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Donald Trump vs. FOX News?; Battle for Wisconsin. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired April 04, 2016 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:10]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Top of the hour now. I'm Pamela Brown, in today for Brooke Baldwin. Nice to have along.

This is CNN's coverage of the fierce fight happening right now in Wisconsin. Today, Donald Trump and Ted Cruz are blanketing the battleground state as they gear up for tomorrow's critical primary, holding dueling rallies in a state that very well could decide the fate of this race.

And we will go live to those rallies any minute now, so be sure to stick around for that. And it's not winner-take-all in Wisconsin, but winner-take-most; 42 delegates are up for grabs there. And it's an all-out battle, as Trump tries to bounce back from a rocky week.

He is doubling down on his scorching calls for rival John Kasich to drop out of the race and Cruz is jumping on board as well, taking out his first negative ads against Kasich, pressure mounting as the candidates steel themselves for what could be a contested convention.

Meantime, the clash of the candidates is about to get up close and personal. Tonight in Milwaukee, both Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders have staged competing rallies just steps apart from each other. And with both candidates known to draw huge crowds of passionate supporters, it's safe to say things could get, well, interesting there.

CNN's Sara Sidner joins us live from Wisconsin, where crowds are already gathering, right, Sara?

SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They are. They are small at this point.

And the most people that are gathered here are gathered to go in and see Donald Trump. As he continues to stump, he's been here all weekend. He's staying through the primary, made that very clear, because he knows the polling numbers that have come out have not been favorable for him. He's 10 percent behind, according to the latest poll, of Ted Cruz.

And he's been hitting this place hard. We are seeing thousands of people every single time he shows up waiting to hear what he has to say. He has told people this morning in La Crosse, Wisconsin, that if he can pull off a win here, it's over, people, in the words of Donald Trump.

So, you can certainly see that he knows this is important for him, that he knows a win here is important, getting those 42 delegates Wisconsin has. And he is pushing very, very hard. So far, we have seen very, very few protesters when it comes to all these different events that he's had all weekend long.

The most we saw was about 50 to 100 people that came out last night. This is his first very, very big, big grouping here. And we expect to see quite a few people. But as you said, just a couple of blocks away, Bernie Sanders is also having a rally. And you know those two groups don't mesh well, Pam.

BROWN: Yes, to say the least. Sara Sidner, thank you for your reporting there.

And joining me now to discuss all of this, A.B. Stoddard, associate editor for "The Hill," and Dana Bash, CNN chief political correspondent.

Dana, to you first. Just bottom line, how much of a turning point is Wisconsin for Cruz and Trump?

DANA BASH, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I don't know that it's going to be a turning point,but it certainly is going to be a significant marker in this race, because if Ted Cruz doesn't win this and doesn't win, as you said, most of the delegates, which is, you know, what would happen if he does get a pretty significant win, then it's going to be very, very hard for him to catch up in the delegate count before the convention in July.

The flip side though, is, if Trump doesn't win, right now the way the polls are going, he still can. It's harder, but it's not as hard if Cruz does. It's the delegates, but then it's also the psychological momentum that Cruz can get and will get if he does win Wisconsin. And that's something at this point money can't buy and delegates don't matter -- they matter a lot, but that's something that is kind of the understood idea out there.

You know, someone I was talking to earlier on the show said there's the delegate race and then there's the momentum race, both very important here.

A.B., speaking of momentum, it seems like Ted Cruz really sees an opening in Wisconsin with female voters in the wake of the Trump controversial, right?

A.B. STODDARD, ASSOCIATE EDITOR, "THE HILL": Right. I think Ted Cruz will take any opening he can against Donald Trump in any state he can, but certainly the polls are looking good. And Donald Trump's last 10 days are looking terrible.

In a state like Wisconsin, where Republicans are so organized and have such a powerful infrastructure and are loyal to the governor there, who is popular, really organized and operated well on behalf of his recall election and his reelection. Tried to help Paul Ryan, help Mitt Romney win the state in 2012. This is a state that's ripe to stop Donald Trump.

