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GOP Rivals Spar Ahead of Nevada Caucuses; Sanders Accuses Clinton of Copying His Message; Top GOP Senators Break with Party on SCOTUS Pick. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired February 23, 2016 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D-VT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We need to stand together and say, "Enough is enough."

[07:00:06] HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We can do better together.

SANDERS: The path to victory. The short three-letter answer is Y-E- S.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They're reading in a new provision of the Constitution.

SEN. SUSAN COLLINS (R), MAINE: It's clear that the president can send up a nominee.

JOE BIDEN, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We ought to be able to find a consensus candidate.

REP. PAUL RYAN (R-WI), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: This presidential election will determine what kind of Supreme Court we have.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Chris Cuomo, Alisyn Camerota and Michaela Pereira.

CUOMO: Look at that. The stage is set, literally, for the big CNN town hall. Good morning. Welcome to your NEW DAY. We are live in South Carolina, because we do have tonight's Democratic presidential town hall right here.

And there is a huge day ahead for both the Democrats and the Republicans in the 2016 race. Voters here, they're going to get to press Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders directly on the issues that matter in their lives in the CNN town hall. Just four days before the South Carolina primary. It will be a big night, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: We are looking forward to that, Chris. Can't wait to watch all of those ideas exchanged.

Meanwhile, this evening, Nevada GOP voters will caucus. Polls suggest that Donald Trump could win three in a -- this would make his third in a row. But Marco Rubio bringing in loads of establishment support in his bid to be the anti-Trump.

John Kasich and Ted Cruz, meanwhile, in damage control, Cruz even firing a stop staffer.

So we have it all covered for you. Let's begin with CNN's Sara Murray in las Vegas. What's the latest, Sara?

SARA MURRAY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Alisyn.

Nevada is kind of like the Wild West of political competitions. It's really hard to poll out here, and turnout tends to be pretty low. But Donald Trump swept in here with big momentum. Meanwhile, some of his rivals are starting the day on rockier footing.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MURRAY: Donald Trump is hoping to lock in another win in Nevada.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Forget the word "caucus." Just go out and vote, OK?

MURRAY: While Marco Rubio appears set on amassing endorsements.

BOB DOLE (R), FORMER SENATOR/PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: I'm supporting Rubio.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's conservative, and he's electable.

MURRAY: And arguing it's time for Republicans to rally behind him as the alternative to Trump before it's too late.

SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R-FL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If we nominate someone that half the Republican Party hates, we're going to be fighting against each other all the way to November. We will never win that way.

MURRAY: But right now, Trump's blows are trained firmly on Ted Cruz.

TRUMP: This guy is sick. There's something wrong with this guy.

MURRAY: Just hours before voters cast their ballots in the unpredictable caucus state of Nevada...

TRUMP: You know, it is Las Vegas. It's a little tricky. A little tricky.

MURRAY: ... Cruz was still trying to nix the narrative that his campaign plays dirty.

TRUMP: This guy Cruz lies more than any human being I've ever dealt with. Unbelievable.

RUBIO: Every single day something comes out of the Cruz campaign that's deceptive and untrue.

MURRAY: Yesterday Cruz fired his communications director. SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This morning I asked

for Rick Tyler's resignation.

MURRAY: That's after the staffer distributed a video that appeared inaccurately to show Marco Rubio dismissing the Bible.

RUBIO: Perhaps that was the most offensive one, because they basically made it up.

MURRAY: As Cruz struggled to regroup, John Kasich had his own awkward campaign moment, saying women left their kitchens to support his 1970s state house bid.

GOV. JOHN KASICH (R-OH), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We just got an army of people, who -- and many women who left their kitchens to go out and go door to door and to put -- put yard signs up for me.

MURRAY : His off-hand comment quickly called out by a voter.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'll come out to support you, but I won't be coming out of the kitchen.

KASICH: I gotcha. I gotcha.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MURRAY: Now, the Kasich campaign clarified that John Kasich was talking about early in his career, one of his early state house runs when it really was a grassroots movement, and stay-at-home moms were literally coming out of their kitchens to pitch in for the campaign.

But John Kasich did apologize, in case that comment offended anyone. And this is a candidate who could be under new pressure, as he seems to be doing a little bit better. There are some Republican donors who are talking about pressuring him to actually get out of the race and coalesce behind Marco Rubio. But of course, John Kasich, the sitting Ohio governor, has an independent streak all his own, so we will see how he responds to those kinds of comments -- Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: OK, Sara. Thanks so much for all of that background. You've given us a lot to talk about.

