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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Sharing Information in the War Against Terrorism; Suing Gun Manufacturers; FBI-Apple Conflict. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired April 07, 2016 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THOMAS FUENTES, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY AND LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: -- my last five years in the bureau, I was on the board of INTERPOL. I had agents that worked for me, assigned INTERPOL in Lyon France, assigned to Europol in The Hague.

[12:30:11] And the other problem is that they don't have the capacity to move classified information either one of those systems. So in the U.S. when we get those information that's coming in from FBI offices overseas, CIA offices overseas, that information can be stored, it can be analyzed, it can be disseminated in our classified systems. They don't have that equivalent system over there. They don't have the joint terrorism task forces like we have, where every member of that task force which are all 50 housed in the U.S., FBI office space. Every member of the task force goes through screening to get clear top secret. They see everything.

The police officers, New York City has 150 detectives on the joint terrorism task force. They see CIA traffic, NSA, unfiltered, because they're cleared to handle classified. Europe has no equivalent system.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: But they can access our database, our information about terrorists.

FUENTES: They can access some of it. But they can't access everything in a classified manner, unless we give it to them, which we do. And then the question is, do they store it, do they hold it, do they analyze it, do they disseminate it, do they share it. So they have extreme problems in dealing with this level of data.

BROWN: And there's just nothing done systematically, is the bottom line.

KIMBERLY DOZIER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Yes, but on a positive side, all of the officials within these countries and U.S. officials who have been trying to help them change their laws, they now have this ammunition. So that when they go back to the European parliament and look at some of the legislation, some of which has been languishing for up to six years about tracking passengers within Europe, they will be armed with this example. And maybe they'll be able to change some of this.

BROWN: You're right. And some uses (ph) they have their hands tied for that for that very reason.

FUENTES: If I could have one point. BROWN: Yup

FUENTES: They deal with the issue of data privacy like we deal with gun control legislation. After an incident, all we talk about it, everybody talks about it. But then they really don't want to change it. And you heard -- I heard a french senator on T.V. right after Charlie Hebdo attack who said -- we're not going to do like the U.S. and overreact. We're not going to change our privacy laws. We're not going to start holding metadata. That was after Charlie Hebdo. So you already have resistance right after the fact of a major attack.

BROWN: Yeah, there's clearly a difference of opinions throughout Europe on this issue with balancing civil liberties, with national security.

Thank you so much, Tom Fuentes, Kim Dozier, really appreciate it.

And up next, guns and gun laws, is we're just talking about. Our flash point in the Democratic campaign for president, and this week it got personal.

When we come back, I'll be joined by a Sandy Hook family member who says Bernie Sanders also be ashamed.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:36:58] BROWN: Bernie Sanders is coming under fire for comments over the Sandy Hook gun lawsuit. It came up this week in an interview with the "New York Daily News." The senator was asked what he thought about families of the victims trying to hold gun manufacturers responsible.

Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The victims of the Sandy Hook massacre are looking to have the right to sue for damages the manufacturers of the weapons. Do you think that that is something that should be expanded?

BERNIE SANDERS, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Do I think ...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The right -- yes.

SANDERS: Do I think the victims of a crime with a gun should be able to sue the manufacturer, is that your question?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct.

SANDERS: No, I don't.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Joining us now is Erica Smegielski, she is the daughter of the Sandy Hook Elementary School principal who lost her life on that horrible day in December 2012. Erica, thank you so much for coming on.

I want to first show viewers the tweet you sent right after Sanders' remarks. Here it is, you say, "Shame on you, Bernie Sanders. Try living one hour of our lives. Love, the Sandy Hook principal's daughter.

What would you like to say Erica to sanders in regards to his comments, if you were able to talk to him face-to-face?

ERICA SMEGIELSKI, DAUGHTER OF SANDY HOOK VICTIM: I think that the families do deserve an apology. I think that his response to the tweet and the articles following were despicable, at best. It's really families from the Sandy Hook school shooting, as well as the Aurora shooting that are calling on him for an apology. It's not Hillary Clinton. So it's shameful that he responded to our request for an apology with political attacks against Hillary Clinton.

BROWN: So Sanders' campaign spokesman Michael Briggs did issue this statement after his remarks. And part of this is what you're alluding to. He wrote in part, "Senator Sanders supports President Obama's efforts to end gun violence. He voted for the legislation considered by the Senate after Sandy Hook. He has a clear and consistent record on the issue."

You say that's not enough. What do you want to hear from him?

SMEGIELSKI: I don't think that that's entirely accurate. On the morning of December 14th, when I was sitting in the Sandy Hook firehouse, trying to figure out if my mom was dead or alive, he was defending a vote to give special liability to gun manufacturers, to essentially not hold them accountable.

And that's something that the NRA prides themselves on. They say that it's the most important vote they've had in the past 20 years.

So for him to say that he is, you know, in full support of survivors of gun violence, and for strengthening gun laws, I think that it's not at all true. I mean, his actions have proved that.

BROWN: And what do you say to his argument that these gun manufacturers shouldn't be sued, unless they knew that their weapons were going to fall into the wrong hands? What do you say to that?

