Return to Transcripts main page


Republican Candidates Battle For Votes In Wisconsin; Sanders And Clinton In Tight Race In Wisconsin; Fallout Over "Panama Papers" Widens; How Wisconsin Could Reshape The Race; Iceland's Prime Minister Resigns Over "Panama Papers" Scandal; Hours Away from Wisconsin Primary Results; Donald Trump's Loyal Supporters; The U.K.'s 150-Year-Old Abortion Law; Hillary Clinton Courts Women. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired April 5, 2016 - 15:00:00   ET




GORANI: Hello, everyone. I'm Hala Gorani. We're live from CNN London. Thanks for being with us this hour. This is THE WORLD RIGHT NOW.

Checking the clock for you, six hours and counting, we're waiting for the polls to close in Wisconsin to see how voters there may have reshaped the

race for U.S. president. The campaign trail is much quieter today while the primary is underway.

But Republican frontrunner, Donald Trump is making a few stops in Milwaukee, polls have had him trailing Ted Cruz in Wisconsin for some time,

but this primary could also indicate whether a series of recent missteps are taking a toll on Donald Trump.

As Phil Mattingly reports, his rivals have been working hard to capitalize on his setbacks.


DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Thank you, Wisconsin. I love you. Go out and vote. I love you.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Final 24 hour blitz, Republican candidates exchanging insults and fighting for votes ahead of a

primary that could reshape the Republican race.

TRUMP: I've never, ever met anybody that lied like him.

SENATOR TED CRUZ (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: His security blanket is to insult people.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think they are becoming hysterical.

MATTINGLY: Donald Trump on damage control after the worst week of his campaign.

TRUMP: Every week, it's the end of Trump! Then they walk in, sir, I don't know what happened, but your poll numbers just went through roofs.

MATTINGLY: Rolling out female supporters and his wife, Melania, in a desperate bid to improve his standing with women.

MELANIA TRUMP, DONALD TRUMP'S WIFE: No matter who you are, a man, or a woman, he treats everyone equal.

MATTINGLY: Senator Ted Cruz looking to capitalize on Trump's weakness.

CRUZ: I know that Donald, it makes him feel really tough. It makes him feel like a very, very big man to threaten people, and in particular he

seems to have a problem with strong women.

MATTINGLY: And once again denying tabloid reports accusing him of cheating on his wife.

CRUZ: That attack was complete and utter garbage. It was complete lies and it came from Donald Trump essentially.

MATTINGLY: Trump and Cruz both calling for Republican rival, John Kasich to drop out of the race.

TRUMP: He's 1 in 30. He ought to get the hell out. Honestly.

CRUZ: If you lose 49 states, you ain't going to be the Republican nominee.

MATTINGLY: A proposal that Kasich flat out rejected.

JOHN KASICH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He said he needs to get out because he's getting my votes. And I want to have my votes. This is not

fair. I thought we got out of the sand box years ago.

MATTINGLY: The Ohio returning fire accusing Ted Cruz of playing dirty politics in response to a series of attack ads that the Cruz campaign

rolled out this weekend.

KASICH: He smeared Ben Carson. He smeared Marco Rubio. He smeared Donald Trump, and now he's smearing me. Don't push me around. You think you can

push me around and get away it, you're wrong.


GORANI: Well, there you have it. John Kasich, important contest today. Even though there aren't as many delegates at stake as say New York in a

week's time or so.

On the Democratic side, Bernie Sanders is hoping to scope his sixth win out of the last seven contests. Polls show him in a very tight race with

Hillary Clinton in Wisconsin.

But her campaign has been down playing the importance of today's primary. In fact, she's not even in Wisconsin focusing instead on the next

battleground with a much bigger delegate prize, New York.

Clinton talked about the race during a guest appearance on a TV show, popular with women in the U.S.


HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We won some. He's won some, but I have two and a half million more votes than he does. And I have a

very -- I have a very significant lead in delegates, which is what eventually decides who the nominee is.

But I'm thrilled that we've run a campaign, and yes, we're going to be critical. Our supporters are going to be critical because we both have

records. We both have agendas.

But, on balance, I think it's been a campaign that's been good for the Democratic Party and good for the country. And I'm very proud of that.


GORANI: All right. There you have Hillary Clinton. Now before we move on, I want to show you the delegate count. Of course, this is the all-

important number that each candidate is trying to reach in order to secure the nomination of their party.

[15:05:04]Let's look at the Republicans first, 1,237 is the magic number for Republicans -- but no, we are starting with the Democrats. Here you

have Hillary with a pretty commanding lead of 700 delegates at 1,742 against Bernie Sanders 1,051.

Let's look at the Republicans before we move on to Chris Frates, one moment here just to give you a sense of the picture there, 740, 474, 145, you can

understand why both Cruz and Trump would prefer for John Kasich to drop out of the race.

Now Bernie Sanders is predicting he will win Wisconsin if there is high voter turnout. Let's go live to Green Bay. Chris Frates is there with

more. It's a very close, close race in Wisconsin for the Democrats -- Chris.

CHRIS FRATES, CNN INVESTIGATIONS CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Hala. It's a close race and Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton have both said if

there's turnout, they expect that they can do well.

