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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Scandal Brews In Alabama As Governor Claims There Are No Grounds For Impeachment; Exit Poll Says Economy Is Foremost Issue; Backlash Against "Religious Freedoms" Legislation In Mississippi and North Carolina; Live Interview With Hillary Clinton. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired April 06, 2016 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[12:30:02] ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN HOST: And deny having a physical affair and have this audio tape out there. And he knows it's out there. Jeffrey?

[12:30:09] JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Sure, well, you know, the people deny things all the time. And, you know, who knows what ultimately is the relationship between this gentlemen and the governor and --

BANFIELD: -- when I put my arms around you and my hands on your breast and I'll pull you close, I love that.

TOOBIN: I wouldn't want to speculate on the precise nature of it.

BANFIELD: I don't need to speculate.

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: OK, I'll jump in. Criminal law has long recognized that the most natural human impulse in the first instance is deny, deny, deny. And in some aspects criminal procedure sort of allows for that and doesn't always penalize you for that instinctual, I didn't do it.

After all every not guilty plea is sort of that denial of the facts and saying, "Well, go ahead and prove it."

What kind of rational explanation could there be for an audio like this, I don't know. But I'm sure someone out there much more creative than I will come up with a fascinating explanation.

BANFIELD: So here's the most important question here. Other than like ew, this is disgusting. And I think it's if. If these politicos want to impeach this governor, it's not so simple. And there was -- he didn't say this under oath. He didn't actually break any laws. Maybe he is being a dirty birdie but is that good enough for an impeachment?

TOOBIN: Well, see the thing about impeachment that people don't realize, I think is that impeachment is always a political act not a legal act.

So if the state legislatures of Alabama decide it is impeachable, then it's impeachable, even though there is no criminal offense, even alleged in this circumstance. BANFIELD: Last comment.

CEVALLOS: Impeachment looks like a trial, its smells like a trial. It seems like a normal civil or criminal proceeding in court. But it's not. And it can be confusing because it is dictated by the legislature, the procedure and it is not, even if he's found guilty, it is not civil liability or it's not criminal liability. It's just impeachment.

BANFIELD: And then there's that whole removal from office which is step number two.

I have to leave it there. But it's not the last word on this guys. Thank you for that.

And I just want to remind you, straight ahead at this hour, Hillary Clinton is going to join us live here on CNN, we'll going to discuss what happened last night, all about last night, Wisconsin. The upcoming debate which is going to be really good, and then her strategy moving forward, oh, yeah, and the whole, you know, new strategy to really rip in to her opponent now and disqualify and defeat him. That's new.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:36:54] BANFIELD: Ted Cruz, Bernie Sanders walking away from Wisconsin with a big mo. And if you're new to politics that's the momentum and everybody wants it.

But their big wins yesterday in the primaries had less to do with whom the voters picked than why the voters picked. And some of the reasons are really, really surprising. You got to dig deep in the numbers and that's what Christine Romans has done with all those exit polls.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Ashleigh, the economy issue number one for voters in Wisconsin. Something we have seen in almost every state so far. Thirty-seven percent of Democratic voters put the economy and jobs at very top of their list, followed by government spending, terrorism, income inequality and health care. Of those voters is going to be economy and jobs, 54 percent voted for Bernie Sanders, 8 points more than Hillary Clinton.

On the Republican side, voters say they are fearful about the future of the U.S. economy. We've seen that play out in every contest so far. Ninety-four percent of Wisconsin say, they are worried. Just 6 percent are not. And of those 94 percent, voters broke decisively for Ted Cruz.

It's a big win for him because Donald Trump has repeatedly won those voters this election cycle. Trade, an important top topic for Republicans and Democrats, more than half of all Republican voters say trade with other countries kills U.S. jobs.

Donald Trump won those voters. And he had the most states. But look at this, Trump's victory over Cruz here very small, 43 to 42 percent. That's a big change. Trump, Ashleigh, usually dominates, dominates with this group, a real turning point in Wisconsin.

BANFIELD: Christine, I love you. Thank you so much for looking into that for me.

There's someone else who works here who I adore equally and that is one Chris Cuomo. We have the morning showman. And he's right here beside me. And here's why I adore you. Not only because you're adorable. But also because you're great journalist and you get the bookings my friend.

How on earth fresh of what happened in Wisconsin, where I assume no one in the Clinton camp wants to talk, you get Secretary Clinton?

