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Who is Donald Trump?; Wisconsin Primary. Aired 15-15:30p ET

Aired April 01, 2016 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:01]

BILL WEIR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Because, if we lose that source, what are the 40 million people going to do in that desert? These are things that don't get talked about enough on the campaign trail, so, hopefully Sunday night, a little fresh perspective on the glorious American West.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Very important issue. Learned a lot just from talking to you, Bill Weir.

Look forward to learning more when we watch "THE WONDER LIST" this Sunday night 10:00 Eastern and Pacific only on CNN.

Top of the hour now on this Friday. I'm Pamela Brown, in today for Brooke Baldwin.

Let's get to it. Wisconsin is the next big primary for both Democrats and Republicans. Voters there go to the polls on Tuesday. But on the GOP side, front-runner Donald Trump is also focusing his attention on the party's convention in July and how the delegate process will play out. A GOP source tells CNN walking Trump and his aides through the process was the main focus of their meeting with RNC chief Reince Priebus in Washington.

And it's even more of a possibility given the possibility of a contested convention. As for that meeting with the RNC, Trump describes it this way.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We met with Reince Priebus and the staff and they're very good people, very -- actually a terrific meeting, I think.

And it's really a unity meeting. We're leading by a lot. We have far and away the most delegates, millions and millions of votes more than anybody else, than Ted has or, you know, than Kasich has. We really -- I think they wanted to really discuss, you know, unity and I like discussing unity too.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Right now, Trump leads his rivals with 739 pledged delegates to date, as we see right here. But to win the nomination, he needs to hit that magic number of 1,237 before the convention. A new poll shows Ted Cruz with a 10-point advantage over Trump in

Wisconsin, the second poll this week that shows Cruz with a double- digit lead.

Let's talk about all this with Timothy Naftali, a former director of the Nixon Presidential Library and the author of "George H.W. Bush: The American President" series. Also joining us, Dana Bash, CNN's chief political correspondent, and Genevieve Wood, a former RNC spokeswoman and senior contributor to The Daily Signal.

Tim, first to you here. We just spoke to Randy Evans in the last hour, who's on the Republican National Committee. He was saying if Trump does not win Wisconsin, he's going to have a very hard time, if not impossible, to reach that magic number. Clearly, Trump's campaign is focused on the delegate math. Is this something, though, his campaign should have been focusing on well before now?

TIM NAFTALI, FORMER DIRECTOR, NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY: Well, if you think about the strategy as we understand it of the Trump campaign, it was a shock and awe strategy. They did not build the kind of grassroots organization that traditional Republican candidates or Democratic candidates for that matter would have created.

They're in a situation now where they have to have -- they have to fight for delegate by delegate. And what's going to be very interesting, to see what kind of retail politics they can actually run. The Republican Party doesn't have the number of superdelegates the way the Democrats do. In fact, they don't even call them superdelegates. There are some uncommitted delegates.

There are some delegates who can turn, can change their voting pattern. In fact, it's hard to enforce it. There are many of the states -- all of the states require you to vote the way the primary went. But you could actually decide not to vote the way you're supposed to.

So the issue is make sure you key the delegates that you have won and you add to them. It looks like Trump will -- if the current trends continue, it's not winner take all in Wisconsin, but it's winner take most.

And it looks as if Trump will be lucky to win six delegates, because he might win two of the congressional delegates -- congressional districts in Wisconsin, which will mean the balance would go to Ted Cruz with only a few to Kasich. Trump would have to win an enormous number in New York and an enormous number in California to have any hope of getting over the magic number.

Most people are saying he's not going to reach it. So then the issue is, can you pick up the 100 to 150 delegates you will need to reach that magic number in Cleveland? And he needs to be able to engage in retail politics for that. Does he have the organization? We don't know.

BROWN: A lot of dynamics at play there.

Dana, what have you learned from your sources about what happened at that RNC meeting yesterday?

DANA BASH, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, that it was a lot of educating. You know, Donald Trump has never done this before. I mean, most people running for president haven't done it before.

But he's never been a politician. And so a big part of the discussion, most of the discussion, I'm told, was walking him through what Tim just talked about, that the delegates process isn't just about winning these states, that there is a whole second layer that is equally, maybe more important about dealing with these various states and the different ways that they assign their delegates, and making sure that the Trump campaign, the apparatus is on the ground in those places working and lobbying the delegates, and then, you know, kind of going forward, continuing to do that.

