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Presidential Race Heating Up. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired April 06, 2016 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:15]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: And we continue on, hour two. Great to be with you on this Wednesday. I'm Brooke Baldwin. You're watching CNN.

An already unprecedented presidential election has just taken one huge step forward, an event the nation has not seen in generations, a contested party convention. The likelihood of that rose after Republican front-runner Donald Trump suffered a double-digit defeat in the Wisconsin primary.

Senator Ted Cruz beat Trump. You see the numbers there, 48 percent to 35. The Cruz victory now forces Trump to rack up even bigger wins if he wants to clinch the nomination before the convention in Cleveland in July.

Now look at this with me. Trump would have to get 60 percent of the delegates in the remaining primaries and caucuses to hit that number of 1,237 delegates. Now, all of this makes the stakes higher for the primary here in the state of New York that is April 19 with its 95 delegates. And that is where Ted Cruz is today, specifically in the borough of the Bronx.

He responded to Trump's claim that Cruz was -- quote, unquote -- "a Trojan horse" and a pawn of Republican Party bosses.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, you know, Donald can always be counted on to take the high road and to demonstrate class.

If he wants to engage in insults, he's welcome to do so. He gets very angry when the voters reject him. He has now lost in four states in a row. He lost a landslide election in Utah. He lost all six delegates that were elected in Colorado. He lost badly in North Dakota, and yesterday in Wisconsin, a state that he bragged the day before, the day before yesterday, Donald Trump promised a -- quote -- "big victory in Wisconsin," and not only did he not get a big victory, but the men and women of Wisconsin resoundingly rejected his campaign.

And the reason is simple. Donald has no solutions to the problems we're facing. He likes to yell and scream and insult and curse, and his statement last night was consistent with that. But he has no real solutions to bringing jobs back to America. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So what are Trump's next steps?

CNN's Sara Murray is following the front-runner. She's live in Bethpage, New York.

So, we know he has tweeted it's nice to be back home, hoping that that will help him going into the primary in a week-and-a-half. I hear, what, he's planning to give more speeches? What's on the docket for Mr. Trump?

SARA MURRAY, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Brooke.

I think you're starting to see a realization within the Trump campaign and some of his allies that he may need an added dose of discipline if he wants to actually be able to get over this hurdle to get 1,237 delegates and avoid a floor fight.

We know that Donald Trump is working on a series of policy speeches that should be coming in the next couple of weeks dealing with issues like education, Well, rebuilding the military, so it will be interesting to see, you know, just how prepared those remarks are when he rolls them out.

I think the other thing that they're really going to be focused on is right here in New York. This is Donald Trump's hometown and there's a new poll out from Monmouth University that shows he does have a hometown edge. He leads with Republican primary voters here by a huge margin, 52 percent. That's compared to 25 percent for John Kasich and 17 percent for Ted Cruz.

I think what the Trump campaign is really focused on are these big delegate prizes in places like New York, places like California, places they really want to win in order to avoid what you were just talking about, a floor fight in Cleveland.

BALDWIN: Sara Murray, thank you very much.

On that, joining me now, I have chief political correspondent Dana Bash here with me in New York, CNN national political reporter Maeve Reston, and Matt Flegenheimer reporter for "The New York Times."

Dana Bash, to you, on this notion of the New York primary mattering so, so much, I'm reading, people are saying it's been decades since it was so totally pertinent to clinching the nomination.

DANA BASH, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Right, for lots of reason, first of all, just because it's usually so late in the calendar, which it's hard to believe we are pretty late in the calendar. In recent history, we have a presumptive nominee by now.

That's one, but, two, you know, New York, you don't think of it as a place where Republican candidates are decided, especially in modern times, and it actually is an interesting place because it is a blue state traditionally and it's going to make it even more difficult.

I have been talking to some strategists, trying to figure out exactly where and how the best campaigns are to be run and messages are to be run to attract New York Republicans which are at least down here, not in Upstate, quite different from others.

