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Clinton Laughs Off Sanders' "Ludicrous" Claims; Sanders Sweeps Delegates from Hillary in Wisconsin; GOP Contested Convention More Likely After Cruz Wisconsin Win. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired April 06, 2016 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[14:30:00] BARBARA LAWTON, FORMER WISCONSIN LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR & BERNIE SANDERS SUPPORTER: Many of those people feel that what we're living out now as we watch the hollowing out of the middle class is precisely the result of incremental politics and chewing around the edges of these issues.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: I hear you. You're right. He is on a roll with regard to these states recently. And so, you know, especially with a double-digit victory in Wisconsin, the headlines this morning should be a tad rosier than they are because a lot of attention has been given to the interview your candidate did with editorial board of the "New York Daily News," showing him having difficulty, clearly answering some of these questions about foreign and domestic policies, specifically, you know, he acknowledged that he wasn't sure exactly how he intended to break up the big banks, which has been the centerpiece of his wall street reform agenda. How would you explain such a lack of specifics in answers?

LAWTON: Well, having done a statewide campaign and not a presidential, I can tell you there is an occasion where you don't always have the greatest clarity you wish you had. But he has been very clear on those issues. If he had a bad day, let's get beyond it. I know New York is going to be a rough-and-tumble place, but he has talked --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: -- why not? If he knows what he's talking about why not be specific in the interview. New York is two weeks away?

LAWTON: I don't know what happened in that interview, but I know that he has been specific about what he plans to do with those banks and have the Treasury Department identify the banks and the insurance companies and the shadow banks that would be too big to fail and require a taxpayer bailout, and then work with the Federal Reserve to break them up with the authority of Dodd/Frank, and then move ahead and do that and break it up. So he's got a plan. He knows where the authority lies. I think that this is just a harbinger of what will come in the -- as we go forward in the New York race, that a headline that dismisses the positions he's already stated very clearly.

BALDWIN: In the same interview, Bernie Sanders defended gun manufacturers, in the wake of the lawsuit brought by the victims of Sandy Hook. And this is how Hillary Clinton responded to that just last hour.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST, NEW DAY: So difficult. And the core issue comes down to should gun manufacturers be liable for their products being used illegally. You essentially say yes. The Senator says, well, you would have to show me something more than that, there's some reason they should be liable. I get the emotion, but where's the reason behind holding gun manufacturers liable in a way no other corporation would be?

HILLARY CLINTON, (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE & FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, that's not true, Chris. In fact, under this legislation that Senator Sanders supported, they are the only industry in America that is not liable and accountable for what they do or fail to do. And let's remember why the NRA called this piece of legislation the most important gun vote in years. It's because cities like New York and states and other groups were coming together around legal challenges to the behavior of gun makers and sellers, trying to stem the epidemic of gun violence, and the NRA wanted to stop it in its tracks. And they were able to get people like Senator Sanders to do their bidding. I voted against it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Lieutenant Governor Lawton, Senator Sanders has been extremely progressive on so many issues but highly criticized by Democrats for this. I'm wondering if you think he should rethink his stance on this.

LAWTON: As I understand it, he has legislation proposed that would distinguish between the small venders to hunters in rural areas and the people who are really creating the problems with this. I think it's a misrepresentation of his position.

BALDWIN: I'll have to -- we'll look at the details because it is important and it could come up in the debate.

LAWTON: It is important.

BALDWIN: It is important.

The CNN debate is a couple days before the April 19th primary here in New York. You know, Senator Sanders grew up in Brooklyn. Hillary Clinton was a Senator in the state for eight years.

LAWTON: Yeah.

BALDWIN: Adopted home.

LAWTON: And it's a must-win state.

BALDWIN: It's a must-win state. And what do you think he needs to do on that debate stage to grab those voters?

LAWTON: Well, I think what he needs to do to grabs his voters is to do exactly what he did in Wisconsin, which is spent a lot of time, get his message out. And he did outspend -- he spent more time and spent more money in our state than Hillary Clinton. And when people heard his message and understood what his position and his vision is, they came to it. So he really needs to make that investment. It's a must- win state. But it comes with a mandate and a lot of energy behind it.

I want to get back to the issue of the Democratic Party. You know, when we look at what he's been able to do in bringing new voters, and especially young voters who don't really have a partisan identity yet, that's -- and who are making small contributions and giving him a huge edge in fund-raising without doing a single fundraiser, that's bringing real growth to the Democratic Party, and it needs to be embraced.

[14:35:32] BALDWIN: Barbara Lawton, thank you for your time from the --

LAWTON: Thank you.

BALDWIN: -- one of the supporters from Bernie Sanders.

Next, we'll talk to a member of the Clinton campaign. Who has the home-field advantage come New York's primary in two weeks? And what is their plan if Sanders scores big there?