[15:05:20]

The other thing that I am told is you remember, a couple of days ago at the CNN town hall, Donald Trump really kind of trashed the Republican Party, saying, you know, that they're not treating me fairly. I'm told that Reince Priebus, the RNC chair, who did meet with Trump said basically something along the lines of, you know, it's not helpful when you do that in public, for lots reasons, but, primarily, because when that happens, activists and donors, they call the RNC saying, what's going on?

And what Priebus said to Trump, I'm told, you know, is if you are the nominee, you're going to need us to be in a good position as a party because we're going to be here to help you, so like cut it out. I'm told Trump said, OK, OK, I get it. I get it.

BROWN: Hence his tweet after, talking about unity.

BASH: Exactly.

BROWN: Dana Bash, really interesting scoop on that meeting.

Genevieve, to you now. "The New York Times" is reporting that Republicans who -- this is a quote, by the way. "Republicans who once worried that Mr. Trump might gain overwhelming momentum in the primaries are now becoming preoccupied with a different grim prospect, that Mr. Trump might become a kind of zombie candidate damaged beyond the point of repair, but too late for any of his rivals to stop him."

Is that fair, Genevieve? Is that a fair, you know, perspective to have on Donald Trump?

GENEVIEVE WOOD, THE DAILY SIGNAL: It's probably one "The New York Times" would like Republicans to have.

Look, I think Donald Trump had a tough week this past week. I think in his most honest moment, he'd probably admit that too. But I think we can all say that, you know, I have been reading a lot of what people wrote six months ago about this campaign. And 90 percent of it has been wrong, way off base. It's where we are today. And so I think, you know, a lot can happen still. Even if he were to

lose in Wisconsin, which I think most of the polls right now show him a distance second place, there's still a long road to go. And I think we, you know, don't know what's going to happen at the convention yet.

If there's an open convention, there are a number of different pathways that could come out of that. People don't know what is going to happen. I think most people at the grassroots level, party activists, but not people here in Washington, they want to win in November at the end of the day. I think what most people are concerned about is, is it getting too ugly in places. Are people saying I'm not going to vote or support the overall Republican nominee?

Most people across the country I think want a Republican to win if they're a Republican activist. And they would just like people to work together a little bit better, realizing it's still a race, but not damaging each other so much so that whoever it ends up being is a strong candidate in November.

BROWN: But, Genevieve, some people are wondering now, are his advisers failing him on this, especially when it comes to delegate math and so forth, having to fight for delegates?

Even though it's his first time at this, shouldn't it be something his advisers help him with?

WOOD: Well, it depends who his advisers are and if he's willing to take their advice.

Donald Trump has done some things in this campaign better than everybody else. I think he read where the electorate was better than almost anybody else. He's been able to market himself better than many of the other candidates. But there's one area where, you know, he doesn't have a political background. He's going to have to -- you know, he was behind the curve I think a little bit on this.

And part of the issue will be how fast can he catch up? All the candidates have curve balls thrown at them. That's why we have an election that is more than a month-long. We see how people test out. And I think this is kind of a testing zone for him.

BROWN: So certainly heating up on the Republican side, as well as the Democratic side. Hillary Clinton was really sort outspoken, if you will, about her rival, Bernie Sanders, as they battle it out for New York. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If you protect -- with climate change, will you act on your word and reject fossil fuel money in the future in your campaign?

HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I do not -- I have money from people who work for fossil fuel companies. I am so sick, I am so sick of the Sanders campaign lying about that. I'm sick of it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So, Dana, this is a side of the Hillary Clinton campaign we don't often see, right?

BASH: Yes. Look, this can cut many ways. But part of the rap on her is that she's not human. Guess what? She is, because she's kind of over it. And she's expressing that in a way that you don't usually see that maybe she says behind closed doors.

I should say she has used those words, but not in that tone before. Look, I think it just underscores the frustration on both sides, but particularly with the Clinton campaign now, as they are heading into Wisconsin, where it looks like, you know, it's going to be tough for her, and then her home state of New York, where she and the campaign really have to work hard, and in a way that they didn't necessarily anticipate several months ago.

[15:10:05]

So, that, I think, is all bubbling over. And, again, it's not just the process. It's the feeling that they are being attacked by the Sanders campaign and that Sanders is no longer telling his supporters at rallies to just sort of pipe down when the supporters boo and hiss and do those things when he mentions her name.

BROWN: So, Tim, I have to ask you this, because Trump's rivals -- going back to Donald Trump, they have been supporting him to one of the biggest reality TV stars out there.

Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: There's no doubt that Donald Trump is the Kim Kardashian presidential candidate. He sits on Twitter and makes a lot of noise. But he has no solutions to fixing the problem.