So I have good news for them, we are seeing high turnout in Wisconsin today. Just in this polling place in Wisconsin, in Green Bay, we've seen

already 600 people coming through the doors since 7:00 a.m.

They usually get about 1,600 officials here expect that they will beat that number and that's good news for Bernie Sanders as he continues to try to

really run up the score on Hillary Clinton. He needs as many of those 86 delegates as he can get.

Remember this is not winner take all, it's proportional. He needs to get as many of those delegates as he can. He needs to win as many votes as he

can to do that.

Because right now as you just talked about, he's down by 240 delegates to Hillary Clinton. So he needs to have a big win here in Wisconsin and he's

hoping to use that momentum, going into New York.

Now, Hillary Clinton already campaigning in New York. She's really lowered expectations here in Wisconsin. She believes it's better political ground

for Bernie Sanders for a number of reasons including into a majority white state.

Bernie Sanders seems to do better with white voters than Hillary Clinton. Hillary Clinton has swept in states that has a number of minority voters.

And so she's looking to New York because she's leading by double digits there. She wants to keep that lead.

She wants to solidify her firewall against Bernie Sanders and she's been campaigning hard there, Hala, and we have a big event coming up in just a

few weeks, April 14th here on CNN, we'll see both Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton go for the first time since a month ago ahead of the big

crucial April 19th empire state primary.

That's when 250 delegates are up for grabs. That's second only to California. So if Bernie Sanders really wants a shot at catching up with

Hillary Clinton, he really needs to upset Hillary Clinton in her adopted home state of New York -- Hala.

GORANI: All right. Chris Frates, thanks very much. We'll see what happens if Bernie Sanders is not able to win Wisconsin in a significant and

decisive way. We'll see if that alters the race at all. Thanks very much. Chris Frates is in Green Bay, Wisconsin.

Let's turn now -- we'll have more U.S. politics in a moment. I want to talk about the fallout from the Panama papers. The scandal is widening.

Iceland's prime minister, the first major political casualty today.


GORANI: David Gunnlaugsson resigned today after mass protest on the street of Reykjavik, the capital, a massive breach of confidential documents on

Sunday revealed that the prime minister's ties to an offshore company withholdings in Iceland, Iceland's failed banks.

This is something brought to the attention of Icelanders, they were unhappy about it. The collapse of Iceland's economy in 2008 is clearly so fresh on

the minds of people there.

Now, a slew of world leaders are under scrutiny over the document breach. It came from a law firm in Panama, a law firm that helped create companies

that in many cases allegedly existed to hide wealth from tax collectors and other investigators.

The British Prime Minister David Cameron has been dragged into the controversy because his late father set up an offshore company for

investors that reportedly never paid taxes to the U.K. We had a response from David Cameron today. And here it is.


DAVID CAMERON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: Two things I'm responsible for are my own financial affairs and for the tax system of the United Kingdom. In

terms my own financial affairs, I own no shares.

I have salary as prime minister and I have some savings, which I get some interest from and I have a house, which we used to live in, which we now

let out while we're living in Downing Street. And that's all I have.

I have no shares, no offshore trusts, no offshore funds, nothing like that. And so that I think is a very clear description.


GORANI: So there you have it. David Cameron is I saying, not me, I have nothing to do with. So we know that Cameron's father, Ian, is linked to

the leaked documents. A number of Tory lawmakers, party donors, and members of the House of Lords are also named in the documents.

Let's get a closer look and an official reaction now to what happened in this whole Panama papers scandal. I'm joined now exclusively by Panama's

ambassador to the U.K., Daniel Fabrega. Mr. Ambassador, thanks for being with us.

[15:10:04]DANIEL FABREGA, PANAMANIAN AMBASSADOR TO THE U.K.: Thank you very much, and it's a pleasure to be here with you today. As you can

imagine, it has been a very, very busy week, but in terms of the position of the government, we're taking this very seriously.

Panama is and has always been a highlight of the international community and is working together in order to making sure that we have a transparent

government and have a transparent legal and financial system as well as (inaudible) corruption.

GORANI: So what do you mean when you say the government is taking this very seriously? Will there be changing perhaps in the way some of these

law firms like Mossack Fonseca are operating?

FABREGA: Well, actually, it's really a shame that it the title is Panama's paper because it is not about Panama. It's about also 21 jurisdictions.

Therefore, it's a key indicator that Panama together with the international community needs to work together in order for this to avoid from happening


GORANI: OK, what will Panama do though?

FABREGA: Well, actually President Varela has been very clear, there are two center message of this administration. One is transparency and second

tackling corruption. The other thing is that in the 21 months of this administration, we have created unprecedented set of legal reforms in order

to have a more robust, legal, and financial system.

We have -- we were recently d-listed from the gray list of FATF, and also we have 30 double taxation treaties with different countries that are all

over the world.

GORANI: OK, I think those are details that I think maybe our viewers are not fully going to understand. I have to ask you more sort of headline

questions, and by the way, France put Panama back as a result of this leak back on the list of countries that it says are not helpful in terms of

uncovering tax evasions.

