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Bernie Sanders Beats Clinton in Wisconsin; Democratic Candidates Gear Up for CNN Debate Next Week. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired April 06, 2016 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:00] CUOMO: While Officer Mars started to make these calls to try and find a shelter for them and his partner, Prycer instinctively got out of the car to play hopscotch with the girl.

CAMEROTA: That's awesome.

CUOMO: To connect. To let her know that it was all OK. It's not the first time Prycer has done something like this. He says he wants children to feel comfortable in tough situations. Life is hard. You don't have to make it more hard.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

CUOMO: And it's not just part of protect and serve. It's part of being a human being.

PEREIRA: I love that.

CAMEROTA: It's fantastic.

PEREIRA: I love that.

CAMEROTA: It's like your hair.

PEREIRA: All right. It's time for "NEWSROOM."

CUOMO: I told you it was real.

PEREIRA: Good morning, dear.

(LAUGHTER)

CUOMO: Toupe on, Carol.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Yes.

CUOMO: Proved her wrong. Stitched in there double. Cost me an extra 1500.

CUOMO: I witnessed it. He's telling the truth.

NEWSROOM starts now.

CUOMO: 1500. COSTELLO: And good morning. I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much

for joining me.

Frontrunners go down and chances of a contested convention way up. Ted Cruz tops Donald Trump as Democrats in Wisconsin feel the Bern. Both candidates celebrating today after Wisconsin's critical primary.

On the Democratic side Sanders grabs his sixth consecutive win beating Hillary by more than a dozen points. And a big day for the anti-Trump movement.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED CRUZ (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Tonight is a turning point. It is a rallying cry.

Let me just say, Hillary, get ready. Here we come.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Cruz stomps on Trump and picks up more than 30 delegates. Trump's path to the GOP nomination now in jeopardy as the Republican Party moves one step closer towards a contested convention. Trump would now have to win 60 percent of all the remaining delegates to clinch the nomination.

Is that even possible?

We're following all of this with our team of political correspondents and experts. But let's begin with CNN's Christine Romans. She's breaking down the results.

Good morning, Christine.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Carol, you know, Wisconsin was a must-win for Ted Cruz and Bernie Sanders and they both did just that.

Let's look at these numbers here. Cruz's decisive victory in Wisconsin really shaking up the Republican race. He won more than 48 percent of the vote. 42 delegates up for grabs. Cruz will take 36 of those. Donald Trump will get three delegates, which means he's still on top of the GOP delegate race, but as we get into the home stretch, Carol, the math isn't adding up for him to clinch the nomination before the convention.

This of course sets the stage for a delegate fight at an open convention. With 16 primaries and caucuses to go Trump will need to win 60 percent, Carol. You see it there. 60 percent of the remaining pledged delegates to reach the magic number of 1237.

Look at Ted Cruz. He's got to win 88 percent. John Kasich, he's got to win more delegates than there are. Not impossible for Donald Trump, but unlikely.

For the Democrats, Bernie Sanders nabs more than 56 percent of the vote. That brings his number of pledged delegates to 1,066. A little more than 200 behind Hillary Clinton's total. But Clinton leads with the super delegates. Assuming all of the super delegates stay committed to their candidates, Clinton only needs 36 percent of the remaining pledged delegates. 36 percent to clinch the nomination. But super delegates don't count until they actually vote on the convention floor.

So what's ahead for Clinton? Are delegate-rich states like New York, like California? A big map still to go. She's already spent a great deal of time there. The Sanders campaign hoping some of his momentum recently will cause those super delegates to jump ship. But you can see here still a long way to go for Bernie Sanders. He has to win 77 percent of all the remaining delegates.

Republicans face the real possibility, Carol, of not having a nominee before the start of their convention. Sanders supporters dream of the same situation for their party.

COSTELLO: All right. Thanks for breaking down the numbers, Christine. I appreciate it.

Cruz's big win over Trump now potentially resetting the Republican race as the candidates set their sights on New York state.

Let's bring in CNN's Phil Mattingly for that part of the story. Hi, Phil.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Carol. Well, Ted Cruz's campaign attacked Wisconsin. In the last couple of weeks they deployed major ground operations, unparalleled compared to any other candidate or campaign. They had targeted ads. Not only set to boost Ted Cruz but also to take down John Kasich, the third candidate in the race who's threatening Cruz in some congressional districts.

