Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Interview With Former Arizona Governor Jan Brewer; Trump Reveals Wall Plan; Wisconsin Votes. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired April 05, 2016 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:03]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We could have a big surprise folks, big surprise. Feels like South Carolina. This feels like New Hampshire. I think you are going to have a big, big turnout. You are going to have a great surprise today.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Saying a big surprise, saying he will win, Ted Cruz won't. Ted Cruz leading in the polls.

Let's get to the voters now who are going to the polls.

CNN national correspondent Jason Carroll is live in Brookfield, Wisconsin.

Jason, I know you have been talking to voters there. What are you seeing, what are you hearing?

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, in terms of what we're seeing, let's go to that first.

Still a steady line of folks that have been coming in. At last count, some 1,200 people, Pamela, have come through these doors so far to cast their vote.

Want to very quickly introduce you to two of them. It's Dan and Verna Donovan (ph).

Just want to point out very quickly this man here is a World War II veteran, 89 years old.

Want to thank you very much for your service, sir.

Both of you decided at one point considered Donald Trump. Both of you decided to vote for Cruz.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

CARROLL: Can you tell me why?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think our age, our fundamental upbringing and great-grandchildren arriving, I want to make sure -- and then we have a daughter that's a doctor. It's very difficult.

And our child that is just graduating from college, and he wants -- he's in premed and wants to be a doctor. And that's a hard program for them too.

CARROLL: And, Mr. Donovan, I want to get you in here as well. What about you?

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I was a Trump man all the way for such a time as this.

I thought for the various issues that were coming involved, we needed someone that would really go after these people and do their job. But what started to bother me in the end here now is Donald Trump is starting to pick up too much excess baggage, with the women vote and the women aggravation and so forth. So that was the big thing that made me change my vote to Cruz.

CARROLL: All right, want to thank both of you, again, and thank you, sir, again for your service.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.

CARROLL: Thanks for coming out and talking to us. Really appreciate it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's our joy.

CARROLL: Thank you very much.

Again, despite what you hear there from these two and what we have been hearing, frankly -- and this is just anecdotally once again, but from a few people coming in here, folks, Pamela, who were sort of deciding between Trump and Cruz, haven't heard very much about Kasich, but really between Trump and Cruz, most of those who we have been talking to decided in the end to go for Cruz -- Pamela.

BROWN: Very interesting perspective there on the ground from our Jason Carroll. Thanks so much for that, Jason.

Much to discuss and here with me to do it, CNN chief political analyst Gloria Borger. Also joining me, the author of the book "George H.W. Bush," "The American President" series, Tim Naftali. He's also the former director of the Nixon Presidential Library. And CNN chief political correspondent Dana Bash.

So, Dana, first to you, before we sort of dissect everything and what we just heard from those voters there in Wisconsin, break down for us why Wisconsin matters so much.

DANA BASH, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, for a whole host of reasons. Number one, just the numbers, because this is the delegate race right

now, and the 42 delegates in Wisconsin are -- it's not New York numbers. It's not more than 200. But it's significant, so that's number one, just the numbers. And, number two, it's the sort of psychological momentum for whomever does end up winning. Assuming it is Ted Cruz, it keeps him in the race, not that he was going anywhere, but it allows him to make the argument to supporters and maybe more importantly donors that he genuinely is in the hunt for the nomination and could potentially pull it off.

It's a long shot, but could potentially pull it off before the convention. So that is really one -- some of the main reasons, but also just big picture, Wisconsin is a kind of core Midwestern state. That tells us a lot about the electorate nationwide.

BROWN: Gloria, up until today, we were talking about whether or not -- speculating about whether the controversy surrounding Donald Trump recently would really have an impact, and you just heard in Jason's live shot that anecdotally he's hearing from voters on the ground that it has, that they actually decided to go Cruz instead of Trump.

What do you make of that?

GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, we're going to know this evening.

Wisconsin starting out was never supposed to be a great state for Donald Trump. There are a lot of evangelical voters, Catholic voters. Voters in Wisconsin tend to be higher educated, particularly around Milwaukee, for example. So, heading in, this wasn't going to be a fabulous day for him.

If we see that Donald Trump does not do well, like below 35 percent or lower than that, you might be able to extrapolate and say, yes, that some of these controversies have started to drag him down, because the closer you get to nominating someone to become your party's nominee for the presidency, the more this question of electability seems to matter.

[15:05:02]

And from the voters that Jason was just talking to, that seemed to be going through their minds with, you know, the gentleman saying I don't think we need the aggravation of the woman problem, right, in our nominee, so he ended up going for Cruz.

So this is one of the things we're going to be we're going to be looking at tonight.

