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Republicans Set to Debate in Houston. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired February 25, 2016 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[15:00:19]

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Top of the hour, 3:00 p.m. Eastern. I'm Poppy Harlow, in for my friend Brooke Baldwin today.

You are watching special CNN coverage of CNN's presidential Republican debate, which is a big debate, a huge debate, and it's tonight in Houston, where we find my friend John Berman.

Hey, John.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Hey, Poppy.

Yes, this debate is just a little more than five hours from now. You will see the smallest field of Republicans on stage so far under the greatest pressure in this campaign so far. Why? Three for three in the last three states, Donald Trump with all the momentum, New Hampshire, South Carolina, and that, you know, landslide in Nevada.

Any second now, Ted Cruz or his supporters, we don't know which one, they will arrive to do a pre-debate walk-through. They will go on the debate stage to check things out, this as there's one report that surfaced that some of those supporters might be getting nervous.

This is a combustible, controversial story in "The National Review" that says a group of prominent conservative leaders that endorsed Cruz months ago, that they held an emergency conference call this week and talked about a possibility of dropping Cruz and maybe defecting to Marco Rubio if Ted Cruz does not turn things around next week on Super Tuesday.

Joining me now from Nashville is a key supporter of Ted Cruz, the president of the Family Research Council, Tony Perkins, the author of "No Fear: Real Stories of a Courageous New Generation Standing for Truth."

Tony, thanks for being with us.

You simply say that conference call never happened.

TONY PERKINS, PRESIDENT, FAMILY RESEARCH COUNCIL: John, I got nervous when I read the story. I thought maybe they didn't invite me. But I checked around. There was no conference call.

There is no one that I have found that has embraced what was said in that story. No doubt someone's spinning yarn here. I think somebody that -- maybe like Rubio is trying to plant the seed. But I can tell you, it's not happening. There's no defections.

Look, the reason people support Ted Cruz and the reason I came out as an individual, not as the organization that I represent, is simply because he has a vision of the future. We're looking at, now, very clearly in front of us, a president who is going to a point Supreme Court justices.

And, unfortunately, we have seen how important the question has become in our culture and that it has literally reshaped the cultural landscape of our country. And we want a president who understands the judiciary, understands judicial temperament and will make the right picks.

BERMAN: You say the call didn't happen. You say you think it might be simply dirty tricks, a Rubio supporter that planted that story?

PERKINS: Well, I'm going to just say I think someone is being less than truthful. There was no conference call in which this was discussed.

Now, I'm not going to say that there wasn't a couple of people maybe on a phone somewhere talking about it that leaked a story or created a story for a reporter. But, no, there was no conference call to discuss what was laid out in that story.

BERMAN: So you say there was no conference call. Does that mean there's no angst within the broad group of folks supporting Ted Cruz? Because the last two contents did not go the way I think you all thought they might and had planned for, a third place is South Carolina, losing the evangelical vote there, third place in Nevada, losing the evangelical vote there.

How much concern is there within the ranks right now?

PERKINS: We were love to be doing victory laps around each state. I think that would be a much better position to be in, but not surprised.

This is a very tough, difficult contest. It's uphill. But as you have been talking about here just moments ago, Ted Cruz is leading in Texas by about 15 points. But you look at, you know, Marco Rubio's underwater, he's about 16 points behind in his own state of Florida.

So, it doesn't really make any sense to say that we would go to Marco Rubio, who's not yet won a state, who has not really -- does not have a track record of being a fighter. And that's what we -- we need a -- the next president who's not going to simply baby-sit America's demise, but someone who is going to be willing to go and do the things that needs to be done to counter what this present president has done in the last seven years, and that is really disassemble this republic and the Constitution upon which it stands.

BERMAN: There seems to be a split within Cruz world among folks who think that maybe should stop talking about Marco Rubio altogether and really just focus on the front-runner, Donald Trump, especially tonight on the debate, and others who say, you know, he can walk and chew gum at the same time, he needs to keep the focus on both candidates.

Where do you sit among those camps?

PERKINS: I think, first off, I think really he's got to address both policy fronts in terms of where they stand on the policies.