All in all it was an effort that not only worked but may have reset the race.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CRUZ: Hillary, get ready. Here we come.

MATTINGLY (voice-over): Ted Cruz pulling off a big win in Wisconsin's Republican primary. The victory for Cruz narrowing Donald Trump's path to the nomination and moving the party ever closer to a contested convention.

CRUZ: Tonight is a turning point. It is a rallying cry.

MATTINGLY: Cruz's win the most substantial since defeat of Trump in Iowa.

CRUZ: Three weeks ago the media said Wisconsin was a perfect state for Donald Trump. But the hard-working men and women of Wisconsin stood and campaigned tirelessly to make sure that tonight was a victory for every American. [09:05:10] MATTINGLY: Trump now facing a nearly impossible

mathematical challenge to amass the 1,237 delegates needed to capture the nomination. A rough week of political blunders, attack ads, and questions about his ability to be presidential loosening the frontrunner's grip as the presumptive nominee.

Former presidential candidate Lindsey Graham, who reluctantly backed Cruz, tweeting, "Well done, Ted Cruz. Hopefully tonight is the turning point to deny Donald Trump 1,237 delegates."

In the hours before polls closed, Trump hit the trail hard. It wasn't enough.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You could have a big surprise tonight, folks. Big surprise.

MATTINGLY: Trump's campaign mostly silent after his loss, only releasing a biting statement against the Cruz campaign, saying in part, "Lying Ted Cruz had the governor of Wisconsin, many conservative talk radio show hosts, and the entire party apparatus behind him." Going on to say, "Ted Cruz is worse than a puppet. He's a Trojan horse, being used by the party bosses attempting to steal the nomination from Mr. Trump."

Cruz, meanwhile, celebrating his big win.

CRUZ: My wife Heidi.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Heidi.

MATTINGLY: Ensuring she shares the spotlight after Trump re-tweeted an unflattering photo of her, which he later acknowledged was a mistake.

CRUZ: I may be biased, but isn't she going to make an amazing first lady?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MATTINGLY: And Carol, all eyes now turn east. The New York primary next on the map. April 19th. 95 delegates at stake and this is an area where obviously Donald Trump feels like he is on very solid ground. Some of his advisers actually predicting to me that he could pull in as many as 90 of those delegates. And the map continues to look better for Trump going forward. A lot of East Coast primaries. Places where Trump's advisers think Cruz is going to have major problems.

Still, Carol, for anybody who thinks that the contested convention is the most exciting story or the place that they all want to end up in Cleveland, last night was a very good night, not just for Ted Cruz, but for them -- Carol.

COSTELLO: Yes, it was. Phil Mattingly, reporting live for us this morning. Thank you. With me now to talk about all of this, Bob Barr. He's a Ted Cruz

supporter and former Georgia congressman. I'm also joined by CNN senior political analyst and senior editor of the "Atlantic," Ron Brownstein. And Republican strategist Boris Epshteyn. He's a Trump supporter.

Welcome to all of you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good morning.

COSTELLO: Good morning. So, Boris, I'll start with you. Last night was a big blow for Mr. Trump. He needs 60 percent of the remaining delegates to get the nomination. Is it time for Trump to change his strategy?

BORIS EPSHTEYN, TRUMP SUPPORTER: No, it is not. It is time to stick to the original strategy, the strategy that's gotten him to this point. He's up by over 200 delegates and he does have a clear path. The only path that's feasible to the nomination out of all the other candidates. So what he needs to do is go back on message. Talk about making America great again. Talk about immigration, talk about national security, talk about the economy, and by doing that he's going to continue his strong move to the nomination.

Again, New York, the northeast states, Delaware, Rhode Island, Maryland, Pennsylvania, then going on to New Jersey and then California, are all states that look very good for Mr. Trump, and I predict he will get to that 1237. And if he doesn't between the time of the last primary and the convention, there are about 45 days, plenty of time to recruit some of those 150 delegates to be unbound to get you over that 1237 line.

