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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Senator Bernie Sanders Sweeps Western State Caucuses Over Weekend; Donald Trump Threatening Lawsuit in Latest Battle with Ted Cruz Over Delegates from Louisiana's Primary. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired March 28, 2016 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:30:02] DAVID GERGEN, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL ADVISER TO REAGAN, FORD, CLINTON & NIXON: We didn't want to see bombs proliferated and we wanted to have add them for peace. So I think the fundamental problem here, poppy is. That he is spouting off about foreign policy, making statements at wildly inconsistent with past U.S. foreign policy without really justifying, without showing that he thought it through. That he's carefully thought these things out.

And I think that is extremely -- it can be destabilizing. You know, when people began to think that there is chaos, is coming in Russia, is coming in the Middle East and now maybe in Europe which is been destabilized by all the (inaudible) and everything else.

And now the United States becomes unreliable leader. That's going to have a very destabilized in effect on the world. It was not -- we do have to take in to account when the economists, you know, about a week ago came out and had a list of the top ten threat faced by the world, if Donald Trump won the nomination they thought that would be in the top ten it is concerning.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Right, M.J. Lee, David Gergen appreciate the discussion. Thank you both very much.

GERGEN: Thank you.

HARLOW: Ahead Donald Trump, Ted Cruz, John Kasich facing off with voters. Taking voters' question Wednesday night in a Wisconsin town hall, tomorrow night, I should say. Don't missed the CNN town hall moderated by Anderson Cooper, 8:00 p.m. eastern only right here on CNN.

Up next, as Bernie Sanders sweeping all three states up for grabs this weekend. How worried should Hillary Clinton be? Yes, the delegate math is still in her favor by a lot but momentum means something too. We'll debate next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:35:57] HARLOW: Senator Bernie Sanders may be feeling the political wind in his back after sweeping the western state caucuses this weekend. He took Washington State, Alaska and Hawaii by huge margins. This is no question the momentum win but is it a serious blow to Hillary Clinton who still has large, large lead in the delegates and not to mention the huge lead among superdelegates. Sanders told our Jake Tapper when it comes to those superdelegates he can turn it around.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think the momentum is with us. A lot of these superdelegates may rethink their position with Secretary Clinton. A lot of them have not yet declared and then you got superdelegates who are in states where we win by 40 or 50 points. I think their own constituents are going to say to them, hey, why don't you support the people of our state? Vote for Sanders.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Let's talk to our CNN Political Analyst, John Avlon a New York Times Columnist Charles Blow, Thank you gentlemen for being here. And John let me begin with you. I'm interested in your take. Is this a case of improbable but not impossible for Sanders? And the reality of a path to that magic delegate number 2,388 for Sanders. What is it, John?

JOHN AVLON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I think that's fair in probably. But not impossible. Nothing impossible there's no question he has the activist base of the Democratic Party firmly in his camp. He's pulled out some really impressive wins this past week, in particular in Washington State where the Clinton campaign had been competing.

And it really was a blowout. But the underlying math remains daunting. The underlying dynamics daunting even outside of the superdelegates and then there's the question of polls and what they say about who would be a competitive general election nominee. So, you know, Sanders camp has very little reason to give up the ghost. They've got money. They've got momentum but Hillary Clinton is still in pole position.

HARLOW: Charles, when it comes to these western states, yes huge margin, yes, caucus, you've only got five of those left. Yet, white, largely rural voters. So when you take a state like Wisconsin and the importance of Wisconsin where's your money on whether or not Sanders can pull off a Michigan-type surprise in Wisconsin?

CHARLES BLOW, NEW YORK TIMES COLUMNIST: Well, of course, the rest of the state including Wisconsin, if you included of west are -- where I think he has the most interesting possibilities, right. If he can do something like he did in Michigan, in Wisconsin. That's actually big. He was not able to transfer for that kind of win in Michigan to Ohio.

HARLOW: Right.