[15:05:00]

BALDWIN: I think also, Matt, to you, on Ted Cruz, he was asked about the New York values, you know, comment he had made once upon a time and it seemed to me he was really doubling down on that. I'm wondering if that was a smart move, considering, you know, he needs those votes come April 19, and I'm not so sure how that's going to fly with New Yorkers.

MATT FLEGENHEIMER, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": yes. I mean, the distinction he's tried to make is really to say that New York values as he defined it was the policies of liberal politicians Bill de Blasio, Andrew Cuomo, folks who also, he notes, in a lot of cases have been recipients of donations from Donald Trump over the years, Andrew Cuomo, Eliot Spitzer, Anthony Weiner, others in the city, who are certainly left-leaning.

He's tried to make that distinction between the city and the Republican votes he's seeking and the sort of classic liberal policies that you might associate with a place like New York.

BALDWIN: Maeve, you saw the Monmouth poll. Guys, let's throw it again. Donald Trump, I don't know if we have even seen a huge number for him, 52 percent, I want to say off the top of my head, Kasich actually in second place, and then Cruz, you know, in the end -- and Cruz was asked about that, and he said, listen, I was behind 10 points in Wisconsin and look at what I did last night.

To his point polls, yes, I know polls don't always matter, but, Maeve, give me some perspective. How huge is that for Trump and on the flip side how not so great is that for Cruz in New York?

MAEVE RESTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, right now, the momentum game is so important for Ted Cruz. We saw, you know, the anti-Trump forces come in and really help him in Wisconsin last night, and those numbers don't look good for him.

So, you know, we have always known that Trump was going to be entering more favorable terrain for his campaign and, really, he needs that right now. We know he is way behind Ted Cruz in the delegate game, got Colorado coming up this weekend. There's a question as to whether Trump's campaign is even going to be a presence out there, and it's just a really difficult time for Trump, particularly after last night.

So, you know, Trump could have a moment here if he figures out how to run a more disciplined operation, where he can kind of right the ship a little bit as he heads into New York and we will see what happens.

BASH: That's really a key, what Maeve was talking about. The terrain is so much better for Donald Trump and even... BALDWIN: Moving ahead, not just in New York.

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: Moving ahead, New York, but moving ahead, I have a list here, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Connecticut, Delaware, even Rhode Island, in theory, even strategists who I'm talking to who are helping to craft the never Trump movement say last night was -- one of the reasons why last night in Wisconsin was so critical is because they knew that after that, it would be even harder to stop Trump.

So on the one hand, it's favorable for him. On the other hand, it's incumbent on Trump not to squander that and to figure out, as Maeve said, how to right the ship and use the new people who he has been bringing in to try to maybe, maybe have a little bit of a more traditional campaign. It's hard to have a less traditional campaign than he's had.

BALDWIN: Right.

We have heard and we have talked about how the Cruz camp has really been organized on the ground, maybe outmaneuvering especially when it comes delegates vs Trump. But at the end of the day, I know Maeve talks about momentum, but isn't it about the math?

BASH: Yes. But they're intertwined. Right.

For example, last night, Ted Cruz was doing well even before Donald Trump did not have a great week, but it certainly didn't hurt Ted Cruz to move forward with the kind of momentum into Wisconsin and it helped him with the math, because Donald Trump, not only lost big, he lost with the math. Only got three delegates last night. That matters.

Going forward in all of these states, there are there are complicated ways to decide how many delegates each candidate gets, especially here in New York. The momentum in all of the pockets and all of the congressional districts that are going to be feeding the delegates into the whole state total, that matters.

BALDWIN: Matt, here's what I want to know from you, as we have been talking about Ted Cruz responding to Donald Trump's statement from last night where essentially in the end he says -- he goes back to the lying Ted Cruz bit, and he said Ted Cruz is worse than a puppet. He's a Trojan horse being used by the party bosses attempting to steal the nomination from Mr. Trump.

Do you think that Mr. Trump's campaign is sort of planting the seeds, like this could be a future narrative from the Trump camp essentially saying it was lying Ted, to quote him, who's stealing this from us?