And Dana said, if he manages to win, Ted Cruz, it's a real momentum for people who really want anyone but Donald Trump and are hoping to see Ted Cruz get ahead. But, certainly, and delegates, even if he were to get almost all of the 42, Ted Cruz, that is, he would still have more than 200 delegates, you know, deficit to Trump.

[15:05:11]

It's not that Trump will ultimately be the nominee or make it to Philly -- to Cleveland -- excuse me -- with 1,237, but he -- it would really -- it would really -- it would frustrate Donald Trump tremendously to have a Cruz victory in Wisconsin.

BROWN: And, A.B., just -- let's take a listen to Donald Trump speaking now in Superior, Wisconsin.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: In Florida, we won in a landslide. They spent $38 million on commercials. They had thousands of commercials. I turned on the television. I couldn't stand it. I said turn it off, turn it off during one of the major golf tournaments. It's my golf tournament.

During the commercial, before they gave out the trophy to Adam Scott at Doral, they come up with a commercial, four in a row, anti-Trump. And, you know, I said something. I just wrote it down. It's called never Trump. Did you hear this, never Trump? Do you know what these are?

These are establishment people that don't want to see it happen because they're all in the trough, they're all making a lot of money. I don't even think in many cases they care who wins. They want to keep it going. I just said never Trump. If they worked this hard to stop Obama, Obama wouldn't have had a chance. You know that? Obama wouldn't have had a chance.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

TRUMP: So I was riding over -- it's like my favorite topic, because I'm self-funding my campaign. I'm putting up my own money, right? And nobody does this. I guess the last might have been Ross Perot. I don't know. I don't know of anybody that does it.

I have turned down tens of millions of dollars from special interests and from people, and, frankly, from friends of mine. They want to give me millions. One guy in Palm Beach recently said, Donald, we'd like to give you $10 million. Now, for me to turn it down is, you know, it's like against migraine, because my whole life I have been taking money. I take, take, take.

That's what a businessman does, right, or a businesswoman. We take. We take. And, you know, they come up. I would like to. And one guy in particular, he's a very rich guy. Member of the Mar-a-Lago Club. And I see him like a few months ago. Donald, I would like to make a major contribution to you or your PAC.

I said, I don't have a PAC. I don't have -- you know all these guys have these phony PACs. In fact, I saw where Cruz the other day had an event run by his PAC. That's not allowed. You're not allowed to do that. They said it was paid for and run by his PAC. You're not allowed to do that, which is -- that's a whole other story.

But this guy comes up, he said, I would like to give you whatever money you want for your campaign. I said, I can't take it. He looked me and said, you're kidding, right? He's a business guy. He said, you're kidding? I said, no, I can't take it.

I have turned down so much money. If I would have accepted -- I think Bush, Jeb, had the biggest of all the PACs. He had like $148 million or something that he raised. And I think it even got a lot bigger than that. I could have had that times four or five if it would have taken the money.

And coming over, I said, you know, I don't think it's appreciated. I really -- and I'm not knocking you. But when people look at me and then they look at this guy Cruz, who's totally controlled by the people that give him the money, 100 percent totally controlled...

BROWN: Donald Trump there talking in Superior, Wisconsin, holding a dueling rally against his rival Ted Cruz. We're keeping an eye on that as well.

I want to go back to our panel and bring in Dana Bash, because he started, Dana, we didn't hear this part, but he started talking about the establishment and how negative they are toward him. This really goes to this leaked memo that you have obtained from Trump's inner circle were adviser Barry Bennett says the Republican establishment and the media have tried to paint last week as the worst week ever for Trump.

He said the opposite is true. Tell us more about this.

BASH: That's right. I have -- this is the memo right here. It's just a one-pager. It is from, as you said, Barry Bennett, a senior adviser, who's on CNN quite a bit.

It's written to Corey Lewandowski, the Trump campaign manager, and the rest of the team. And the idea in here is to try to buck up the staff and try to get a little bit of perspective from their point of view on what he even says that the media called Trump's worst week ever last week.