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: All about the power of CNN. There's no question. Everybody knows that nobody is covering the election the way we are. So as you know they come through this show. Everybody wants to be relevant, wants to be relevant here. And this is an important time because what does Wisconsin mean in terms of the next phase of this race. I really do believe we saw a reset here, in very different ways in a two different parties.

So who better to answer for what Bernie Sanders momentum means six out of seven contests, with the exit polls showed us what happens coming in to New York than Hillary Clinton herself.

And we're waiting for Secretary Clinton right now. When she is ready we will get after it.

(OFF-MIC)

BANFIELD: So this whole notion that Jeff Zeleny was able to get about her retooling how she's going to go after Bernie Sanders. And it is looking like it's going to start getting really ugly. Not something I expected.

CUOMO: I don't know if it's going to get ugly. We have to see.

Zeleny's -- well I haven't heard her use that. I saw her pressed on another show this morning about do you think he is qualified, do you think he is qualified. And Clinton side stepped it, as you would argue she should, right. She shouldn't be in the business of evaluating her opponents in that way, although that's all we see on the GOP side.

And then she said let's let the voters decide.

So I don't know what campaign is going to be. Zeleny is very read in. He's very well wired in that campaign in that campaign. He's an excellent reporter. We all know that.

[12:40:01] But I think that there is a big plus-minus for Clinton going after Sanders. Sanders, is not easy to attack, why? Because not unlike Trump, very different but stay with me, there's such high passion for people who support him that you have to be careful about how you speak negatively about the candidate without alienating the base in a way you may not be able to recover from.

BANFIELD: You need those people.

CUOMO: Absolutely.

BANFIELD: But she' talking about, OK, I'm dealing with that later. I'll unify later. I'll go after those people later. I need to win these states.

CUOMO: Absolutely. And I would think that her people would suggest that the math is very much on her side. Can things change? Yes, but we're talking about the realm of the possible, not the probable.

I think the biggest concern for hem right now, right now, is how does Clinton emerge from this contest? What happens with Sanders if he doesn't win? But when it is convention time and he is such a mighty following. How do you do coalesce? What about these numbers about enthusiasm for you U.S. president of the United States among your own, among Democrats. Trust among your own. How do you deal with those? Because once you get done as the nominee, if that happens for her, now you have the real test in front of you.

So I think that's a real basis of concern and that's why there are things that Hillary Clinton needs to start addressing now.

BANFIELD: And they said so early that this would wrapped up by March. And now it's going to be wrapped up by April. And I'm not sure that they're going to be able to stick with April.

CUOMO: Yeah, and there's this thing that you're introducing people to the idea of momentum in politics. Another word that happens a lot in politics is wrong. They were wrong. Those assessments about Senator Sanders were wrong.

Now, we're just talking our senior E.P. about how it seems like forever ago that I had Senator Sanders on more than once. And he would be talking about income and equality. That's what you need this election to be about. And we would openly say to the senator, if you care so much, why you get in to the race. And he was saying, who wants to have this conversation.

Now, people always ignore this and me running for president, now, the man is a walking hash tag and has an incredible movement around him. So people didn't see it coming.

BANFIELD: Yeah.

CUOMO: That's why you play the game. That's why you have the campaign. People mistook the mood of this country. And they mistook the ability of people to harness that mood, absolutely.

BANFIELD: Well he was saying last night, 11 months ago I was 60 points behind the senator. And that's --

CUOMO: He's right. BANFIELD: You can't deny that this big headline in daily news New York, big paper all over the side walks everywhere. Bernie Sanders hook shame. She -- I can only imagine she is going to go after him on gun control and she will use this against him. She's got two weeks to do whatever she wants at this point to get that New York vote.

CUOMO: This hopefully will get a chance to interview the secretary here shortly. Certainly going to ask about it, because I think that it's rare that you get an issue that you see one of the candidates say, this is the biggie, this is the big difference. Secretary Clinton said this early -- as recently as this morning, this is a big difference between me and Senator Sanders.

So I want to talk to the secretary about what she sees this difference as and how legit it is. You know, the issue very well. This is about what type of liability standard you apply to gun makers.

BANFIELD: Right.

CUOMO: And I think that this is something that plays one way emotionally, another way logically and legally. And that's always an interesting space to navigate. Both of us love it very much.

BANFIELD: For New York so, when you say Sandy Hook the emotion takes over.

CUOMO: Anywhere, anywhere. I mean come on, you have kids, I have kids, anybody whether you have kids or not. Absolutely.