COSTELLO: All right. So, Bob, let's talk about Ted Cruz. Because he faces tough odds, too, when it comes to the nomination. He needs 88 percent of the remaining delegates. So is it possible?

BOB BARR, TED CRUZ SUPPORTER: Well, it's certainly possible. But unlike Boris's candidate who refuses to follow the advice that Boris gave him which would be very good advice and that is stick to a positive substantive message, Mr. Trump is a candidate who constantly reverts back to his inner self and that is insulting and belittling opponents and anybody else that seems to differ with him.

Senator Cruz will continue to do what he's doing, in which paid very high dividends last night in Wisconsin. And that is to focus on a very, very well-organized ground game and also to stick to issues that poll after poll after poll indicates is what American voters want to hear. That is not insults. But rather solutions for the economic and foreign policy crises that are facing this country.

COSTELLO: OK. So we have rosy views from the candidates' supporters. So, Ron, let's talk about reality. Is a contested convention a sure thing now?

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Not a sure thing because of the point that Boris made that even if Mr. Trump falls short, he has the potential pulling together enough delegates at the end if he's very close. But it looks more likely. I mean, the big question, I think, Carol, from last night is whether this is a lasting reset of the race because we saw new patterns that we haven't seen before.

[09:10:04] Up until Wisconsin Ted Cruz had not won even a plurality of voters who are not evangelical Christians in any state with an exit poll including his home state of Texas. Well, he won them big last night and that's important because as you move to the coast, particularly this northeastern states, historically from the earlier stage of the race you'd say this would be very tough terrain for Ted Cruz because there are fewer of those evangelical Christians. It's a more secular, white collar, moderate suburban vote.

The question now is whether Ted Cruz's vote is essentially the never Trump vote and it's kind of transcended the views about him personally. If that's the new pattern he will have lots of opportunities in the remaining map. But again, we're going to have to see whether Wisconsin, was that one-time event or something more lasting?

COSTELLO: Well, let's talk about that never Trump vote, right? Because when you look at the exit polls in Wisconsin, four in 10 said they voted for Cruz because they're scare of Trump becoming the nominee.

So, Bob, I'll post that question to you. Did you want your candidate to win because of that?

BARR: A win is a win. And Senator Cruz's critics, particularly Mr. Trump, will find all sorts of ridiculous explanations for it. But the fact of the matter is that as we get closer and closer to the convention, to the eventual selection of a nominee at the Republican convention, people are taking a much harder look than they did earlier in these campaigns at the actual differences between Mr. Trump and Senator Cruz.

And what they are finding is that the lack of any real expertise or substantive ideas coming out of Mr. Trump or his campaign. And the continual reversion to personal attacks and insults really is not what they want to see in a nominee. And I think that will continue to mount as a problem for Mr. Trump.

COSTELLO: OK. So we'll see about that. So, Boris -- Boris, but 4 in 10 are afraid of a Trump presidency? Doesn't that bother you? That's disturbing, isn't it?

EPSHTEYN: Well, what I like is 6 and 10 are not. And hopefully we can enlarge on that number. So Donald Trump still does have a long time to show the country what he's all about. There are several months left -- more than seven months until the general. The Republican Party would do much better to coalesce behind him. He is the leader, he is the most likely nominee. And to focus on defeating Hillary Clinton, who's a very (INAUDIBLE) and hopefully will be even weaker because of her contest with Bernie Sanders and because of the ongoing investigation. As to what Bob said, let's not pretend that Ted Cruz is somebody with

a lot of experience. He's a freshman senator who hasn't been supported by anybody in the Senate for a long time. Now some are doing it while holding their nose. This isn't some giant, this is freshman senator who generally just throws bombs in the Senate and doesn't have any real ideas and the idea he does have change like on immigration and national security.

Donald Trump is not a politician. He's someone who's a successful businessman. Someone who can really grow this country and bring a breath of new fresh air to Washington, D.C. Something we haven't really had since Ronald Reagan.

COSTELLO: All right. So, Ron, let's talk reality now. So you have 4 in 10 afraid of a Trump presidency. You have Ted Cruz, you know, like a lot of people who are never Trump who are voted for in the state of Wisconsin I would assume. And also Ted Cruz has high unfavorability ratings. So are either of these candidates particularly strong in a general?

