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Cruz and Sanders Win Wisconsin Primaries; Trump Far Behind Cruz in Wisconsin Primary; Wisconsin Win "Is a Turning Point" for Cruz; Sanders Touts Momentum After Wisconsin Win; Clinton Focusing on New York Primary on April 19; Trump Blames Right Wing Radio for Loss; Sanders: "We Can Change the Status Quo"; Cruz Raised $2 Million on Tuesday Alone; Kasich Came in Last in Republican Wisconsin Race; Sanders: Clinton is "Getting a Little Nervous"; Sanders Seeks Momentum After Wisconsin Win; Every Delegate Counts in Democratic Presidential Race; Cruz's Win Complicates Trump's Delegate Drive; Obama Question Trump and Cruz on Foreign Policy. Aired 2-3a ET
Aired April 06, 2016 - 02:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[2:00:00] ISHA SESAY, ANCHOR, CNN: Hello and welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world I'M, Isha Sesay.
JOHN VAUSE, ANCHOR, CNN; And I'm John Vause. Great to have you will us. It's 11 p.m. here in Los Angeles, welcome to the Late Show, 1 a.m. in Wisconsin.
SESAY: And that's were right now supporters of Republican Presidential Candidate, Ted Cruz are celebrating. CNN projects the Texas Senator has won his parties primary there.
VAUSE: He has that 48 percent of the vote, compared to Trumps 35 percent, a big 13 point lead. In the national delegate count Donald Trump still in the lead with 743, Cruz has 510. The magic number there --
(EMERGENCY ALERT TEST)
SESAY: So let's face it stinging defeat at the hands of Ted Cruz for a man who's built a narrative of being a winner of being a winner throughout this campaign. It wasn't to be on this occasion. His campaign put out a statement. It is eye watering stuff. Leads read some of it. You see in there, "Ted Cruz is worse than a puppet -- he is a Trojan horse being used by the party bosses attempting to steal the nomination from Mr. Trump." Some familiar themes there. John, let me start with you. Your thoughts on the statement and Donald Trump's loss.
JOHN THOMAS, REPUBLICAN CONSULTANT: Well, look, Donald Trump has to deflect from there loss, you're right. The fundamental premise of his candidates is he's a winner. He's going to make America a winner because he's a winner. We're going to be so tired of winner. But he didn't win tonight and that was a huge problem. This is the first time we saw the anti-Trump forces coalesce. If they couldn't stop him here in Wisconsin, Trump would inevitably by the nominee. So this is a big win. His attempt to spin the night was basically saying, "Listen Republican electorate, I'm the only anti-establishment candidate in this race." That' what he was trying to portray.
VAUSE: Ted Cruz seems to be the establishment guy and Donald Trump is doing his best to paint him as such. So Dave, so tonight did Ted Cruz beat Donald Trump or did the other Trump beat Donald Trump beat Donald Trump.
DAVE JACOBSON, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: All of the above. I mean this wasn't just a turning point. This was a game changing opportunity for Ted Cruz. This was a lifeline opportunity for him. It gave him the momentum that he needs to create an argument moving forward, that he is electable. He could cut into Donald Trump's lead. He can prevent him from getting that critical 1237 number. I think moreover I think it's a vindication for GOP establishment in Washington and also leaders within the GOP like Governor Scott Walker who's just endorsed Ted Cruz a week before the election. It was a decisive endorsement that led to this commanding victory. I also think it's going to deflates Donald Trump's narrative that he's invincible. This is a guy who's got growing problems with women voters, with now moderate working class Republicans, and we saw this tonight in Wisconsin.
THOMAS: Here's what's remarkable about the exit polling. Tonight it's not so much the story coming out tonight for Trump. It's not that his support was eroded and that his supporters left. He actually did OK with the people who said he liked him. He didn't lose them. The story tonight is that it's not that Donald Trump is losing support, it's that Ted is growing and Donald Trump's not.
SESAY: I've to ask, because we brought up the statement that the Trump campaign put out. He makes further assertions of some inappropriate action on the part of the Cruz campaign and the super PAC. is there any truth to that?
JACOBSON: He says the legal --
THOMAS: Yes, you're legally not allowed to coordinate the independent groups in the campaigns, no. That is false. There is to date, there's not a shred of evidence to prove that. And I can just tell you as a practitioner, where better than that. We do not do that, and at that level you just don't see those kinds of things happen.
VAUSE: OK, we'll take your word on that. Let's look at the delegate count. Because this is what is all-important here after tonight, 1237 is the majority which is needed. If there is a winner tonight it's the open convention, because that now seems more likely than it ever did before. So it's now really hard for Donald Trump to get to 1237.it still almost impossible for Ted Cruz to get to that number. So what are we heading for here? We're heading to this convention where in a way Ted Cruz is the Trojan horse. And then the party then can say, "Ok, well let's send this over to the convention and nominate Paul Ryan, the Speaker of the House.