[15:05:01]

But I think this whole episode that has occurred since Iowa has been somewhat of a distraction from taking his attention, the campaign's attention off of the vision that they're casting for America. I think Americans want to know where we're going. And I don't think they care so much about the infighting and the elbowing that's going on here, but they want to know where we're going.

And that's the reason I'm with Ted Cruz is because I believe he has the ability, the intellect, the fortitude to take this country where it needs to go. And I think the campaign and I think Ted Cruz is better served casting that vision which they have and which distinguishes them from the other candidates.

BERMAN: Tony Perkins, thanks so much for coming on with us and clearing up what did and did not happen from your eyes at least on that conference call or the nonconference call, as the case may be. Thanks so much, Tony.

PERKINS: All right, John, good to be with you.

BERMAN: Let's talk about the big debate tonight in just a few hours from now.

Joining me, CNN political commentator Kevin Madden, a Republican political strategist who worked for Mitt Romney's presidential campaigns, plural, among others. Also with us, CNN contributor and attorney Bakari Sellers, who once served in the South Carolina Statehouse, a candidate for lieutenant governor. He's backing Hillary Clinton in this race. Also with us, senior political reporter Nia- Malika Henderson.

Kevin, I want to start with you here, because that conversation with Tony Perkins actually was pretty interesting. He used a word that set off alarm bells in my head. He used the word distraction. He actually there towards the end of the interview admitted a lot of the back and forth between Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio over the last few weeks in South Carolina and Nevada, it was a distraction.

KEVIN MADDEN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, and what happens is, and this inevitably happens in campaigns. It's whether or not campaigns get sidetracked by it.

It's whether or not there's too much of a focus on the process and a lot of these arguments about conference calls between supporters, that's not what voters are going to -- that's not what's going to influence voters. What's going to influence voters is -- and Tony Perkins did correctly allude to this -- is what's your vision for the country, why is it that I should become invested in your campaign and why is it that I think you're going to be a better steward of America's future?

I think that is key for Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz to make sure that their message is oriented towards what really is going to matter to voters out there that have yet to make up their minds.

BERMAN: Does that mean what really matters to voters who have yet to make up their minds, does that mean talking about Donald Trump, Nia, and talking to Donald Trump, maybe with some stern words?

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: One of the things you see in all these of polls from these contests, and from states that are coming up, is people want strength, and people want leadership. What does that mean?

Does that mean you want somebody to appear strong against Donald Trump in terms of going after him on a debate stage or going after him in commercials or in whatever way you can? So, I think they have to do that on the one hand, but also have a stronger vision.

I mean, if you're somebody like Marco Rubio, his entire case is essentially he's the most electable, that he can bring the party together. Most average voters are thinking, listen, I want a person who can bring the Republican Party together. They want somebody who can make America great again or make America strong.

And so I think both Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz have got to sharpen their message, but also figure out how to take on Trump and look strong.

BERMAN: Marco Rubio, it's interesting, because a new poll came out today, Bakari, from Florida, a Quinnipiac poll which shows Marco Rubio trailing by a lot in his home state, Florida, 44 to 28 percent, trailing Donald Trump there.

We heard Marco Rubio last night, it didn't get a lot of coverage, but we heard Marco Rubio for really the first time use Donald Trump's name and criticize him on policy, Israel policy. Do you think the combination of the poll and that tell means that tonight we will see a feistier Marco Rubio?

BAKARI SELLERS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: We have to see a feistier Marco Rubio, because Marco Rubio has to have a breakout-type performance tonight.

But we also know one thing Marco Rubio doesn't do well and that is either attack or get attacked. We have seen this play out one time before with Chris Christie. And when he attacked Chris Christie, or Chris Christie attacked him, it just did not go well for Marco Rubio.

But Marco Rubio really has some soul-searching to do. I brought this up with Kevin earlier today. At what point does Marco Rubio, and I know this is going to drive people crazy, think about what's best for the party and actually think about getting out of this race, because of the simple fact...

