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Trump Talks "America First" Foreign Policy; Wisconsin Primary Winners Could Shake Up Presidential Race. Aired 1:30-2p ET

Aired March 28, 2016 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:30:00] WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Why should the U.S. be financially, politically, militarily so obligated to protect those countries when theoretically they could do it by themselves?

BOBBY GHOSH, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: You ignore the history of the region and it ignores the history of the Second World War and it ignores every American foreign policy principle in the Pacific area for the past six decades. It's not so much a principle as a something that seems to have popped in to Donald Trump's mind. I wish that "The New York Times" were able to push him harder on those points and ask specific questions. If it is OK for South Korea and Japan to have nuclears, then who else, who's allowed to have them and who's not, and why we should trust some countries and not other countries? They didn't push him on those things. We really haven't heard anything that sounds like a foreign policy philosophy or a world view. It doesn't seem considered. It seems knee jerk and a response to a question suddenly thrown at him.

BLITZER: I want you to listen, General Hertling, to Donald Trump on a radio interview earlier today. Listen to what he said about NATO.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE & CEO, TRUMP ORGANIZATION (voice-over): There's no one emphasis on terror with NATO. And frankly, if there is, you need different countries because it involves different countries. NATO is very obsolete.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: "NATO is very obsolete." He's angry because our NATO allies don't chip in percentage-wise of their GDP for defense expenditures what the U.S. chips in. Also, they have not gotten involved directly as an organization in trying to destroy ISIS.

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: I'm not sure either of those statements are true, Wolf. First of all, we are talking about the fighting of ISIS and other terrorist organizations. As part of the international security force in Afghanistan, NATO chipped in about a third of the forces, over --

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: In Afghanistan, they are involved but they are not involved in the war against ISIS in Iraq and Syria as an organization. HERTLING: As an organization you are right. But various countries

are --

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: Individual countries may contribute, but as an organization headquartered in Belgium, the secretary-general of NATO, they have not gotten their act together to do what they did to the Taliban in Afghanistan.

HERTLING: That's absolutely true.

BLITZER: That frustrates Trump. Is he wrong?

HERTLING: He's wrong. Those individual countries that are contributing to the fight have come to the agreement that they will. There are multiple countries that are. We fought with many countries in the European land mass. And I spent the last 12 years of my career in Afghanistan, Europe, Iraq, and they are side by side with our forces. And they are doing other things, like cutting the financial network, improving cybersecurity, going against the flow of refugees. And combined with them, the United States and our NATO allies and other allies in Europe are contributing to the fight.

BLITZER: Is he wrong when he says, Bobby, that NATO is obsolete right now? He says if they are so worried about Ukraine and Russia moves into Ukraine, let the Germans take care of it, let other NATO allies take care of it. The U.S. is financially strapped and the U.S. can't afford to do it. Let the Europeans take care of it?

GHOSH: Well, he is in some ways reflecting the frustration the White House feels, as well. You remember President Obama's interview to "The Atlantic" a couple of weeks ago where he talks about free riders. The president is also frustrated at certain European countries that seem to be comfortable letting the U.S. carry all of the heavy weight. There's a way to have this conversation about responsibility and countries taking on a bigger share without it being so -- using language that is much more likely to bring them in rather than push them out. For a man who claims he knows how to make a deal, this seems to be the opposite of how you go into a deal. This seems designed to antagonize everybody before a conversation takes place. Yes, there's a case to be made that certain countries in Europe ought to be taking a bigger role, but that is not the way you have that conversation.

[13:34:15] BLITZER: You are right. That Jeffrey Goldberg (ph) article in "The Atlantic," if you read it, there are similarities between Donald Trump and President Obama's world view. Very significant differences as the same time, but you are right, there were some strange similarities at the same time.

Guys, thank you very much.

Coming up, the Wisconsin primary just a week away from tomorrow, making the state the next big battleground for the remaining Republican presidential candidates. Why the winner there could shake up the race. We'll discuss.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Presidential politics right now. Wisconsin is the next major stop on the road to the White House. Candidates in both parties are setting their sights on Wisconsin ahead of next Tuesday's primary. For the Republicans, 42 delegates are up for grabs. For the Democrats, 86 delegates are at stake.

Our correspondent, Phil Mattingly, is joining us West Salem, Wisconsin, where Ohio Governor John Kasich is campaigning this hour. Our senior Washington correspondent, Jeff Zeleny, is in Madison, Wisconsin, where Hillary Clinton holds an event later today.

Phil, John Kasich trying to get in the spotlight, but Donald Trump is making headlines, as we reported, on foreign policy. Tell us about what is called the Trump Doctrine right now out on the campaign trail.

[13:39:49] PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Really illuminating couple of days for anyone trying to get a sense of what Donald Trump's foreign policy is it. It appears to be domestic trumps all else -- no pun intended. Whether that means undercutting strategic alliances, undercutting treaties, historical allies are all in play if it Benefits the United States. Wolf, this is something that has already garnered criticism from his opponents. Ted Cruz going after him, stressing this shows some form of naivete, including the possibility of allowing Japan and South Korea to become nuclear and the U.S. backing off a bit.