GOV. JOHN KASICH (R-OH), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I believe that the overwhelming majority of the delegates at a convention will take this -- will take this responsibility very seriously. And I think that's where we're going. I think it's going to be fantastic. Probably be less Kardashians, more who's going to be president.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Only a matter of time, right, until Kim Kardashian somehow made it into the presidential race. But, I mean, look, whatever Donald Trump is doing is working. He's leading the pack. Is this fair?

NAFTALI: Oh, you know, I have mentioned to someone I wonder what Ryan Seacrest thinks about this, when they said he has too much of class and too much style to associate himself with a Trump reality show. I don't know. But here's -- you know, in 1988, when Bob Dole said

stop lying about my record when he was talking to Vice President Bush, and this is when Bob Dole had just lost by a surprising -- it was a surprise to everyone. He just lost the New Hampshire primary. When he said stop lying about my record, it was shocking to people because nobody talked like that.

BASH: That was a huge deal.

NAFTALI: Now, if you don't say that the other candidate's lying, people are surprised, and I would say Donald -- that's one effect of the Trumpism or the Trumptastic effect in this campaign, is that what Hillary Clinton said about Sanders in another era might have been shocking.

Right now, the public, you know, just will say, oh, it's part of politics.

(CROSSTALK)

NAFTALI: That's part -- that's -- I'm not going to blame the Kardashians. They have their own world and people seem to like to watch it.

What's shocking, what's surprising is the extent to which there are no filters. That's what's shocking. And, Again, I won't say the Kardashians introduced that. I'm just saying there are no filters in the way in which people convey what they're thinking to their potential supporters.

There used to be a sense of being presidential, the idea that you had to be the adult in the room. That's disappeared. Now, it may not have disappeared forever, because it may be that the public is finally tiring of this. But at the moment, I have said it before and I believe that the Trump campaign is a runaway train and it's very hard to stop a runaway train in a soft and pretty way.

I'm not sure if it can be stopped. But at the moment, it's very hard to see this as anything else but a badly written B-movie whose ending is yet to be concluded.

BROWN: Yes. One thing we know is that the ending has not arrived yet. Still a lot could happen.

Tim Naftali, Dana Bash, Genevieve Wood, thank you for that.

WOOD: Thank you.

BASH: Thank you.

NAFTALI: Thank you.

BROWN: And just ahead on this Friday, CNN has combed through transcripts, interviews, videos. See what we found about how Trump sees himself and the world. Plus, first Apple refused to unlock a terrorist's iPhone. Then the

feds said, never mind, we figured it out. Now Apple wants the government to tell them how. What happens now?

And chilling video of a police officer firing eight shots at his fellow cop. We will show you what led up to this stunning mistake and the shooter's horrified response.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:18:07]

BROWN: As more police departments equip their officers with body cameras, videos of police-involved shootings are more and more common. Some show self-defense. Many are disturbing.

But this next video out of Albuquerque is unlike any we have seen. And we should warn you, it may be hard for some of you to watch this. In the chaos of a drug bust, an officer mistakenly shoots one of his fellow cops who was working undercover, his remorse horrific and palpable.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's horrific to watch, Albuquerque Police Lieutenant Greg Brachle shooting one of his own.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That was Jacob.

UNIDENTIFIED CORRESPONDENT: Intense moments to what should have been a routine drug bust. Watch just moments earlier.

That's when Brachle moves in. He speeds through this McDonald's parking lot, gets out, approaches the vehicle, when all of a sudden...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Gun, gun!

UNIDENTIFIED CORRESPONDENT: Brachle fires several types before retreating behind a nearby vehicle. It takes him a few seconds to realize what he's done.

LT. GREG BRACHLE, ALBUQUERQUE POLICE DEPARTMENT: Oh (EXPLETIVE DELETED) that was Jacob. Are you OK? (EXPLETIVE DELETED) Come on out, dude. Come on. I'm sorry, dude. I didn't know it was you.

UNIDENTIFIED CORRESPONDENT: Brachle is in complete shock. You hear him crying as he pulls Jacob out of the car and tells him to hold on.

BRACHLE: Jacob, hang in there, man. Jacob! Jacob!

Investigators say Brachle never attended the briefing for this operation. Grant was shot eight times, the bullets hitting most of his vital organs. Several surgeries later, and he is still recovering from his injuries.

BRACHLE: I thought you were a bad guy. (END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Oh, my goodness. What shocking video that is. Thank God that the officer who was shot is still alive.

[15:20:12]

That was from CNN affiliate KOAT in Albuquerque.

I want to bring in my colleague Ana Cabrera, who has been following this story.