FLEGENHEIMER: Yes. I think you have seen this playbook from Trump before. He's often tried to paint opponents as being sort of tools of the establishment. It's a tougher case to make against somebody like Ted Cruz, who has sort of made a career in his own way of railing against what he calls the Washington cartel. You saw him today and I think he's been consistent on this try to

really stay above the fray, say that Donald lashes out when he's losing. I think that's the message you are going to hear from him consistently. But there's no question that Donald Trump is trying to make lying Ted stick.

[15:10:03]

Maeve, John Kasich, we have to talk about John Kasich. I know he's number two in that Monmouth poll ahead for New York. And you laugh, but what does he do moving forward here?

RESTON: Well, I think, you know, that's what Dana was just talking about.

It's all an organization game right now. The fact that we got through last night and it looks like we are almost certainly headed to a contested convention, we know that Kasich has good people on his team. We know that any number of possible things could happen at the convention, and so that's what they're really banking on going forward, is that this is going to turn into a huge delegate fight and that they're going to be very well-organized going there.

He has got a lot of advisers who were involved in the '76 convention, as actually all the campaigns do now, to make sure they know what's happening if history repeats itself. And that is his last best hope here, but I don't think any of us can rule out the possibility that something completely wild could happen and the fact that John Kasich is actually running gives him a shot there.

BALDWIN: Something completely wild.

BASH: In 2016?

Maeve, I don't even know where you get that idea. It's so crazy.

(LAUGHTER)

BASH: But to the point, this new Monmouth poll that you have been talking about, it goes through the three remaining Republican candidates who best would beat Hillary Clinton, and more importantly perhaps, which has the Republicans who will stick with them the most against the Democrat, and that's John Kasich.

He gets like 81 percent of Republicans who are going to vote for him, would stick with him in the general election, and that is the kind of argument that they're going to try to collect in several states going forward, camp Kasich, so when they get to the convention, and it is a complete chaotic mess, if that happens, then they can turn to all the delegates and say, see? What's your goal here? You want to win in November? I'm your guy.

BALDWIN: Incredible.

I'm not letting go of you. You're sticking around for a segment a little later. Dana Bash, thank you. Maeve, thank you. Matt, thank you so much.

Coming up next, despite a double-digit win in Wisconsin on the Democrat side, Bernie Sanders, he's on the defensive today for what he did not say when asked for specifics on policy, all of this as his campaign manager issuing a stern message to the Clinton campaign.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEFF WEAVER, BERNIE SANDERS CAMPAIGN MANAGER: This is what I would say to them, which is, you know, don't destroy the Democratic Party to satisfy the secretary's ambitions to become the secretary of the United States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: You will hear Hillary Clinton's response to that just moments ago on a CNN one-on-one live interview here.

Also, what exactly might a contested convention look like? We will take you inside the CNN virtual studio.

And, later, actress comedienne Amy Schumer putting "Glamour" magazine on notice for putting her in their plus-sized issue, Schumer for her part not laughing whatsoever. We're going to have a chat about that coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:17:00]

BALDWIN: Hillary Clinton laughing off a question here on CNN hours after a loss to Bernie Sanders, this one in Wisconsin, making seven Sanders victories out of the last eight contests. But Secretary Clinton says she's not sweating it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Do you think that that will mean that you will need superdelegates, because the Sanders campaign essentially says that's dirty pool, the superdelegates are an artificial help to you?

(LAUGHTER)

HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, you know, he knew what the rules were when he decided to run for president, but, most importantly, I think we will reach whatever number is required. We're going to continue to acquire delegates and add to our total.

I have more delegates than he does in a broader margin than President Obama had over me at this time in 2008. If you go back and look at 2008, I had a string of great victories in the spring. I won New York, I won Pennsylvania. We were really on a very good winning streak.

However, I did not end up with more delegates. I actually, by some measures, ended up with more popular vote, but it's delegates that count. And so I think let's keep focused on what the facts are here. I have a really considerable lead in the popular vote, and I have a considerable lead in the delegates.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So, with me now, Robert Zimmerman, Democratic strategist and Hillary Clinton supporter and back with us Clay Aiken, former Democratic candidate for Congress in North Carolina who supports Bernie Sanders.

Welcome to both of you.