[2:05:16] THOMAS: So there are two difference kinds of conventions we need to look for. There's a contested convention in which it goes to a first ballot or second ballot, third ballot and could be someone of the existing field and the delegates kind of organically decide the nominee is. And then there's the brokered convention.and that's when basically you get to a convention in the party elders, whether it's special interest or the Washington elite and they'll pull -- plucking somebody out of thin air, like a Paul Ryan. And we might see that scenario. It will be exciting whatever scenario it is.
SESAY: For democrats it must seem like Christmas has come early.
JACOBSON: indeed, I mean look the Republican Party is ripping apart at it seams, and this is great for Democrats. We're having a debate about substance not so much about personal attacks, and here you have these two extremes. You've got the Cruz, the Donald Trump, and then you got the John Kasich on the other end. And these folks are doing everything they can to create the chaos narrative and this continued sort of bloodbath. It's great for Democrats. I think it's highly unlikely that were going to have a contested convention. Whereas Republicans you never know what is going to happen at this convention. The one thing we know in this election is to expect the unexpected.
THOMAS: It's completely opposite. Normally look -- Republicans get in line in our primaries. We get behind who we should. Who's owed the position? It's Democrats, they like to fall in love, but right now they don't want -- the party establishment says get in line behind Hillary Clinton. So they are not willing to do that.
SESAY: Let's look forward and look at the races that lie ahead. On the GOP side, of course, the big focus on New York. What does Donald Trump do now going forward? What are the lessons to be taken from Wisconsin? How does he pivot? How does he change the way he runs this race?
VAUSE: Can he change?
SESAY: Can he change?
THOMAS: Well, he's got a potentially bad two weeks ahead of him. Because this story is going to be from tonight. And that's going to be story saying, "Is this the night that Donald Trump started to implode?" And so Donald Trump has to either figure how to flip that narrative or hang in there until New York. Winn decisively. When were 50 percent and claim all of the delegates out of New York. He'll probably will win New York. This is coming to California and that's where the gloves come off.
JACOBSON: If I can jump in real quick.
(EMERGENCY ALERT TEST)
JACOBSON: Extraordinarily unlikely, but I do think, look he's got the wind at his back. He's 17 of the last eight contests. He continues to out fund raise her by extraordinary amounts of money. I think $14 million this last month. He's out fund raised her the last three months. And look, he keeps winning. He needs to win consecutively and decisively. He's also close the gap in big cities like New York. A year ago he was behind 50 points. He's close the gap to now 10 points.
VAUSE: Go ahead.
THOMAS: Here's Sanders' fundamental issue. Sanders has a lock on the white liberal vote. No question about it. Time and time again --
VAUSE: Basket waving to the professional group.
THOMAS: But unless he can start to change that demographic arc and show that he can win African-American support in a state like Pennsylvania and California, and when over Latinos, I just don't see it.
SESAY: so let me ask you this for Hillary Clinton, seeing that he has won six of the last seven. What does she do now as we approach New York? Does she have to shift in focus her attention on Sanders?
JACOBSON: We saw that today. She took the gloves off and she's already starting to hit him on issues like foreign policy, on issues like gun safety, gun-control laws. I think she's going to do everything that she can to beat him in New York. She's got to engage in sort of the brass knuckle tactics. We've sort of seen a pendulum swing in this race where Hillary Clinton has never really wanted to embrace sort of a primary campaign. She's always wanted to be the general election candidate. And so we've seen this sort of back and forth throughout the campaign and now we're seeing the pivot back to taking the gloves off against Bernie Sanders. Particularly because he's closing the gap in her home state of New York.
VAUSE: Well, John, we've said this before, enthusiasm, message, it's no replacement for math and delegates at the end of the day.
THOMAS: No, that's right. Hillary Clinton has math and delegates on her side. And she has enough money to compete, even though Sanders has enough money to keep going, but he doesn't have the math, and the delegates on his side. I think if Hillary wants to put this thing away what she needs to do is, she needs Barack Obama. Barack Obama needs to weigh in on this contest say that she needs to be the nominee. And that is one and done because the African-American bloc will not leave the President.
SESAY: So let me ask you this, Dave. I know you delight in tormenting John. You delight in some -- the GOP is in. As we talk about brass knuckle tactics going forward on the Dems side, what are we looking at in terms of the unity of the party on the Democratic side?
JACOBSON: Well, that's been the whole hesitation with Hillary Clinton doing the brass knuckle tactics and attacking Bernie Sanders. Particularly because she doesn't want to alienate his base vote. Young people, independence, very liberal voters, and so I think her chief objective was -- look I'm going to run a general election campaign. I'm going to ultimately locked this thing up because I've got such an unsurmountable lead, insurmountable lead when it comes to the delegate front, but I think at this point because he's got wins back and he's been jolted with so much momentum with these back-to-back victories. I think she's pivoting back to him and understanding, look the chief objective is to become the nominee. I've got to take them out and bury him six feet under and I'm going to do whatever it takes to do that.