So here this morning, former George W. Bush political director and chairman of the American Conservative Union, Matt Schlapp; and CNN political commentator and Reagan White House political director, Geoffrey Lord. He is a Donald Trump supporter. Gentlemen, thanks so much for being here.

GEOFFREY LORD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Morning, Aly.

CAMEROTA: Great to see you. We do have a lot to talk about.

Geoffrey, you are a Trump supporter, but I want to ask you this morning about Marco Rubio. Marco Rubio seems to be the beneficiary of Jeb Bush's loss.

LORD: Right.

CAMEROTA: He has been getting lots of enthusiasm and lots of money. Fifteen top Bush bundlers, meaning the money guys, are now committed to Marco Rubio. Do you think that that could help turn the tables for him?

[07:05:04] LORD: No. As a matter of fact, Alisyn, I think that it could hurt him. I'm not in the least surprised that this is happening. And what this -- this sends a message here that the establishment is rallying to Marco Rubio, and he's their guy. In this environment, that's -- boy, that's not a good thing to be happening. And I would think that this is going to backfire on him.

CAMEROTA: It's not just money, Matt. It's also these high-level establishment endorsements. Let me put them up on the screen for you: Arkansas Governor Asa Hutchinson. Former Minnesota governor Tim Pawlenty, announced yesterday on our air that he would be supporting Rubio. Former senator Bob Dole, Orrin Hatch, Jeff Flake, Thom Tillis, Dean Heller. Matt, do you agree that this, in some way, is a liability for Marco Rubio?

MATT SCHLAPP, CHAIRMAN, AMERICAN CONSERVATIVE UNION: So Alisyn, let me get this straight. All the elected officials, especially all of these people who have been elected to serve in Washington, are standing up as a phalanx against Donald Trump. It seems to me that just makes Donald Trump's point, which is all of these insiders will stand against him, and he's going to take them on. So I actually think the endorsement route this year is a big mistake.

CAMEROTA: And Matt, what about the money route? Doesn't the money of big bundlers help?

SCHLAPP: Yes. That's hard to argue with. I think money is very important, especially when you're taking on a billionaire. So I think it's great that he's getting these bundlers.

But I actually think the story of the Jeb Bush money men is much more complicated than that, Alisyn. I think a lot of his major -- a lot of his major Texas donors are going to go to Ted Cruz. And I think there's actually division with the Florida donors. Some of them are still pretty upset with Marco Rubio for taking on Jeb Bush in the first place.

CAMEROTA: Geoffrey, what did you want to say?

LORD: Alisyn, I call that -- I call that money Kryptonite money. You can get it, but it doesn't help you a lot.

CAMEROTA: Why not?

SCHLAPP: I don't know.

CAMEROTA: Why not, Geoffrey?

LORD: It -- it doesn't help because of its source. Because it's establishment money. I mean, Jeb Bush got, what, $100 million, 130 whatever it was million dollars? And he spends all of this money. And all it did is reinforce the impression that he was a -- you know, a bought and paid for establishment guy.

SCHLAPP: But Geoffrey -- but Geoffrey, look, I agree with you on much of this, but the fact is, is that Marco Rubio does need to raise a lot of money. And the reason why Jeb Bush didn't do well with the money he raised is because his message was way off.

And so what Marco Rubio has to do is match the money with the message if he's to have any hope of stopping Trump.

LORD: Well, that's true. That's true. And so far, I mean, his message seems to be "I'm electable," and I don't really think that's much of a message.

CAMEROTA: Let's talk about some of the rhetoric on the campaign trail that has been, as you both know, fairly incendiary. And last night was no exception. I'm...

LORD: Don't understate things.

CAMEROTA: I know. I'm understating it. I mean, it's been, you know, at times, I mean, it even veers into the violent, some people say, Geoffrey. So here's an example. There was a protester last night in Vegas at one of Donald Trump's events. And this was Donald Trump's response to him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Here's a guy throwing punches, nasty as hell, screaming at everything else when we're talking. And we're walking out. And we're not allowed -- you know, the guards are very gentle with him. He's walking out, like big high fives, smiling, laughing. I'd like to punch him in the face.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: OK. So he says he'd like to punch him in the face. And I know that's Donald Trump's idea of a joke. But sometimes people are roughed up at some of these campaign events. Is that OK rhetoric, Geoffrey?

