Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

GOP Debate; Trump-Romney War of Words; Rivals Prep for Debate. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired February 25, 2016 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:00:17] POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: All right, top of the hour. I'm Poppy Harlow, in for my friend Brooke Baldwin. You are watching special coverage of CNN's Republican presidential debate, which is, John Berman, tonight.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Poppy. I'm John Berman at the University of Houston. Right here in less than seven hours you will see the smallest field of Republicans on stage so far under the greatest pressure in this campaign so far. Behind me are the great students of the University of Houston. They were talking to CNN's Jake Tapper just a few minutes ago. You can see they are excited, and for good reason, because tonight the debate, the stakes are oh so very high.

Donald Trump with all the momentum now after three state wins - three straight wins. The last, a near landslide in Nevada. Now at least some of the established resistance looked like it might be beginning to crack. Trump just received his first endorsements from members of Congress, while each of his competitors, to some degree, is calling on all of the others to get out of the race to give a single Trump alternative a chance to break through.

Senior White House correspondent Jim Acosta is live. I think he is inside the debate hall, where any moment the candidates will arrive to do their walk-throughs.

JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I am.

BERMAN: Jim, give us the lay of the land.

ACOSTA: You bet, John.

That's right. And these candidate walk-throughs are expected to happen any moment. You'll see all five of them, or we think representatives perhaps for Donald Trump, filing through here over the next couple of hours.

Let me just show you what the podium setup is like behind me here. On the end is John Kasich, then Ted Cruz, and, of course, Donald Trump, the GOP frontrunner, he's in the middle. On the other side of him, Marco Rubio. And then on the far end behind me, Ben Carson. And the debate layout, stage layout, is essentially an illustration of where the race stands right now, John. Donald Trump is the man in the middle. He is taking heat from all sides, including from the past GOP nominee, Mitt Romney. Earlier today, Marco Rubio was saying that Donald Trump supports parts of Obamacare. Ted Cruz, last night, was saying, this is no time to take a chance with somebody out of a PT Barnum's circus, portraying Donald Trump as something of a circus or carnival act.

And so, you know, this is going to be really the last - one of the last chances for some of these establishment figures to try to leave a mark on Donald Trump. Everybody who has attacked him so far has been unable to knock him off of that front-runner status. And last night, when Donald Trump was on "AC 360," John, Donald Trump said, every time I'm attacked, it doesn't work. And so he says he's prepared for what he thinks is coming later on tonight, and that is a much more aggressive posture for Marco Rubio.

But Donald Trump has more problems than these candidates who are going to be on stage here. He's dealing with Mitt Romney right now. As you know, John, over the last 24 hours, he and Mitt Romney have been in this sort of Twitter war over Donald Trump's tax returns. The GOP front-runner has not released his tax returns. Last time around, four years ago, John and I, you know that all too well, there was a controversy about Mitt Romney's tax returns. When are his tax returns coming out? And so Mitt Romney is sort of dishing this out to Donald Trump, saying, hey, I did this, all the traditional candidates do this. This is what traditionally is done every four years. You got to do this too.

And just in the last hour, Mitt Romney put out a tweet saying #whatishehiding. And so I think that's a pretty clear indication inside the GOP establishment, John, there is some panic going on about Donald Trump and they are - they are trying perhaps what is a last ditch effort here to weaken this GOP frontrunner, to perhaps give people like Marco Rubio and John Kasich a chance to shine on this debate stage later on tonight.

John.

BERMAN: Jim Acosta, thank you so much, inside that debate hall where, as we said, it may be the last best chance for some of these candidates to shake the momentum that Donald Trump does seem to have right now.

So much to discuss. With me, CNN's senior political analyst David Gergen, CNN political commentator Amanda Carpenter, who used to be the communications director for Senator Ted Cruz. Also with us, Todd Gillman, the Washington bureau chief for "The Dallas Morning News.'

David, let's start with what Jim ended on right there, this back and forth over Donald Trump's taxes, where the main aggressor is one Willard Mitt Romney, the 2012 Republican nominee. I suppose there are two questions here. David, you've been on the record with us saying that you think at some point Donald Trump will be vetted more than he has been in the past.

DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes. Yes. BERMAN: And this may be one of those areas that that will take place in. Be that as it may, is Willard Mitt Romney the right messenger for this attack?

GERGEN: Well, it certainly does show how much the - he's the embodiment of the establishment in the Republican Party. The nominee of the party the last time around. For him to come out, I think it's unprecedented for a man who's been running - in charge of the party to come out like this. But where's his evidence?