SESAY: Oh, scary stuff. THOMAS: I mean, I like to watch the gloves come off.
VAUSE: David and John, thank you.
SESAY: Thank you. All right. We're going to take a quick break. Ahead on CNN NEWSROOM, L.A., why Donald Trump is blaming conservative talk radio for his loss in Wisconsin. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[2:15:53] KATE RILEY, CNN, SPORTS ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: I'm Kate Riley with your CNN world sport we start with the first leg of the UAFA champion league semifinals. And just this weekend brought us up to their third time loss since October. And it wasn't a great start for Barcelona on Tuesday night against Spanish rivals Atletico. Fernando Torres hit the visitors by a goal, but we get sent off soon after leaving Atletico to play with just 10 men. Torres equalized in the second half. Then by his second of the night that's how he is 45th goal in 46 games it all counts for Barcelona.
Meanwhile the 2013 champs in Munich were also in action on Tuesday. Hosting Benfica in their first leg. The German champions didn't waste any time getting on the board just two minutes in Arturo Vidal headed at home to put Bayern ahead, and that's how it was finished. Both games perfectly poised heading into next week second leg.
And finally Villanova University has claimed the U.S. college basketball championship after Chris Jenkins drained in epic three- pointer to beat the final buzzer culminating the tournament known as March madness. An estimated U.S. TV audience of some 30 million watch the game of last year's figures are anything to go by. And that's a look at all your sports headlines. I'm Kate Riley.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BERNIE SANDERS, U.S. DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTAL CANDIDATE: Yes, we can change the status quo when we think big and when we have a vision.
(END VIDEO CLIP)Vidal
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TED CRUZ, U.S. REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Tonight Wisconsin has lit a candle guiding the way forward. Tonight we once again have hope for the future.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: Welcome back, everybody. That's U.S. Republican hopeful Ted Cruz celebrating a primary victory in the state of Wisconsin. The Texas senator needed to win there to stay a viable candidate. CNN projects he beats Donald Trump. He got 48 percent of the vote. He still trails Donald Trump in the national get delegate count. SESAY: While for the Democrats, Bernie Sanders can add Wisconsin to
his list of recent victories. CNN projects he beat Hillary Clinton, and the state's Democratic primary winning about 56 percent of the vote.
VAUSE: Joining us now is Christina Bellantoni, the assistant managing editor politics at the "LA Times" and Dylan Byers, CNN Senior reporter for media and politics. Since this is in your wheel house, let's start with the situation in Wyoming with the talk show, the conservative talk back radio host, six prominent talk back radio hosts in the state, in Wisconsin, they've sort of galvanized together. They're all speaking from the same page of stop Donald Trump. How did that play in this campaign? How influential was that this in the outcome?
DYLAN BYERS, CNN SENIOR REPORTER FOR MEDIA AND POLITICS: It's very influential. And we've never seen an effort from talk radio is big in any of the states. But we've been seeing it on a smaller level across the board going back to Iowa where Steve Dace, who is the most influential conservative talk radio was there really came out for Cruz and against Trump in a big way. And we've seen that state by state by state. For right wing talk radio by and large, but there are exceptions, there are the Rush Limbaugh's in the Sean Hannity's, but at a local level those guys really care about conservatism. They care about electing people who they believe to be true, honest, died in the wool conservatives. They see that in Ted Cruz because they believe he's fundamentally constitutionalist.
They don't see that in Donald Trump. They don't know who Donald Trump is. For many of them, like Steve Dace in Iowa, like Charlie Sykes in Wisconsin. They think he's a fraud. And so especially as you see Trump racing closer and closer to the nomination you get those conservative radio hosts banding together.
[2:20:00] SESAY: Christina, talk to us about, again, that operation we saw there in Wisconsin amongst the talk radio people. But beyond that, what this win means for the never-Trump coalition going forward?
CHRISTINA BELLANTONI, ASSISTANT MANAGING EDITOR POLITICS, "LA TIMES": Well, it starts with money and Ted Cruz himself said that he raised $2 million over the last 24 hours. And it sort of look like he was going to win any had the momentum. And we'll start to see some of those big donors, let's say that were donating to Jeb Bush, a lot of them right here in California. Where do they go next? What kind of decisions are they making? A lot of them have been sitting back. Do they start to open their wallets? We're seeing a lot of super PAC effort, you know, from that never-Trump movement. From people saying will find a way to stop him, whether we are doing it at a brokered convention or if we can try to galvanize behind Ted Cruz right now.
I also I've been paying attention to this as you see so many of Ted Cruz's colleagues even admit they don't like him saying we will actually go with him because we want to prevent Trump and Lindsey Graham being the most prime example of that.
VAUSE: -- a daunting Ted Trump -- Ted Cruz. My gosh, it's late. BYERS: I would say that, I mean so much of the support we see going to Ted Cruz, it's really -- I think it has less to do with Ted Cruz but more to do with he's the only embodiment for that anti-Trump.
