'll have much more right after this short break.

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[12:20:56] SCIUTTO: Welcome back.

We've been following the breaking news, really remarkable words from Pope Francis on his return to Rome from a trip to Mexico about the front-running Republican candidate here in the U.S., Donald Trump. Here's what Pope Francis had to say to reporters on the plane. He said, quote, "a person who thinks only about building walls, wherever they may be, and not of building bridges, is not Christian. This is not the Gospel. As far as what you said about whether I would advise to vote or not to vote, I am not going to get involved in that. I say only that this man is not Christian if he has said things like that. We must see if he said things in that way, and I will give him the benefit of the doubt." Very strong words from the leader of the world's 1.2 billion Catholics.

Well, just a few minutes ago, Donald Trump responded with some strong words of his own for Pope Francis himself. Let's have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And I'm a very good Christian because the pope said something to the effect that maybe Donald Trump isn't Christian. OK. And he's questioning my faith. I was very surprised to see it. But I am a Christian and I'm proud of it. OK. For a religious leader to question a person's faith is disgraceful. I'm proud to be a Christian. And as president, I will not allow Christianity to be consistently attacked and weakened, unlike what is happening now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: You've been listening to Donald Trump there. So now you have it, Pope Francis raising the idea that Donald Trump is not a Christian for his positions. Donald Trump firing back, disgraceful to have those comments.

I want to talk more about the politics, the religion of this, with CNN chief political correspondent Dana Bash, she's in Columbia, South Carolina, and CNN political commentator, Republican consultant and Sirius XM radio host Margaret Hoover.

Dana, if I could begin with you. These are remarkably strong words. Donald Trump, of course, we should expect it, not backing down. Is this a dangerous fight for Donald Trump to be - to - well, he didn't pick it. He's responding. But to be maintaining with the leader of the world's 1.2 billion Catholics?

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Honestly, it's - this is something that I don't even have words for because it's remarkable to think that the pope would engage like this in a U.S. presidential election, number one. But, number two, say that somebody is effectively not a Christian. Now, I just want to say that I have my voice down because I'm at a Jeb Bush event and it's a pretty intimate event and I don't want to be disruptive. He has not said anything about this yet. Unclear if he even knows about it because he's been speaking for a little while. Jeb Bush is a devout catholic. So I'm sure he will have some things to say about the pope's message.

But you played some of what Donald Trump said publicly. But also in a written statement, it was even more intense, Jim. He said, you know, at some point if ISIS attacked the Vatican, the pope will have wished that there were a President Trump to defend the world against ISIS, and kind of went on from there. So it is something that, again, I'm - I'm kind of at a loss for words because this is something that is so remarkable and unprecedented to have this kind of back and forth.

The one other thing I will mention, in terms of the political implications, we are here in South Carolina. The voters here from the Republican electorate are largely evangelical. Now, that's not catholic, as you know, evangelical. And they are going - are, according to our latest poll, 20 percent more for Donald Trump than Ted Cruz, who is just behind him. You know, again, evangelicals, but still, as you mentioned, to have a religious leader like the pope to say that Donald Trump is not Christian, it is going to be fascinating to see if and how that has implications with those voters here in South Carolina who do vote just in a couple of days.

Jim.

SCIUTTO: Dana, before - before I let you go, and I know you are at the Bush event, but to be clear, do you say that Donald Trump just raised the prospect of an ISIS attack on the Vatican? Did I hear that right?

[12:25:04] BASH: He said hypothetically. The effect of what he said in his statement, and I don't have it in front of me and you can pull it up, and so I'm paraphrasing right now. What he said was, that if ISIS had its way, the ultimate place that they would like to attack is a symbol of religious freedom, the Vatican. And that if that happened, then the pope and the people who follow the pope would have wished for and hoped for a President Trump to help defend against ISIS. So that's the gist of what he said. That's right. In his written statement.

SCIUTTO: Well, still, a remarkable connection to make.

Dana, I know you have to go back to covering Jeb Bush. Thanks very much.

I also want to turn now to Margaret Hoover.

Margaret, listening to these words go back and forth, the pope saying - or saying if he has said these things, these positions on the wall, et cetera, he's not a Christian. Donald Trump coming back with disgraceful him - for the pope to make those comments. Is this a dangerous game for Donald Trump to be involved in with South Carolina approaching?