LORD: You know, it's not OK. But it's not OK also to provoke.

You know, Alisyn, last night, as you know, I have a book out. And I did a book event last night for about 150 people in suburban Philadelphia. And I can only tell you, the sentiment there about the media was pretty strong. I mean, these are just regular folks. I was taking questions from them. So I -- you know, I think that there's real sentiment here. That there's a lot of provocation going on. And nothing is ever done about it.

CAMEROTA: Yes. Geoffrey...

LORD: And Donald Trump just gives vent to it. CAMEROTA: But Geoffrey, see, there is provocation going on. But I -- I think you're talking about it from a different side. I mean, let me just pull up for you one of the reporters, Katy Turr (ph) from NBC. She sends out this tweet about what happened last night. She says, "Trump trashes press. Crowd jeers. Guy by press pen looks at us and screams, 'You are -- you" -- "B" word, basically.

LORD: Right, right.

CAMEROTA: "Other gentleman" -- hold on -- "other gentleman gives cameras the double bird." I mean, this is -- is really counterproductive, Geoffrey, this kind of rhetoric. Go ahead, Matt.

LORD: Alisyn, I think...

SCHLAPP: Hold on a second, Geoffrey. I think -- here's the thing I think you'll agree with me on, which is Donald Trump has done a great job connect to go voters. And he's telling it like it is. And there's no sacred cows. And all of that is very appealing.

But at some point he has to get to the next level here. He's getting a third, maybe as high as 40 percent in these states. I'd like to see him, if he's really going to be our runner, be able to get a majority in some of these states. And it's taking the next step, which is they see a leader in Donald Trump. I want them now to see, if he's to be the nominee, a president in Donald Trump. And a president is not someone who always takes these easy jabs. I think that's what my mom in Kansas wants to see. I think that's what a lot of Republicans want to see. Can he transcend from what he is today to being a president tomorrow?

[07:10:09] CAMEROTA: But Geoffrey, I mean, back to the vitriol against the press, isn't this dangerous on some level?

LORD: Look, first of all, there's no excuse for calling somebody the "B" word, which I understand in that video.

But here's -- here's the problem, is as again, I saw the sentiment firsthand last night. People feel that the media distorts. They don't tell the truth. They portray Trump supporters as a bunch of bigots, rubes, racists, xenophobes, et cetera, when they're just hard- working folks who are out there. They're very concerned about the shape of their country. And they feel that they are being deliberately smeared by these folks. So if that...

CAMEROTA: But Geoffrey, isn't it also that Donald Trump is -- I mean, isn't he also ginning up that feeling? You know, show us when we've labeled someone as xenophobe who's a Trump supporter.

LORD: Oh, my goodness.

CAMEROTA: Isn't Donald Trump ginning that up and making people feel violently against the press?

LORD: Alisyn, I could point to editorials from all kinds of -- the "Washington Post" this very morning is going after, editorial -- their editorial board is going after Donald Trump and his supporters. I mean -- I mean, it's disgraceful.

SCHLAPP: There's the...

LORD: It's absolute -- it's an absolute double standard.

SCHLAPP: There's a liberal -- look, there's a liberal press out there, and all these Republican candidates have a right to take them on. And I applaud them every time they do.

But what you want in your front-runner is someone who appeals to the better natures, the better angels of our nature. And I think that's the next step for Donald Trump. Can he transition to that?

CAMEROTA: All right. Matt, Geoffrey, thank you for the debate.

LORD: Thanks, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: We appreciate talking to you.

And stay with CNN all day for coverage of the Nevada Republican caucuses. Also, join us Thursday night as the remaining five Republicans square off in the final debate before Super Tuesday. Wolf Blitzer moderates live from Houston. That is Thursday night at 8:30 Eastern only here on CNN.

We also have a very big night tonight. And that is why we find Chris Cuomo in Columbia, South Carolina -- Chris.

CUOMO: There will be no punches in the face tonight, hopefully, Alisyn. That's the bar for success. We do have a lot of tough talk going on, though. We have Bernie Sanders sharpening his attacks on Hillary Clinton ahead of tonight's big CNN town hall. The Vermont senator targeting Clinton for her Wall Street ties. He actually has a counter going on for when she's going to show her Goldman Sachs speeches.

She, however, is firing back.

Let's get to CNN's Jeff Zeleny, live from Columbia, South Carolina, with the latest. What is the state of play, my friend?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, good morning, Chris.