FABREGA: Well, I think, every country is going to take this, depending on the country, they are sovereign to do so and panama is taking this case by

case. We have complied with everything and the FATF has seen so.

We have made major advances in terms of creating again, the proper legal framework in order to strengthen our legal and financial sector, in order

to avoid any type of wrong doing through our legal and financial service sector.

GORANI: But is the government looking at the scandal now at the leaked documents and deciding that perhaps there are some reforms that need to be

made? In the sense that perhaps the nothing illegal has happened.

But that there's a difference between something that's illegal and something that shouldn't be done because for whatever reason, it's


Because this law firm helped create, for instance, some shell companies for friends of Putin or Assad family members. Is there something there that

needs to be changed?

FABREGA: Well, actually, the attorney general of Panama already started a formal investigation on this allegations. The president yesterday stated

that they open any investigation and we are here to cooperate in order to strengthen Panama and the international communities legal and financial


And Panama is a global, responsible citizen of the world. And we will be at the forefront of making sure that we cooperate with all the authorities

in order to clarify the name of Panama and make sure that we're doing all the proper processes that need to be done.

GORANI: But is it your belief that in some cases, some very shady people, some rogue regimes like the Syrian regime, were clients of these law firms

in your country that helped and advised them to set up shell companies?

FABREGA: There's the case about -- I'm not here on behalf of the law firm. I'm here on behalf of the government of Panama. I can tell you what we

have done in 21 months of this administration and what we -- the progress that we have done in terms of transparency and corruption.

And there has been significant progress. In that sense, recently, actually, the vice president of Panama visited one of the things that we're

assigned was an MOU of transparency and actually the foreign secretary of the U.K. mentioned in one of his statements that we are making progress in

terms of transparency.

GORANI: This was before this leak. All of this was before this leak. How will this leak change things because now all of us are able to look at

these documents and see some of the clients that have been advised by the law firm that they say this law firm, Mossack Fonseca, is in full

compliance with Panamanian law.

FABREGA: Well, actually, that investigation again has taken place has started. We'll see what the conclusion of that investigation is. I'm not

here again on behalf of the law firm. What I can say is the measurements that panama has taken in the first 21 months, and this does not start in

this administration.

It also starts in 1994 when we already created the proper platform in order to avoid again using our legal system, I mean our financial system to avoid

any type of money laundering or finance for terrorism.

GORANI: Is it your belief then that -- and I know you're here as a representative of the Panamanian government, not of this law firm. But is

it your belief then that nothing untoward took place here?

[15:15:07]FABREGA: Well, evidently, there are a lot of questions that need to be clarified and the proper authorities are doing. And again we the

government are cooperating in any investigation and we will be giving the best of us.

And we will demonstrate as a country that we're fully, fully in compliance with anything necessary from the -- of the international that needs -- the

international community and we will therefore make sure that everyone around the world sees Panama as a responsible country in the way it handles

this investigation.

GORANI: All right, Ambassador Daniel Fabrega, thanks very much for joining us here in the studio. We really appreciate your time. Stay put.

Still to come tonight, it's all about the map, we'll see how today's primary in Wisconsin could chip away at the delegate lead of Donald Trump

and Hillary Clinton or then again, the pundits may be proved wrong.

Then we'll return to the political turmoil in Iceland, all triggered by the release of the so-called, "Panama papers." We'll be right back.


GORANI: Returning now to the critical primary under way in the U.S. state of Wisconsin, but aren't all primaries critical these days? The results

won't produce any new frontrunners, but they could force Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton to fight harder to try to win their respective parties


Let's look at the map. We touched upon this a few minutes ago, but here it is. Ted Cruz and John Kasich are hoping to deny Trump the delegates he

needs to sew up victory before the convention this summer. It's anybody's guess what would happen then.

As for the Democrats, Hillary Clinton's campaign calls her delegate lead over Bernie Sanders nearly insurmountable. A claim he strongly denies.

Let's check out the Clinton/Sanders delegate count. There it is.

Little late, better late than never, 1,742 to 1,051. Let's bring in John Nichols, national affairs correspondent for "The Nation." Thanks very much

for being with us.

So let me first ask you now, could Donald Trump truly be, truly be in trouble in Wisconsin here?

JOHN NICHOLS, NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT, "THE NATION": Sure. He could be in quite a bit of trouble in Wisconsin. He's always polled worse

in Wisconsin than in most states. I don't think his style has been a good fit for Wisconsin.

Traditionally it's been very polite state, not quite as ugly in its politics as some places, and the political establishment on the Republican

side, which didn't always like Ted Cruz has pretty much united behind him.

Certainly the governor of Wisconsin, Scott Walker, many key legislatures in the Republican majority and a lot of talk radio, which is a very powerful

conservative voice in the Milwaukee area. So yes, Trump has a lot of trouble in Wisconsin.

[15:20:07]GORANI: So, this is still a small group of delegates and looking forward to the big important contest which is New York, Donald Trump should

have an edge there though, right?

NICHOLS: You're right, he should. In fact polling shows him way ahead in New York as well as many other northeastern states, but there's two ways to

look at politics are especially in this volatile year.