Ana, what's your understanding of what led up to this and how this unfolded?

ANA CABRERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, you wonder how can this even take place?

What we understand, according to Albuquerque police, is this was a controlled, this was a planned drug bust. Now, Detective Jacob Grant, he was the undercover officer who was shot. He was working with a partner. They were in the vehicle with a couple of drug dealer suspects. As this drug bust is going down, at some point, Lieutenant Brachle arrives on scene.

He's in a different vehicle. And the bust is taking place. Detective Grant pulls out his gun for whatever reason, and that's when Lieutenant Brachle opens fire, hitting Detective Grant at least eight times.

Now, why was Lieutenant Brachle on the scene to begin with? What was going through his mind when he opened fire? We just don't know. Albuquerque police telling me Lieutenant Brachle never gave a statement after this incident, but you do hear in the video he seems to say this was a huge mistake, he sounds distraught, and he says I thought you were the bad guy, as he's trying to give aid to Detective Grant.

BROWN: Yes. Obvious, he's very emotional after realizing he just shot his colleague. But what has happened to him now? Is there any fallout from this? And also the wounded officer, how is he doing?

CABRERA: Well, let's start with Detective Grant. He survived. He was critically injured. He has multiple surgeries.

He is still physically recovering at home. Now, he sued the city following this incident. This all happened back in January of 2015. But we just are getting this video, which is why it's making news today. And just this week, there was a settlement reached in that civil suit, $6.5 million awarded to Detective Grant, the city also agreeing to pay all his medical bills for the rest of his life.

And he has been approved now to medically retire from the Albuquerque Police Department. As for Lieutenant Brachle, he too has retired. There was an investigation done by a citizen police oversight agency who had recommended that Lieutenant Brachle be fired, but by the time that recommendation came down, he had already retired.

There is still a criminal open case here, though. The investigation just wrapped up and has been now handed over to the prosecutor's office, who will ultimately determined whether Lieutenant Brachle faces any criminal charges, Pamela. So we will be watching.

BROWN: No matter what, this is so disturbing that that happened.

Ana Cabrera, thank you.

And, by the way, welcome back, after having your baby. Congratulations.

CABRERA: Thanks. Thanks so much.

BROWN: Up next, "I always get even," that's a direct quote from Donald Trump and part of an extensive CNN review of decades' worth of his books and interviews. Hear how the Republican front-runner describes himself in his own words. And then we will debate what it all means.

That's live with a Trump supporter and a never Trump GOP strategist with us after this break. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:27:39]

BROWN: Donald Trump in his own words.

CNN just completed an exhaustive, detailed analysis of thousands of Trump books, speeches and TV interviews. The examination covered a 30-year span and it reveals a portrait of a man who trusts no one and believes in an eye for an eye.

CNN national political reporter Maeve Reston was part of the team who reviewed Trump's writings. She joins me now.

And you really, first of all, had your work cut out for you with this one, Maeve, and you found some very eye-opening statements made by Trump, right?

MAEVE RESTON, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it's so interesting.

You know, in a presidential campaign, we're trying all the time to really understand how a candidate thinks, and, you know, what they -- how they would govern, how they would manage, who would be the people they would have around them.

And so we decided that there was so much out there on Trump that we wanted to try to understand all of that better. And it was a really fascinating look into a lot of these were just business books, but a really fascinating look into how he hires people, what he -- what he goes through with his decision-making process. One of my favorite quotes actually that we found was, he was talking

about when he makes creative choices, that: "Whenever I'm making a creative choice, I try to step back and remember my first shallow reaction. The day I realized it can be smart to be shallow was for me a deep experience."

BROWN: Wow.

RESTON: So, that's so fascinating, because it's sort of the very much how he goes with his gut instinct, I guess both with creative decisions and what he says on the campaign trail.

But there is also a lot of other themes, as you mentioned, about trust and revenge. There's actually one chapter in one of his books that's just titled "Revenge." And he talks about how he -- you know, "When somebody hurts you, just go after them as viciously and as violently as you can," and then also this idea that he used to go out and hire the best people and trust them.

But he says, "Over the years, I have seen too many shenanigans, and now I say get the best people and don't trust them."

So, it really just raises a lot of questions about what a Donald Trump White House would look like. We know he that places a huge premium on loyalty. And I think it's some really fun and interesting themes for us to explore over the next couple of months of, what kind of people would he feel comfortable having advise him? Whose advice would he actually listen to?

And so I think there is actually a lot more for us to explore there, even though everyone seems to think they know everything they -- they want to know about Donald Trump.