[14:05:10] BERMAN: Right.

GERGEN: What does he know that we don't know? That would be interesting to hear.

BERMAN: You know, impressive for the man who was the Republican nominee. And by the way, I should note that Donald Trump endorsed Mitt Romney four years ago and, in case anyone forgets, Mitt Romney went hat in hand to Trump Towers to essentially beg for that endorsement too.

GERGEN: If Donald Trump is the nominee, we will eventually see his tax returns, but I bet we will not see them in March.

BERMAN: (INAUDIBLE) until then.

All right, Amanda Carpenter, you used to work for Ted Cruz. Ted Cruz had some good news today in the form of a poll here in the state of Texas. Texas is a Super Tuesday state. It votes five days from now, next Tuesday. Ted Cruz out in front in that poll, fairly comfortably. Nevertheless, he has a lot of work to do tonight. Of all the candidates, he has had the slowest patch recently. What do you need to see him do on the stage tonight?

AMANDA CARPENTER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, if he can do what he's done well in previous performances, which I really think is read the mood of the room. He had a great moment a few debates ago where he sensed the anger at the media who were - they're trying to get the candidates to fight each other. And you kind of listen through your tick tock, well, you asked this candidate this and that and that and I'm not going to stand for it. That was probably his best debate moment. But the stakes are a little bit higher this time around because you can't just beat up on the media. You have to take it to Donald Trump, who is so wild, so unpredictable, you don't know what's coming. But something has to shift the dynamic of the field. If anybody is equipped and in a position to do it, I think it's Ted Cruz and we'll just have to see what happens.

BERMAN: Take it to - take it to Donald Trump. You say there are a lot of people inside Cruz's world who say that means stop taking it to Marco Rubio. Leave Marco Rubio alone. Where do you stand on that?

CARPENTER: Well, listen, Donald Trump is the frontrunner. I think you have to go at him. It's not good enough to beat Marco Rubio. It wasn't good enough for Marco Rubio to beat Jeb Bush. I mean we're not playing for second place. I think now is the time to play for first and so I think that's where you have to train (ph) the fire.

BERMAN: Todd Gillman, last night we saw what could be a preview for Marco Rubio. One of the big questions this entire campaign has been, will Marco Rubio ever take on Donald Trump? Well, last night he did. He actually named Donald Trump by name, went after him on his policy or his statements on Israel. Donald Trump had said the United States would - he would be neutral towards Israel and the Palestinian Authority when he becomes president and Marco Rubio says that's a bad idea. Is that a sign of what's to come tonight? And do you think Marco Rubio pushes it even further than that?

TODD GILLMAN, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, "DALLAS MORNING NEWS": Well, there's no question, for Rubio, there are two questions to go after Trump. One is, because he has to beat Trump, and the other is because he needs to stop focusing on Ted Cruz because he needs to establish himself as primarily the anti-Trump. Someone's got to do that.

Now, there's also an imperative for him and Trump both to kill off Ted Cruz. There are a lot of reasons to think that Trump still sees Cruz as the guy who most overlaps with his potential electorate. And in Trump world they think that they can dispatch him of the more establishment friendly Rubio, although he's not so establishment as Kasich. But I think everybody's going to go after Trump, but I don't think everybody's going to lay off of Cruz either.

BERMAN: You know, it's interesting, we saw a bunch of polls come out today. There's the Texas poll I was just talking about. Hopefully we can look at these polls that shows Ted Cruz out in front in the state of Texas. There's also a new Quinnipiac poll from the state of Florida which shows Donald Trump out in front of Marco Rubio fairly comfortably. And that could be fairly indicative of the fact that Marco Rubio can't wait anymore. He can't sit back and wait for the field to winnow anymore. It's time to talk about Donald Trump.

GERGEN: That's really true. That Quinnipiac poll had Trump up 44 to 28 in Marco Rubio's home state. So that - that is really, wow.

But let me just say this. On - I - you know, it is obviously in Trump's interest to knock off Ted Cruz in his home state of Texas, knock off Rubio in his home state of Florida, to knock off John Kasich in Ohio. But, I don't think it's bad news for Donald Trump if he loses Texas. If he wins both of the other states and loses Texas, he'll have momentum coming out of it and Cruz stays in the race.

BERMAN: No -

GERGEN: And he needs Cruz to stay in the race.

GILLMAN: Which is right (ph), because that keeps Rubio weak.