One of the most interesting things we have seen, over the course of the campaign, a lot of criticism about not going into detail. Now he has gone into detail and Ted Cruz and John Kasich feel there is fertile ground to attack on the details and policies.

BLITZER: I'm sure they will.

And, Jeff, on the Democratic side, Secretary Clinton is on the campaign trail in the coming hours. Bernie Sanders said he has the momentum after he crushed her in three-state sweep over the weekend in Alaska, Hawaii and Washington State. What's the state of the Democratic race right now?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: No question, Bernie Sanders has energy from the weekend wins, but Secretary Clinton has a big lead in math. She is leading by at least 237 pledged delegates. But Wisconsin will be the central battleground. Wisconsin over the next week will be the place where it determines if Bernie Sanders will be able to make an argument going forward in to the month of April. Wolf, remember the rallies he held in Wisconsin, across the country last summer? His first was here in Madison, 10,000 people or so. He is hoping that energy will propel him. He's also trying to urge the Clinton campaign to start debating. He is calling for one more debate next month. The Clinton campaign says Senator Sanders will not dictate our schedule here. But that is the thing the Clinton campaign will have to decide, if they will accept the debate and compete with them as they keep one eye on Republicans. I got off a call a few moments ago with a top strategist on the Sanders campaign and they believe they have blocked the Clinton campaign from winning a majority of pledged delegates. They believe she could only hit the requirement by super delegates. The math is difficult for them. It is an uphill battle for Sanders, but they are in it until the end, they pledge. So this is still a dog fight. The next week or so in Wisconsin fight and how aggressive it will be -- Wolf?

BLITZER: It will be fascinating to see what happens in Wisconsin next Tuesday.

Guys, thank you.

An important to note to our viewers. Tomorrow night, CNN hosts a Republican town hall in Wisconsin. Donald Trump, Ted Cruz and John Kasich will be there. They will answer questions from voters in Wisconsin. It will be moderated by Anderson Cooper. Tomorrow night, at 8:00 p.m. eastern. It all starts right here on CNN.

Up next, CNN Donald Trump threatening to file a new lawsuit, this time over the Republican primary results in Louisiana. We have details on that and a lot more. Stick around.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:47:00] BLITZER: The presidential candidates are all battling for delegates heading in to next week's Wisconsin primary. That's a week from tomorrow. Two candidates are trying to regain delegates from their competitors at the same time.

Let's talk about all of this. Joining us Michael Eric Dyson, an academic and author, and his latest book is titled "The Black Presidency, Barack Obama and the Politics of Race in America" now on its fourth or fifth printing already. And also joining us, CNN political commentator, Jeffrey Lord, and former Reagan White House political director and Donald Trump supporter; and CNN political commentator, Matt Lewis, is with us, a conservative writer, senior contributor for "The Daily Caller.

Guys, to all of you, thank you for joining us.

What do you think about this effort that Bernie Sanders is now doing to try to win over -- she's more than 400 super delegates and he has 27, or 30 maybe, and one of the spokesmen said maybe 35. But is that doable? She has such an enormous lead over him in delegates based on the super delegates.

MICHAEL ERIC DYSON, AUTHOR: I don't think it is realistic although I understand why Senator Sanders is going after those votes because they are flexible. People can change their minds once they get to the convention or any other point along the way. But I think Hillary Clinton has -- her ground game has been sophisticated and her wooing of pledge to her is pretty ironclad. So in that sense, it spells bad news for Senator Sanders.

BLITZER: On the Trump side, Jeffrey -- and you are a supporter of Donald Trump -- he is crying foul over Louisiana. He won by 3 percentage points but Ted Cruz may get more delegates out of Louisiana. Trump tweeted this, "To show how fair Republican politics can be, I won Louisiana and get less delegates than Cruz. Lawsuit coming." Didn't he understand his team basically screwed up by not going through the process? Apparently, the Cruz camp as a better legal team out there to get the Rubio supporters and get some of those uncommitted delegates to come to their side.

JEFFREY LORD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You know, Wolf, when you go back in the history of Republican conventions, this is kind of arcane is found everywhere. There are plenty of disputes in convention history over delegates. How they were elected, who they really belong to, whether they represent candidate A, B or C. The Taft Eisenhower race was a case in point in 1952. So this doesn't surprise me in the sense that this is trending right along, hard here. The question is what can be done about it. And we'll have to wait and see.

BLITZER: I've seen a lot of tweets out there, Matt, you probably have as well, saying if he sues anybody he should sue his own legal team for not coming up, stepping up to the plate, realizing their may be 10 delegates up for grabs out of Louisiana.

[13:49:50] MATT LEWIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I just wonder who will tell him about the Electoral College, because he could be in for a shock --

(LAUGHTER)

-- if he realizes the popular vote doesn't win an election.

This is something -- if you were paying attention the last couple of cycles -- and Barack Obama did a really good job. He did this to Hillary Clinton on a couple of occasions where she would win states but he outmaneuvered her on the ground. If you're going to run a serious presidential campaign, you have to know how to do these things. That's what Ted Cruz has been -- say what you will about Ted Cruz, but his team has been good about this sort of operation.