One is the delegate map, and something that a lot of political insiders and pundits like to talk about. The other is momentum now, and that is the

notion that some insurgent or some alternative is winning and seems to be winning in a pattern of states.

For Ted Cruz, he's had some wins in other places recently, if he wins Wisconsin, that's going to give him some momentum. That'll at least get

him to New York. He may stumble there, but at this point in the game, just getting from state to state is an important thing for some candidates.

GORANI: All right. We'll see thousand pans out. Both of the candidates, the two leaders in the polls calling on John Kasich, number three to drop

out. He says no way, I'm not going anywhere.

Could we talk about the Democrats here? It's a close race in the polls, however, if Bernie Sanders doesn't win Wisconsin in a decisive way, could

we start to see the beginning of the end of his race?

NICHOLS: Well, it would change his race. There's no doubt about that. Wisconsin's a very important state for him. He's won a series of caucuses

recently if he wins Wisconsin, that will help him a lot again in that momentum math heading toward New York.

But, if he loses Wisconsin, which is the kind of state he has to win, that is certainly going to change the narrative to some extent and be a real

challenge for him.

GORANI: What was the impact of Bernie Sanders who really I don't think anyone whose observed this race expects to clench this race is what has

impact been? What is it still on the Democratic race?

NICHOLS: It's been a dramatic impact. There's simply no doubt of that. He started it around 3 percent, no one expected him to be a serious factor.

He's instead turned into a major player. He's won 15 primaries and caucuses.

He could win Wisconsin tonight. Also, if you go into these rallies, I mean, it's quite amazing the crowds that he is drawing, and the final thing

is that Hillary Clinton is a very sophisticated political figure.

She has listened to what Sanders has said, and I think that she has evolved and taken in ideas from his candidacy. So there's no way to suggest he

hasn't been a powerful force.

GORANI: Right, absolutely because the issues he's bringing up are clearly important to a very big chunk of the Democratic electorate. He's a

surprise because he's bringing up these issues that obviously are a source of frustration for many voters on the left.

So is this going to color for instance if it indeed happens to be that Hillary Clinton is the nominee? Have an influence on our choice for

running mate or other ways. What would be your guess on that?

NICHOLS: I think that there's a very good likelihood it has an influence. Sanders already has 1,000 delegates, if he keeps going, no matter how it

turns out, he'll go to the convention with one of the largest numbers of delegates for an insurgent candidate in the Democratic Party in quite a

long time.

That allows you to influence the platform, it also allows you to make some suggestions and throw ideas into the mix as regards to vice president, and

remember that many of the issues that Sanders has raised are populist issues, economic populist issues that frankly do cut across ideological


So that might well influence Hillary Clinton to pick a running mate who can touch on some of those issues.

GORANI: All right. Of course, we don't have an official nominee, and Bernie Sanders supporters still want their candidate to remain in the race

and believe he can win. And everything is possible in this election certainly as we've seen. Thanks very much, John Nichols of "The Nation"

for joining us from Madison, Wisconsin. We appreciate it.

Now let's return to the fallout from the Panama papers and the situation in Iceland where the prime minister today resigned over fallout from that


We're joined now by journalist, Zoe Robert via Skype from Iceland's capital. She's a deputy and web editor of the "Iceland Review."

Zoe, thanks for being with us. The prime minister tried to resist as much as he could and in the end, he had to go. Tell us more about how today


ZOE ROBERT, DEPUTY AND WEB EDITOR, "ICELAND REVIEW": That's right. He went to the president with a request for a solution of parliament and snap

elections. The president rejected this request saying that he needed to speak to other people from the coalition partner and other members of


Later that day, be the MP from the progressive party, he announced that he would now be prime minister, but the current prime minister will continue

as leader of the party. So he has not yet been formerly sworn in.

[15:25:08]GORANI: So Zoe, just let me just try to understand this, I mean, I read what the leak suggested his involvement might be in some of these

offshore holdings that his wife ended up being the sole proprietor, is this a belief in Iceland that this prime minister did something illegal or

corrupt. Is that what people are believing?

ROBERT: This is more of an ethical question. Why was he not up front about his links to an offshore company? And why did he hide -- why did he

handle this week's journalist on a Sunday night which was published on Sunday nights in the way that did avoid the questions. Walking out, not

being up front about these links. This is more of an ethical question rather than a legal question.

GORANI: All right, perhaps the conflict of interest, some people are saying, anyway, we'll see how that whole investigation unfolds. Zoe

Robert, thanks very much.

And a quick programming note, CNN's Arwa Damon is taking us to the frontlines of the fight against ISIS in Iraq. Take a look at this.


GORANI: Well bursts of gunfire and artillery fire, suicide bombers, this is some of what the Iraqi army faces almost daily in its effort to reclaim

parts of the country from ISIS. Take a look.


ARWA DAMON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): General (inaudible) men only recently recaptured this village, and a handful of

others. The first tentative steps in the battle for Mosul. Iraq's second largest city that humiliatingly fell to ISIS after Iraqi security forces

abandoned their positions around two years ago.

These are men retrained, under new command, forces that will repeatedly be put to the test. Will they hold this ground and fight or again flee?


