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Anti-Trump Revolt by Mitt Romney?; Ex-Clinton Staffer Bryan Pagliano Gets Immunity in Clinton E-mail Probe. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired March 03, 2016 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:00:00] CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Hole in one on the course. Woods himself denied. The little guy is now credited with having the very first ace to be recorded at the playgrounds, as it's called, and it happened on his very first swing. Crozier's achievement earned him an autographed score card, a hug from Tiger Woods and a mention on Twitter. By the way, he beat Tiger Woods by three shots.

The next hour of CNN NEWSROOM starts now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO: Happening now in the NEWSROOM, Romney ready to rip into Donald Trump.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mitt Romney is a unifier. We're speaking for the 65 percent of the people who didn't vote for Donald Trump.

JEFFREY LORD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: He thinks this is going to send some message to conservatives.

MARGARET HOOVER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: This is the moment to pull out all the stops.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's too little and it's too stupid to bring out Mitt Romney.

COSTELLO: But can the party's 2012 pick stop Trump's march to the nomination?

Let's talk. Live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO: And good morning to you. I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me. Next hour mild mannered Mitt Romney is expected to unleash on Donald Trump's presidential bid, bludgeoning his fellow billionaire as a phony and a fraud. Romney becomes the newest face of the establishment's anti-Trump revolt. They want voters to nominate anybody else, any other GOP candidates saying nominating Trump would guarantee the Democrats' hold on to the White House.

Trump launching a preemptive strike of his own with this new ad, and already out mocking Romney's 2012 bid on the morning shows.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He begged me four years ago for my endorsement. I mean, literally begged me. And he's a failed candidate. I mean, frankly, I backed him. He failed. He was a horrible candidate. Didn't know what he was doing. He disappeared in the last month before the election.

Mitt Romney is a stiff. Mitt Romney will not get elected. Mitt Romney failed twice and really failed last time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: So here's a glimpse of happier times between the two men. You remember back when, back in 2012 when Donald Trump right there endorsed Mitt Romney, and Romney seemed to be a happy camper about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MITT ROMNEY, 2012 GOP PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: There are some things that you just can't imagine happening in your life. This is one of them. Being in Donald Trump's magnificent hotel and having his endorsement is a delight. I'm so honored and pleased to have his endorsement.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: We're covering all angles of this growing chasm within the Republican Party. I want to begin with CNN's Sunlen Serfaty. She's in Kansas this morning.

Good morning, Sunlen.

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you, Carol. Yes, those happier times that you just played between them no longer. Today will be a much different scene than that scene in 2012 with both of them standing together.

Mitt Romney is going to completely unload on Donald Trump today when he speaks in Utah a in a little over an hour now. According to an early look at his speech, Mitt Romney will plan to say, quote, "Here's what I know, Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud. His promises are as worthless as a degree from Trump University. He is playing the American public for suckers. He gets a free ride to the White House and all we get is a lousy hat."

So some pretty tough words from Mitt Romney there. This also comes at a time when anti-super PAC group running some big ads against Trump, really unleashing a big amount of money on the air waves, flooding the air waves completely with these anti-Trump ads like this one that's debuting this week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How much do we really know about Donald Trump on healthcare.

TRUMP: Everybody has got to be covered.

SCOTT PELLEY, CBS "60 MINUTES": Universal healthcare?

TRUMP: I am going to take care of everybody.

PELLEY: But who pays for it?

TRUMP: The government is going to pay for it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On President Obama's stimulus.

TRUMP: I thought he did a great job tonight. He's a strong guy who really knows what he wants and this is what we need.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SERFATY: An this anti-Trump push really sets the stage for tonight's debate in Detroit. A lot of candidates really feeling the urgency of the moment. Critical time really to change this trajectory going forward if they're going to do so -- Carol.

COSTELLO: We'll see. Sunlen Serfaty reporting live from Kansas this morning.

As we said it's a full court press against Donald Trump. And the billionaire is tweeting up a storm this morning. A few examples, quote, this from Donald Trump. "Failed candidate Mitt Romney who ran one of the worst races in presidential history is working with the establishment to bury a big R win." And this tweet, quote, "I'm the only one who can beat Hillary Clinton. I am not a Mitt Romney who doesn't know how to win. Hillary wants no part of Trump."