SESAY: And what's interesting about that -- and let's put up some exit polling data for you. As we look at the groups that did respond to Cruz. Were just going to put this one group basically looking at education. Whether you look at it whether it's those who never attended college. Those who attended some college. Those that are college graduates. Those that are postgraduate. Across the different classes as it was broken down, Cruz one all of them. I mean, they all responded to him.
VAUSE: Even the polling --
[CROSSTALK]
BYERS: I mean, this is key. I think you see Cruz making games in those demographics that Trump has traditionally won. There was a conversation on our own network earlier tonight about, you know, was Wisconsin a state that was good for Trump or not. The Trump campaign saying, "No, no, he was never going to win Wisconsin." Well actually, no, the demographics were fine for him. The problem is he didn't win those demographics the way that he's one them in the past state.
BELLANTONI: And don't forget Ohio Gov. John Kasich had also said that Wisconsin was going to be good for him, and he didn't win a single delegate tonight. Which calls for him to sort of get out of the race are going to increase then. I'm also interested in the very minor numbers you saw Marco Rubio pull in the state. You know, he did get some votes and it's interesting and it will be interesting to see what he ends up doing in this race.
VAUSE: the issues of the exit polls there's no gender gap here.
BELLANTONI: No.
VAUSE: This was Donald Trump's awful terrible bad week by any stretch of the imagination. But yet after all the gas in the controversy with women, there's no essential difference there between Cruz and Trump. So at least for the Trump campaign there some good news, right.
BELLANTONI: Yes. Another exit poll I was paying attention to was the roughly six in ten voters who said they wouldn't vote for the other guy. Basically said six in ten voters said they're not going to vote for Trump and then six of ten said they're not going to vote for Cruz. But they're all Republican primary voters. So those numbers are not great when you think of Wisconsin being potentially being a battleground state. It's something that Republicans always like to say they have an opportunity to swing it in a general election. It doesn't usually happen.
SESAY: Let's look I had to the Democratic side of things. Of course, the upcoming race in New York on April 19th. Trump was a no-show tonight. But his campaign put out a blistering statement that they took shots at Ted Cruz. But there is no Hillary Clinton either in front of the cameras. She put out a tweet. Let's read the tweets. Will show that with our viewers.
"Hillary Clinton: Congrats Bernie Sanders on winning Wisconsin. To all the voters and volunteers who poured your hearts into this campaign: forward!"
Of course, the Hillary Clinton campaign had been preparing themselves for a loss in Wisconsin. But still not to appear before the cameras. I mean was that a bad move or how do you read that in terms of, you know, the associated risk?
BELLANTONI: You know, I meant to go back and look at my notes from 2008. Because remember that primary campaign lasted all the way until the very last contest in June. And there was a point where they stop calling to concede. There's just sort of a mechanism of the early states. You just sort of stopped doing them because you're already in the next state. Like Bernie Sanders, he was in Wyoming. He didn't bother to celebrate in Wisconsin.
BYERS: I think there's that -- I think there is a general sense of fatigue. It's like what Donald Trump said about the debates. How many times do you need to go through the motions? But I also think for Hillary Clinton what it is that she's looking -- she is running a general election campaign strategy when she can. She is not engaging Bernie Sanders when it's not advantageous for her to do so. That is part of the reason why we spent so many days with this debate over the debates. When will we debate? What will the venue be? What will the terms of that debate be? For Hillary Clinton it's not advantageous to come out and give a concession speech right now.
VAUSE: So is mention that as Secretary Clinton is running those general sort of election campaign. Because we did hear from her earlier on Tuesday, and she was attacking Donald Trump.
[2:25:00] Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: Too many voices out there, too many people are trying to divide Americans against Americans. I wish they'd all come to New York and spend time. And the fellow who is from New York, I wish he'd get out of one of his towers and actually walked the streets, and spend time with the people of the city.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: OK, so Christina, given the result in Wisconsin does this now mean that Hillary Clinton has to change her tactic. She has to now refocus again now on Bernie Sanders?
BELLANTONI: I don't think so. I think she's had her surrogates out there attacking Sanders, and they're doing a lot behind the scenes. Whether that's through ads, or statements, or saying that they're trying to circumvent the will of the voters and everything. Well she has kept a pretty strong focus on the Republicans in the general election for the last number of weeks. But I don't see that changing. We actually get a lot of the daily texts. People are frustrated that her standard supporters are saying, why are you treating her like she's a Republican, or like she is the nominee are ready. Which were not, but you have to look at some of the numbers in the fact that it is a very difficult lead for him to overcome. And even though getting Jeff Weaver on CNN earlier saying that we're taking super number to the convention, the numbers don't point to that. So that's what she's operating under, and really you heard Ted Cruz start to do that tonight too. Taking it right to Hillary Clinton. That's not going to change the fact that there are a number of contents left including right here in California..