ROBERT ZIMMERMAN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Good to be with you.

BALDWIN: Robert, let me just turn to you. I just had Joel Benenson from the Hillary Clinton camp on last hour and he echoed was what Secretary Clinton was saying, as far as that's great that he's won -- not so great, but that Bernie Sanders has won the last six, but it's all in the math and the delegates and they're feeling pretty confident.

But at the same time, the momentum is not insignificant. Would you agree?

ZIMMERMAN: Here's the point. I don't really believe, two days from now, even two weeks from now, New Yorkers are going to talk about the Wisconsin primary. Wisconsin may influence Wyoming.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: What about the last six?

ZIMMERMAN: Actually, as a matter of fact, not even the last six. Honestly, if you think New Yorkers will let Alaska or Wisconsin or Wyoming tell them how to vote, I can get you a great deal on a bridge in Brooklyn with your name on it. OK?

New Yorkers are very independent. They will make their decisions on their own and the merits.

BALDWIN: Clay, what do you think?

CLAY AIKEN, BERNIE SANDERS SUPPORTER: Well, listen, I have to say first of all that I don't speak for the Sanders campaign, because today I'm a little mixed. I think there's some points that both sides are making that I agree with.

BALDWIN: Why are you feeling mixed, Clay?

(CROSSTALK)

AIKEN: I mean, I certainly think the interview in "The Daily News" today showed a few weaknesses, showed a few flaws.

I think Bernie Sanders supporters on the other hand support him in large part because he's honest. And the Bernie Sanders supporters that I have talked to today are thrilled with that. That said, I do think, I do believe that this momentum argument does have a place.

I mean, the people in these states that have voted later like Wisconsin, like Idaho, like Utah, have had longer to look at the records of these two candidates. They have had longer to decide who they want to vote on and the trend recently has been that people are voting in favor of Senator Sanders.

[15:20:08]

And so I think that that really has to take its place in people's decision-making process. I still believe -- I do believe that the superdelegates should not make the decision and I think that the popular vote should be -- the pledged delegates should be the one to make the decision.

But people need to take a hard look at the fact that those folks who have had longer to look at these candidates are siding with Senator Sanders more.

BALDWIN: You brought up the "New York Daily News" point, and I think that's an important one to bring up.

Senator Sanders, he does this interview with the editorial board of "The New York Daily News" and he's having a tough time being specific on some of the questions with regard to policies. Particularly, one of the centerpieces of his campaign, Wall Street reform, breaking up the big banks, he doesn't have a specific answer on that, which could be troubling and has been, you know, capitalized upon by the Clinton camp.

Clay, is that the reason for your mixedness today on Senator Sanders?

AIKEN: Yes, it is. It is a little bit. And I have to -- like I said, I'm not with the campaign, so I don't speak for them, but as someone who sat in editorial board interviews myself, sometimes they can be -- they're quite tough, as they should be.

I know Senators Sanders...

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: How do you clean that up?

AIKEN: ... with more specifics.

Well, he's come out today with some more specifics. But, you know, my communications director would have had a heart attack if I had said things like, I'm not qualified to give advice to the Israeli army.

ZIMMERMAN: You know, Clay, I think, first of all, I'm a great admirer of your career as a performer, and certainly you were a great Democratic candidate for Congress. I hope you do it again.

And I think your open-mindedness is really a fair and important point, because it's not just this "Daily News" interview which is just the most recent indication of Senator Sanders not having specifics to put his plans in action. You have leading economic progressives like Paul Krugman taking Senator Sanders to task for this. Fareed Zakaria did a column saying that the Republicans look more responsible than Bernie Sanders on his plans.

And then you Planned Parenthood, the Human Rights Campaign. You have certainly the Black and Hispanic congressional caucuses all taking him to task for not having specifics to implement his agenda. And I think the real issue here is not just the rhetoric, not just the ideals that we all share, but how effective you're going to be at putting those dreams into realty. And I think there's a real important debate to be had.

AIKEN: Well, at the end of the day...

ZIMMERMAN: I think the CNN debate is going to reflect that. And I think it's also going to be important to debate issues like gun safety and the fact that...