It concludes by saying that the question is -- there's a question they can't grasp, which is -- and they, by the way, he means us and the establishment. "America is sick of them. Their idiotic attacks just remind voters why they hate the Washington establishment."

So, yes, this is the kind of thing it's not a surprise that they want us to see it, because they believe that the narrative of last week, which, you know, was earned, Donald Trump did not have a good week, and even he admitted to a mistake, which he almost never does. BROWN: I was just going to say for the first time that I can remember

said he made a mistake with that retweet, right? That says something.

[15:10:02]

BASH: Right, with the re -- right, retweeting the pictures, the side- by-side picture of his wife, the supermodel, with a not-very- flattering picture of Heidi Cruz, Ted Cruz's wife. He did say this weekend in an interview that he shouldn't have retweeted that, which you're exactly right, Pam, I don't remember the last time Donald Trump has said anything that he regrets.

He usually doubles down, triples down, quadruples down. But this time, he was a little bit humbled after the week he had.

BROWN: So, clearly, something's going on there.

A.B., to you. I just want to talk about John Kasich. He's really the man in the middle here taking fire from both Trump and Cruz, who are for calling for him to drop out. Let's take a listen to how Kasich responded to those calls.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. JOHN KASICH (R-OH), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm dropping in. I'm not dropping out. You know, listen, here's the situation. The reason why Trump said Kasich needs to get out, I mean, think about what this guy said. He said he needs to get out because he's getting my votes and I want to have my votes. This is not fair.

I thought we got out of the sandbox years ago. No, they all want look, they wanted me to get out for a long time. Let me tell you what the situation is. Why would I get out when I'm the person, number one, who beats Hillary in the fall?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: OK, so that's one explanation from Kasich.

But, A.B., why is he staying in the race? I mean, when you look at the numbers, it's mathematically impossible basically for him to win the necessary delegates, right? Why is he staying in this race?

STODDARD: Oh, yes, he doesn't plan to win at the ballot box between now and July. He plans to win at the convention. And some of the best minds in the party in terms of political operatives are working on Kasich's behalf.

As many phone calls as he gets asking him to drop out, he gets a lot of them begging him to stay in, saying he's the only hope of beating Hillary, that Cruz will go down, that Trump will go down, that he's, you know, the only path for rescuing the party.

There are many people who still believe there's so little left to lose for the Republican Party that choosing John Kasich over Cruz and Trump at the convention would be an acceptable path because he's the most viable candidate for a general election. He's encouraged. I thought that his sort of Freudian slip about I'm not dropping out, I'm dropping in, was hilarious, because he doesn't pretend to have a path to get the votes because now and the convention.

BROWN: Speaker of Kasich, Trump just addressed him moments ago at this rally. Let's take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I didn't think so. But how about Kasich? He's won -- how many states are there that we have gone through, like 30 or 32, whatever it is? He won one. I would have won that one if I had two more days. I stayed in Florida to campaign, because I thought it was close.

We won Florida, by the way, in a landslide, won by almost 20 points. And I should have left Florida a little early, but I didn't want to take a chance on losing Florida. So, if I went to Ohio one extra day, maybe two days, I would have won. We came in very close against him and the machine that is in Ohio, which is fine, I understand it.

But here's the guy, he's one in 32. And the one is his home state. I mean, give me a break. And he almost lost it. So, he's one for 32. And he just says, I'm going to keep running. I'm going to keep running. I don't care. He's taking my votes, because he's not taking from Cruz, he's taking from me.

And I say to myself, it's unfair, because Marco could have stayed. Marco was doing much better than he was. Marco could have stayed. They all could have stayed. Jeb Bush could have stayed, right? You know, he would have liked to have stayed.

Low-energy. He would have stayed. Just stay. But they all could have stayed, if you go by that theory. So I think it's unfair. And I will tell you, one thing about Kasich, he voted in favor of NAFTA. He's in favor, which is a disaster. That sucked the businesses from Wisconsin and everyplace else.