SESAY: So does this focus on New York as a next big one. For Hillary, she needs to win it obviously, but she also needs to win it big, Dylan.
BYERS: She needs to win it really big. I mean you really need to win your home state. Ted Cruz needed to win Texas. John Kasich needed to win Ohio. Mark Rubio needed to win Florida, he didn't win Florida, and that's why is not in the race anymore. I will say this is the sort of resident media reporter, we are heading into not only the nation's biggest media market, we are headed into a very robust, gossipy, fun, fiery, fast-paced medium market. You saw with Bernie Sanders interview with the "New York Daily News" as a disaster for him. I mean were going to get to a point where it is not just the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal, were talking about the tabloids are going to be going after these candidates. And you're going to have standards from Brooklyn. Hillary Clinton having served in New York. Donald Trump in New York, I mean this is really going to be a fun week.
LAKE: Cruz and his criticism of New York values..
BYERS: Which we just saw Hillary Clinton embrace.
LAKE: I wonder how that's going to come back to bite him. We'll see.
Thank you guys.
BELLANTONI: Thank you.
BYERS: Thank you.
LAKE: Thanks for staying up late. We'll take a short break here on the late, late show. Coming up, the Republican John Kasich finished far behind in the Wisconsin primary. His prospects and who he may be hurting by staying in the race. Stay with us. You're watching CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[2:30:43] LAKE: Welcome back to everybody. Just after 11:30 here in Los Angeles. We like to welcome our viewers in the United States and all around the world. I'm John Vause.
SESAY: And I'm Isha Sesay. You're watching CNN's special coverage of the Wisconsin primary. VAUSE: And CNN is predicting Ted Cruz will win on the Republican side.
Olds had him leading Donald Trump by that 10 points going into Tuesday. Results show Cruz winning by about 13 points. Ohio Governor, John Kasich finishing a distant third.
SESAY: Wisconsin win is big for Cruz and tough news for Trump. CNN's Sunlen Serfaty, looks at how the two campaigns are reacting.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well senator Cruz in celebrating his win in Wisconsin is making clear he's already looking forward and making something of a rhetorical pivot towards the general election. Not mentioning his rival Donald Trump or John Kasich much during his speech here. Rather going after Hillary Clinton, and in his speech with the words point blank, "Hillary Clinton we are coming for you." Now, Cruz is still behind in the delegate count. And the results pushed this potentially more this towards a contested convention. But Cruz said that this is the path that he is competent of.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CRUZ: Either before Cleveland or at the convention in Cleveland, together we will win a majority of the delegates or together we will beat Hillary Clinton in November.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SERFATY: And Donald Trump did not have an election night event. But his campaign has issued a response to the results in Wisconsin, which in part say, "Ted Cruz is worse than a puppet. He is a Trojan horse being used by the party bosses attempting to steal the nomination for Mr. Trump." And the cruise campaign is responding to that Trump campaign's statement already. Basically casting Donald Trump as being a sore loser. A top Cruz aide telling me that they believe that they believe that Donald Trump is in full meltdown mode. Sunlen Serfaty, CNN, Milwaukee Wisconsin.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SESAY: well, the Democrat Bernie Sanders has racked up his sixth victory in the past seven state contests. He is the projected winner over Hillary Clinton in Wisconsin's Democratic primary, and Sanders did it convincingly. Take a look at those numbers. Topping Clinton by 13 percentage points.
VAUSE: Sanders has already moved on elsewhere, I think to the next caucuses. He addressed a rally there after his big win in Wisconsin .and CNN's Brianna Keilar was there.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Bernie Sanders in Wyoming celebrating his win in the Wisconsin primary. He was here at the University of Wyoming in Laramie riling up supporters. A number of them students who he will be relying on when Democrats caucus in Wyoming on Saturday. He's hoping to add the caucuses on Saturday to a stream of recent wins, create some momentum and head into the New York primary on April 19th and give Hillary Clinton a run for his money.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANDERS: Please keep this a secret. Do not tell Secretary Clinton, she's getting a little nervous, and I don't want her to get more nervous. But I believe we've got an excellent chance to win New York and a lot of delegates in that state.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: His campaign citing her ability to reduce her pledge delegate lead recently by about 80 or so delegates. There are still a considerable spread between the two candidates, more than 200 delegates. But Bernie Sanders and his campaign are insisting there is a path to the White House. Brianna Keilar, CNN, Laramie Wyoming.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VAUSE: For all that path to the White House, let's take a closer look now at the Wisconsin primary. Were joined by Matthew Littman, a Democratic strategists and Hillary Clinton's delegate, and Luis Alvarado, a Republican strategists.
Matt, let's start with you. We'll look at the delegate count on the Democratic side. Hillary Clinton has about 1743 delegates right now. That's including pledged delegates as well as the super-delegates, so that 1778. Bernie Sanders trailing by about 700 delegates here. I guess the argument of a lot of people on the Bernie Sanders side are now making is can Hillary Clinton actually stitch this up with pledged delegates alone? Does she actually need those super-delegates?