Mr. Trump is also cleaning up his own mess. Disavowing the former grand wizard of the KKK, David Duke, one more time on the "Today" show.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I don't know him from the standpoint I never met him, but I certainly would not have anything to do with him or the KKK. And everybody knows that. And I say how many times do I have to disavow. And right after that, I tweeted that I disavow any -- you know, any endorsement or anything of David Duke. Who would endorse David Duke?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[10:05:10] COSTELLO: With me now to talk about Trump versus Romney, Adriana Cohen, a "Boston Herald" columnist, radio host and Trump supporter. I'm also joined by Liz Mair, a Republican strategist and former RNC campaign director, and Mark Preston, CNN Politics executive editor.

Welcome to all of you.

ADRIANA COHEN, BOSTON HERALD COLUMNIST Thanks for having me.

LIZ MAIR, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Great to be with you.

COSTELLO: Great to have you all here. So, Adriana, in an hour and a half, Mitt Romney will call Mr. Trump a phony and a fraud. Do you think Mr. Trump will be watching?

COHEN: Absolutely. Everyone will be watching. But here's the deal. I have a column about this today in the "Boston Herald." It's on the front page of the paper. Mitt Romney needs to go home. He should not be interfering in democracy. The will of the people, they have -- we have the right to vote. All the voters have spoken, and if Donald Trump is the frontrunner right now, that's where he belongs.

All 17 GOP candidates have had virtually a year to make their case, and if they haven't done it by now, and if the people haven't voted for them, then that's it. Mitt Romney should not be interloping and interfering with the will of the people.

COSTELLO: Liz, doesn't Adriana have a point? I mean, the people have spoken in 10 states.

MAIR: No. She doesn't have a point.

COHEN: Right.

MAIR: First of all, we have freedom of speech in this country and that applies just as much to Mitt Romney as it does to Donald Trump, me, her, you, anybody. Mitt Romney is absolutely entitled to go out and speak his mind about any subject that he wants to including this one. You can have a discussion about whether that is politically well advised, but it is absolutely ridiculous to be suggesting that Mitt Romney shouldn't get to state his opinion on something.

I know that Donald Trump wants to extend libel laws so that he can sue anybody for writing anything remotely negative about him and I know that there are a lot of Trump supporters who have a problem with anybody even saying mild critical of Donald Trump. But we do still have a First Amendment in this country and that does protect Mitt Romney and what he's doing here, and I think he's entitled to do it.

At the end of the day, we have not had all 50 states vote. We need to have all 50 states plus the territories vote as part of the nomination process. When you've only had a handful of them vote so far, you know, at the end of the day, Donald Trump hasn't amassed the delegates that he needs to win. And so treating him as if he is the obvious nominee when that hasn't been fully completed is a little bit early.

I certainly admit that it is likely at this point that Donald Trump will be the nominee, but he's not the nominee yet, and we do have a First Amendment, and Mitt Romney is entitled to say whatever he thinks about this.

COSTELLO: OK.

MAIR: And it doesn't matter what anybody thinks about it. It's the Constitution.

COSTELLO: Mitt Romney will say his peace in just about an hour and a half.

So, Mark, I will pose this question to you. I know that most people expect Mitt Romney not to say, hey, I'm going to jump in myself. But could that still happen?

MARK PRESTON, CNN POLITICS EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR: Well, you know, those who are very close to Mitt Romney, and he has a very small circle of advisers. So oftentimes when people say that they know what Mitt Romney is think they really don't know what he's thinking. But what I'm told from those who are very close to him is that he has no intention of getting in. And in fact, people have tried to draft him to run whether it would be to run as a Republican or potentially to launch this third party candidacy.

We basically know what Mitt Romney is going to say in an hour and a half. They have put out the excerpts. Certainly the key ones. I think the big thing for all of us to watch, though, is how does this play out over the next few hours and the next few days. And I think how Mitt Romney reacts to the reaction to his speech is really going to be telling about what role he's going to play in his own personal life and politics and also how he'll play, you know, in this fight for the Republican presidential nomination.