BLOW: However, which really kind of threw up a road block, because that maybe that was a bit of a fluke. But you are right about pointing out the idea that those are western states but also caucuses. There are two things that are happening on a Democratic side that I find abhorrent. One is that superdelegates are allowed to endorse before votes are cast. That is undemocratic. It tells the people who are about to vote that this is where the establishment wants -- who the establishment supports. I don't agree with that. I also don't think that caucuses are particularly Democratic, particularly for people who work, you know, off hours, who don't have an hour and a half, two hours, three hours to stay in a caucus place. You know, it's not -- it takes away anonymity of voting, which a lot of us prize. You know, it adds peer pressure into the voting process. All of these things that do not speak to the most Democratic way that you could process also. So, one part it helps Sanders the causing part. One part of it helps Clinton which is that the superdelegates have already tipped their hat.

HARLOW: It's interesting Charles because I had some among Sanders on my show last night and I was asking her sort of, do you feel like your candidate who run this whole sort of populous campaign now have to sort of kowtow to the party establishment -- like go after the superdelegates now and all of this. And do you see anything unfair in that? And she said nothing about wanting to change the system et cetera. She said, don't worry. We'll get them. We'll turn them around, John. What's your take on what Charles said?

[12:40:01] AVLON: Well, I think Charles makes a good point. I mean one of the largest dynamics under hurting (ph) and divide in both parties, is that the parties are more polarized than the American people, and you don't necessarily get representative results particularly when you've got caucuses or closed partisan primaries, which is in many cases.

I mean, the most representative sample set for primary would be open primaries in which the maxim number of people could vote by secret ballot at times that are more convenient than sitting all day at a caucus. And those are changes, those are larger election reforms we need to deal with as a nation right now. But these primaries, the trying to sale as might say. So, we've got to deal with the system as it is. And it's funny when people find that they are benefiting from a certain process they magically have no problem with it. Where you stand is often a matter of where you sit.

BLOW: Can I add one thing to that?

HARLOW: Yeah.

BLOW: Sanders is starting to make a very interesting argument which is that the superdelegates should shift to him, even if he does not have the majority of the votes of the pledged delegates and even if he does not have the majority of the votes that because he polls well, that super delegates should shift over to his side because polls suggest that he is doing better as a general election candidate that's a very, very dangerous and strange argument for any candidate to make.

HARLOW: But it's interesting because it sort of akin to on the other side of what Donald Trump is saying, if I have plurality but I don't have 1237 then I should be get him. You know, what I can tell you, this is going to make a very fun and interesting convention. A very good television that you'll both be with us for John Avlon, Charles Blow, thank you very much.

AVLON: Hopefully good election. BLOW: Thank you.

HARLOW: Again a good election. The most important thing of course. Thank you.

Coming up next, back to the Republican side another Donald Trump, Ted Cruz battle. This one not over their wives, this one over those rules in Louisiana primarily results. Trump now threatening to sue Cruz. Why? We'll explain next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:46:01] HARLOW: Donald Trump is threatening a lawsuit, his latest battle with Ted Cruz over the delegates from Louisiana's March 5th primary.

Trump tweeted this last night, "Just to show how unfair Republican primary politics can be. I won the State of Louisiana and get less delegates than Cruz, lawsuit coming.

Cruz's campaign spokesman Ron Nehring, tweeting "Maybe your time is better spent reading the rules than hate tweets.

Trump did beat Cruz by 3.6 percent in the vote in Louisiana. But under Republican Party rules they each won 18 delegates and now Cruz's campaign is trying to sway 10 more towards his camp. This is according to the Wall Street Journal. Those 10, half of them would come from Marco Rubio. And half of them would come from unpledged delegates.

Let's get the legal view with CNN Legal Analyst and Defense Attorney, Joey Jackson and CNN Legal Analyst and Criminal Defense Attorney, Paul Callan.

So two of you both, let me begin with you, Joey. On what grounds would Trump sue? Because Nehring is saying the rules are rules.