MADDEN: By the way, I disagreed when he said that. SELLERS: Yes, he did, but the simple fact is no one, no one sitting on this panel, no one that I talk to, I don't believe anybody in Rubio world can literally point to one singular state that Marco Rubio can win.

BERMAN: What is it about this campaign where every candidate but Donald Trump, there's someone suggesting that they have to get out of the race?

MADDEN: Look, Todd Harris, who is one of the top staffers in Marco Rubio's campaign, actually did something today where he basically put it on the line and said they're going to win in Florida.

For the first time, I think in this campaign, I think he's sending a message to a lot of those Marco Rubio supports out there who do believe he's the candidate that's best positioned to bring together some of these different factions inside the party and beat Hillary Clinton in November. He is embracing expectations.

(CROSSTALK)

SELLERS: There's no forever.

MADDEN: And you have to do that. There's no more of this playing for second, managing expectations going forward.

[15:10:00]

We have close to 24 contests over the next 18 days. Marco Rubio has to start winning. And sending a message he believes he's the best candidate to start doing that ideally will maybe persuade some minds.

BERMAN: I want to switch gears right now, because something else happened within the last hour that was truly fascinating.

Vicente Fox, the former president of Mexico, gave an interview to Jorge Ramos on Fusion where he was talking about Donald Trump and talking about the proposal, for lack of a better word, from Donald Trump to build a wall on the Mexican border and have Mexico pay for it. And this is what the president of Mexico said about this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VICENTE FOX, FORMER MEXICAN PRESIDENT: I declare I'm not going to pay for that (EXPLETIVE DELETED) wall. He should pay for it. He's got the money.

JORGE RAMOS, FUSION ANCHOR: Are you afraid that he's going to be next president of the United States?

FOX: Not at all.

RAMOS: What would that mean for Mexico?

FOX: Not at all. Democracy cannot take crazy people that doesn't know what's going on in the world today. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: The former president of Mexico, in case you didn't get the point there, he dropped an F-bomb.

HENDERSON: Yes, he did.

SELLERS: We got that, Berman. We got that.

(LAUGHTER)

BERMAN: And, you know, it's interesting on many levels, but, look, now in a week period here, you had the pope, Pope Francis, and you have a former president of Mexico dealing directly with a guy who hasn't even won a nomination yet.

I can't think of another time where this has happened.

HENDERSON: Yes, and this is good for Donald Trump.

The former president of Mexico is talking about him. The pope is talking about him. Obama has talked about him. This was a guy in the summer nobody thought would run, people thought he would fade away, and now leaders around the world are talking about him.

And he's always able to turn these moments around and benefit him, all of these fights he's having. He said all along that he's sort of setting the pace of discussion and setting the terms of the discussion of this race. And he is. And one of the things I think also his supporters know, you know -- he has these rallies and he says who's going to pay for the wall, and everybody says Mexico, Mexico.

BERMAN: It's call and response.

HENDERSON: Yes, it's call and response, exactly.

SELLERS: But this does outline one of the larger problems that drives the GOP establishment crazy, because that sentiment there is absolutely awakening a sleeping giant, which are voters of color in this country.

And you simply cannot be the 45th president of the United States with white male conservatives. The Republican Party, like Reagan, has to begin to open doors, something Marco Rubio could do, and bring more people into the party.

And, you know, he stated it best. I mean, he used some different language, but he did state it best and he's echoing a sentiment that a lot of Hispanic voters feel. We just saw a poll recently where Hillary Clinton is crushing Donald Trump with Hispanic voters. That's going to be a problem in November.

BERMAN: And we did see that -- a recent poll which showed Donald Trump with the lowest favorabilities among Hispanic voters. We will talk about that in a little bit.

Kevin, Bakari, Nia, thanks so much for being with us. Appreciate it.

And, again, the final Republican debate before Super Tuesday kicks off in a little more than five hours. It is only right here on CNN. Wolf Blitzer doing his last-minute stretching exercises -- Poppy, back to you.

HARLOW: I'm just picturing that, Berman. Like, what our pre-debate stretches? Who knows? All right, thank you.

Coming up next for us, the remaining Republican candidates all set to tour that debate stage, including Ben Carson, who will join us live this hour. Stick around for that.