GORANI: Well, join Arwa as she travels with the Iraqi army. All part of our special coverage, "The Frontline against ISIS" beginning Wednesday only

on CNN as part of our distinctive programming we've been bringing you regularly here on the program.

Now we're about to head to the final hours of the voting in Wisconsin. We'll be live at a polling station next and later, he's been counting on

them to come out and vote for him no matter what. We'll look at Donald Trump's die hard supporters as well. Little later in the program, stay

with us.



GORANI: Welcome back, a look at our top stories. We're just hours away from the first results in Wisconsin's pivotal presidential primaries.


GORANI: Voters in that U.S. state are choosing presidential nominees today and Donald Trump could be dealt a setback in his effort to clinch the

delegates to secure the Republican nomination.


GORANI: Also among our top stories, Iceland's Prime Minister resigned today after mass protests on the streets of Reykjavik.


GORANI: A massive breach of confidential documents on Sunday revealed Davio Gunnlaugsson's links to an offshore company withholdings in Iceland's

failed banks.


GORANI: And we're also keeping an eye on this story. Azerbaijan and Armenia have agreed on a cease fire in the contentious region of Nagorno-Karabakh.


GORANI: Days of fighting have claimed dozens of lives on both sides. Several countries including Russia urged both countries to stop fighting.


GORANI: South Africa's President has survived an attempt to impeach him after a vote in parliament today.


GORANI: The ruling ANC party threw its support behind Jacob Zuma to easily defeat the opposition's motion. The President has been dogged by a quite a

long running corruption scandal.


GORANI: Voting in the Wisconsin primary is well under way. It is currently -- this is the part where I have to do the math. I believe its 2:31 p.m.

central time; let's check in with Jason Carroll who's been following the Republican side of the race, he's at a polling station in Brookfield. How's

it looking, Jason?


JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, let me just show you how it's looking right now, Hala. You can see there's still some folk here in line.

There's been a steady stream of them all day long coming into cast their votes here in Brookfield.

Election officials expecting record turnout, expecting 1.75 million people to head into polling places like the one you see here. You know when you

think of Wisconsin, Hala, just think of - think of it this way, and when you think of Republican voters, think of the wow counties, Waukesha,

Ozaukee, and Washington counties, they tend to lean heavily Republican. This is where much of the effort has been put in by the Republican Party to

get out of the vote. So far it appears to be working.

At this the particular polling spot, 1200 people have been in here so far. A little bit of anecdotal information to give you a few, we've been

speaking to a few voters out here as you know it's sort of been neck and neck here in the state between Donald Trump and Ted Cruz. A number of

people saying that they were, you know, sort of waffling between the two candidates. And most of them telling us that they decided to go for Cruz

over Trump. Mainly because of you know in some respects, Trump's terrible week that he had last week.

I mean the Trump camp says look, we've had worst week. But by any account last week was not a good week for Donald Trump. His inability to sort of

come to some sort of like foundation on abortion, you know, he had the issues with his campaign manager, the President calling him out for his

foreign policy.

And it seems to be having an effect at least with some of the voters that we've been speaking to here in Wisconsin. Hala.

GORANI: So, but this is interesting what you're telling us this anecdotal information which is that people might be switching their vote to Cruz not

because fundamentally the make-up of the Wisconsin electorate would naturally lean towards a candidate like Cruz, but because of some of the

gaps and issues the Trump campaign has had?

CARROLL: Exactly, exactly. I mean without question at least based on some of the voters that we've spoken to.

But look, even having said that, despite the - despite the fact that Trump even admitted over the weekend that he might have some problems with female

voters because of what he said and what happened last week. But even having said that, Trump says, I might be behind in the polls, I might be having

problems with some people, some folks out there in the electorate, but he is still predicting a surprise. He said it this morning, he said it over

the weekend, tell many people who showed up at a town hall there's going to be surprise here, I've been behind in the polls before in places like South

Carolina, in New Hampshire, I came out on top and I'm going to do it again here today.


GORANI: All right. Jason Carroll in Brookfield, Wisconsin, thanks very much. We'll see if there is indeed a surprise.

Up until now, Trump has seemed mostly unaffected by any scandal. As Gary Tuchman reports that's because of a strong base of very, very loyal



GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT Five hours in the snow is to see their man. These are the Trump true believers.

Whatever he does is OK with you?

JUDY ALCALAY, TRUMP SUPPORTER: It's OK with me. I will stand by him because I believe in him and I know what he'll do is right.

TUCHMAN: So if he put hot coals to this rally, would you walk over the hot coals for him?

ALCALAY: Absolutely. You put them out right now I will.


TUCHMAN: And more and more of these true believers are adopting an us against the Republican establishment viewpoint. Do you think the Republican

Party is trying to steal the nomination from Donald Trump?


TUCHMAN: You all agree?


TUCHMAN: Do you think there's a conspiracy to take this away from Donald Trump.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely. Absolutely. I have voted Republican my whole life. I'll follow Trump. Whether he goes independent, third party, I'm

voting for him either way.


TUCHMAN: Across the states in lacrosse a different Trump rally, but the same sentiments.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think they're trying to pull a fast one.