You have to see New England. Just took them away. He voted in favor. And what he wants now is TPP, Trans-Pacific Partnership, a total disaster for our country. Led by the special interests. Led by the lobbies. Led by countries that want to rip us off and take our jobs, led by people -- this is going to make NAFTA look like a baby, folks, and you shouldn't allow it.

Ted Cruz wants it. Ted Cruz wants it badly, because his people that give him money are telling him, we want it. And it's a bad thing for our country, believe me, folks, a really bad thing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: There we hear Donald Trump addressing John Kasich, calling for him to get out of the race.

I want to thank our panel, A.B. Stoddard, Dana Bash. Thank you so much. Wish we could talk more. There's so much to discuss. Appreciate it, guys.

[15:15:03]

BASH: Thanks.

BROWN: And be sure to stay with us as we build up to Wisconsin. Our special coverage of the presidential primaries will take place all day tomorrow right here on CNN.

And just ahead: a revealing new profile on Donald Trump suggests he now wears a bulletproof vest and has a -- quote -- "arsenal of secrets" about FOX News. We will discuss.

Plus, one of President Obama's former advisers says a civil war is breaking out among Democrats. I will ask a Bernie Sanders surrogate if he agrees.

And it's being called a -- quote -- "colossal mistake." New details emerging into the cause of a deadly Amtrak crash on one of the busiest corridors in the country. We will have a live report after this break.

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BROWN: Well this or won't they?

Democratic presidential front-runner Hillary Clinton says she's ready to face off with Bernie Sanders, and Sanders says he's ready too. But the two camps can't agree on the date. And they're lashing out at each other about it. Sanders told CNN he's confident they will figure something out soon.

But in the meantime, the battle for the New York primary is in full swing.

[15:20:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (VT-I), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If we win in New York ate, between you and me, I don't want to get Hillary Clinton more nervous than she already is. She's already under a lot of pressure. So don't tell her this.

But I think we win here, we win in New York state, we're on our way to the White House.

HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I was so proud to be a New Yorker all those eight years I represented you. I have always been proud, but I am even prouder today.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So here now, Bernie Sanders surrogate and former Ohio State Senator Nina Turner.

Thanks for coming on, Nina.

NINA TURNER (D), OHIO STATE SENATOR: Thanks, Pamela.

BROWN: First question. Clinton's camp has come out and said it has proposed three debate dates, all of which the Sanders camp has turned down. Why haven't they accepted any of those dates, Nina?

TURNER: Well, Pamela, let's correct the -- tell the truth about this. Senator Bernie Sanders is the one that asked for the debate to happen in New York.

And he has had to work very hard, his campaign, to get the Clinton campaign to even agree to do a debate, to have a debate in New York, period, let alone try to agree on the date. It's my understanding that Senator Sanders has accepted an NBC date of April the 10th and let's hope that the secretary will accept that same date.

It's vitally important that both presidential candidates, Democratic candidates have the debate in New York, one of the biggest states in this country, and a state where Senator Sanders was born and raised and the state where Secretary Clinton served as senator. This is very important and pivotal, and I'm confident, too, that both sides will work it out.

BROWN: Nina, the Sanders campaign put out a memo saying a loss tomorrow in Wisconsin would be devastating. Why did they say that?

TURNER: A loss would be devastating for Senator Sanders?

BROWN: Yes.

TURNER: Well, I'm not sure why the campaign would say that.

Senator Sanders is working very hard. We know that he is up in the polls in Wisconsin. He's really working hard there. He's there right now. And actually a big turnout is what is going to drive the win for Senator Sanders. He's fighting through every single state.

And so I think that is not just based on the polls, but based on what people are saying on the ground, based on the energy and enthusiasm that he's revving up on the ground there in Wisconsin, that he will in fact be successful in that state. But he's not taking anything for granted.

And I think from the campaign's perspective, they never want to get a big head about anything. Ultimately, we know that no matter what polls say, voters ultimately have the final say.

BROWN: So, there's this "New York Times" report out that suggests that the Sanders campaign had several missteps early on, including this notion that the camp could have -- the Sanders camp could have gone harder in Iowa. How do you respond to that?

