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Stopping Trump; Hillary vs. Bernie in Michigan; New Evidence in O.J. Simpson Murder Case?. Aired 15-15:30p ET

Aired March 04, 2016 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:52]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: And we continue on, top of the hour. I'm Brooke Baldwin. You're watching CNN.

We are following what could be a massive bombshell in the O.J. Simpson murder case from two decades ago. The Los Angeles police say they are testing a knife reportedly found on the grounds of O.J. Simpson's former home at Rockingham Estates. That is where Simpson lived at the time with his ex-wife and her friend Ronald Goldman, who were both brutally slain in 1984.

O.J. Simpson, as you well know, was tried and acquitted for those infamously gruesome acts. The murder weapon, a knife, was never, ever found, and here is what we have just heard from LAPD.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CAPT. ANDREW NEIMAN, LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT: So this is what we know. About within the last month, LAPD became aware of an item that was allegedly recovered by a citizen at the Rockingham property possibly during the demolition of the site.

We need to vet that. We still don't know if that's a accurate account of how this item came into our possession. The actual item is described as a knife. I'm not going to go into the description of the knife because that could be germane to determining whether or not this actual piece of evidence is, in fact, evidence, or it's just a facsimile or a made-up story.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: The Hollywood version of the Simpson trial is now playing out on the cable network FX in the miniseries "American Crime Story: The People vs. O.J. Simpson."

CNN's Paul Vercammen kicks it off for us this hour. He's Los Angeles. More on what he heard from the Los Angeles Police Department, beginning with exactly what do we know about the knife, how long ago was it found. Talk to me.

PAUL VERCAMMEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brooke, they are saying that the knife was apparently found somewhere around 1998 when they were tearing down Rockingham, the O.J. Simpson matter. This, of course, is the version given to the LAPD by this retired officer. They will not be specific about the knife, as you heard. They don't

want to give away any evidence. However, when I said, was it a machete, was it a kitchen knife, was it a pen knife, they said it definitely was not a machete.

Somewhere in there, it has to fit the confines of that six-inch missing murder weapon because why else would they go so far as to hand it over to their detectives right now in the special investigations lab and look it over for anything they could possibly find? That would be blood, that would be DNA. It would possibly be if they're super lucky a fingerprint, anything of that nature.

Brooke, that's what they're pouring over right now. That other huge colossal mystery, Brooke, is why in the world would a retired police officer...

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Hold on to the knife so long.

VERCAMMEN: ... what could be -- yes, why, why?

So here's what Captain Neiman said when pressed on this. Let's take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NEIMAN: I was really surprised. I would think that an LAPD officer, if this story is accurate, as we're being told, would know that any time you are -- you come into contact with evidence, that you should and shall submit that to investigators.

So, I don't know what the circumstances are, why that didn't happen, or if that's entirely accurate, or if this whole story is possibly bogus from the get-go.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VERCAMMEN: And I think what he meant by bogus from the get-go is what if the construction worker simply shows up to this officer, who is doing movie duty, he's in uniform, but he's not on police duty, and what if he grabs a knife from home or so and says, hey, here's a knife, check it out?

They certainly are going to have to explore the possibility of that and they will also explore the possibility that this could be perhaps the most sensational and infamous missing murder weapon ever, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Could be nothing, could be everything. Paul Vercammen, thank you so much in L.A.

Let me bring in the panel here. I have CNN legal analyst Paul Callan, who represented the estate of Nicole Brown Simpson in the civil trial against O.J. Simpson. Paul is the author of "American Tragedy: The Uncensored Story of the Simpson Defense," now with the untold story of the civil trial. Also with us, Lawrence Kobilinsky of John Jay College of Criminal Justice. He's a forensic scientist and CNN contributor. Also with me, criminal defense attorney Tom Mesereau.

[15:05:10]

So, welcome, welcome to all of you.

Larry Kobilinsky, first to you. I was talking to detective -- with retired Detective Tom Lange top of the last hour. This is the guy who was on the phone with O.J. in the infamous white Bronco chase, led this whole investigation.

He said to me, Brooke, there have been so many knives found over the years. So, just keep that -- I have that in the back of my mind. That said, what can they look for with this knife?

DR. LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, PROFESSOR OF FORENSIC SCIENCE, JOHN JAY COLLEGE OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE: Well, first of all, it's a forensic case at this point.

You take the knife. You have got to photograph it, diagram it, make measurements, how wide is the blade, how wide is the handle, how wide is -- how long is the blade? All those measurements are made. Then they're going to swab it.

I doubt fingerprints are going to come into play here. It's been so long.

BALDWIN: 1998, apparently.

(CROSSTALK)

KOBILINSKY: It's been buried for four years.

So they will do -- they will swab it, they will do some presumptive tests for blood, which may or may not come back positive. They will then DNA test it. If they get any results, it might be a single source, it might be a multiple source.