TUCHMAN: The Republican Party?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think the Republican party is not only going to, they're not going to try to, they're going to steal it from him.

TUCHMAN: If Trump doesn't get the nomination, would you support the Republican nominee?


TUCHMAN: So what would you do?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would stay home.

TUCHMAN: Presidential candidates often get the benefit of the doubt from their most local supporters, but in rally after rally, it's increasingly

evident that nobody cultivates loyalty more successfully than Donald Trump.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just love Trump and I don't want anybody else but the Trump. He's my man.

TUCHMAN: And like the candidate himself, many of them agree that if Donald Trump is mistreated by the Republican Party this election, they'll return

the favor.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If they steal it from him, I think he's going to get the 1,237 and if they try any shenanigans to take it I will leave the

Republican party forever.

TUCHMAN: Another one of the Trump true believers.

Gary Tuchman, CNN, Milwaukee.


GORANI: Well, of course there are two primaries under way in Wisconsin, Republican and Democratic. And there's a lot of, -- a lot at stake in both

of them.


GORANI: John Avlon is the CNN political analyst and the Editor in Chief of the Daily Beast and Ryan Lizza is a CNN political commentator and a

Washington Correspondent for the New Yorker.


GORANI: Thanks to both of you for being with us. Let's first - and I'm going to ask Ryan Lizza this. Let's first talk about Donald Trump in

Wisconsin. Could we start seeing Donald Trump in trouble on any level? Even though he's clearly the front runner in terms it of delegates right


RYAN LIZZA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Oh absolutely. I think we are at a tipping point in this race and Wisconsin is a very important event.


LIZZA: If Ted Cruz wins the 42 delegates tonight, and that is possible, it's possible for Cruz to win all 42, Donald Trump will have to win 60% of

the remaining delegates between now and June 7th. And remember up until this point, he has only won 47% of the delegates.

So tonight's a big night for the stop Trump movement and I think it's more than likely if he loses Wisconsin, that we are seeing -- we are going to

see an open convention, that Donald Trump will come up just short of a majority. So Wisconsin is pivotal.


GORANI: All right. But John Avlon, even if he loses Wisconsin, he's way ahead in New York, more delegates are at stake there. So how do you see the

race shaping up from now on?

JOHN AVLON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, as Ryan pointed out, I mean we've got basically two dynamics, there's momentum and delegate math.

The momentum if Ted Cruz wins you know Wisconsin will be behind him.


AVLON: And Trump will have suffered the win coming out of a sails in his series in caucuses and primaries. But as you say, New York, Donald Trump's

home state is coming up next. And that's an even bigger delegate prize. Then the question is what's the math going out from there?

And what we have now is an ornate game of keep away inside the Republican Party. Trying to deny Donald Trump the nomination despite having a really

impressive start to this primary season among the Republican primary electorate. And whether Ted Cruz can come in doing more delegate discipline

political math and saying look, I'm a better nominee. Now whether that's the case has yet to be seen.

John Kasich is sort of the third spoiler in the situation, probably polls show a better general election candidate than Hillary Clinton but a

distant, distant third.


GORANI: But Ryan, and I'm not sure we still have Ryan, because it looks like his return screen is completely -- are you here? Oh there, you're

back, you're back.

LIZZA: I can hear you.

GORANI: But if that happen -- good. But if that happen though, are you -- isn't the Republican Party I mean no matter what it does in some big

trouble here because blocking Donald Trump from the nomination by playing delegate math is still disenfranchising a big chunk of the electorate that

vehemently supports him.

LIZZA: I think the Republican Party, the RNC needs to start explaining to the media and to its voters that it's not really the public that chooses

the nominee, it is the delegates at the convention, and there are rules that govern that process.

The basic - the reason we all think it's the - it's the - it's the public in these primaries is because on the first ballot, most of the delegates

are bound by the results in their state. But if you don't have a majority going into the convention, the rules are very, very clear, you don't win

the nomination it goes to a second ballot, and the delegates, those several thousand delegates on the floor of the convention can do whatever they

want. And I think a lot of people don't know that or understand that because we haven't had a convention like that in a long time, but that is

the process. So I - this argument that it would be stolen

GORANI: -- Great, well because the - because the race is so long - I think we can - right, no but I get that because the race is so long and involves

so much of a popular vote and state by state and it's covered so much blow by blow on cable news and on television and elsewhere. But I think people

believe John Avlon, let me -- you know, that this is -- we've gone through all of this, at least the results should reflect the vote on some level.

AVLON: That would make sense, but what you have here is a big game of damage control on the part of Republican Party power brokers at the very

least who recognize that in all likelihood that a Donald Trump nomination would mean disaster in the fall.

Now we are a long way from the fall. And there are 1001 x factors that could occur. But you know not only the senate could be imperiled, but even

possibly the house in some modeling.

Now the question is whether that would be any different if Ted Cruz were the nominee.


AVLON: And the game to watch if this is a contested convention is those rules. Right now the rules say you've got to win a majority in eight

states. If those rules change, you know, it's anybody's game. It could be genuinely open.