SMEGIELSKI: I would really like to know why he thinks that gun manufacturers are the only corporations that should have that type of special protection.

[12:40:09] BROWN: So I should mention, you are supporter of Sanders rival, Hillary Clinton. She's had some words regarding the Sanders comments on this issue.

Let's take a listen to that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) HILLARY CLINTON, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: When it comes to guns, we have a really serious difference. And I was appalled that Senator Sanders said that he, you know, really didn't see any reason for the parents of children massacred at Sandy Hook in Connecticut to be able to try to sue the gun makers. I just absolutely disagree.

And so there's lot we're going to keep talking about. And I think that's what the election should be focused on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So what do you make of the back and forth between these two candidates, Erica?

SMEGIELSKI: I mean, it's politics. It's something that I think we should all expect at this point. It's really, really, really heartwarming to hear senator -- I'm sorry, to hear Secretary Clinton really standing up and standing beside survivors of gun violence and family members of victims.

And, you know, as she said, she does think that these gun manufacturers should be held accountable for essentially the mass market, and targeted marketing of these military-style weapons.

BROWN: And I just want to put politics aside for a second. We're looking at pictures of your mother right here. Any final thoughts about your mother, Erica?

SMEGIELSKI: This world lost an amazing human on December 14th of 2012. I know that she is beaming down right now with pride, and would be in full support of Hillary Clinton, and everything that she stands for, just as I am.

BROWN: Erica Smegielski, thank you so much.

SMEGIELSKI: Thank you, Pam.

BROWN: Well, we still don't know what, if anything, the FBI was able to get from that San Bernardino shooter's iPhone. But we now know more about how that phone was hacked, and you will too, right after this break. Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Chef Ryan Hidinger and his wife Jen dreamed of starting their own restaurant.

JEN HIDINGER, THE GIVING KITCHEN: We were working our supper club out of our home for about four years until a very unexpected moment happened in our lives. He was diagnosed with stage four gallbladder cancer.

CUOMO: Their friends in the restaurant community came together to raise money for them.

HIDINGER: And for Ryan and I to stand there as this couple that was benefitting from all of this, what community can be about, literally impacted us.

CUOMO: Ryan and Jen started The Giving Kitchen.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was out of work for three months.

CUOMO: A non-profit that helps Atlanta restaurant workers facing financial emergencies.

The money comes from fundraisers and Ryan's restaurant, which finally became a reality in 2015 with an even greater purpose. One hundred percent of the profits go back to The Giving Kitchen.

Ryan passed away in 2014, but he lived long enough to set the table for what would become his legacy.

HIDINGER: He would be the first to say, I don't deserve it. But he did. Because he was just that good. And it's humbling to be able to stand at the restaurant that we dreamed of.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:47:56] BROWN: Well the FBI is revealing how it hacked into the iPhone used by one of the San Bernardino shooters. FBI Director James Comey says the government bought a "Tool" from a private party to unlock it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES COMEY, FBI DIRECTOR: The FBI is very good at keeping secrets. And the people we bought this from, I know a fair amount about them. And I'm -- I have a high degree of confidence that they are very good at protecting it. And their motivations align with ours.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So remember, initially the government sued Apple to bypass the iPhone security features. Well, it dropped the lawsuit after finding another way to unlock the device. Let's bring in CNN Justice Reporter, my colleague, Evan Perez, about this.

So he comes out and says the FBI bought this technology to crack this phone. What more do we know about this? I mean, is this someone -- something that the two of us could buy off the shelf? What do we know?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE REPORTER: Well the language he uses certainly makes it seem like it's a piece of off the shelf software, the kind that maybe you and I could just go on the iTunes store and download. That's the language he uses. It's very a lot of information is still not known about this because we still don't know the identity of this third party. We don't know if it's a company or if it's some kind of institute, some perhaps a university, research institute or something.

There are a lot of those types of the institutes that do a lot of research on hacking and so on. So we don't know the identity. There's been a lot of speculation about this one, Israeli company called Celebright and we now know, you and I both been told by officials that it is not that company, despite the speculation in media circles about it. But we do know that from what Director Comey says, that they believe this is an entity that is going to protect this. So it's not going to be out there for other hackers to use.

BROWN: I was going to say, it's clear he made a point to quell concerns that this company would use the tools to hack another phones, right?

PEREZ: Right, exactly. And that this company might try to sell it on the black market which, as you know, there's a lot of hacking tools that are available on for download on the dark web.

[12:50:03] BROWN: How likely does it seem that the government will hand over this method to Apple, as Apple is now asking?

PEREZ: Well, one of the interesting things that Comey points out in this speech that he made last night was that the minute they tell Apple how they did this, Apple is going to fix it. And then they're going to be back to square one. They're going to be back to litigation again.

So one of the things that they're doing right now, there's a discussion at high levels in the government, as to whether or not and how to do this. There is government policy that when you discover some kind of vulnerability in technology, you're supposed to tell the company, so that they can fix it.