Of course, they have to make -- if they get any results, they have to make a comparison to the two victims or anybody else who handled the knife, the construction worker, the cop. Multiple people must have handled this knife. So it's not clear they're going to get any kind of DNA evidence because soil, if it was buried in soil, soil contains humic acid which deteriorates, it denatures DNA, so they may have nothing, or they may have everything.

We talk about mysteries and puzzles. This is the piece that's missing.

BALDWIN: Murder weapon.

KOBILINSKY: If this turns out to be the murder weapon, wow, the most significant piece of evidence of the last two decades.

BALDWIN: It would be a massive, massive wow.

And with the wow and if it is the weapon, though, O.J. Simpson, double jeopardy, hello?

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL CONTRIBUTOR: Well, you know, double jeopardy is going to prevent his retrial. Also, I wanted to correct, I also didn't write "American Tragedy," that book. There's a chapter relating to my involvement in the trial.

Lawrence Schiller is the author of the book.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: OK. Appreciate...

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Sorry about that.

CALLAN: First of all, I happen to think, having tried a lot of murder cases, that it's virtually impossible to believe they're going to find anything on this knife that would give you a piece of evidence that could be used against O.J., even if he could be retried.

But the doctrine of double jeopardy really is going to prevent any possibility of a retrial. There are some obscure theories that maybe you could come up with some odd charge that wasn't charged initially. But in the real world, that is never going to happen.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Tom Mesereau, do you agree with Paul Callan? Never, never, never?

TOM MESEREAU, ATTORNEY: I do agree with Paul. I do agree with Paul. I must say this.

Even though it's highly unlikely he would ever be tried again, there was a case a number of decades ago in Los Angeles where state prosecutors repeatedly tried to convict someone of murder. They failed. And the U.S. attorney's office in Los Angeles carved out a civil rights violation, charged him criminally and convicted him. So I'm not going to say it's absolutely impossible, but it's highly unlikely.

BALDWIN: OK, and, Tom, let me stay on you, because I'm also thinking about this. I don't know if he was retired at the time or he was off- duty. This officer, right, he was handed this knife from some construction worker allegedly, held on to it for a little too long. Could he eventually get in trouble if it ends up being the knife for withholding evidence?

MESEREAU: Well, that was my first thought. How could a retired LAPD officer who knows all about this case and just how riveted the country was to it and how important the case was for many reasons, good and bad, how can you possibly withhold evidence like this?

I think the answer is, he could. I don't know if they want to bother with it, but I think he very likely could. BALDWIN: Paul, with your involvement in the civil case, you knew the

players and the family members. Yes, maybe knives have been found in the past. But this has to dredge up so much for city of L.A., LAPD, I mean, this splintered the nation in the mid to late '90s.

CALLAN: Well, it did.

BALDWIN: It did.

BALDWIN: They called it the trial of the century. It was the racial aspect of it. Whites were shocked when African-Americans cheered his acquittal.

I happen to think, having been involved in the case personally, the evidence of his guilt was overwhelming. However, he was acquitted by the dream team and now, of course, we have this TV series.

BALDWIN: If anything, gives it a ratings bump, all this news, right?

CALLAN: What a coincidence, that all of a sudden the knife would be found in the middle of the TV series. It sounds like a made-in- Hollywood knife discovery, if you know what I mean.

So I'm very suspicious about it. And I would like to see more evidence here that it's really the knife. And even then, I still think almost impossible to retry O.J.

BALDWIN: You're nodding.

KOBILINSKY: The pathologist, Lakshmanan, looked at the wounds on both Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown. You could see whether the knife is serrated. I think it was serrated. Whether it was single-sided, the blade. Was it one blade or double-edged. There are lots of things you can know just from looking at the murder weapons.

[15:10:10]

CALLAN: But bear in mind, it's the Rockingham estate where O.J. lived, all right, so if O.J.'s DNA is on it, well, it's his house, all right?

She used to visit him there, so he could come up and say well, you know, her DNA might be on it. She cooked for me from time to time when she visited. So the DNA you need to see is Ron Goldman's DNA. That would be the DNA that would really link it back to the murder. So that's what we have to see.

BALDWIN: OK, OK, Larry Kobilinsky and Paul Callan, thank you. Tom Mesereau, thank you very much as well for us in Los Angeles. I appreciate all of that. Again, could be nothing, could be everything.

MESEREAU: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Meantime, politics, major developments here in the race for the White House today. Donald Trump, we have just learned, has decided not to appear at the all-important conservative conference CPAC conference this weekend. We will tell you what his plans do include ahead.

Also, does it all come down to Florida and Ohio? Senator Rubio and Governor Kasich's home states, will these two key battleground states really determine who could ultimately win the nomination for the Republicans?