[2:35:00] MATHEW LITTMAN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well she's ahead by a lot. And it looks like some of the states that are coming up are pretty favorable to her. So I think she's going to be doing fine on the delegate count. But also the super-delegates, keep in mind that these are members of the Democratic Party. Bernie Sanders isn't a Democrat. He's a socialist. And part of work Sanders should've done was trying to get some of these people to support him, but he chose not to. If he were to be elected president he would need the support of those people to get anything done. They don't support him now, so I actually think it speaks very well of Hillary, because she had that super-delegates support
SESAY: So as you look at your situation on your side of the field what the GOP in disarray, I think that's a fair assessment. ?ow much would you like super-delegates right now?
LUIS ALVARADO, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I'm certain that there is a lot of candidates that have left the dust that would have loved to have some of those super-delegates. It would have been a different situation. I think one of the Senators set of the best when he said, "You know, it's either being poisoned or being shot with Cruz and Trump." And the reality is that there are many in the establishment -- which is funny -- because now Hillary Clinton is the establishment on your site, is really sweating it out. And we're trying to figure out what's going to happen at the convention and what's going to happen after the convention, which I think is most important. Because you have to look at a downtick at how are going to protect those governors, senators, and congressmen that are trying to talk to the electorate. Were already starting to see municipal races. Republican candidates in the municipal race being attacked for being Trump supporter just because they're Republican. And those are tactics were going to see from here to November, besides the presidential campaign, and that's very important. How do we protect those downtick it ballots?
SESAY: Is the party permanently broken? That's what some people are now saying that you're past the point of no return.
ALVARADO: Well, I think like anything that's broken, it can obviously be put back together. I remember clearly when the Democrats won, when Bill Clinton won. I remember saying the Republicans were in the weeds for two generations, and soon enough we came back and did some amazing things.
VAUSE: Those declared the permanent Republican majority.
LITTMAN: Let me say those amazing things -- if you mean by getting George W. Bush elected. The things that he did or not --
VAUSE: Let's not really get into that. We've got a contest still running over this, and I do want to stick on the Democratic side for a little longer, because Barry Sanders is making a lot about these wins. A string of wins which ease notching up. And it's likely to continue to notch up. And we look at what he did tonight by this big win in Wisconsin, he's going to walk away with maybe eight or nine delegates. That's take a look at how many delegates he might get in New York. Ok, because if you look at the current pools right now in this matchup, Hillary Clinton will probably walk away with a net gain of I think of around 32 something or 31 delegates here. Which will wipe out pretty much all of his gains in those other states. So the problem that Bernie Sanders has now is that he has to change the dynamic of his campaign. Can you do that?
LITTMAN: Well, there are some big states coming up. And I have to say for your audience if you haven't read it yet, he gave this long interview with the New York Daily News, I don't know if you've read that?
VAUSE: Yes, we did.
LITTMAN: It was not favorable Bernie Sanders. And I think as he gets into New York foreign policy wise I think he's going to be in a lot of trouble. New York is a state that really cares about foreign policy, especially in New York City. So it's going to be tough for him. I think Wyoming is up next and I think he'll win in Wyoming, which is going to have now eight of the last nine states or something like that. But the delegate math does not add up for Bernie Sanders. It's almost impossible for him to win at this point. So I think -- you know, I like Senator Sanders. I think he's run an amazing campaign. I think Ted Cruz has run an amazing campaign. But I don't see how Sanders can pull it off.
SESAY: So as you talk about there not being a path forward as you see it for Bernie Sanders. Do you anticipate that the chorus or a chorus calling for him to drop out?
LITTMAN: He has so much money --
VAUSE: He's not going any --
ALVARADO: Good momentum.
SESAY: Will people still call for it?
LITTMAN: We could. As Clinton surrogates say --
VAUSE: It would be a good reach though.
LITTMAN: -- but the truth is he does not. And he shouldn't. Hillary didn't drop out when she ran against Barack Obama.
ALVARADO: One of the quick points I wants to make is something I heard on CNN earlier today. Is well, comparing him to Barack Obama, when Barack Obama beat Hillary. Hillary supporters were older and Barack Obama had the young ones. It was easier for the older ones to turn around and support Barack Obama. I don't know if that same dynamic applies with the Bernie Sanders supporters to be able to switch off and be part of the Cumbaya song with Hillary Clinton..
VAUSE: So you people will drop me out. How long before John Kasich has to get out of this contest?
ALVARADO: Oh, he's not getting out. He's going to run it all the way through.
VAUSE: Who's he hurting the most.
ALVARADO: I think he's probably hurting Ted Cruz the most at this point.
VAUSE: Why?
ALVARADO: Because he is getting the air off of it, and then being able to point out the deficiencies in the Cruz campaign and pointing out the deficiencies of a Cruz candidate and being a part of the Republican Party. Just remember, Ted Cruz is not a liked guy in the Republican Party.