COSTELLO: Because I was going to ask Adriana, two questions, actually. One, will Trump supporters really care what Mitt Romney says or establishment Republicans or anyone, and two, how will Mr. Trump respond in tonight's debate?

COHEN: Well, first off, Trump supporters don't care what Mitt Romney has to say. And it goes beyond Trump supporters. What Mitt Romney and the establishment are missing is that -- this isn't just about Donald Trump this race. This is about a movement. This is about millions of Americans who are frustrated with the dysfunctional failings of Washington establishment. They keep failing our country. And so Republicans all over this country want change. That's why Donald Trump is succeeding because he's an outsider. He would act as a change agent and b and disrupt the status quo.

And that is what's desperately needed in Washington because we know Washington is broken. For the last thing we should be doing is sending more politicians down there and nothing will change. And so I think that's one of the main reasons why so many Republicans are voting for Donald Trump, and let's say this. It's not just Republicans. Democrats are voting for him, and independents, and we saw that in Massachusetts. Just since January 1st of this year, Massachusetts, 20,000 Democrats quit their party and 16,000 of them became independents. Why? So they can vote for Donald Trump.

[10:10:01] And he even won here in Massachusetts. And so Mitt Romney is going against the will of the people.

COSTELLO: It's not clear all of them quit the party to vote for Donald Trump. OK. Well --

(CROSSTALK) COSTELLO: I will say, I will say, Liz, that Adriana has a point. I mean, I'm reading through Mitt Romney's speech, and I see a lot of slams against Donald Trump, but I don't see anything that inspires hope. Because whatever -- you know, you might not agree with Mr. Trump, but he's inspiring something. He's inspirational to a lot of people who are voting for him.

MAIR: Well, I think --

COSTELLO: So Mitt Romney -- go ahead.

MAIR: I think he's seizing on a lot of anger that exists out there, and I think it's true that anger does exist out there, but I think it's absolutely ludicrous to suggest that the answer to the problems that we're having with governance in this country is to double down on a failed big government, liberal, very left leaning approach. And if you actually look at Donald Trump's issue positions, that's exactly where he is on the issues.

He is not conservative. It's absolutely no surprise that a huge, huge chunk of his voting base comes from the Democratic Party, from moderate and more economically liberal voters who have suddenly decided to affiliate as Republicans because the guy is a big government liberal. He's not a conservative. And that's a matter of fact. And the problem with the fact --

(CROSSTALK)

COHEN: The establishment should be happy that he's expanding the party. He's grown the party. Voter turnout is up 25 percent.

MAIR: I'm not happy about -- no. Expanding the party in order to deliver Democratic big government liberal policy wins is not something that anybody who actually cares about conservative policy can get behind. You're mistaking -- you're mistaking conservatives and libertarians --

COHEN: Why do you think he's big government? Where has he said he's going to grow government?

MAIR: Are you freaking kidding me?

COHEN: Conservatives wants to reduce government.

MAIR: Everywhere. Everywhere. He doesn't. He doesn't. He said he will not do anything to re-inform entitlement. He's for green energy mandates. He's for eminent domain abuse. This is a guy who wants to raise taxes. This is a guy who wants to institute a single-payer health care scheme in his own words. He has been saying this for, like, 30 years and he continues to say it now.

In what respect is that small government? There's nothing small government. The only difference between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton is that Donald Trump is a little less keen on Mexicans that Hillary Clinton is. And you know, you may be mistaken --

COHEN: I disagree with that totally.

(CROSSTALK)

COHEN: There are distinct differences between him and Hillary Clinton.

COSTELLO: OK, OK. Wait. Wait.

(CROSSTALK)

COSTELLO: I'm going to stop you ladies right now. Wait. Wait. Wait. Stop. Stop. Stop. I want to ask Mark --

MAIR: Another difference is Hillary Clinton hasn't been endorsed by the KKK or David Duke and her kid isn't going out and doing great new shows with over white supremacists.

COSTELLO: We heard -- we heard --

COHEN: You know what I don't --

MAIR: That's another difference.