But the fact that Donald Trump will almost certainly be coming into Cleveland with a majority of delegates means it is very difficult to deny

him the nomination. Not impossible, but difficult. And his supporters that you just heard from Gary Tuchman are deeply into Donald Trump. So what

you've got is a completely chaotic situation.


AVLON: And the Republican Party man who is trying to control the chaos to put forward a competitive candidate, whether or not that's what the base

they've created wants or not.

GORANI: OK. Let me ask you both the same question before we end this. Ryan, what has surprised you the most, just in the last few weeks as you continue

to cover this race?

LIZZA: I think what surprised me is that Trump has finally seemed to have hit a patch where the stuff that he says actually matters to a certain

number of voters. Right, I mean the cliche up until this point was that he could say whatever he wants and it just strengthened his sport. What's

actually happening in the Republican Party is that both sides are digging in.


LIZZA: The opposition to Trump is strengthening, and as Gary Tuchman's piece showed, his supporters are more unwavering than ever. But, March was

a disastrous month for Donald Trump from his remarks, the KKK flap through his abortion comments last week, and it finally actually started to matter.

And so, you know, the rules of political gravity are starting to apply even to Donald Trump.

GORANI: Interesting. And the same question to you, John. Anything has -- although this has been a race so full of surprises, I mean you could just

pick your favorite moment, but just in the last few weeks anything stand out to you?


AVLON: Yes, absolutely. I mean you know even within the context of the fun house mirror in the 2016 campaign, the rise of Ted Cruz consolidating the

anti-Trump support including support from people like Jeb Bush and Mitt Romney, the center right trying to consolidate around Ted Cruz is an absurd

situation when seen with any sense of perspective.

This is a candidate who was campaigning as the ultimate outsider. First term senator whose major accomplishment is shutting down the government.


AVLON: Who is widely loathed by his colleagues in in the senate, and yet he's being rallied around as the savior of the Republican Party, at least

in the stop Trump sense without any evidence that he would be a more -- significantly more competitive general election nominee. And in the midst

of this, John Kasich, Ohio Governor, swing state successful governor, he can't seem to get arrested when it comes to getting endorsements, let alone

delegates. So even the alternative to Donald Trump is affected by Trumpian strangeness.


GORANI: All right, John Avlon, Ryan Lizza, thanks to both of you, appreciate having you both on this evening.

LIZZA: Any time.

GORANI: And don't forget, you can always check out - you can always go online on our Facebook page and find us at This

is "The World Right Now."

Anger across Poland as the government considers a complete ban on abortion. Even in cases of rape.


GORANI: That's not the only country that's grappling with the issue. We'll speak to Amnesty International, coming up.




GORANI: So in the past week, Donald Trump has come under fire for controversial and sometimes contradictory comments about abortion. You'll

remember last Wednesday, Trump said if the procedure were outlawed in the United States that women who have abortions should face "some form of

punishment." Here's some of what he said during an MSNBC town hall.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE HOST: Do you believe in - do you believe in punishment for abortion, yes or not, as a principle.

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The answer is that, there has to be some form of punishment.

HOST: For the woman?

TRUMP: Yes, there has to be some form.

HOST: Ten years, what?

TRUMP: That I don't know - that I don't know.

HOST: Why not?

TRUMP: I don't know.

HOST: You take positions on everything else.

TRUMP: I frankly i do take positions on everything else, it's a very complicated position.


GORANI: Well, he took back those comments almost immediately after a storm of criticism and later he flip-flopped on whether federal laws should be

changed to outlaw abortion.

While Trump's comments sparked outrage here in Europe, well some people might be surprised to find out that here in the U.K., there actually is

still one place where 150-year-old abortion law is in the books.

It's in Northern Ireland, and today a woman actually received a three-month suspended prison term for inducing her own termination.


GORANI: The woman can't be named for legal reasons. She pleaded guilty to charges after ordering abortion inducing drugs online. Her lawyer says she

wouldn't have been charged if she lived anywhere else in the U.K. Anti- abortion groups have slammed the sentence as too lenient. The judge in the case says he doesn't know of anyone ever having been prosecuted under the



GORANI: Let's discuss this with Jamie Todd Gher, she's from Amnesty International's law and policy team and she's in San Diego and joins us via


So this is something that surprised people, explain how you could have this law, this 150-year-old piece of legislation in one part of the United

Kingdom, and not in others where a woman can be sentenced to jail for getting an abortion.

JAMIE TODD GHER, HUMAN RIGHTS ADVISOR, AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL: Yes, well, it's really interesting because, you know, the unique jurisdictional rules

between Northern Ireland and the rest of Great Britain and they devolved regulation around these matters some time ago. So you have people, you

know, living in the same region and formerly governed by the same law, and at one point, the United Kingdom liberalized its abortion law and yet the

book -the law in the books from are the 19th century remains in Northern Ireland. It's - I mean it's really a terrible situation for women and girls

in Northern Ireland.

GORANI: Well, because there's this - there's sort of this notion that in west -- you know, people look at the United States and Western Europe and

they say how can this still be a matter that's up for debate?


GORANI: But it is up for debate in places like Northern Ireland and also in Central Europe because stay with me, I want to show our viewers of protests

in Poland in recent days. Thousands actually took to the streets in protest of a proposal to completely ban abortion even in cases of rape or incest.