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it depends who you asked. The rules are the rules unless they disenfranchise voters and don't recognize the popular will and then of course you have rules. But if those rules are unfair, can we just claim the rules are the rules, it's an internal dispute, it's our party, we do what we want.

HARLOW: Right.

JACKSON: The fact is, is that, if you're suppressing the popular will of the people and the popular will, you know, this to me is larger than Trump. It's larger than that.

HARLOW: ... taking the Rubio vote delegates for example. How is that suppressing, how is that doing anything to the will of the people who voted for Rubio?

JACKSON: Because the delegates should have a choice. And to your point you could clearly say that while the delegates were for Rubio. Rubio is not here. So why not then proportionately designate those delegates proportionately to who got the vote to Trump and Cruz. And so to me it's larger than Trump. It's about what the people want and could a candidate who didn't win by popular vote now just take five delegates from Rubio. And by the way, these five are undecided. I'll take your five too. I think it has to be more expansive than more well thought out than that, the rules have to be fair to everyone.

HARLOW: So a lawsuit has to come. We'll see if that happens. Because Paul as you know, Trump has threatened a lot of lawsuits in this election so far. What's the likelihood if he does file one which wouldn't be directly against Cruz per se, it could be against the process, would he prevail?

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I think it's unlikely that he would prevail. And Trump is a lawsuit threat machine. He's constantly threatening to sue the press, to sue, you know, political parties. And then his own business history, you know, I've looked back at it. He's used lawsuits a lot as an intimidation thing to help him in negotiations. The threat of the lawsuit here may help him in Louisiana because party leaders may take a second look at this process and they could decide to reallocate in accordance with what he is saying. In other words, it should, that's clearly reflect the popular will with Rubio having dropped out.

But I think in the end, the courts don't like to get involved in this because this is a political party. Remember, political parties are essentially private organizations, picking candidates to run through office and it's going to be a really serious offense for a court to say we're going to get in and tell the Republicans how to run their party.

HARLOW: Right.

CALLAN: So my prediction is it's going to be a big threat. You'll never see a lawsuit that gets won in court.

HARLOW: We'll be watching. Joey Jackson ...

JACKSON: Big event Trump, voted disenfranchisement. Can you do it? And if you can't the court should step in and say something about it.

HARLOW: We'll watch, thank you, we'll see if a lawsuit comes first and for most ...

JACKSON: OK, thank you.

HARLOW: Paul Callan, Joey Jackson, thank you very much.

Up next, we're stay on the legal view and talk about this. It's big development today. Georgia's governor vetoing a highly controversial bill that would have allowed businesses to deny services to LGBT customers.

Did the governor bend the pressure from big businesses? He says, no.

[12:49:45] Reality check, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: This morning Georgia's Governor, Nathan Deal announced he will veto a bill that would have given face these organizations the option to deny services and jobs to the LGBT community. At news conference this morning, here's how he addressed it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NATHAN DEAL, GOVERNOR, (R) GEORGIA: Georgia is a welcoming state. It is full of loving, kind and generous people. And that is what we should want. They choose to worship God in the way they see fit in a myriad of ways and a variety of different cities.

I believe that that is our best side. And our people every day work side by side without regard to the color of their skin, of their fellow mate or the religion that their co-worker might adhere to. They are simply trying to make life better for themselves, their families, and their communities. That is the character of Georgia.

[12:55:09] I intend to do my part to keep it that way. For that reason, I will veto House Bill 757.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: CNN Legal Analyst, Paul Callan is back with me and also with CNN Senior Media Correspondent, Brian Stelter, also host of Reliable Sources.

Brian, it was interesting to hear Deal say, this is not anything to do with big business, threatening to pull out, which a lot of them did. This is about sound judgment, this about where we should fall what is right.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: So there no doubt, there was a tremendous amount of corporate pressure and you can see just some of the companies including TimeWarner, CNN's parent that had came out against this bill. Some more strongly than other, Disney, for example, you see on screen their logo, actually said they would pull all movie production out of the State of Georgia. And that was a big deal because movies like Captain America, Civil War, Guardians of the Galaxy, other movies have been filmed by Disney in Georgia, and the possibility that those would no longer be produced in the state.