COSTELLO: OK. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Mr. Trump disavowed David Duke already on the "Today" show. So let's leave it there. OK. Well, let's stop right there.

Mark Preston, I'll ask you the last question so you get the word -- you know, usually when we talk about conventions, they're yawners because all is said and done. But this one most assuredly will not be decided, right?

PRESTON: Well, so here's the thing. The establishment right now is looking at different paths right now to try to stop Donald Trump. One of them is to try to deny him the delegates needed to become the nomination and how you do that is you try to keep the remaining candidates in the race, John Kasich, Marco Rubio, Ted Cruz, try to keep them in, have them win states throughout.

Donald Trump doesn't get the number of delegates and then they deny him the nomination when you get to Cleveland. The second thing is to have the third party run as you had suggested and we've discussed earlier the fact is, can you do somebody -- run somebody as a, quote, unquote, "true conservative," becomes a safe haven for Senate candidates, House candidates, who do not want to associate themselves with Trump to then associate themselves with that candidate. But when it does come to Cleveland, if Donald Trump is the nominee, I think, and we've heard this from members of Congress already, is that there's a chance that you're going to have a lot of people who actually don't show up.

Here's the one thing. The one unifying factor, though. Even though there is this civil war going on in the Republican Party, a very smart person said this to me the other night, the bonding glue that could bring the Republican Party back together in November as fractured as it is two words, and those two words is the Supreme Court. There's a justice, you know, up. They have to fill the Scalia seat and Republicans at some point have got to make a choice, do they want Hillary Clinton, if she's the nominee and the eventual winner in November, to fill that slot, or do they want a Republican? And that's a big, big question that they have to ask themselves.

COSTELLO: All right. I have to leave it there. Liz Mair, Adriana Cohen, Mark Preston, thanks to all of you.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, from refusing to speak to lawmakers to now cooperating with the feds. Why a man who worked for Hillary Clinton has reversed course.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:18:29] COSTELLO: For months both federal officials and lawmakers have wanted to talk to Bryan Pagliano. He helped Hillary Clinton set up a private e-mail server. They may get their chance.

Here to tell us why, Joe Johns, our senior Washington correspondent. Hi, Joe.

JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Carol. This is problematic politically for Hillary Clinton. Any time we're talking about this, we're not talking about the message she's pushing. Republican critics calling this an ominous development. But as far as any legal case goes, it can be seen as a step toward injecting transparency into the issue of those State Department e-mails and the private server of the former secretary of state could once and for all get answers to questions that have been dogging Clinton and her campaign.

Bryan Pagliano was forced to invoke his right against self- incrimination in this case in no small part due to a congressional investigation. A common practice for lawyers to advise clients to shut up in situations like this until some arrangement is made. Now that he's gotten immunity, he's free to talk to investigators without the threat of prosecution as long as he sticks to the truth.

Investigations have found Clinton received information in e-mails that wasn't marked as classified but should have been kept inside the government's secure system. Now the federal investigators have secured Bryan Pagliano's cooperation, they can make progress in the part of the investigation to determine whether any laws were broken. Major questions in investigations like this is whether anybody knew they were -- transmitting classified information.

[10:20:03] The Clinton campaign has been saying all this information needs to get out in the open. That was the message on Wednesday. Brian Fallon, the Clinton spokesman, releasing a statement saying, "Secretary Clinton has been cooperating with the Justice Department's security inquiry, including offering in August to meet with them and assist in their efforts if needed."

Republican presidential candidate Ted Cruz on FOX said -- he suggests Hillary Clinton could be badly wounded as a candidate as a result of this -- Carol. COSTELLO: All right. Joe Johns reporting live from Washington.

Even without that e-mail controversy, the picture isn't exactly rosy for Clinton's campaign. Her biggest competition comes from Donald Trump, really. And from the size of his rallies, you'll see them soon, I guess. Anyway, you hear how excited and enthusiastic Donald Trump's crowds. Well, Hillary Clinton's doesn't have quite the same enthusiasm, let's say.

In an interview with Politico, Mudcat Saunders, a rural Democratic strategist, as Trump could, quote, "beat Clinton like a tied up billy goat."