BROWNSTEIN: Well, they both face I think challenges in the general election when you look at the numbers today. But I think Trump faces even greater challenges based on today's polling and that's a real problem for him in trying to pursue the strategy of accumulating enough delegates from the unbound if he falls short in the pledged delegates. And the reason is, you know, if you look at it today, Donald Trump is facing the highest unfavorable ratings that we have seen in polling for a frontrunner at this point in the race. Particularly among the groups at the core of the modern Democratic coalition. 75 percent unfavorable among millennials, over 80 percent among non-white voters, over 80 percent among college white women.

And what that means, Carol, is that if you're an elected official there is not a lot of incentive right now to go toward Donald Trump unless you have because of -- you know, he won your state, you're a pledged delegate. Not a lot of unpledged delegates right now are kind of looking at him and saying, this is the guy who can lead us to victory in November.

As you say, Cruz's numbers aren't much better but they are better and I think that is a big head wind for Trump. To some extent he's got to solve his general election problem to help solve his problem in the primary.

COSTELLO: Interesting. I have to leave it there. Bob Barr, Ron Brownstein, Boris Epshteyn, thanks to all of you.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, Sanders wins big in Wisconsin. But the Bern better watch his back. Hillary Clinton unleashes her new plan to take down her Democratic rival.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Bernie Sanders tops in Wisconsin, beating out Clinton in six of the last seven contests. But the delegate math is still in Clinton's favor. And if Sanders wants to really make a dent, he needs a blowout win in New York state.

Both democratic candidates hitting the trail in Pennsylvania today. Two where polls show the front runner with a sizeable lead. And that's not the only obstacle facing Sanders. Clinton is unleashing a new campaign strategy on her opponent.

CNN's Jeff Zeleny has more on that. Good morning.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Hey, good morning, Carol. That 14 point victory for Bernie Sanders, such a big moment for him. But the reality here is, going forward here in this campaign, as they go to the New York primary, it's a whole new ballgame. And the Clinton campaign is waiting for Bernie Sanders more than ever before.

For the last several weeks and months, the Clinton campaign has been first, ignoring Bernie Sanders, and then dismissing Bernie Sanders. A new strategy is taking shape now, it's to disqualify him, and defeat him, in that order.

You are going to see this new strategy rolling out, in fact, you already are. This morning, Hillary Clinton doing a round of interviews, saying that she's not sure that he's qualified to be president. She'll be joining CNN next hour to talk about that and other things, no question.

But she also is taking aim at whether he is actually a democrat. If he's truly a member of the democratic party. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GLENN THRUSH, CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, POLITICO: When he puts his head on a pillow at night, do you think he goes to sleep, a democrat?

HILLARY CLINTON, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well I can't answer that, Glenn. Because he's a relatively new democrat. And, in fact, I'm not even sure he is one, he's running as one. So I don't know quite how to characterize him, I'll leave that to him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZELENY: Well we know how voters are characterizing him, and that is a winner, in some respects. But that is the beginning of this line of attack; is he really a democrat? And it's happening as closed primaries are coming up. That means only democrats can vote in these primaries, here.

But Bernie Sanders is having a little bit of fun of his own. He's talking about the super-delegates; those party officials, elected leaders who he is hoping will rally to his side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT) DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And I think that a lot of these superdelegates are going to be looking around them. And then are going to be saying, "which candidate has the momentum? Which candidate is ringing out huge numbers of people, and creating -- huge..."

(CHEERS)

SANDERS: "Which candidate can bring out large numbers of people?"

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZELENY: It's Bernie Sanders' favorite word on the campaign trail; "huge." Well he needs to get some huge wins, going forward. New York would be the good place to start that, Carol. So that's why these next two weeks, so fascinating here. Hillary Clinton never thought she'd be fighting for the New York primary. But she's fighting for it, and just look at the tabloids here this morning, you can see what this fight's going to be like.

COSTELLO: Oh, absolutely. It's going to be quite nasty. So will she go one step farther, since she's not sure if Bernie Sanders is a democrat? Will she one day say he's a socialist?