She is firing back. Let's call it the 3-D strategy. Diminish, defeat, and define. Now, diminish, she's been calling him a single- issue candidate. Define, she's trying to point out his issues are pie-in-the-sky. And of course, defeat means that she is not going to repeat what many inside her campaign believe has been a miscalculation, to ignore and underestimate him.

She, of course, is ahead now. She has the energy behind her coming into South Carolina. She's going to keep her foot on the gas, I'm told.

But as you said, Sanders is not letting up either. He specifically said when is she going to release those transcripts of those paid speeches she gave? Yesterday in Boston he gave another sense of some of her comments, he says, sounded rather familiar.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANDERS: I have to say that I am delighted that Secretary Clinton, month after month after month, seems to be adopting more and more of the positions that we have advocated. In fact, I think I saw a TV ad, and I thought it was me. But it turned out, it was Secretary Clinton's picture in the ad.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZELENY: So Senator Sanders obviously knows he has an uphill climb here in South Carolina. But this is only the beginning of the race. After South Carolina, only some 4 percent of the delegates are even picked. He has his eye, Chris, on those Super Tuesday contests a week from today, some 11 contests overall. It's why he's going to be campaigning across the country, as well as here in South Carolina, where he comes tonight -- Chris.

CUOMO: All right, Jeff, thank you very much for setting the table for us. Appreciate it.

Right now, let's head back to Mick in New York City.

PEREIRA: All right, Chris, thank you.

Two Republican senators appear to be bucking the party trend on replacing Antonin Scalia on the Supreme Court. It is a potential stumbling block for Majority Leader Mitch McConnell's vow to block any hearing on a potential nominee. Our senior political reporter Manu Raju is live on Capitol Hill with more for us.

Hi, Manu.

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Michaela.

Now the Senate returned yesterday for the first time since Justice Scalia's death created a vacancy on the court, and Republicans by and large are taking a hard line. The No. 2 Senate Republican, John Cornyn, told me yesterday, no, there should not be any hearings.

But yes, two moderate Republican senators believe that there should be at least some consideration. Mark Kirk of Illinois said there should be at least a hearing and a vote. And Susan Collins of Maine told me yesterday that a hearing would help her assess a nominee's qualifications.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[07:15:01] COLLINS: For my part, it's clear that the president can send up a nominee, regardless of where he is before he leaves office. I believe that we should follow the regular order in this process and give careful consideration to any nominee that the president may send to the Senate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Now, at the same time, Republicans unearthed a 1992 clip of the Democratic Senate Judiciary Committee chairman, saying that the Senate should not move forward at any perspective Supreme Court nominee coming from George H.W. Bush. That Democrat, Joe Biden.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: President Bush should consider following the practice of a majority of his predecessors and not -- and not -- name a nominee until after the November election is completed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Now, right after that, Democrats really want into overdrive to clean up those remarks. Biden said that the remarks were taken out of context and actually put out a tweet which I will read to you.

It said, "In 1992, I urged the Senate and White House to work together to ensure the court functioned as our Founders intended. Remains my position."

All of which, Alisyn, really shows that this fight is only just beginning on Capitol Hill.

CAMEROTA: And Manu, it shows the value of old archival video, as well. Those -- those do tend to come up again and resurface. Manu, thank you so much.

We're also learning more this morning about the Kalamazoo rampage suspect. Detectives say he made incriminating statements about, quote, "taking people's lives." And a gun store owner says the suspect bought a heavy-duty jacket before the shootings started. The gunman was denied bail after being charged with six counts of murder, among other charges.

PEREIRA: This just in to CNN. President Obama is set to make a statement from the White House at 10:30 a.m. this morning this morning. That's ahead of submitting a plan to Congress to shut down the U.S. military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. The president is determined to close that detention facility before he leaves office, after making it a key campaign promise back in 2008. The measure includes upgrading U.S. facilities where the 91 prisoners could be transferred, which most Republicans and some Democrats oppose.

CAMEROTA: OK. So after more than 300 hundred days in space, American astronaut Scott Kelly is going bananas.

PEREIRA: I can imagine.

CAMEROTA: Literally.

PEREIRA: Oh, wait! There's a gorilla on the moon!

CAMEROTA: NASA capturing this video of Kelly, dressed in a gorilla suit... PEREIRA: They sped that up, right?

CAMEROTA: ... chasing a fellow astronaut around the International Space Station.

PEREIRA: That's the stuff of nightmares, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: I guess yes. If you didn't know that was coming on the International Space Station, that would be alarming. It turns out the costume was a gag gift from his twin brother, Mark Kelly...