BANFIELD: I see the word and I guess that --

CUOMO: Absolutely, but it becomes about what makes it safe for kids like those going forward? What has worked in the past? What could work in the future? And can you get it done? Those are as important exits you'd see, the emotion at the end of day because why do you feel the emotion, the loss? Where is that emotion take you, take you for the desire.

BANFIELD: The blame.

CUOMO: Not only blame. And then you want change.

BANFIELD: Yeah.

CUOMO: Right? Because blame doesn't heal. What heals is change. It won't happen again. It will be different.

BANFIELD: So do you know how much she capitalizes on this. So that, you know, as well as I do, having worked on campaigns, my goodness, you have to be nimble and be quick because we're getting her all set up and ready to go.

[12:44:08] Chris, is going to do this live interview shortly. So make sure stay tuned. We're back right after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BANFIELD: I take in Mississippi now, and the backlash from equal rights groups and big businesses, to this one day old law now allowing churches and charities and businesses and even state officials the right to refuse services, based on religious grounds to gay people and to transgender people.

Governor says, the legislation is meant to protect religious freedom. But the critics say it's just a blanket allowance for discrimination against the LGBT community. And it comes as pressure grows to repeal something similar in North Carolina, a law that requires transgender people in that state to use public restrooms that corresponds with the sex that's listed on their birth certificate and not the sex that they identify with.

Jeffrey Toobin is back with me now.

So I want to ask you a little bit about what the rationale is for this? We all understand where the religious freedom folks stand and where those critics stand. But then there's the law. And a state law can't be in contravention to a federal law. But to most people it would seem it is. Why is that not so?

TOOBIN: Well because under federal law, under in the United States Constitution, the status of gay people is not entirely settled. Let me give you an example. It is quite clear that if Mississippi were to pass a law that said businesses on religious grounds have the right to refuse service to black people, clearly unconstitutional because the Supreme Court has said that African-Americans, that racial minorities are a class that cannot be discriminated against.

They have never exactly said that about gay people. Now the same-sex marriage case suggests that that's the case. But the court has never actually said that you can't discriminate against gay people under the constitution.

[12:50:01] So this law it maybe unwise, it maybe bigoted, it maybe counter productive. But it may also be constitutional.

BANFIELD: So constitutional until they're might at some point down the road be an amendment. But I want to --

TOOBIN: I'm sorry, not necessarily an amendment. A court case. The Supreme Court may say that you can't discriminate against gay people but they haven't said that yet.

BANFIELD: Or to make them part of a protected class.

TOOBIN: Correct.

BANFIELD: OK. So that the statement from Mississippi governor Phil Bryant says this and I'll paraphrase slightly. But this legislation does not challenge federal law. "Even though laws which are in conflict with Mississippi's constitution and reenforces first amendment rights." I was wondered about first amendment rights versus 14th amendment, you know, in your equal protection. Why doesn't equal protection sort of jump in and give them the cover that the LGBT community you need?

TOOBIN: Well, because under the 14th amendment, the Supreme Court has never said that discrimination against gay people is prohibited. That's the issue with the 14th amendment. And that the first amendment does allow you associate with whoever you want to. And it allows you to have freedom of belief, but the question raised by this case is, may your beliefs entitle you to discriminate against gay people?

And the Supreme Court has never settled that question but there are so many of these laws coming on the books that these cases are almost guaranteed.

Now, of course, there's the political and commercial issue of, you know, Paypal saying they will not open a plant in North Carolina because they don't want to be associated in this state that has these kinds of laws. That's not a legal issue that's a political in our business issue.

BANFIELD: Well, that just a free market's reaction.

TOOBIN: Exactly.

BANFIELD: In that state either. There's been a lot of reaction to both Mississippi and North Carolina. I think there's over 100 companies now that have joined the list and a couple of state as well within their jurisdiction. Some say we won't allow any, you know, government- sponsored travel to these states, unless it is necessary.

TOOBIN: Well, if you remember, last year, Indiana passed a similar kind of law, which critics called, you know, a license to discriminate law. And the corporate reaction was so extreme and so immediate that Indiana backed down and changed that law almost entirely. North Carolina shows no sign of backing down and Mississippi just passed a law yesterday. So, you know, we're going to see whether the backlash moves either of those states to modify or return that law.

BANFIELD: There is one other piece of language and I'm going to have to paraphrase it but it is odd. It stood out to me as something that might actually generate more interest from those who otherwise might dismiss this, or felt that they had any connection to this particular legislation. The law in Mississippi protects from discrimination claims from anyone who believes that marriage is between one man and woman. So the cake baker doesn't want to bake a cake for a same-sex marriage, they get the protection from a discrimination lawsuit.