Back after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:40:17] BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

You've seen the headline, Bernie Sanders grabbing a delegate sweep from Hillary Clinton, six wins in a row. With the Wisconsin primaries in the rear-view mirror and a hectic month lies ahead with serious delegates numbers waiting to be claimed. In the state of New York, for example, 247 delegates, all looking to be grabbed on that one day.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: Do you think that will mean you need super delegates, because the Sanders campaign essentially says that's dirty pool, the super delegates are an artificial help to you?

(LAUGHTER)

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS, (I), VERMONT & DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, you know, he knew what the rules were when he decided to run for president. Most importantly, I think we will reach whatever number is required. We're going to continue to acquire delegates and add to our total. I have more delegates than he does in a broader margin than President Obama had over me at this time in 2008.

If you go back and look at 2008, I had a string of great victories in the spring. I won New York. I won Pennsylvania. We were really on a very good winning streak. However, I did not end up with more delegates. I actually, by some measures, ended up with more popular vote, but it's delegates that count. And so I think let's keep focused on what the facts are here. I have a considerable lead in the popular vote and I have a considerable lead in the delegates.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

Joining me now Joel Benenson, chief strategist for the Hillary Clinton campaign and Democratic pollster and consultant.

Nice to see you, sir, once again

JOEL BENENSON, CHIEF STRATEGIST, HILLARY FOR AMERICA: Good to see you, Brooke. Thank you.

BALDWIN: We heard from Secretary Clinton. I know you are going to tell me, "Brooke, it's about the math and delegate count." Bernie Sanders momentum is not insignificant, six in a row.

BENENSON: Yeah.

BALDWIN: Your response to that?

BENENSON: You said a delegate sweep. Last night, he picked up net 10 delegates in a state about percent larger than Virginia, which when we won that primary we got 27 net delegates. Unfortunately, for Senator Sanders, the rules are clear, the currency of the nomination are winning delegates, which we have a commanding lead. Secretary Clinton just said it. You saw and showed it. He has a steep mountain to climb. I've been saying for weeks it's nearly insurmountable to overcome a 230 net delegate lead, especially when you're winning 10 at a time. It's not enough.

BALDWIN: Bernie Sanders said, if I win Wisconsin and if I win New York, then I will win the White House. Now, I can't do math like that on the fly, I don't know how correct that would be, but bottom line, people are starting this notion of a potential contested convention on the Democratic side, starting to percolate, A, how likely is that to happen and, B, what do you do if he wins New York some.

BENENSON: First of all, I think he's got to not just win states, he has to win every state by a landslide. Let's define winning for Senator Sanders according to what he would have to do.

BALDWIN: OK.

BENENSON: To make up the delegate gap he has. Win every state by landslides here on out. He won't do that. But let's - to your other question, Brooke --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: That's panic button if he wins New York.

BENENSON: No.

BALDWIN: No? BENENSON: Look, he won 10 delegates last night. Listen, I believe we're going to win New York. And I believe whether we net plus-20 delegates or h he picks up, you know -- gets us close to even it's not going to matter. He's going to have to do that. What he did last night, he won with 57 percent of the vote and netted 10 delegates. He has to win 58 percent of the delegates going forward. He's not doing that. And that's just the reality.

As for the convention, look, I think Secretary Clinton is within about 600 delegates of what it takes to get to a majority. He needs 1300. He needs to win two out of every three going forward, including super delegates. And as Hillary pointed out, it's very much.

By the way --

BALDWIN: Yes.

BENENSON: -- Barack Obama didn't have a majority of pledged delegates and won with super delegates. Senator Sanders' top campaign consultant, Tad Devine, knows his first presidential nominee, Walter Mondale, had to have pledged delegates. They know how you win this. They haven't succeeded.

BALDWIN: Bigger picture, we saw Van Jones and he had said, you know, there's a civil war afoot within the Democratic Party. And watching your eyes, I don't know if you agree with that.

(LAUGHTER)

But, you know, I think what made me look up when I was watching Chris interview Secretary Clinton was when she laughed off Jeff Weaver, the Sanders' camp, last night, talking about how she is destroying the Democratic Party. If you have missed this, here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEFF WEAVER, BERNIE SANDERS CAMPAIGN MANAGER: You know, the Senator has tried to run an issue-oriented campaign. Obviously, the contrast has become sharper of late. We're fully prepared to engage in that environment if they want to. But this is what I would say to them, which is, you know, don't destroy the Democratic Party to satisfy the secretary's ambitions to become president of the United States. Right? We want to have a party at the end so we can unify. Let's have a tough debate. Let's talk about the issues. There are sharp contrasts between the two. But let's not, you know, denigrate other people's supporters and tear the party apart.

(LAUGHTER)

[14:45:10] CUOMO: Yours response to that idea?

CLINTON: Well, I mean, it's just ludicrous on the face of it. You know, I have been campaigning for Democrats, fundraising for Democrats, recruiting Democrats to run and win for a really long time. I think about 40 years. And Senator Sanders, by his own admission, has never even been a Democrat. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Care to add to that?