TURNER: Senator Sanders has never run a negative campaign, Pamela. He prides himself on staying on the issues. It's easy for "The New York Times" to talk about the what the senator could have done. It's very hard. And everybody should understand it's very hard to run

a national campaign. He's not been running for the presidency of the United States of America for eight years. He got into this race because he saw a need. He saw a need to have a champion stand up and say that we need to pull people up out of poverty; $15 an hour for minimum wage puts people in a living wage category.

We live in a country where a college or a high school diploma is no longer what is necessary to sustain. We need to make sure that every young child and young person in this country knows that they can grow up and go to college, either college or university, to increase their skills, that we need paid family leave, that we need to have universal health care in this country.

So, Senator Sanders got into this race because he knows that the American people need a champion. He didn't get in this race because of ego. He got in this race to lift people in this country.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: But do you agree that there were some missteps early on, particularly in Iowa, as "The New York Times" is saying in this article?

TURNER: Well, I don't agree with "The New York Times."

And "The New York Times," quite frankly, will not be the ones that decide who will be the president of the United States of America next. It will be the American people who will decide. The voters will decide that. And, again, it is hard. It is challenging to run a presidential election. Hindsight is 20/20.

I have run campaigns as well. You always have that moment where you question, should I have done something differently. That's with any campaign, whether it's a seasoned campaign or not. But the bottom line is that I'm very glad that the American people will have the final say and not pundits and not newspapers. The voters will have the final say.

BROWN: So, Nina, former White House official and CNN commentator Van Jones said that there's a civil war in the Democratic Party. I want you to listen to what he said and then respond on the other side of it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: A civil war is breaking out in the Democratic Party. This went from being, hey, you know, I don't care about your e-mails, blah, blah, blah. We're all going to play nice here.

As this thing has gone on, what's happened is, Bernie Sanders should be out. In a normal situation, he would be out. Last month, he raised $41 million, $42 million.

[15:25:05] We're in the middle of a second Sanders surge. And now both sides are

getting frustrated with each other on everything. So it shows up. It's like a couple fighting over some total side issue. There's a deeper fight.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: And, you know, talking about the debate, can't agree on a debate date. That's just one of the issues he's referring to. But do you agree, Nina, that they're in a civil war right now, that we're in the middle of this second surge for Bernie Sanders?

TURNER: Well, I wouldn't necessarily call it a civil war, even though I certainly understand what Van Jones is talking about.

Look, this is a race about contrasts. This is a contest being held between two folks who want to become president of the United States of America on the Democratic side. This is about who can win over the hearts and minds of the people and the voters.

That's what this is about. And so Democrats may not have thought that there was going to be a candidate who was going to challenge Secretary Clinton, but guess what, there is one, and his name is Senator Bernie Sanders. And he is fighting very hard. He just won the last six of seven contests.

And as Van Jones pointed out, Pamela, yes, the people, the average donation to his campaign is $27 an hour -- not $27 an hour -- I wish people were making $27 an hour -- excuse me -- the average donation is $27, and he raised $44 million in the month of March fueled by people power.

So there are millions of people in this country who want to see Senator Sanders continue to prevail, continue to raise the money. You need money for the mission. And at least he is doing that. He is mirroring his campaign by having it powered by everyday people so that, at the end of the day, the only folks he will have to answer to will be the people.

So, it's a charge. And that is what primaries are all about. It's a challenge about ideas. And that is happening. And I'm so glad Democrats and others, even independents who have a chance to vote in open primaries will have an opportunity to decide who they want to be the person, the nominee for the Democratic Party.

BROWN: OK, Nina Turner, we will leave it there. Thank you very much for that.

TURNER: Thank you.

BROWN: And just ahead, right here in the newsroom, a revealing new profile on Donald Trump suggests he now wears a bulletproof vest and has an arsenal of secrets about FOX News.

We will discuss that. And we're also going to go to Wisconsin, where Ted Cruz is speaking right now, issuing a challenge to Donald Trump.

That's next.

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