Also happening right now, Hillary Clinton out and about in Michigan and Detroit. We will talk about what's at stake for her ahead of CNN's big Democratic debate in Flint, Michigan, this Sunday night.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:15:37]

BALDWIN: Welcome back. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Turning to the Republican race for the White House, as the discourse has now hit an all-time low, yes, folks, Donald Trump is going there, as are some of the other candidates. Last night on that debate stage, you see the photo. You know where I'm going there, defending the size of his hands on the debate stage last night, a counterpunch, he says, to correct the record from Marco Rubio, who said he had small hands.

And then today, CNN confirmed Trump is indeed skipping this influential conservative conference, CPAC, happening this weekend. Marco Rubio seizing on Trump's last-minute cancellation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R-FL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He's not a conservative. I mean, Donald Trump basically has policy positions that are indistinguishable from Democrats. He has a long history of supporting abortion rights. He's still a staunch defender of Planned Parenthood. Has a very reckless history when it comes to the Second Amendment. Believes in government-sponsored health care.

You name it, on issue after issue, he thinks he's not going to take sides on Israel, which is distinguishable from the position, probably even worse than the position the president's taken. And so you look at it, he really doesn't belong at conservative rally. Donald Trump is not a conservative.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let's pose those thoughts to Jeff DeWit, Arizona State treasurer, who endorses Trump, and Jenny Beth Martin, president and co-founder of the Tea Party Patriots and chairman of the super PAC that supports Ted Cruz.

Great to have both of you. Welcome.

JEFF DEWIT, ARIZONA STATE TREASURER: Thanks, Brooke.

JENNY BETH MARTIN, CO-FOUNDER, TEA PARTY PATRIOTS: Thank you for having me.

DEWITT: Thanks for having me.

BALDWIN: Jeff, let me just begin with you, as the Trump supporter here. I was reading the Trump statement. He's pulling out of CPAC, he said, listen, hopefully, next year, I will be there as president of the United States.

But, meantime, Marco Rubio is saying, you know what? I'm not surprised. This guy's not a conservative. Your response to that?

JEFF DEWIT, ARIZONA STATE TREASURER: Well, the reason we're pulling out has nothing to do with conservative. It's called Kansas, Kansas, Kansas. And we're planning a very big rally in Wichita, Kansas, and then going on to see over 20,000 people in Florida.

And with the opportunity now to deal a knockout blow to Marco Rubio after his poor performance in the debate and Donald Trump's great performance, we had to adjust and go for it. If we can get this campaign done sooner, and there's certainly blood in the water right now, we want to do it and taking the 40 delegates Kansas has to offer, something we have to do.

CPAC is great. Everybody loves CPAC. And Donald Trump has spoken there before. And he hopes to speak there obviously next year and many times thereafter, but just the way scheduling goes, when you're in the middle of a presidential campaign, these things come up, but we're going to have a wonderful event, event in Wichita, Kansas, and if you're in Kansas, we invite you to join us.

BALDWIN: OK, so Kansas hearing you loud and clear.

But, Jenny Beth, you're there at CPAC. I'm curious if the news has reached the folks who are in attendance and their reaction. Do they care?

MARTIN: I think that there are people who are disappointed. They probably wanted to hear what Donald Trump had to say.

But they're looking forward to hearing the other speakers they have got lined up this afternoon. Ted Cruz will be speaking, Ben Carson, Carly Fiorina. Marco Rubio will be here tomorrow. And they're going to keep listening to these conservative speakers.

The fact of that that is, I spoke earlier this morning and talked about Trump's record and how he is not a Tea Party person. And I pointed out the inconsistencies that he's had on many different issues, from supporting universal health care to wanting to repeal Obamacare, supporting the largest tax increase in history to saying he's for tax cuts now.

He always looks out for what's best for Donald Trump. And that's not what the Tea Party stands for. We want people who look out for our freedom and who want to protect our freedom and Constitution above their own self-interest.

BALDWIN: Let me move off of CPAC for a second and just talk about the debate last night. It's not just Donald Trump. The attacks were fast and furious from both Cruz and Rubio especially. Here are the highlights, nay lowlights from the debate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R-FL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He's trying to con people into giving them their vote just like he conned these people into giving him their money.

You ever heard of Trump Steaks? You ever heard of Trump Vodka?

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, you know what? You know what? Take a look at Trump Steaks.

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If we nominate Donald, we're going to spend the spring, the fall, and the summer with the Republican nominee facing a fraud trial...

[15:20:08]

CRUZ: Breathe, breathe, breathe.

TRUMP: Lying Ted.

CRUZ: You can do it. You can breathe. I know it's hard. I know it's hard. But just...

RUBIO: When they're done with the yoga, can I answer a question?

CRUZ: You cannot.

(LAUGHTER)

RUBIO: Unbelievable.