GERGEN: Yes.

GILLMAN: It keeps the field splintered.

GERGEN: Yes.

GILLMAN: And I think it allows Trump to keep going forward -

GERGEN: Strategically.

GILLMAN: (INAUDIBLE) rally state by state.

GERGEN: Exactly.

CARPENTER: At this point, Ted Cruz just needs to buy time in order to catch up the delegate race. If he can stay in it, do good in Texas and then make it to the winner take all states in the second week of March, there's more time on the clock to play.

BERMAN: You know, you could - the conspiracy theorists, and I've talked to a lot of strategists over the course of the day, if we can put that graphic back up, do say that that may be the best three polls that Donald Trump could have because it means Ted Cruz sticks around, it means the field doesn't clear, it means John Kasich makes it, Marco Rubio is vulnerable and there's still just as many candidates, maybe minus Ben Carson, through March 15th and that means, you know, Amanda, that Donald Trump keeps racking up enough delegates in both (INAUDIBLE).

CARPENTER: Yes. And one person we haven't talked about quite yet, but I'm very interested to hear the dynamic, is what John Kasich does. He has been more aggressive than I expected to Marco Rubio. And I got to think that makes many people, especially in the establishment who are - do want to see Marco Rubio do well, mad at John Kasich. How far can he push the envelope because he hurts the party? He's pushing it.

[14:10:14] BERMAN: But, you know what? You know why he's pushing it? It's because Marco Rubio's people have been pushing him.

CARPENTER: Sure. Correct (ph).

BERMAN: No one likes to be told they should drop out the race.

CARPENTER: No.

BERMAN: Particularly at a time when at the point that they were doing it -

CARPENTER: Not Ben Carson.

BERMAN: They had just as many second place - Kasich had just as many second place finishes before Nevada as Marco Rubio. So I think they resented being told it was time to get out.

Todd, game plan Donald Trump for me, which I know is really easy to do. It's really easy to guess what Donald Trump might do.

GILLMAN: I don't even know what it would be like in that head. I - I think that he is going to try to project being presidential. I think it's time for him - I think he understands that the time has come for him to be vetted on policy. He's going to take all kinds of incoming from the moderators, from his opponents. And hopefully for his sake he's boned up a little bit and he'll lash out at anybody who lashes out at him. I think that's his typical game plan.

BERMAN: You think he's capable of that? That requires restraint, David Gergen.

GERGEN: Yes. It -

BERMAN: Do you think Donald Trump can show restraint on that debate stage?

GERGEN: I keep wondering that and they keep disappointing. I just think he can't help himself, you know? It's sort of just in his nature. If somebody goes at him, he goes back. He goes back hard. I just think that he's (INAUDIBLE).

BERMAN: Yes, people have said all along, oh, you know, he does that and he still wins in spite of it. But last word here, Amanda, it may have hurt him in South Carolina, right? He may have won by more in South Carolina had he not had that demolition derby over, you know, September 11th and George W. Bush.

CARPENTER: Yes. Yes. And let's not forget, in previous debates, usually Donald Trump is more quiet than he is in interviews. There's a lot of pressure on Donald Trump maybe finally to start answering some questions, but usually he just kind of sits back, lets other people fight and then goes on Twitter late that night to break into the headlines the next day. And so I think this will be harder for Trump than we anticipate.

BERMAN: Hang on one second. It's Marco Rubio, the senator from Florida, arriving for his walk-through on this debate stage. Can't see - yes, there he is, getting out of the car, walking in. He's going to walk on that stage any moment. Check it out. Check out his lectern. See where his family will be sitting. See where the cameras are and make sure he's comfortable on that stage.

CARPENTER: Yes. Get that water bottle.

BERMAN: He's done a lot of debates where he's been very comfortable - well, one debate, not so much. But we'll talk about that in a little bit.

All right, David Gergen, Todd Gillman, Amanda Carpenter, thanks so much for being with us. More candidates will come for their walk- throughs tonight. We'll be watching all afternoon long. And do not forget that tonight is the night. Wolf Blitzer moderates the final debate before Super Tuesday. It all begins at 8:30 p.m. right here on CNN, also on CNN international.

Poppy, back to you in New York.

HARLOW: All right, thank you so much. We'll be back with Berman in Houston in just a moment.

But coming up next, a lot ahead this hour. Donald Trump, Ted Cruz, John Kasich all set to tour that stage ahead of tonight's critical CNN GOP debate. You'll see it live right here. Also, a debate coach joins me live on why he thinks Donald Trump

should be completely different on the debate stage tonight than he was the last go-around. A pretty fascinating strategy he'll put forth.