With me now, former governor Jennifer Granholm. She's also the senior adviser with the Correct the Record super --

(LAUGHTER)

JENNIFER GRANHOLM, FORMER MICHIGAN GOVERNOR: My god. I love Mudcat. He is just so -- just such a rich language.

COSTELLO: I know. It was very colorful. But the question is, is he right?

GRANHOLM: Well, if you just even look at Super Tuesday, Donald Trump got 3.3 million votes and Hillary Clinton got 4.1 million votes. So the question is, it's not how many people show up at your rallies. It's how many people show up in the polling booth. And she is going to work every single day to make sure every one of her voters that come from a very broad coalition are showing up on Election Day.

COSTELLO: But still, even during the primaries and caucuses, more Republicans showed up to participate than Democrats. So a lot of Democrats are worried about that saying, well, Democrats aren't really excited about the election this time around.

GRANHOLM: Yes. Yes, I mean, there is no doubt that the party that holds the White House historically has had lower turnout in the primaries. But it is not an indicator of who will turn out in the general election. It is historically true that the more candidates you have, the greater the turnout will be. But ultimately, if their nominee is Donald Trump, and who knows what's going to happen between now and their convention, but if their nominee is Donald Trump, you can -- you better believe that a lot of the turnout on the Republican side might have been an anti-Donald Trump turnout as well. And that is an opportunity for Hillary Clinton.

COSTELLO: OK. So Trump -- although, Trump is attracting working class white male voters in a way that Hillary Clinton is not, and she needs some of those voters to support her if she's to win the presidency. So why is she not attracting that particular bloc of voters?

GRANHOLM: Well, she's certainly going to work on attracting every vote she can, but particularly those who've been left behind in this economy. And the kicker is, Carol, that, you know, Donald Trump is saying, yes, I'm for you. I'm for the little guy. I'm telling it like it is, but every day we are seeing new and more and more information about how he's not there for the little guy, that he's actually in it for Donald Trump and Donald Trump alone.

Do we really want this guy who lodges insults the minute anybody attacks him with his fingers on the nuclear codes? What if there's an enemy outside of the U.S. that insults him? I mean, do we really want somebody without presidential temperament to have this, somebody who is going to fight for himself and somebody who has, believe me, volumes of opposition research that has been generated about him? It is about time the Republicans start showing those voters who have signed up for him that they are really having the wool pulled over their eyes. He is not about them.

COSTELLO: Well, here's the other thing. Donald Trump himself has already said I have my arsenal ready to go at Hillary Clinton. And we know -- we've gotten a few hints about which way he's going to go. Right? He's going to talk about her e-mail controversy, right? He's going to say the FBI is investigating her. And he's going to attack Bill Clinton about his sex scandal, and he's going to attack Hillary Clinton for dissing some of the women accusing Clinton of sexual misbehavior. How will she defend herself?

GRANHOLM: I mean, first of all, that is total garbage. That last little piece. But the bottom line is for her, she is not going to get into the mud with the pig. She is going to tell people how she's going to fight for them, and believe me, there is enough information. I mean, Democrats are not going to sit back and wait like the Republicans have to punch Donald Trump in the nose the minute he becomes the nominee. They will punch and punch hard, and there's lots of material to demonstrate that she is on their side, on people's side, and Donald Trump is not.

This is going to be a very interesting election. A very colorful election, probably, if it is Donald Trump that is the nominee.

[10:25:05] COSTELLO: Yes, it will be colorful, indeed.

Jennifer Granholm, always a pleasure. Thanks so much.

GRANHOLM: Thanks, Carol.

COSTELLO: Quick programming note for our viewers. Next week kicks off kind of March Madness here on CNN. It starts with Sunday's Democratic debate in Flint, Michigan, at 8:00 p.m. Eastern followed by the premier of "RACE FOR THE WHITE HOUSE," then it's Super Tuesday round two.

On Wednesday the Democrats take the debate stage again in Miami followed by the Republicans on Thursday. Again that's all right here on CNN.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, in about an hour Mitt Romney is expected to attack the frontrunner, Donald Trump, saying, quote, "Donald Trump gets a free ride to the White House and all we get is this lousy hat." I wonder if Trump will be watching. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)