Also, "The Washington Post" editorial board releasing another op-ed, five of them in a month, calling on Republican leaders to stop Donald Trump. Are they ignoring the voice of the voter? A Trump supporter and a columnist from "The Post" will be with me live.

And have you seen this moment from last night? It's when a protester confronts Hillary Clinton during a private fund-raiser. That protester, Ashley, will join me live. This is CNN's special live coverage. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:17:48]

HARLOW: All right, take a look there, Dr. Ben Carson touring the debate stage in Houston, ahead of CNN's GOP debate, the last debate before the critical Super Tuesday contest, Ben Carson there flanked by our Washington bureau chief, Sam Feist, who's explaining it to him, running him through the drill, showing him where his family will be seated tonight, et cetera, where he is on the stage with those five podiums.

Also with them, the vice president of CNN Design, Guy Pepper. They want to get up there, give him a sense of what it is going to be like ahead of tonight, when it all begins in just over five hours' time.

Again, Ben Carson will join John Berman live for an interview this hour. So stay with us for that.

Now to this, the unthinkable is start to look like the inevitable, not our words, that line from the fifth "Washington Post" editorial board piece this month alone, pleading with voters in the Republican Party to stop Donald Trump.

They write, in part -- quote -- "History will not look kindly on GOP leaders who fail to do everything in their power to prevent a bullying demagogue from becoming their standard bearer."

"The Boston Globe," meanwhile, urging unenrolled voters to -- quote -- "pull a Republican ballot and vote for John Kasich because it's a vote against Donald Trump."

Editorials from "The Des Moines Register," "The New York Times," "The Wall Street Journal" also decrying the possibility of a Trump presidency.

Here's the question, though. Are they just not hearing the voice of the people, the voter?

Let's debate it with Jennifer Rubin, author of the "Right Turn" blog for "The Washington Post," and CNN political commentator and Trump supporter Jeffrey Lord. Thank you for both for being here.

Jennifer, to you.

(CROSSTALK)

JEFFREY LORD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Hi, Poppy, Jennifer.

HARLOW: To be clear -- hi, guys.

You have no role, Jennifer, in the editorial board, obviously.

JENNIFER RUBIN, "THE WASHINGTON POST": Correct.

HARLOW: Obviously, you work as a journalist for the paper. They are separate. They are calling Trump a "menace," this after he gets 46 percent of the vote in Nevada. Is that at all disrespecting the voice of the voter and in a sense saying the media knows better?

RUBIN: No, I think they're advocating.

They're trying to alert the public to someone that they feel is dangerous, is a menace. Listen, I do not think, nor do I think they think, although they can certainly speak for themselves, that the core of Trump voters are reachable. They're reacting in an emotional, visceral way.

[15:20:02]

What they're trying to do, I think, is to speak to Republicans who are supple to reason, who can rally around a single alternative to Trump. So, although it doesn't seem like that is having much of an effect, in fact, we are seeing a narrowing of the Republican field.

And then you are getting down to a few candidates who potentially have the opportunity to upend him.

HARLOW: Jeffrey, what say you? Do you think it's ignoring the voice of the voter?

LORD: Yes, I'll tell you, I read that "Washington Post" editorial and some of the others from around the country that you have quoted.

This reminds me of a couple years ago there was a small bestseller called "The Ruling Class" by a professor out of a -- a professor emeritus from Boston University named Angelo Codevilla. And basically what he's talking about is we have got a ruling class in this country, elites, who have decided that they're smarter and morally and intellectually superior to the rest of us and so they get to make all the decisions. That editorial in "The Washington Post" this morning was a pluperfect

example of that mentality. It was snippy, snooty, elitist.

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: And we know you're a Trump supporter.

(CROSSTALK)

RUBIN: I find nothing more elitist than Jeffrey Lord, by the way, nor do I find anything more elitist than Donald Trump, who's a billionaire.

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: Let me push back with this question, OK? This is an unprecedented race, this is an unprecedented candidate.

This is a candidate who has said that this week he -- quote -- "liked to punch him in the face," talking about a protester, Jeffrey. This is also a candidate who said, "If I stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody, I wouldn't lose voters."