And as the Mitt Romney/Donald Trump fight escalates, a blast from the past. Video that may teach us a lot about this race. You'll want to see it. This is CNN's special live coverage. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:16:49] BERMAN: All right, welcome back. John Berman, here at the University of Houston.

And inside the opera house here, inside the debate hall, you can see Marco Rubio, I'm taking a look at him right now, he is standing behind the lectern where he will be at the debate tonight. That is CNN's Washington bureau chief Sam Feist showing him the ropes, showing how it will go inside there. The candidates usually like to see - they like to see where the moderator, Wolf Blitzer, will be sitting. They want to know where the cameras are. They want to know where their families will be sitting. They also want to know if there are any lights or buzzers that will go off. What it will look like on that stage.

This is a moment just to get comfortable with the surroundings because you don't want that moment you walk onto that stage behind the lectern to be the first time you're there. You don't want any surprises at all.

Such a big night for Marco Rubio. Easily the most important debate for him so far this cycle. He needs to do something to knock Donald Trump off his perch. Just a few days to go before the crucial Super Tuesday voting. Voters in 11 states will cast she ballot. And Marco Rubio wants to make sure that Donald Trump doesn't enjoy a clean sweep, the likes of which he's been having the last three contents.

So as Marco Rubio gets comfortable there, takes some notes, we'll go back to Poppy Harlow in New York.

Poppy.

HARLOW: Berman, thank you so much.

You know, follow the money, so they say, and follow the taxes, I guess, in this case. Mitt Romney with that accusation against Donald Trump, claiming that a, quote, "bombshell," could be hidden within Trump's tax returns. Well, he responded, calling Romney a, quote, "dope," and giving no indication of if or when he may release his tax returns. Romney just tweeting this, quote, "methinks the Donald doth protest too much. Show voters your back taxes. #whatishehiding."

It is worth noting and mentioning here the tension between the two men is not exactly a new thing. Back in 2012, Trump said this about Romney.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He's a great guy in person. He's got a great personality, family, everything. I mean -

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: But can you help him bring that to the little screen?

TRUMP: You know, I don't know. I mean, I'm not sure. Maybe it doesn't translate, but that doesn't make him bad in terms of what he does. He's - he'll be a great president. You know, the sad part about the world in which we live, if you do well in television, you maybe can get elected to something, but that doesn't mean you're going to be any good at what the big picture is, which is run a country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Let's remember, Trump backed Romney, supported him in 2012. He endorsed him. Let's talk all about this with Zeke Miller, a "Times" political reporter.

Let's listen again, Zeke, to the last part of that interview he did with Ashleigh Banfield.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: The sad part about the world in which we live, if you do well in television, you maybe can get elected to something, but that doesn't mean you're going to be any good at what the big picture is, which is run a country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Zeke, what do you make of that?

ZEKE MILLER, "TIME" POLITICAL REPORTER: I mean that's Donald Trump making the case that every establishment Republican has been making against Donald Trump for years, that you can take advantage - this year, that you can take advantage of the celebrity, the platform that television gives you, and then turn it around and - but that doesn't necessarily mean you'll be any good at the job. That's what Republicans have been arguing about Donald Trump all year, but voters don't seem to buy it, what Donald Trump is discovering that it makes you a very good candidate for sure. And he hasn't even had to ask that second question of whether or not it will make you a good president yet.

[14:20:21] HARLOW: Right. I think - I would assume he would say that in his case it's different, right, Zeke?

MILLER: Yes. I mean certainly he would - he would argue he would take the business experience and take that and spin that forward.

HARLOW: Right.

MILLER: But that's, you know, that's the same case that Trump has been making all cycle but that his celebrity has given him such a boost here that he hasn't really had to turn around and answer that question himself. It's kind of amazing.

HARLOW: All right, let's talk about this tax - let's talk about this tax return fight. It all started with this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MITT ROMNEY, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE (voice-over): We have good reason to believe that there's a bombshell in Donald Trump's taxes. Or either he's not anywhere near as wealthy as he says he or he hasn't been paying the kind of taxes we would expect him to pay or perhaps he hasn't been giving money to the - to the vets or to the disabled, like he's been telling us he's been doing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: That was Mitt Romney yesterday. No idea what this bombshell maybe or could be. And as David Gergen said, you know, we have no insight into what Romney's talking about. He hasn't put anything specific out there. But what could be that bad in the tax returns that could derail Trump, Zeke?