(CROSSTALK)

ZIMMERMAN: Yes. Go ahead.

AIKEN: Senator Sanders did come out later today with some more specifics, so we have to -- I have to -- as a supporter of his, I certainly have to give him the right to have a bad day, to have a tough moment in an endorsement campaign.

However, as we see, more and more people consistently are supporting his north star -- and that's what I call it, the fact that his dreams and his goals for this country at the end of the day are more progressive than Secretary Clinton's have been.

And I think that it's really important, it's very important to remember that these people are voting en masse. He's certainly got a very uphill climb in the delegate count right now. I will admit that. But even though he has an uphill climb, his supporters are not leaving him and Secretary Clinton needs to recognize this.

BALDWIN: Let me jump in, because I think on Wall Street -- and then thank you for mentioning -- you mentioning the CNN debate. This is just days before in Brooklyn, the day before the all-important New York primary April 19.

And we know that stop in Brooklyn is just a couple of subway stops away from Wall Street. And I have to imagine, on the flip side, certainly Hillary Clinton has been criticized over ties with Wall Street, speeches, not releasing transcripts, et cetera. And I'm wondering if the theme of Wall Street on both sides looms large at the debate.

And, so, Robert, how does Hillary Clinton, how does she overcome that?

ZIMMERMAN: Well, first of all, what the bigger issue is the personal attacks that Senator Sanders is accusing Hillary Clinton of without any substantiation on her record.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Destroying the party, you mean?

ZIMMERMAN: Well, one, that's -- the absurd charge she's destroying the party, which is apparently from Bernie Sanders, who refuses even to be a Democrat.

But the bigger issue is, when it comes to standing up to Wall Street, Hillary Clinton, let's face it, as a New York senator, her largest industry in her state is Wall Street. And she took Wall Street head on before 2008 on executive compensation, on regulatory practices and procedures, so she has really been a champion of that issue.

Likewise, the attack by Senator Sanders saying that she was somehow compromised by the oil and gas industry, when he as well receives support from oil and gas industry employees. I mean, we have to move away from the personal attacks.

Clay, if Senator Sanders has specific issues, pieces of legislation where he feels Senator Clinton has not been up front, he should say so. I think there's an important debate to be had about legislation. But in New York, we're going to talk about Wall Street. We're also going to talk about gun safety and the fact that Senator Sanders still supports gun manufacturers and won't even support Sandy Hook victims having their day in court holding gun manufacturers accountable.

That's a major issue in our state and in the country.

BALDWIN: Clay, I want you to respond. Then we got to go.

AIKEN: Well, listen, at the end -- again, another point where I sort of waffle, because I don't think that Hillary Clinton is separating the party. I don't think that she's splitting the party. And I think that was an irresponsible line from the Sanders campaign.

[15:25:00]

AIKEN: That said, this debate on -- this debate and this "New York Daily News" article or endorsement interview are going to really have most of their impact in New York.

And I think that the debate and all of the discussion for the next week is really going to be focused on New York. And, of course, Robert Zimmerman does have a point there that the debate on Wall Street and the issues that are being talked about in this "New York Daily News" endorsement really have an effect on New York voters.

So, if Senator Sanders wants to win in New York, and he absolutely must in order to continue his climb, then he's really going to have to pay attention to New York voters this week. So, this endorsement interview probably won't play too much outside of New York, I don't believe, but it's going to have the attention of New York voters, and I think that's important.

BALDWIN: Clay Aiken, Robert Zimmerman, thank you both so much.

ZIMMERMAN: Thank you.

BALDWIN: We will be talking a lot about New York, obviously, in the coming week-and-a-half, indeed.

Do not miss Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders facing off in that Democratic presidential debate live from Brooklyn, New York. It is next Thursday night April 14, 9:00 Eastern, only here on CNN.

Coming up next, as for the Republicans, the Cruz campaign is hoping she will be the next first lady. But until now, Heidi Cruz has spent much of her time on the trail fending off attacks from Donald Trump -- why some say Senator Cruz's wife stepping back into the spotlight is a very strategic move.

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