BROWN: Tim, it seems like all the pundits are saying that Ted Cruz is going to win. We see him leading in the polls. But this is an open primary. Anything can happen. But given what just Gloria said, would it be a surprise if Donald Trump wins?

TIM NAFTALI, FORMER DIRECTOR, NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY: Well, if you look at the polls, and that's really all we have to go on, Cruz is ahead by at least five points.

We were surprised in Michigan. Sanders won Michigan, but the polls on the Republican side, with the exception of Kansas, have tended to be pretty good. If Trump were to pull out a victory, I think a lot of pollsters would be worried that they really couldn't handicap this race at all.

Here's what we need to look at, though, because it's all about delegates right now. How well does Trump do in the congressional districts? Because there are eight congressional districts in Wisconsin. Each one has three delegates. Trump was leading in at least two of the congressional delegates -- two of the congressional districts as of yesterday. Kasich was very competitive in and around Madison. So he was doing pretty well in one.

And the rest were going towards Cruz. For Donald Trump, it's all about delegates now. Now, his big, big prize will be New York and also California. He expects to win lots of delegates there. But he needs to do win -- he needs to do well in these smaller states to have any shot of getting close to the magic number in Cleveland that people think he has a lock on the nomination.

So, even if he loses today, the issue is how many delegates does he get, does he pull it out in a couple of these congressional districts? That's what we will be looking at tonight.

BROWN: Many are saying if he does lose, we're heading to a contested convention, bottom line.

I want to talk about President Obama and the remarks he made today about how the Republican race for president has impacted foreign relations. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think that I have been very clear earlier that I am getting questions constantly from foreign leaders about some of the wackier suggestions that are being made.

I do have to emphasize that it's not just Mr. Trump's proposals. I mean, you're also hearing concerns about Mr. Cruz's proposals, which in some ways are just as draconian when it comes to immigration, for example.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So, Gloria, to the Republican base, any time the president speaks out against a candidate, does it actually help the candidate?

BORGER: Sure, but that's fine with President Obama. He believes -- this is his legacy at stake. And he believes quite honestly, and it's very clear to us that he'd like Hillary Clinton to be the nominee, I believe, that he believes that if Hillary Clinton runs against Donald Trump or Ted Cruz, she will win and he's going to do everything he can to help her. Particularly, you know, in the head-to-head matchups against Trump, she does very well. So if he -- by criticizing Trump, if he actually helps Trump get the nomination, so Hillary Clinton can win, that's a little convoluted and a little Machiavellian, but it is what it is. Then it's fine with the president.

BROWN: So, Dana, on that note, the White House says the president welcomes questions about Trump. Is this all legacy? Is it unusual for a sitting president to be so outspoken about presidential candidates?

BASH: In modern times, it's a little bit unusual. I think if you look back, history, which we have all been able to do watching the series that Tim has been in, which is fabulous, "THE RACE FOR THE WHITE HOUSE" on CNN, a little plug there, it's not that unusual for sitting presidents to be as outspoken.

But Gloria's absolutely right. This isn't just any president. This isn't just any time. This is a -- not just a legacy issue, but I think, give him credit, it's not just politics. It's he genuinely is concerned about the policies that he vehemently disagrees with, as President Obama said in that clip, not just from Donald Trump, but also from Ted Cruz.

And if he starts in now, when it gets to the general election, it's not just riling up the Republicans, which I think Gloria's exactly right, that that's part of what he's trying to do. It's about the independent voters and people who aren't sure where they're going to go and, you know, President Obama's words and his opinion will matter more.

BROWN: All right, Gloria Borger, Dana Bash, Tim Naftali, thank you so much for that.

NAFTALI: Thank you.

BASH: Thanks.

BROWN: And be sure to stay with CNN for special primary coverage starting at 5:00 p.m. Eastern and all through the night as the results come in.

[15:10:02]

Just ahead right here in the NEWSROOM, Bernie Sanders says if he wins tonight and again on Hillary Clinton's home turf in New York, it's ball game, he wins the White House. Is he on to something? I will talk to Clay Aiken and Van Jones about tonight's razor-close primary.

Plus, Donald Trump reveals on how he plans on forcing Mexico to pay for his wall. It's a plan that would decimate the Mexican economy. How realistic is it? We will discuss.

And I will speak with a family who could not watch last night's game- winning shot because of a sibling rivalry. An incredible story. You will not want to miss this. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Right now, voters are hitting the polls in Wisconsin. And make no mistake, what happens here could have major implications in the race for the White House.

[15:15:00]

Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton are locked in a tight race too close to call. Sanders is trying to build on his winning streak, while the Clinton campaign points to her lead in the delegate race. Sanders and Clinton are completing for 86 delegates up for grabs in Wisconsin.