MARGARET HOOVER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I don't think it's so much of a problem for Donald Trump with South Carolina, as much as it is sort of a question about whether this is beneath the stature of the pontiff. I mean you see the pope weighing in on an American political primary on the Republican side, with is utterly unprecedented. And you have a really complicated question, a policy question, about immigration. And you have a country grappling with the rule of law and migratory patterns and how to - how to best handle this. You have a Democratic president now who has had record numbers of deportations. Would he call that unchristian? I mean it just - it seems as though the pope is wading into waters that he is maybe not fully informed on.

And we've seen him, frankly, do this again before with American politics. He did address a joint chamber of Congress where he did talk about a better way of life. He talked about political polarization and gave advice to America's political leaders. And then he went and met with Kim Davis, an incredibly controversial Kentucky clerk who was refusing to issue marriage licenses to gay couples. And then after bad media backlash on that, then sort of tried to walk back through a statement why he met with Kim Davis.

SCIUTTO: Well, to be - to be fair - to be fair, Margaret, and I did some reporting on that. that was -

HOOVER: Yes.

SCIUTTO: He was not aware - his team says they were not aware. Kim Davis was -

HOOVER: Precisely my point, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Introduced by someone here in the U.S.

But on a larger issue, to be clear about -

HOOVER: But why wade into American politics is what I'm saying. I mean he's gotten really into the nitty-gritty. It just seems below the stature of the leader of 1.2 billion Catholics around the world.

SCIUTTO: But let me just play devil's advocate for a moment.

HOOVER: OK.

SCIUTTO: And let's be clear about what the pope said. The pope did not say, I recommend people to vote one way or another. In fact, he said that very clearly.

HOOVER: That's right.

SCIUTTO: He also said, if Donald Trump holds these positions, and I will give him the benefit of the doubt. So to be clear, the pope was at least making an effort to keep out of politics. In fact, he said he wanted to stay out of politics. But why - why - and, again, I'm playing devil's advocate here.

HOOVER: Yes.

SCIUTTO: The pope, who's a religious leader, who at least in the view of Catholics is Jesus' representative on earth, why can he not make a claim that in his view, from a moral standpoint, that a position about, say, deportation, building a wall, that he said - he believes is not consistent with what Jesus would teach. Why - why is that beyond - beyond what a religious leader can do? He's commenting on what he views as a moral choice.

HOOVER: He - that - which is fine. I mean that - that is - he is a religious leader. He can comment on a moral choice. But he was actually directly wading into politics by commenting on Donald Trump's position. I mean that's where I think the line is drawn, Jim. You can sort of speak broadly about what you think is godly and what you think is Christian, or you can then say that in the context of a very specific candidate, at a time of a very politically heated time. And that's the line he crossed over, Jim. And I think - I think that's where the difference is. He - he did wade into the American political process here.

SCIUTTO: OK. Fair point. And, listen, we're talking about it, right? And the candidate responded to it. So it's become part of the political debate.

HOOVER: Yes.

SCIUTTO: I want to ask about the political effects of this, if I can. South Carolina is just a couple of days away. There's a large percentage of evangelicals, white evangelicals, who take part in that race, who vote in these - in this primary this weekend. Now, of course, they're not - they're Christian, they're not catholic. And the pope is catholic. Will a statement like this, though, from an influential religious leader like the pope, move them? Will it affect them to hear from him he's not -

HOOVER: Look -

SCIUTTO: Donald - Donald Trump is not Christian. Maybe they think twice. Do you think that has a political effect?

HOOVER: I think any time the pope speaks so blatantly about anybody's Christianity, it does give anybody pause. I think everybody will sort of think about this and think, huh, what, does this make somebody more Christian or less Christian? Look, he leads 1.2 billion Catholics around the world. So, yes, I think it's - every engaged GOP primary voter ought to sort of think about it and then make their own assessment.

[12:30:01] I don't think this tips the scale in any direction for South Carolina. It's another thing we're talking about now for the next 24 hours or however long it is, unless it continues to go back and forth. But, you know, for 65 percent of the GOP primary electorate in South Carolina that are evangelical