And there's this, and that sexual relations are reserved solely for marriage. So, I wasn't aware of that until I just happened to notice it today. Does that mean that cake baker could refuse a couple that just lives together to bake a cake for someone who just lives together?

TOOBIN: Absolutely. Absolutely. That's exactly what it means.

BANFIELD: Why is that not making bigger headline, because that affects millions and millions of people. I think a lot of people are sort of beyond the whole you can't have sex before you are married issue. TOOBIN: Well, I think, you know, that first of all, this law just passed and it was brought up very quickly. And, you know, the Mississippi law makes the other laws look tiny just because of the kind of provisions you are talking about and also, the number of people and institutions that are allowed to discriminate under the Mississippi law.

It is every business in the state. It is every church. It's every -- it's the government itself. So the breath of this law is really extraordinary, far greater than the North Carolina law, or even the Indiana law that was over turned. So, you know, I think you are right to point out what an extreme version of the law is. But, you know, this is what the legislators wanted. I mean, it wasn't a mistake.

BANFIELD: It's super fascinating. And there's already litigation that's been launched. The ACLU is hot and heavy on this trail. So I think, you know, without question this is going to be the kind of thing that we watch in the next year or two as being settled to the court and it'll be fascinating to watch.

Jeff, you always have great answers. Thank you so much. Appreciate it.

TOOBIN: All right.

BANFIELD: And as I mentioned. We are waiting on Secretary Clinton who is getting ready for this fabulous interview with the fabulous Chris Cuomo.

[12:54:50] I promised you and I'm going to deliver, more less, in the next couple of minutes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: OK, so Wisconsin is yesterday's news. Although it kind of sting, right for some folks. Today the race, turns to the next big contest, New York. Happens to be where Chris Cuomo is from, have to be where Chris Cuomo is sitting.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: That's exactly right.

BANFIELD: Happens to be where Chris Cuomo is about to interview the former New York Senator Hillary Clinton.

CUOMO: All right. Thank you very much, Ashleigh. Been waiting for the Secretary, she's been busy campaigning but we have her now. Secretary Clinton, thank you for joining us. Appreciate it.

HILLARY CLINTON, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Oh, it's great to talk to again, Chris.

CUOMO: All right. So let's take a look at what Wisconsin means to you last night. With all the speculation going on, do you believe today that you will get to the magic number before the convention? The magic number of delegates?

CLINTON: Yes, I do. And I think that Senator Sanders had a good night last night, and I congratulated him, but if you look at the numbers I'm still considerably ahead in both the popular vote and most importantly the delegate count. So I'm feeling very good about where we are and we're excited to be campaigning in New York and then it will be on to Pennsylvania and other states.

CUOMO: Now when you say, yes, we will reach the number before the convention, do you think that will mean you'll need super delegates? Because the Sanders campaign essentially says that's dirty pool, the super delegates are an artificial help to you.

CLINTON: Well, you know, he knew what the rules were when he decided to run for president. But most importantly, I think we will reach whatever number is required. We're going to continue to acquire delegates and add to our total. I have more delegates than he does, in a broader margin than President Obama had over me at this time in 2008.

So, I think we are doing well. But what's really important, Chris is we stay focused on the issues. We've try to run an issue oriented campaign. But we have some serious differences. We're going to be exploring those, whether it's how Dodd-Frank actually works if you are concerned about income inequality and holding the banks accountable, you have to know how it works and what you have to do to make it work. And I have the best plan to add to that.

When it comes to guns, we have a serious difference. And I was appalled that Senator Sanders said that he, you know, really didn't see any reason for the parents of children massacred at Sandy Hook in Connecticut to be able to try to sue the gunmakers. I just absolutely disagree. So there's a lot we're going to keep talking about and I think that's what the election should be focused on.

CUOMO: Understood. I want to ask you about both of the issues you just articulated. But with Wisconsin in the rear-view mirror, there are some edges and see process to take a look at. You just mentioned the difference between 2008 your last presidential run and now in terms of delegate spread.

There's been a notion from your supporters that it's about time for Sanders to drop out. You say the fact he is not being pressured shows somewhat of a double standard. I heard you say that this morning. And I want to test that a little bit. Yes, you dropped out in June. It is not June yet. So that's one difference. But a bigger difference, it does appear by most metrics that Bernie Sanders has a lot of momentum almost making him more like Obama than like Hillary Clinton.