He says momentum is on his side and Clinton is getting nervous. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (VT-I), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: So don't tell her this. I think we win here, we win in New York state, we're on our way to the White House.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So, joining me now, Van Jones, CNN political commentator, and Clay Aiken, a former congressional candidate, who is now a Bernie Sanders supporter.

Thank you both for coming on.

Clay, I actually want to go to you first to get reaction to something Van said yesterday. He said that there's a civil war among Democrats. Do you agree with that?

CLAY AIKEN, BERNIE SANDERS SUPPORTER: I don't know if I would call it -- I think civil war might be a little bit of an exaggeration. It's politics.

And people in political races are going to start throwing things at each other, and I think that's natural. But you look at 2008, and we were in the same position, people who were voting and supporting -- voting for and supporting for Hillary Clinton were saying they would never vote for Barack Obama if he got the nomination. People who were supporting Barack Obama said the same thing about Hillary Clinton.

And at the end, we saw that wasn't the case. I think regardless of who the nominee is -- and, yes, I voted for Bernie Sanders, but if Hillary Clinton becomes the nominee, as a Democrat, I'm going to rally behind her. And I think if you look at the other side of the aisle and you will see who they're about to put up, either Ted Cruz or Donald Trump are certainly going to be a rallying cry.

If there is a civil war, there's going to be a heck of a good reconstruction after this primary is over, because the Democrats will certainly band together. BROWN: Van, do you have any response to that?

VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think he's more right than wrong.

I do think there are some differences from 2008, though. In 2008, the young rebels backed Obama and they won. And then the more seasoned forces on the Clinton side came around. In this situation, the young rebels, the idealists are likely to lose, if you look at the math. And you're going to have to have them make a tough decision to take all that energy, enthusiasm and go with the candidate that they less comfortable with.

Can they rise to that occasion? Is that the right thing for them to as a generation? That's the fight they're having internally. I do think that the level -- if this level of strife were happening without the circus on the Republican side, we would be paying a lot more attention.

When a Rosario Dawson comes out and gives the kind of ringing endorsement for a Bernie Sanders and really tough criticism of Hillary Clinton and almost gets no mention, that's not because of the health on the Democratic Party side. It's because there's so much craziness on the Republican side.

You there's a lot going on, on the Democratic side as well.

BROWN: Well, and a lot going on particularly just today in Wisconsin. So much is at stake for both camps.

But, Clay, Bernie Sanders, as we heard, said he has momentum. Math, however, is not on his side. Why is this so important for him to win in Wisconsin?

AIKEN: Obviously, the math question is really the -- is really the issue here. Obviously, he certainly needs to cut into Secretary Clinton's lead in the pledged delegates, and I think it's all about the pledged delegates.

And so if he wants to have any success in New York and Pennsylvania and in California and Oregon, on down the line, he's going to really have to really cut in with a larger margin, admittedly. As a supporter, I realize he can't win these states by two or three points. He's going to have to win them by double digits even.

BROWN: And just going back to what Bernie Sanders also said, Van, that if he wins in Wisconsin and Hillary Clinton's home turf of New York, that's it, game over, he's going to get the White House, do you buy that?

JONES: Well, you know, it's a good theory. First of all, up until now, everybody has won their home states. You know, Rubio lost his home state and he got out. The reason that Rubio is out and Kasich is in on the Republican side is Kasich, even though he has fewer delegates than Rubio, won his home state. Rubio had more delegates than Kasich, but he lost his home state. And

so there's this kind of rule you get out if you can't win at home. I think the only theory that you can have if you think Bernie can get there is that he's going to surge so strong, that the second surge will be so strong and Clinton will start to limp and to collapse, such that she even loses her home state, then the superdelegates swing to Bernie.

What's interesting is, you have Bernie, who was critical of the superdelegates earlier, now seeing them as possibly the savior of his effort. Very, very interesting switch of positions on superdelegates going forward.

BROWN: Very interesting.

Let's look ahead to next week's CNN debate.

Clay, where's the risk for each of them? And then I'll go to you, Van.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Go ahead, Clay, and then I will go to you, Van.

AIKEN: OK.

Obviously, the risk for Clinton is that where she's dealing with her home state, she did win Arkansas, she did win Illinois -- she got three home states, really. But she's dealing with the state that she represented in the Senate. And she obviously on the 14th certainly needs to make sure she has a strong enough performance.

[15:20:10]

But I think, with her, she can't win New York by one or two points. I think she's going to have to show -- obviously, Senator Sanders needs to win New York. But I think if Hillary Clinton starts -- wins New York by only a few points, I think that also is going to signal to some donors that there's some vulnerability there.