PEREIRA: Of course.

CAMEROTA: ... also an astronaut, as Scott prepares to finish his year in space mission next week.

PEREIRA: That is something that a brother would do, is send you a gorilla suit in outer space.

Sounds like something your brother might do if you were sent to space station, Chris.

CUOMO: I would send my brother a gorilla suit, but it would be redundant.

CAMEROTA: Oh!

CUOMO: Because he already looks like a gorilla.

PEREIRA: There's a call coming into the NEW DAY offices for you, Chris. This will be a good town hall for you.

CAMEROTA: Hope he's not watching.

CUOMO: Please. He's asleep, holding onto his security blanket.

All right. So here in South Carolina, we're going to have Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders making their case to the voters. And let me tell you, that is a different feel. It gives people a really different look at the candidates.

Now, where are they on the issues? Where are -- what is going to make the difference here? We have two big shots from South Carolina. Former party head, former governor. And they see the race differently. Contrast ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[07:22:55] SANDERS: Whose life work is about standing up to the billionaire class, standing up to Wall Street, standing up to corporate interests, and who does not?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: That is Bernie Sanders' theory of the case. That's how he sees the choice between him and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.

Plenty of talk dividing these two right now, because they're in the race. But on policy, are they really far apart? And which one of them really gives this party, the Democratic Party, the best chance in the general election?

Let's talk with two pros: former South Carolina governor, Jim Hodges, a Clinton supporter; and Dick Harpootlian, one of the best names in the game, the former chairman for South Carolina's Democratic Party. He is with Bernie Sanders. Gentlemen, always a pleasure. Thank you very much. Good to see you both.

RICHARD HARPOOTLIAN, FORMER CHAIRMAN, SOUTH CAROLINA DEMOCRATIC PARTY: Thank you for having us.

CUOMO: There are only two questions from me in this segment. It's why and why not? All right. Let's start with the why. Why Hillary Clinton?

JIM HODGES, FORMER SOUTH CAROLINA GOVERNOR: She has the capacity to make things happen. She's proven over the years that she can get things done. She's got a great economic plan, a great plan for making college more affordable. Most importantly, I think her focus on middle class will allow us to continue to see wage growth in our country and move us forward.

CUOMO: Why not Clinton? Why Sanders?

HARPOOTLIAN: Well, I think Hillary Clinton is the same old, same old. She has taken over $20 million from the banks and the pharmas and her super PAC. She gave a speech to Goldman Sachs, several speeches, made $657,000. She won't release the transcripts. How about, Hillary, tell us what you said. You remember what you said? Did you tell them they weren't so bad? Did you tell them that you were going to support them when you're president of the United States and then tell us something different?

And that's the problem with Hillary. She's not to be trusted.

And in terms of accomplishments, as a senator, United States senator, what did she do? As secretary of state, what did she accomplish?

Her main argument is "It's my turn." And we need to do better than that. Bernie Sanders will change the game.

CUOMO: Dick, and then, Governor, push back for both of you. On you is, do you think, Dick, that the banks are bad? Do you think they're bad?

[07:25:02] HARPOOTLIAN: I sue them. I sue them. They're terrible people. Terrible.

CUOMO: You think the banks are bad?

HARPOOTLIAN: I think banks do criminal conduct every day. They rip off people. They overcharge. I sued Chase Bank, got $80 million for them ripping off servicemen while they were overseas. I sued Citibank for doing the same thing. I got a $95 million settlement from five banks for the mortgage fraud. So I'm telling you, nobody went to jail. They're not going to stop doing -- as long as it's a rounding error on their balance sheet, nobody's going to stop till they go to jail, and Bernie Sanders will put them in jail.

CUOMO: So that's the theory of the case about what was done wrong coming out of the great whatever you want to call it in 2008. That it didn't get done; Bernie would make a difference.

Is that fair pushback, your person is too close, Hillary Clinton, to the banks? She is part of that establishment, and whatever she says she's going to do will be compromised by what she already has done?

HODGES: Look, I think the problem with Dick's argument and the problem with Sanders' argument is so what happens after you go after the banks? What else are you going to do? What are you going to do for the middle class in our country? What are you going to do to get wage growth going again?

I think that's what you hear silence from the Sanders campaign, because they really don't have a plan.

The fact of the matter is, Hillary Clinton is someone who's going to have to bring us all together. To move this economy forward, to get wage growth growing again, we've got to work, all of us, work together to try to get those things done. So I think she has the ability to do this.