BLITZER: He's got a very good ground game, legal team, all of that.

Let me let Jeffrey weigh in.

You agree that the Cruz campaign on the ground, very strong?

LORD: Yes, yes. I think they've done a remarkable job.

I mean, let's go back to Senator Cruz's first election as Senator from Texas. He pulled off quite a feat against an establishment Republican candidate who was not only the sitting lieutenant governor, he was basically wealthy himself. And in spite of all of that, Ted Cruz managed to pull an upset. You can only do that with a good organized ground game, so I think he's good at this.

BLITZER: Yet, Trump sort of -- he relies on himself, by all accounts. He's got advisers, he's got teams, but so many of the decisions really come from Donald Trump. DYSON: Yes, that's the virtue and also the vice of being the head man

in charge. If you don't have insight about the electoral process, the jibe, launched by our good friend here about the Electoral College, a case in point. You have to be sophisticated about how to gain those votes and how to go out there and shake the trees, so to speak, to make sure everything falls in your direction.

BLITZER: It gets pretty complicated in terms of assembling delegates.

All right, guys, stand by for a moment.

Much more with our panel coming up on the state of the presidential race right now.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:55:45] BLITZER: We're back with our panel. We're talking about the state of the presidential race. Once again with us, the academic and author, Michael Eric Dyson; our CNN political commentators, Jeffrey Lord and Matt Lewis.

Matt, listen to Donald Trump raise some eyebrows when asked if people are really safe in Europe right now. Listen

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE & CEO, TRUMP ORGANIZATION (voice-over): I don't think America's a safe place for Americans if you want to know the truth. We're allowing thousands of people to come in here. Nobody knows we're they're from. Nowhere knows who they are. They're coming in here by the thousands. Let me tell you something, we're going to have problems -- just as big or bigger than they've got.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Now, academics and pundits, they can criticize him for his views, but rank-and-file Republicans, they seem to like that kind of talk. That potentially could help him in the upcoming contests, including a week from tomorrow in Wisconsin.

LEWIS: Absolutely. In fact, I have a theory that any time something bad happens in America or internationally, it actually helps Trump. He is a candidate that I think thrives on fear and anger and frustration. Sometimes there are things to be afraid of. We can agree on that. I think if you're afraid, whether it's economic instability or whether it's global terrorism, Donald Trump is feeding that. And you know, I think it certainly resonated.

BLITZER: I think he makes a good point.

But after an attack like Paris or Brussels, someone like Donald Trumps, who has spoken about that fear, that company resonate, especially among Republicans going out to the polls next week. DYSON: Well, he has already said that he specializes in appealing to

those who don't have the highest levels of formal education, though still intelligent people. The problem is that he may not be as well informed and the people that he appeals to may not be as well informed about the broader geopolitics of the situation and, as a result of that, that appeal to paranoia and fear ends up looking like xenophobia and looks like demonization of particular populations as oppose to a sophisticated engagement with the politics at hand.

BLITZER: I assume, Jeffrey, you read that long "New York times" article about Trump's global view. He spent 100 minutes talking to the reporters at "The New York Times." And they also put on their website the actual transcript of those two phone conversations. Was there anything in there you disagreed with?

LORD: You know, I do think he's -- there's two things that I think are intertwined. Let me use the NATO example, where he says our friends in NATO should bear a larger share of the costs, which is -- as a matter of fact, I think was a point made by President Bush 43 and Secretary Rumsfeld in the past. But Donald Trump is keeping his eye on the ball here, of our deficit, our debt, rather, that we're almost $20 trillion in debt. Somewhere along the line, you have to start paring this back or we are going to have serious problems in the country. And funding NATO will be the least of them. So everywhere that you can scrimp and save and get others to pick up the slack -- I think the NATO example is just one -- and I think you'll start to see more of them.

BLITZER: What do you think, Matt?

LEWIS: Look, he laid out in that interview with "The New York Times" a dramatically different world view than we've had, a completely different paradigm than the post-World War II era. So really, what Donald Trump was doing --

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: -- openly suggesting maybe it's time for Japan and South Korea to get their own nuclear arsenals to deal with the North Korea nuclear threat.

LEWIS: It is astounding, if you think about it, and it defies what we've had in the last 50 years. It's sort of a paleo-conservative view. It hearkens back to a pre-World War II type of Republicanism.

DYSON: But the problem there is we're living in a post-World War II world. As a result of that, to engage these other powers with the kind of "America First" ideology is not simply an appeal to an anachronistically conception of isolationism. It's just plain old scary. Because you don't know all the players involved and what they're likely to do and what powers they should be, that they should have in the light of where America is right now.

BLITZER: This notion sort of jumped out at me that "If the Saudis don't step up to the plate and start sending troops to fight ISIS, maybe the U.S. should stop buying Saudi oil." All right, guys, we have to leave it there. A lot to assess.

Appreciate it very much.

I'll be back 5:00 p.m. eastern, in "The Situation Room."

For our international viewers, "Amanpour" is coming up next.

For our viewers in North America, NEWSROOM with Brooke Baldwin starts right now.