BENENSON: Look, we have praised Senator Sanders for the enthusiasm he's generated on the stump. We've generated enthusiasm at the ballot box. That's why we've had 2.4 million voters, built a much more diverse coalition of voters, the kind of coalition Democrats need to win. We want Democrats to be part of this campaign when, if Hillary Clinton becomes the nominee, as I believe she will. She has been helping raise money for Democrats up and down the line right now. Senator Sanders and his campaign criticized her for that recently. I think everybody knows that if we win the presidency, which we must do in this country, we will need to elect Democrats up and down the line. Secretary Clinton is the one candidate in this race who has been helping raise money to help them do that. I think the suggestion she's dividing the party is ludicrous.

BALDWIN: Joel Benenson, see you at the CNN debate in Brooklyn in a couple weeks.

BENENSON: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Thank you, sir.

A reminder -- here we go -- Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders will face off for that presidential Democratic debate from Brooklyn, New York, next thursday, April 14th, here on CNN.

Coming up next, on the Republican side, after last night's Ted Cruz victory in Wisconsin, a delegate battle at the Republican convention seems increasingly likely. What exactly would a contested convention look like and who would hold the advantage? We'll discuss that, coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:51:32] BALDWIN: Ted Cruz just held his first public event since his stunning victory in Wisconsin over Republican front runner. Donald Trump. Cruz is taking the battle to Trump's home state of New York. While many Republicans believe a contested Republican convention is all but assured at this point.

Here is what Senator Cruz had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED CRUZ, (R), TEXAS & PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If you look at the election results last night, we won across the state, we won women, we won me we won young people, we won every income group. What we saw, is we saw Republicans come together and unite, stand united. And that's really what this election is all about. It is about unity. If we come together, we're going to win. If we remain divided we will not.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BALDWIN: But, you know, we were just talking to folks on both sides, both parties, and they know it's about the delegate math not momentum. Cruz trails Trump by 236 delegates. Trump's path to that magic number 1237, is needed to clinch the nomination, looking less likely. The electoral map is shrinking and shrinking fast. Trump has little margin for error in the Republican contest.

Let's bring in CNN's delegate analyst, Mike Shields.

Mike, nice to see you.

MIKE SHIELDS, CNN DELEGATE ANALYST: Nice to see you.

BALDWIN: All right, with Wisconsin in the rear view and looking ahead to the states in the future, is this a done deal on the Republican side, a contested convention or not necessarily?

SHIELDS: Well, it's not mathematically a done deal. And certainly Donald Trump, the front runner, could still, you know, there's five winner take all states left. There's California, is a huge number of delegates, 172, New York, has 95, and so there's still some opportunities for him to really mount huge delegate counts, but if you look at the percentages he has to win, it's very unlikely. I think both the Trump campaign and the Cruz campaign are now working two campaigns, talking to voters and they're working to talk to delegates. I think they both recognize we're likely now to head to a contested convention based on the math and the way that Donald Trump would have to perform going on here on out.

BALDWIN: I think RNC folks are sort of functioning in that same notion as well. I understand RNC and veteran Republican operatives held a meeting Tuesday afternoon. They were talking about, from my understanding, you know, bound delegates and how the party will organize, the timing of multiple rounds of ballots. What do you think RNC officials should be doing behind the scenes to get prepared?

SHIELDS: They are getting ready. The RNC has the administrative role. The delegates make the decision and will choose who the nominee is. The delegate will set the rules for the convention and will decide which names are placed in nomination at the convention. That's up to the delegates. What the RNC has to do is provide an open and transparent process and make sure the delegates are able to carry out their functions, and that's what they're going to do. I think they really benefit from having a lot of expertise with the chairman of the RNC and the staff they have there to really get ready for this.

BALDWIN: When you talk about strategy, Mike, we keep hearing that the Ted Cruz camp has really strong ground game on recruiting these delegates. Tell me how that works, and why he, perhaps, seems to be at the advantage versus the Donald Trump camp.

SHIELDS: He has sort of two advantages, although I will say the Trump campaign is gearing up, and waging on this fight. It remains to be seen if they can sort of catch up. But I think there's two inherent advantages that Cruz had. First, he built his ground game up in the campaign from the very beginning. I think most people would acknowledge that he had one of the best ground games of any of the 17 candidates that originally started running for president. And that really translates very well now that you're going to delegate-by- delegate fights at the local level, talking to these delegates about who they want to vote for, for president, when they get to the convention.

The other sort of built-in advantage he has, a lot of these delegates are party regulars, people at the local county level and state level who have been working in the Tea Party and Republican party politics for a long time, and some of them are predisposed to be with Cruz because that's where they were in the first place, whereas, Trump didn't really have any inroads in the local party infrastructure until now.

[14:55:40] BALDWIN: To be continued.

Mike Shields, thank you so much. Our delegate analyst.

And it is all eyes on New York for both parties. Donald Trump and Ted Cruz both holding events in the same state today. Will Donald Trump harness some home-state momentum coming off a loss last night in Wisconsin?

Keep it here. You're watching CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)