MILLER: You know, Donald Trump has gotten away with a lot this cycle and it's really hard to come up with something how that - you know, some number or some figure that would come out of there that would be so bad. Maybe if he didn't pay taxes, whatever. But it's notable that this is the same charge that was leveled against Mitt Romney four years ago by - by Harry Reid -

HARLOW: Right.

MILLER: The Democratic leader in the Senate. And it really was the charge that kind of - that hurt him more than anything else, having to say, oh, there's nothing wrong in my taxes. Most people don't have to think about there might be something wrong with their taxes. There might be something hiding, a bombshell in their taxes. They pay taxes, they - and they don't think about it again. You know, they - it just highlights the wealth, it highlights - it cuts to that point. But, you know, it's notable that Mitt Romney is making that charge against Donald Trump when there's one made against him four years ago as well.

HARLOW: But do you - certainly. Absolutely right. But as they say, everything's fair in love, war and politics. This happens all the time. But can you take us through what was most crucial from Romney's tax returns that you think hurt him with voters? Because what's very clear is that it does not hurt Donald Trump with middle class voters or even, you know, lower income voters, the fact that he is a billionaire. That hasn't hurt him at all.

MILLER: Yes, I mean, with Mitt Romney it was, you know, his tax rate was lower than what most people were paying. You know, where - where his charitable contributions were at. With Donald Trump, that would just come back to, you know, if he doesn't pay anything in tax, it's because he's exploited the tax system or he's found loopholes here and there. He would just say, I'm winning, and I'll bring that winning to the country. We've seen that - that formula from him over and over again and he's kind of Teflon on those issues. HARLOW: But, finally, I want to listen to what Ted Cruz said about

this. Let's roll it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED CRUZ (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You know, an awful lot of people speculate that he hasn't made nearly as much money as he said. Who know because he doesn't release his tax returns. But, you know, I do think - I do think Mitt has a good point, that the voters are entitled to know before they vote because you better believe the Democrats, if there's anything in there, the Democrats are going to go to town on this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: OK, he says that, Zeke, but he hasn't released his tax returns. Rubio hasn't. Actually, none of the candidates that are going to be on stage tonight have released their tax returns yet.

MILLER: Yes, I mean, that is kind of striking. None of them are going to be able to make that charge unless they release their tax returns in the next six or seven hours in time to make that argument on stage. And maybe that's a missed opportunity. You know, you can almost imagine back in Cruz headquarters or Rubio headquarters somebody's frantically running off photocopies of these things to try to get that out there so that they can make that challenge to Donald Trump on stage. But right now none of them really have the credibility to make that argument because they haven't done it themselves.

HARLOW: Exactly.

Zeke Miller, thank you very much. Appreciate it.

Coming up next, we will take you inside the CNN spin room at the debate hall as the candidates begin their walk-throughs before tonight's big showdown.

Also with Donald Trump sitting at the undisputed frontrunner, one congressman says it is time for either Marco Rubio or Ted Cruz to drop out of this race. So which candidate should stand down? Try heads or tails?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't want to suggest how they should do it. It's not a - it's not a matter of running from the fact. But, yes, if it comes down to flipping a coin, then flip a coin for the sake of future."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:28:55] BERMAN: Welcome back. John Berman, at the University of Houston in Houston, Texas, the site of CNN's Republican presidential debate tonight. There we go. This is video from moments ago. Ohio Governor John Kasich

arriving outside the debate hall. He is going to take his final walk- through. Get the lay of the land. See the stage. Be instructed where everyone else will be sitting. We're going to see him on that stage in just a few moments, so stand by for that. Governor Kasich of Ohio trailing in most polls but saying he is in this for the long hall, at least through March 15th when the state of Ohio votes.

We are just a few hours away now from this debate. Donald Trump, he will be at center stage in the debate tonight as a function of the fact that he's led in all the national polls. He's coming off three straight wins, including a big win in Nevada, the win in South Carolina, and the win in New Hampshire.

Our Sara Murray is in a room right now where everyone says they win, the spin room, where the candidates and their staffs will go after the debate to declare victory no matter what happens.

[14:30:00] Sara.

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICS REPORTER: John, you're absolutely right. This is where everyone will declare victory. And, look, the stakes for these guys on stage tonight could not be higher. This is the last debate before Super Tuesday. This is where they're going to try to stop Donald Trump's momentum or at least --