[2:40:00] LITTMAN: Ted Cruz -- Kasich, I like Kasich. I think Kasich is a general election camp that could beat Hillary. But I don't think he's going to be the candidate. Right now Cruz is getting the never- Trump votes. A lot of people are just voting for Cruz because he's not Trump. I like Kasich, he shouldn't be running anymore. He should drop out.
SESAY: Luis, as we talk about how it could play out at the convention, what about this Paul Ryan question that people keep talking about? Talk to me about that and your view of what's going on behind the scenes.
ALVARADO: I had a nice conversation with U.S. representative from Florida a few weeks ago, and we had this conversation and it was really interesting how the elected officials in Washington DC are truly looking at this strategy as a viable strategy to actually make sure that they bring the party back together. Knowing that they may not to --
VAUSE: Get the video. Sorry, go on.
ALVARADO: -- so the question becomes what's the objective? Is it just to beat Hillary or Bernie Sanders may be the candidate. But the question is, is it to actually protect, once again the down ticket ballot, or to create some avenues we can still go back to the party and rebuild as we go forward?
SESAY: He's shaking so badly he's --
LITTMAN: What's wrong with what we refer to as the establishment? In Washington, Paul Ryan is popular. In America he's not. This idea that America's clamoring for Paul Ryan is false. There is no one -- you hear this from people in DC only that Paul Ryan is possibly going to save them. No one else is saying that. No one is asking for Paul Ryan.
VAUSE: Even Paul Ryan. He's saying repeatedly --
ALVARADO: Just like he said he wouldn't be Speaker of the House.
LITTMAN: There he is.
VAUSE: Matt and Luis, great speakers, thank you
SESAY: Thanks for coming in. We appreciate it.
SESAY: Across the aisles.
ALVARADO: We could work.
VAUSE: Bipartisan, awesome.
SESAY: All right, time for a quick break. Donald Trump defeated in Wisconsin while Ted Cruz claims victory there. Ahead, the changing landscape in the race for the White House.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[2:45:28] SESAY: Hello everyone. The latest results in the U.S. presidential race are in Wisconsin, and on the Republican side, Ted Cruz is the big winner. CNN projects that he be Donald Trump in Tuesday's primary with about 40 percent of the vote. Still trails Trump and the national delegate count though.
VAUSE: On the Democratic side CNN projects and other win for Bernie Sanders. He tops Hillary Clinton with about 56 percent of the vote there in Wisconsin. SESAY: Let's take a closer look at the results and what they could mean for the race going forward.
VAUSE: CNN politics reporter Tal Kopan, told toll curbing is live in Washington this hours. Tole let's into that statement. I want to read a longer version of the statement that Donald Trump's campaign put out earlier tonight.
It reads, "Donald J. Trump withstood the onslaught of the establishment yet again. Lying Ted Cruz had the governor of Wisconsin, many consider the top radio show hosts, and the entire party apparatus behind them. Not only was he propelled by the anti-Trump Super PACs spending countless millions of dollars on false advertising against Mr. Trump that he was coordinating within his own Super PACs -- which is illegal -- who totally control him. Ted Cruz is worse than a puppet. He is a Trojan horse being used by the party bosses attempting to steal the nomination from Mr. Trump."
Wow, I guess at the bottom-line here, so much for that truce between Donald Trump and the establishment there, the Republican Party.
TAL KOPAN, CNN POLITICS REPORTER: Yes, talk about gracious in defeat, right. We've seen this from Donald Trump before. On the one hand he sort of talks about being the grand uniter of the party, and how one sees the nominee he'll bring everyone together. He'll bring America together. And then at the same time we see that he can still be quite rough on the party, on any of his opponents. He shown time and time again he is not afraid to go there. Anywhere there's a there to go, he will go there. And you know, there is no love lost between him and Ted Cruz. They've been at it for weeks. There was a spat over their wives. Tonight we saw Ted Cruz really strongly embrace his wife on stage. It was quite an exceptional moment as he called her out, and the crowd chanted her name. Sort of raising her up after this rough week. And so Donald Trump is sending a message he will not be intimidated by the establishment, by the anti-Trump forces. It's full steam ahead for Donald Trump and anyone who gets in his way is sort of on warning with Donald Trump.
SESAY: Tal, speaking of sending messages, the president spoke out today about some of the proposals being floated by Republican candidates. I want to play a little bit of a clip for our viewers and get you to give us perspective on the other side.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, U.S. PRESIDENT: I think that I've been very clear earlier that I am getting questions constantly from foreign leaders about some of the wackier suggestions that are being made. I do have to emphasize it's not just Mr. Trump's puzzles. I mean you're also hearing concerns about Mr. Cruz's proposals, which in some ways are dressed as draconian when it comes to immigration, for example.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SESAY: The president calling out Donald Trump and Ted Cruz by name there. Tal, the president also knows that whenever he does that it just kind of boost the GOP side of things and kind of galvanizes their base. So why does he continue to weigh in on the race ? I know he was responding to a question here.but the way he he chose to do it, how are you reading that?