The Prime Minister is the woman, she says she supports the move and it is causing outrage among some in the country.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Basically the abortion law in Iran - in Iran is more liberal (inaudible), so we have to protest.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The polish government right now has given support to a terrible and barbaric act to totally ban abortion in Poland and also make

it a criminal offense for the woman who not only under an abortion, but also just had a miscarriage, and this might mean persecution for them. And

this is a completely barbaric act and we cannot allow this to happen in European Union.



GORANI: OK, so are you observing Jamie, kind of a, a step back in terms of abortion rights campaign in Europe? And if so, why do you think?

GHER: Well, it's really interesting because what's going on in Europe is primarily in Eastern Europe and it's contradictory to the global trend

where we see that 60% of the world's population lives in countries where the law has been liberalized.


GORANI: Right.

GHER: But there is this trend in Eastern Europe where you're seeing increasing restrictions on women and girl's access to abortion and

proposing a ban on abortion in Poland would be devastating. You know research from the World Health Organization and for decades it's confirmed

that when you criminalize abortion, it doesn't reduce abortions but just makes them more dangerous to the threat of women and girls' health and



GORANI: All right, Jamie Todd Gher of Amnesty International, thanks very much for joining us as this continues to be a topic that is generating a

lot of debate.


GORANI: Coming up in a U.S. campaign season filmed with outrageous name- calling, the word liar seems to have taken a step above the rest. We'll show you how, next.




GORANI: Well, as we mentioned earlier, Hillary Clinton has skipped Wisconsin and the delegates at stake there. It is a close race in

Wisconsin, but she has decided that strategically it is more important for her to be in New York. Now we know there's going to be a CNN hosted debate

in Brooklyn and that's where Hillary Clinton is molding a town hall meeting for women in New York.

Hillary Clinton is leading in the polls, she's leading in terms of the number of delegates, by the way, we're seeing the backs of people's heads a

lot here, but I'm told that at some point or another, we'll see Hillary Clinton pop up from behind these individuals.


GORANI: Either way, the reason she's hosting a town hall for women is clearly because she knows that this this is a demographic she needs to woo

a little bit more effectively in order to make more of a dent in the polls. And in order to certainly win primaries and caucuses thanks to that

demographic as decisively as possible.

The democrat Bernie Sanders is banking on a huge show of support from young voters. Sarah Sidner has that part of this story from Wisconsin's largest




SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Bernie Sanders turning up the heat on Hillary Clinton in the battle for Wisconsin. Ground zero for the Sanders

campaign, the University of Wisconsin Madison with some 43,000 potential voters.

AUGUST MCGINNITY-WAKE, COLLEGE DEMOCRATS OF UW MADISON: You only get one presidential election when you're in college -- when you're an undergrad

student in college. So this is it for us, this is the one, so people are pumped.

SIDNER: Junior Jackie Spaight is so pumped, she's stumping for Sanders on campus.

JACKIE SPAIGHT, UW MADISON STUDENT: There's never been a political candidate that I've agreed with so much on. So it's really cool.

SIDNER: She's an example of the latest poll results showing among likely Democratic primary voters 18-29 years old, 8 in ten pick Sanders.

SPAIGHT: It's frustrating that you're not a feminist because you're a woman and you're a Bernie supporter because I would love to see a woman

president, but I don't agree with Hillary on everything. So you know, it's about representation versus policy in politics.


SIDNER: But down the hill, badgers for Hillary have been working feverishly to tell their peers, Clinton's policy show she has what it takes.

BRENDAN COHEN, UW MADISON STUDENT: For me it comes down to experience, she's the most experienced candidate in the race. From senator to Secretary

of State, some people are making really big promises that it's hard to see how they'll come true, and I think we realize that real change comes

through, you know, real plans, and I think Hillary is the best candidate.

BRIANNA KOERCH, UW MADISON STUDENT: Being pro-choice, Hillary actually pushed legislation through while she was in the senate whereas Bernie has

kind of had the right stance, but I don't think he has been the strongest advocate for me as Hillary has been.

SIDNER: When it comes to young voters who are under 30 years old, they have a history in showing up here in bigger numbers than in some other states.

JOE ZEPECKI, DEMOCRATIC POLITICAL ANALYST: Eight years ago, so the 2008 primary, voters aged 18-29 made up about 17, 16, 17% of the electorate.

That's a pretty sizeable chunk. I think you might see it dip a little bit higher than that on Tuesday.

SIDNER: Wisconsin is one of 11 states, plus D.C, that allows for same-day registration which tends to increase the number of youth at the polls.

SPAIGHT: I think we're expecting a really big turnout and when that happens, we win.


GORANI: Sara Sidner reporting there. At neighboring Michigan's primary last month, Bernie Sanders pulled off an upset victory over Hillary Clinton

winning a whopping 81% of the youth vote. So you see he's very strong with that demographic.

A lot is going to go on in the next few hours, some pretty decisive developments in the race for the White House. We'll have it all covered for

you here on CNN. This has been "The World Right Now, I'm Hala Gorani, thanks for watching, "Quest Means Business" is up next.