However, there is an exception to that policy, where the government needs to exploit that vulnerability for national security purposes. So we expect that at some point, this point will be moot, because people will start switching to other phones. As Comey has pointed out, this tool is useful only on a very narrow set of phones. And so eventually, people will move off and then we'll find out what Apple finds out.

BROWN: But it's likely in the near term it will be classified.

PEREZ: You can bet, Apple is working on trying to figuring this out themselves, right.

BROWN: Oh, yeah. And I imagine so.

Evan Perez, thank you so much for that.

And straight ahead, a cell phone video, you may well find outrageous. It's a sixth grade girl being body slammed by a school police officer.

Well now the whole thing is being investigated. And we'll have the very latest, it's up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:55:15] BROWN: At least two investigations are now under way in Texas, and the violent takedown of a 12-year-old girl by a school police officer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Janissa go, Janissa go. Oh, Janissa, are you OK?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: That sixth-grader Janissa Valdez, being body slammed, basically, last week at a middle school in San Antonio. Well the officer is now on paid leave. And Janissa has one word to describe his actions.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wrong, because I wasn't going to do anything.

GLORIA VALDEZ, MOTHER OF THE GIRL SLAMMED BY OFFICER: And she wasn't moving. She was just like, knocked out. And I wanted answers. And nobody could give me answers. I contacted the vice president. I talked to officer. And he did what he had to do at the moment. Those were his words.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: And so far that's all we have in terms of his side.

Joining me now is Former Federal Prosecutor, Laura Coates along with CNN Law Enforcement Analyst Tom Fuentes.

Tom, you see this video, and you know, you want to just jump to a conclusion. That, oh my gosh, you know, this is clearly excessive force. We do not know all of the details, though. There could be more to this. But when you look at that, do you think this is excessive force?

FUENTES: Well, certainly. If you see just that piece, from the time he's got his arms around her and takes her down to the ground hard, yeah, that looks excessive. But students and other people were reporting that the -- that she had been kicking the officer just before that, and so we don't know if we have selective editing on that video. And there's more to it.

But no matter what happens, if a police officer violently wrestles a 12-year-old, it's not going to look good for the cop, no matter what.

BROWN: And you just have to keep, and we're just talking about this. He's got to know, and this teenage people are going to bring out their phones and film the encounter.

FUENTES: Absolutely. And one more issue with that.

BROWN: Yeah.

FUENTES: You know, why does that school have cops? This is a middle school. And so many times now, we're seeing schools that the teachers can't handle the kids. The administrators can't handle the kids. Let's have cops do it. So the cops are getting put into a really difficult situation that it's all up to them to keep kids from being violent with each other. BROWN: Which then brings in the whole training question which we'll get to a little bit later.

But Laura, just going back to whether or not this is excessive force. From a legal standpoint, what would be the justification for this officer legally, to say, you know, this is what I had to do in this case?

I mean how could he sort of be exonerated?

LAURA COATES, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Legally, officers in schools can act no different than they can outside of schools. They have to use what's called a continuum of force. You can't immediately escalate a confrontation with a person you're trying to arrest, or trying to encounter by simply going from 0 to 60. You have to actually repel whatever force is coming at you with whatever force to actually stop it.

And in this particular case, what you have here is a gentleman who was -- if there was no video footage, nothing else that happened, there is no video that she's kicking him immediately beforehand or hurting him in any way beforehand. What you have is an officer who simply -- there's no lapse of time before he actually takes her down, face-down to the concrete. Legally speaking, this is excessive force.

BROWN: So going back to what we were just talking about, you know, the training for these officers who are put in this position in middle schools. You know, what needs to be done? I mean, is there enough sort of training for these people like this person in the video to handle a situation like this and deescalate them?

FUENTES: Well, I think that's probably, you know, in addition to the training, you also need a system where they're calling for some other officer to come, a female officer, or more backup, so we're seeing this where it's one-on-one, the officer with an unruly student.

And it's questionable, as Laura mentioned, how unruly in this case, since we don't see video preceding the actually takedown. We just see the takedown.

So there may be more to that story. But the fact, you know, of having one officer all by himself with someone who may not want to comply is always going to be a recipe for bad news for the cop.

COATES: And maybe not just for the cop, but maybe for the school district, right.

BROWN: Exactly.

COATES: I mean -- will take the officer, I understand that. But the issue here is there are 40,000, at least, of these school officers across the country another 40,000 who actually security guards. They are there for the post columbine and then personally post Sandy Hook after a case that happened.

But the key is, their training has to mirror what is on the street which is reasonable force has to be used. And whether the student -- talking about a student who may or may not have kicked the officer, does not necessarily require the officer to body-slam face-down.

The training that's important to happen, they have a three-part role. An educator, a counselor and an officer and because you have this duality of your role does not excuse the officer from legally abiding by the obligation of the trainer to say, "I'm required to use only the amount of force necessary to actually stop the force against me."

[13:00:02] BROWN: Well, as I said, two investigations under way. We'll see how this plays out.

Laura Coates, Tom Fuentes, thank you very much for that. And thank you for watching.

Wolf starts now.