I might add, Dick and I both were very involved in the Obama campaign in '08. President Obama picked her for the most important job in the administration, secretary of state, and she served him ably. And if we want to look at trying to build on the Obama legacy, she is -- she is the person who can do that, the most capable of trying to build on that.

CUOMO: You backed President Obama, and you did so early, then as senator. There is an understanding -- maybe wrong, and please point out how -- that Senator Sanders does not support the work of President Obama the way Secretary Clinton does, and that he sees a need for departure from continuing that legacy, which certainly won't play well with many of the Democrats, right, because they still like Obama. And certainly not in this state. What's your response?

HARPOOTLIAN: Well, I think he supports many of the things. This -- this spin by Hillary that he's not supportive of Barack Obama, you know, it was just eight years ago that Hillary and her husband came here and stripped the bark off, or attempted to strip the bark off of Barack Obama. You know, this is the inconsistency and insincerity of the Clintons.

Now, you know, it's a Kumbaya moment. And she's saying, you know, "I want to advance what Barack Obama did." She wasn't saying that 18 months ago. And she continues to say whatever she thinks is going to move the polls. Rather than doing like Bernie Sanders does, and say, "This is what I'm going to do. I'm going to expand the Obama healthcare effort. We're going to do more about a 15-hour -- $15 an hour minimum wage. We're going to do some things about the pharma companies." The worst rip-off in this country. They -- the federal government is not allowed to negotiate with the drug companies for Medicare and Medicaid?

CUOMO: Do you think he can change those things?

HARPOOTLIAN: Absolutely.

CUOMO: How?

HARPOOTLIAN: What he can do is he can draw a line in the sand. How can he change that? When John Kennedy...

CUOMO: A Democrat shouldn't talk about drawing lines in the sand now, Mr. Harpootlian.

HARPOOTLIAN: Well, not that kind of line in the sand.

CUOMO: What kind of line?

HARPOOTLIAN: John Kennedy, in 1960, when he was running for president, said, "We're going to put a man on the moon in 10 years." Nobody said, "Are you going to use a Saturn booster? Or how are you going to get there? What's the technology?" He did it.

CUOMO: But everybody wanted to do it.

HARPOOTLIAN: Everybody wants to do this. Everybody wants the economy to improve.

CUOMO: To shut down banks and ruin people's ability to get credit?

HARPOOTLIAN: I'm not talking about shutting down banks.

CUOMO: All the jobs that they provide?

HARPOOTLIAN: No, no, no. You're not going to shut down banks. What you're going to do is you're going to take the people that committed criminal acts, put them in jail so the next guy does -- or woman does not think they will get away with it.

CUOMO: That's a sale of volition (ph). No question about it.

On your side, I don't think I was taking your side against him. What happens is you have been around a long time. You have done a lot of things. And it has created a trust issue that exists within your own party, let alone in the general. And it's one of the toughest needles to move, as we all know in politics. How they feel about you as a person is tough to change. How do you deal with that challenge and become a winner as a Clinton?

HODGES: Let me say this. First of all, one of the things about Bernie Sanders, to respond to Dick is the one I know is that to do the things that he's promised, he's got to raise taxes on the middle class. There's no way the math adds up to do all the things that he wants to do. And I don't think that Democratic voters in South Carolina or around the country want that.

In terms of the trust issue, I think part of it is that the legacy that the Clintons have had of serving well over 30 years in very important capacities, is going to remind people of the fact that Barack Obama, a very popular Democrat, trusted her to serve as secretary of state, to remind them of the good economic work that the Clintons did back in the 1990s. That's really important.

And then beyond that, I think once we get beyond the primary, it really is a comparison between Hillary Clinton and whoever the Republicans nominate. Frankly, I think she shows up very favorably in that comparison.

CUOMO: Well, we'll see what happens here. More importantly, we'll see what happens tonight. Because they're going to be talking about these issues with real voters who are living the problems. It's always a different lens for comparison then.

Governor Hodges, thank you very much.

HODGES: Good to see you.

CUOMO: Mr. Harpootlian.

HARPOOTLIAN: Good to see you.

CUOMO: Always a pleasure. Always a pleasure.

And as we're saying here, look, you get to hear from experts who know South Carolina and know the issues. And then you add another layer, which is where you're going to have your candidates sitting across from real people who are living different problems in South Carolina, and that will resonate.