So some would say, look, this is just responding to something we have never seen before, Jeffrey.

LORD: You know, the other week, the other day, Poppy, I did a book event on Trump in front of an audience of -- supplied by a conservative radio station.

I listened to them. I was really amazed at the intensity of the feeling they have about the kinds of things we're talking about. In terms of these protesters that show up, I have a column today at "The American Spectator." These are the kind of folks that trailed Hubert Humphrey in 1968 yelling "Sieg heil, sieg heil" and referring to Hubert Humphrey as a Nazi and all of this.

This is what I call the violent left. These are people who go to these rallies looking for a physical fight, looking for violence, hoping that they can get it. The difference is that poor Hubert Humphrey, who used to sic his Secret Service men and the police on them, Donald Trump's Secret Service and others do the same thing now.

That's all. We're just removed from, you know, any number of years, but it's the same phenomenon at work. And, you know, it's thuggery. That's what it is.

HARLOW: I want to get your response on this, Jennifer Rubin. That's not exactly what I asked Jeffrey, but that's his point.

What do you say?

RUBIN: Listen, Donald Trump is a bigot, is a misogynist.

LORD: Oh, my.

RUBIN: He is an ignoramus. And people who are concerned about the Republican Party are speaking up.

Now, the problem is that Jeffrey Lord goes to a group of talk radio audience members and thinks that's the Republican Party. It's not. It's a very small segment of it. And the issue is whether a very small, very loud segment can be called upon...

LORD: Well, who are all these voters in New Hampshire and South Carolina, Jennifer?

RUBIN: Sixty-five percent of them didn't vote for Trump. They're divided amongst other candidates.

The question is whether those other Republicans who are amenable to reason can rally in opposition to this guy. And we're going to see whether they do or not.

If not, there will be a new Republican Party under some other name.

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: Thank you, Jennifer Rubin. Jeffrey Lord, thank you both.

I have to leave it there. I wish we had more time.

LORD: Thanks, Poppy. Thank you, Jennifer.

HARLOW: You guys can keep talking in the commercial break. I got to get a break in here. Thank you so much.

Coming up next, I will be joined by an activist who confronted Hillary Clinton at her fund-raiser. How did Clinton handle it? You will see the video here next.

Also, we're back live in Houston, as we count down to tonight's CNN GOP debate, the last one ahead of Super Tuesday. Dr. Ben Carson will join us live for interview just moments away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:28:31]

BERMAN: John Berman here at the University of Houston in Houston, Texas.

Just five hours from now, the five remaining Republican presidential candidates will take the stage in the final Republican debate before Super Tuesday, Super Tuesday, the single day when the most delegates are at stake this entire primary season, which means a lot is at stake tonight and in the next few days.

Joining me to discuss, Maeve Reston, CNN national political reporter, Matt Lewis, conservative writer and CNN political commentator, also a senior contributor for The Daily Caller, and joining us as well, Jason Casellas, associate professor of political science at the University of Houston. Professor, you outrank us all, so I'm going to start with you.

(LAUGHTER)

BERMAN: Donald Trump, the man in the middle tonight, literally. He's been leading in the polls since August, so he's been in the center stage of every debate. He's at the center once again tonight, this time with the wind at his back after winning in three states.

But there's a new poll out today from "The Washington Post" and Univision which does show where there could be some problems with him long-term. I'm talking general election. And that's among Hispanics, where he is unfavorable to some 80 percent of them. You can see trailing Hillary Clinton 73 percent to 16 percent.

This is just what the Republican Party feared after 2012, when they wrote their so-called after-action report. This is just what they wanted to fix.

JASON CASELLAS, UNIVERSITY OF HOUSTON: Yes, this is a problem.

I mean, Donald Trump's campaign, I think, has gone to the right on immigration. And that's been a problem, I think, for a lot of reaching out to the Latino vote.

And, you know, Mitt Romney didn't so well last time. He got about 27 percent of the Latino vote. But if the polls look right, it looks like Trump, if he gets the nomination, would do even worse. And that could pose a problem in swing states --