ZELENY: Well, I think that is what's next. Because that's what is implied there. But she may have to lead the voter to that conclusion. But look for her surrogates to start doing that. And they're trying to say, "look, he's unelectable, he's not a real democrat." But the voters out there are excited about his candidacy. That's one thing they're going to have to try and figure out how to do; how to extinguish that excitement.

COSTELLO: Jeff Zeleny, many thanks to you.

Next hour I'll be talking with a spokesperson for the Hillary Clinton campaign. Then at 11:15 a.m. Eastern time, Hillary Clinton will appear on CNN, during "AT THIS HOUR" with Berman and Bolduan.

Tension is at an all-time high between Clinton and Sanders, just as they prepare for a face-to-face debate on the CNN stage next Thursday night. The question for the Clinton camp is, will its new line of attack stop Sanders' momentum, heading into the New York primary?

So let's talk some more about that with the Director of the University of Virginia Center for Politics, Larry Sabato. Hi, Larry.

LARRY SABATO, DIRECTOR, UVA CENTER FOR POLITICS: Hey, Carol.

COSTELLO: Nice to have you here. I want you to take a look at this tweet from former Obama Advisor, Dan Pfeiffer. Here it is, "Things that don't matter; narrative, momentum, and expectations. Things that do matter; math, delegates, and organization." Is that really true?

SABATO: It's partly true. He's talking about winning the nomination. And so the factors he cites are much more important. But it's also true that at the end of this process, Hillary Clinton, who will be the nominee -- because the math pretty much projects that -- she has to reunify this party. And she's going to have to find ways to accommodate this large contingent of Sanders delegates, who will be at the convention.

Will she have to concede on policy issues? Will she have to include planks in the platform, she doesn't like? Will she have to find a Vice Presidential candidate who's completely acceptable to the Sanders crowd? These are all important questions.

COSTELLO: Interesting. So Sanders, he may have the momentum, but he has more to worry about than just Clinton's attacks on him. The New York Daily News -- a New York tabloid -- for example, it comes down hard on Sanders, two weeks before the New York primary. You see the headline there, "Bernie's Sandyhook Shame."

Inside there is a problematic interview, where Sanders is unable to articulate a plan to dismantle big banks. And I'm going to read part of that for you. So The Daily News interviewer asked Sanders, "How do you go about breaking up big banks?" And Sanders replies, "How you go about doing it is having legislation passed, or giving the authority to the secretary of treasury to determine, under Dodd-Frank, that these banks are a danger to the economy over the problem of too-big- to-fail."

The Daily News followed-up by asking, "But do you think that the Fed, now, has that authority?" To break up those big banks. Sanders replies, "Well, I don't know if the Fed had it, if the Fed has that power." And this is what Clinton had to say about that, just a few minutes ago, on MSNBC.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: Well, I think the interview raised a lot of really serious questions. And I look at it this way, the core of his campaign has been, break up the banks. And it didn't seem, in reading his answers, that he understood exactly how that would work, under Dodd-Frank. Exactly who would be responsible, what the criteria were. And that means you can't really help people, if you don't know how to do what you are campaigning on saying you want to do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: So is she right? Does this raise questions about Sanders?

SABATO: Well, Sanders is starting to get something that he didn't get a lot of for much of this campaign. It's called vetting. And the reason he wasn't vetted very thoroughly is because he was seen as a sure loser, almost as a gadfly, in the beginning. But the price of winning so many primaries and caucuses is, people are actually asking, "could he be president?" And, if president, "what are his real policies, beyond the slogans?"

So I think the Clinton campaign is smart to focus on that. And notice, Carol, as Jeff was just telling you in his reporting, most of the key primaries coming up are closed. There are going to be only democrats participating. And Hillary Clinton does very well in primaries where only democrats, and no independents, participate.

COSTELLO: Interesting. Larry Sabato, thanks for your insight, as always. Both Hillary Clinton, and Bernie Sanders will turn to the debate stage, as I said, next Thursday night in Brooklyn, right here on CNN. It will be moderated by Wolf Blitzer, starts at 9:00 p.m. eastern.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, the final results of the Wisconsin primary only tell part of the story. Exit polls reveal how fear played a key role among many republican voters.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)