Whether or not she's going to have -- whether or not winning it by a few points will be enough to get Sanders the momentum he needs on the West Coast, I doubt, but I certainly think she really needs to win New York by a sizable margin in order to stay strong and not look vulnerable.

BROWN: OK, so, Van, what's the risk to Bernie Sanders?

JONES: Well, look, I mean, if he does not do well in New York -- I think he's going to do very well today. But he had that Michigan miracle which kind of brought his hopes back. And then he was beaten in Illinois. And so his whole Rust Belt argument fell apart.

Now he's saying he's got to beat her here. If he can't win in New York, the danger for him going forward, at a certain point, as he ratchets up the attacks, are you just doing the Republicans' work for them? That's a question he' got to ask and answer.

And do you start creating a core around yourself that cannot pivot back to the Democrats in the general election? So, he's got to do well in New York. Then he's got a rationale for going forward. The surge is working. But if the surge falters here, he's got to look in the mirror and say, do I want to be known as the guy who just poisoned the well for Hillary Clinton, even though I couldn't get there myself?

BROWN: Van Jones, Clay Aiken, interesting perspectives from both of you. Thank you.

JONES: Thank you.

BROWN: And up next on the NEWSROOM, Donald Trump puts it in writing, outlining how he will get Mexico to pay for the wall. The White House wasting no time responding. Obama calling it -- quote -- "a half- baked plan." We will talk details and whether he can legally pull it off. The former Arizona Governor Jan Brewer joins me up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:26:25]

BROWN: As Donald Trump battles for votes today in Wisconsin, the New York billionaire is laying out just how he plans to force Mexico to pay for that border wall he's talked so much about.

It comes in the form of a two-page memo released today. And in it, Trump outlines how, as president, he would threaten to cut off crucial money transfers from immigrants in the U.S. to families still living in Mexico unless Mexico agrees to make a large lump payment to fund his wall.

Two former Mexican presidents have already rejected Trump's call for Mexico to foot the bill, and you may remember this colorful response.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VICENTE FOX, FORMER MEXICAN PRESIDENT: I declare, I'm not going to pay for that (EXPLETIVE DELETED) wall. He should pay for it. He's got the money.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: All right, so there's a lot to talk about.

Let's bring in CNN senior White House correspondent Jim Acosta.

Tell us more about the plan, Jim.

JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

Well, Pam, this is the response from the Trump campaign to months of criticism from inside the Beltway essentially asking Trump, where's your plan to help -- to force Mexico to pay for this wall on the Mexican border? And essentially what they have laid out in, as you put it there, it's a two-page memo that is essentially on the Trump campaign Web site now. What it says is that they're going to start cracking down, if Donald Trump is elected president, cracking down on remittances coming from Mexican citizens who are living inside the United States, perhaps illegally.

And what the Trump campaign is saying is that if the government of Mexico does not fork over the $5 billion to $10 billion estimated to cost -- or to pay for this wall, that they're going to pass a rule, that a President Trump would essentially put through an executive action that would pass through a new regulation that would essentially crack down on those remittances, stop those remittances, force people to show proof of citizenship before they can wire money to relatives down in Mexico.

There are other ideas in this proposal that are laid out there, talking about cracking down on visas for travelers coming to and from Mexico and the United States.

And Donald Trump at a campaign stop earlier this morning was asked about whether or not this is practical and here's what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: It's self-explanatory. The wall is a fraction of the kind money in many different ways that Mexico takes in from the United States. The wall is a fraction. You're talking about a $10 billion wall. You're talking about a trade deficit with Mexico, $58 billion, and probably going to get worse, if they run it.

If I run it, there won't be a trade deficit.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Now, as you might expect, Pam, there's some pretty fierce criticisms coming at the Trump campaign, at Donald Trump, over this proposal.

One Latino group calls it dangerous and an insult to Latino immigrants. And President Obama himself took to the White House Briefing Room earlier this afternoon and called it wacky and half- baked.

So, I have to tell you, being out on the campaign trail with Donald Trump, this is not necessarily a bad thing in terms of how they think about it on the campaign trail. When you go to these events, Pam, by and large, this is the number one applause line for Donald Trump.

And to have a former president of Mexico, President Obama or even some Latino groups hammering away at this proposal from Donald Trump, this is not something that they're going to really be unhappy about over at the Trump campaign. They welcome this criticism. They actually think it helps them out on the campaign trail, Pam.

BROWN: All right, Jim Acosta, thank you so much. And let's continue this conversation with the former Governor of Arizona and Trump supporter Jan Brewer.

Governor, thanks for coming on.

JAN BREWER (R), FORMER ARIZONA GOVERNOR: Thank you, Pamela. And it's great to be with you.

BROWN: So, first off, bottom line, do you think Trump's plan is realistic?