CRUZ: I really hope that we don't -- we don't see yoga on this stage.

RUBIO: Well, he's very flexible, so you never know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Jeff, Jeff, this is your party. These are the fine gentleman who would like to be the next president of the United States. What is happening here?

DEWIT: Well, first off, we have had so many debates. I don't know what anyone's getting out of all these debates.

And everybody has obviously got all their guns trained on Trump. Everybody is trying to take him down, and yet he emerges every single time in every online poll as the far and away winner and he did once again.

And, quite frankly, I will tell you who came in second place last night, Donald Trump, again, far and away first place. Second place went to Ben Carson for not showing up. He obviously took second place because the other candidates did so poorly in their scripted attacks, which is all they keep doing on Donald Trump. But he obviously looks the most presidential, and then that's why we're pulling away from the pack right now.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Jenny Beth, I know you want to get in and respond to that.

MARTIN: Well, I'm really glad that I was at CPAC and not at home with my 12-year-old twins watching it. Would not have wanted to explain that to my son and daughter.

People in this country are very angry. They're angry at the way Washington works and Washington insiders are constantly making deals that raise the debt, that grow the size of government and that leave us stuck holding the bag.

And they don't give us any regard to how their deals are going to affect us. Donald Trump is definitely tapping into that. The fact is, we need somebody who's not just going to tap into our anger, but who wants to solve the problems, and wants to solve the problems looking at our principles that have always made America great. And that's the Constitution.

And I think Ted Cruz is the alternative to that. And that's what we need to be talking about right now. How are we going to solve the problems? How are we going to bridge this divide so that the people who are angry have faith in America again?

And I understand that anger. Seven years ago, I took to the streets out of anger with my government. I completely understand that anger. And I'm glad that we have someone like Ted Cruz who has consistently, constantly held his promises, kept his promises and stuck to our principles.

BALDWIN: On principle and on substance, I think, Jeff, you bring up a great point about sort of the dearth of substance of these debates. And I think a lot of people would agree with you on substance, specifically when it companies to the U.S. military and on water- boarding. Let me just play some sound. This was Donald Trump speaking earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Throughout the Middle East, they're chopping off heads of Christians, they're chopping off heads of people, anybody who gets in their way. They're drowning 30, 40 people at a time in heavy steel cages.

As far as I'm concerned, water-boarding is absolutely fine, but we should go much further. And I got a standing ovation, standing ovation.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP) BALDWIN: Then he followed up later today. Let me just read the statement. "I will use" -- this is Donald Trump -- quote -- "I will use every legal power that I have to stop these terrorist enemies. I do, however, understand, that the United States is bound by laws and treaties and I will not order our military or other officials to violate those laws and will seek their advice on such matters. I will not order a military officer to disobey the law. It is clear that, as president, I will be bound by laws, just like all Americans, and I will meet those responsibilities."

I mean, cue the critics, Jeff, already saying con man, flip-flop, mixed messages here. How do you respond to that?

DEWIT: I think the main thing to look at, when you look at -- if you want to call someone a con man, look at these first-term senators that have done nothing, nothing in their lives except be longtime politicians and lawyers.

BALDWIN: But don't put it on the senators.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Stay on Donald Trump and what he said about water-boarding.

DEWIT: OK.

Donald Trump is the only one to solve problems ever. He's one of the most successful businesspeople of all time. If you want to talk about water-boarding, I think we're just -- we're looking at a very frustrated public that is sick of us sending our very brave men and women into harm's way and tying their hands behind their back. So we're sending them into some of the worst areas of the world...

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: But he clearly has changed his mind. He's gone from one extreme to the other.

DEWIT: Well, again, you wanted the comment moderated. He came out, he was very specific in exactly what he meant by the comment. I think the statement he read summed it up perfectly.

I think that puts it to bed and it shows, again, Mr. Trump is the strongest on the military, just like he's the strongest on the economy and on immigration and on jobs. So it sums it up perfectly as to why everybody is getting on board with Trump.

BALDWIN: Jenny Beth, you get the last word, 30 seconds.

MARTIN: Obeying the law and the Constitution should not be an afterthought.

[15:25:00]

When you're sending men and women into harm's way, Obeying the Constitution should be at the top of your mind. They're there to defend our Constitution. And we need a president who does that and does it first above all else.

BALDWIN: Jenny Beth Martin, Jeff DeWit, thank you, both of you.

DEWIT: Thank you, Brooke.

MARTIN: Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Thank you.

Coming up next, from Republicans to Democrats. Hillary Clinton, here she is, live pictures, speaking in Detroit, Michigan. We will talk about what is stake ahead of the big CNN Democratic debate in Flint, Michigan, this upcoming Sunday night.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Just in to CNN, the mayor of Flint, Michigan, just announcing the city has kicked off a $55 million program to replace lead-contaminated pipes in the city's water system.