KOPAN: Yes, it's interesting, you know, the other day he said he welcomes questions about Donald Trump. He welcomes the sort of political game questions in a way that -- a lot of the time current politicians say no, you know, I'm not going to play pundit. Pres. Obama is sort of saying, "Let me play pundit. Let me trash the Republicans." You know, he hasn't come out and endorsed Hillary Clinton. But he has sort of subtly signaled that he does support her. And he has said that he will be behind the Democrats 100 percent. Willing to hit the campaign trail, Vice President Biden the same way. You know, I think that they in the White House, the Democratic Party in general really feel like their party is on the line. His legacy is on the line and a very existential way every time the Republicans speak. And so I think, you know, I think you're seeing him respond to that sort of fear of what may come next, personally and then for his party.
[2:50:00] SESAY: CNN, Tal Kopan, joining us there from Washington, Appreciate your perspective. Thanks so much.
KOPAN: Thank you.
VAUSE: Does seem like the president is just itching to get into the primary fighting one way or another. Ok, so break here. When we come back, Tuesday's primary contest gave Bernie Sanders a little more momentum. Ted Cruz had a victory over his biggest rival. Will have a final recap in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PEDRAM JAVAHERI, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Thanks for staying with CNN. Meteorologist, Pedram Javaheri, on Weather Watch right now. Storm system that is pushing it across the eastern third of the U.S. should bring in some rain around Chicago down toward Birmingham, Alabama into Atlanta, Georgia. This front here makes it a blustering pattern over the next couple of days. Also a little unsettled across southern Canada. To support another round of snow showers in Chicago, certainly not cold enough there, but looking at windy conditions with the rain in the forecast.
Montreal should see some evening snow showers, mixed in Winnipeg, same story, around four degrees for the high temperature. And then look what happens, Friday to Saturday, this this almost resembles a may be January, maybe February pattern when we get a blast of cold air yet again, around parts of southern Canada into the northeastern U.S.
Washington goes on a roller coaster ride and eventually it comes back down to about seven degrees. New York City at nine degrees after being up into the teens over the next couple of days. And notice around the Western U.S. very dry pattern initially, and then Friday into Saturday to tap into some subtropical moisture. Southern California, really much of the Sierras as well, getting in on some beautiful wet weather that they would need across this region at this time of year, and they take it there.
I noticed in Chihuahua, it should be on the dry side there, 29 degrees. Havana, Cuba also a drive forecast, partly cloudy skies, looking at around 30 degrees. But thunderstorms scatter around El Salvador, one of those areas were watching for some light rain showers forecast around 30.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VAUSE: Welcome back, everybody. Six minutes until midnight here on the West Coast. The Wisconsin primary had a little of everything from losses for the party front runner, to an amusing comment about the name of a Wisconsin of a Wisconsin County.
SESAY: Here are highlights from Tuesday's big presidential primary night in 90 seconds.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: In the Republican race, will Donald Trump face a new loss to Ted Cruz or will the GOP front runner bounce back from a series of controversies. In the Democratic race, Hillary Clinton is facing a tough fight against Bernie Sanders tonight. Will he add to his recent winning streak as the primary race heads into the homestretch?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is becoming a race for every single delegate.
[2:55:00] BLITZER: 1237 delegates need, depending on what happens in Wisconsin. That could be critically important for all of these candidates
JOHN KING, CNN, ANCHOR AND CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Most people expect Ted Cruz will win tonight. This is about momentum for Bernie Sanders. If he comes in with these wins out in the West, Alaska, Hawaii, momentum at his back, but the math still in Secretary Clinton's favor
DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: This Republican election in Wisconsin tonight, Jake, is a little different. It's not quite as fiery a Republican electorate as we've seen in some of the other contests this season.
UNIDENTIFED MALE: Waukesha County.
UNIDENTIFED FEMALE: Cruz Waukesha County. Just like saying Waukesha.This is a little different. It's not as firey a Republican electorate as we've seen in some of the other contests.
UNIDENTIFED FEMALE: I believe that Hillary Clinton is a better candidate because of Bernie Sanders. I think she's actually more in touch with the base of the Democratic Party and she was starting this campaign because of Bernie Sanders..
BLITZER: Ted Cruz will win the Republican presidential primary.]
CHALIAN: Bernie Sanders will twin Wisconsin Democratic presidential primary, beating Hillary Clinton.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANDERS: We won in Wisconsin.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHALIAN: The conversation among Republicans tonight is they believe we are going to an open convention. That's not guaranteed by any means but I would say it is much more likely.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SESAY: What a night.
VAUSE: Man, still a long way to go.. Thank you for being with us. You have been watching CNN's special election coverage live from Los Angeles. I'm John Vause.
SESAY: And I'm Isha Sesay. We'll have more on the Wisconsin primary right after this quick break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