Now, also well, The Walking Dead on AMC is produced there. Lots of other programing, and we saw many media companies virtually every major media company take a stand against those bill. Also other big corporations like Salesforce. So you did interview the CEO, Marc Benioff, who would come up very early against this bill.

And today he is tweeting thanks to Governor Deal, saying thank you to everyone who made today possible, a day of equality for all.

HARLOW: You know, it's interesting because Georgia had recently been getting so many big deals Caterpillar building a huge plant there recently, they become right to work states so not unionized, so there's been a big business push. So I there recently was a threat by all of these businesses to pull out.

STELTER: And it seemed to come to ahead last week after the human rights campaign urged Hollywood and other companies to take a stand.

HARLOW: So let's read what the human rights campaign said, they came out with a statement, the recent part. 'Thankfully, Governor Deal listened to the voices of Georgians. Civil rights organizations, as well as the many leaders in the entertainment industry and in the private sector who strongly condemned this deplorable attack on the fundamental civil rights of LGBT people. We hope North Carolina's governor general assembly are paying close attention to what has transpired in Georgia, and they undo their disgraceful attack on LGBT people in the state's upcoming legislative session.

So what is that about to you Paul that is about the fact that North Carolina has now passed a law that transgender individuals cannot use a bathroom that is the sex they identify with. They have to use the sex they were physically born with. And it stops state officials from passing anti-discrimination ordinances. They fill you a number of plaintiffs have come forward fighting this, on what ground can they make the argument?

CALLAN: Well I think they'll make a strong grounds argument on constitutional grounds. You know, in the United States traditionally, gender discrimination has been ruled to be illegal under the U.S. Constitution and a lot of other statutes.

The construct of gender has changed though. And a lot of people we're not talking about by the way gay people and straight people here. I want to make this clear because a lot of people mix up transgender with that issue. This is an issue about people self identifying as a different gender. You're a man but you self identify as a woman. And maybe you haven't even had surgery to change your anatomy.

So should that man identifying as a woman be allowed to go in and use a woman's room. Now, this race is haggles in a lot of places among ordinary people because women say, will am I going to be in danger in the lady's room if a man masquerading as a transgender uses the facility?

So I think ordinary people have a lot fears about it. But I think in the end the courts in looking at this are going to say if your gender is female and if there's scientific support for yourself identifying as a female you have a right to use female facilities.

HARLOW: So what's interesting, Brian, big business hasn't come out on this one.

STELTER: No, it's relatively quiet. And perhaps that's because this bill seemed to sneak up. In a way that Georgia Bill did not. It was signed in the law rather quickly by the governor that there wasn't this long waiting period in the case of Georgia or the governor waited more than a several days in order to take action.

HARLOW: Right, right. And Paul, let's talk about precedents here, any other states that have sort of tackle this, is there any precedence in this or there's something you see going to up to the highest court?

CALLAN: I see it going to the highest court. There is precedent in the federal courts, there seems to be a move now in favor of transgender people and the LGBT community saying that their rights should be preserved under the constitution. But it's never been resolved by the Supreme Court and you do have this issue of, and I hate to get in to the weeds on this. But how do you know that the person entering the restroom is a male or a female?

HARLOW: It's true and has been physical change been made, yet are not into that matter?

STELTER: And appears maybe overstated, but they maybe fierce nonetheless.

CALLAN: ... I mean, do you force LGBT people to carry identification cards. I don't think you want to do that.

HARLOW: Right, Paul Callan, we'll be watching where it goes in the legal system, Brian Stelter, from the business angle, thank you so much. Thank you all for being with us.

[13:00:07] Ashleigh is back tomorrow. Wolf begins now.