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Cameron Admits Selling Stake in Offshore Find; Pope Francis to Visit Aegean Islands in Greece; Migrants Deported From Greece to Turkey; Pope's Trip to Greek Island Set For April 16th; ANC Secretary General Defends Zuma; Kasrils Leads Calls For Zuma to Step Down; Pressure on South African President Intensifies; American Growth Figures Cut; DOW Logs Worst Loss in 6 Weeks; U.S. Economic Growth Forecasts Cut; Panama Creating Independent Committee on Tax; Tracking Down the Psychic, Maria Duval, That "No One Sees"

Aired April 7, 2016 - 16:00:00   ET



RICHARD QUEST, HOST: Oh, deary, deary me. Awful day on Wall Street. The Dow Jones is up best of 1%. It is a loss of 170 odd points. The market opened

down and never recovered. We look at why that happened after this gentleman -- that's what you call a robust gavel. Even on a dreadful day, on

Thursday, it's the 7th of April.


QUEST: Tonight, time for transparency. Panama vows, fix its offshore tax system. I'll be speaking live to Panama's Vice President on this program.

The chief executive of GE lights up Bernie Sanders. It's a disagreement between the politician and the chief exec.

And Iceland's finance minister has had a tough week. Tonight, he tells me he is not going to quit.


QUEST: I'm Richard Quest. We have an hour together. And I mean business.

Good evening, tonight, Panama's government is jolted into action by the "Panama Papers" scandal, with promises to reform the offshore tax system.

After this week's giant leak of tax documents, the government is now vowing to improve transparency with the rest of the world. It comes as a host of

the world's largest economies are announcing their own plans to tighten up rules on offshore accounts after seemingly decades of inaction.

And that's what we're going to be looking at this evening on the program. How the rest of the world is determined to get to grips with the Panama



QUEST: The U.S. Treasury says it will force banks to identify who is behind shell companies. Currently, companies can shield their owners. Earlier

proposals in 2012 and '14 stalled after opposition from banks.

Across the Atlantic the United Kingdom is to give banks one week to say they have ties with Mossack Fonseca, the law firm that created all these

offshore countries. It applies to 20 banks.

The European Union is vowing to close loopholes and create a blacklist of tax havens. You'll hear from the commissioner, Pierre Moscovici, on

tonight's program. And Panama itself announces an independent commission into its financial system. The president says he will work with the

international community.

JUAN CARLOS VARELA, PANAMANIAN PRESIDENT: (As translated) We will work not only internally in our country, but also we will direct efforts to benefit

the rest of the world. I want to make it clear that Panama will continue to cooperate with other (inaudible), as we have traditionally, to pursue

crimes which have been identified in our criminal code.


QUEST: Joining me now from Panama City is the country's vice president, Isabel Saint Malo. Madam Vice President, thank you for joining us. We

appreciate it.

ISABEL SAINT MALO, PANAMA VICE PRESIDENT: Thank you, Richard. Thank you for the opportunity.

QUEST: Whichever way you look at it, however unfair you may think it might be, having it been called the "Panama Papers," the reality is, Madam,

tonight your country is tainted with the brush of scandal from this -- from the "Panama Papers," isn't it?


MALO: It is, Richard. It quite is. And we are working very hard, in order to convey our message. We are a government with zero tolerance to

irregularities. We are truly committed to transparency. The steps we have taken in these 21 months in government speak for themselves. We have placed

into action a specific loss against money laundering.

As of January 2016, bear shares are no longer possible in Panama. We've made serious, serious transformation to our system. And we regret, we truly

regret that this scandal has shed some light into a Panamanian firm that has been kind of misconceived into -- into Panama. While Panama is a

country and a government committed to transparency, we've worked very hard.


QUEST: The OECD, the head of the OECD yesterday on this program, Angel Guerra, and indeed Pierre Moscovici tonight on this program, the E.U.

Commissioner, they both make the point that Panama still has not signed up to all the anti-corruption, the anti-money laundering, the cross-border

information flows treaties that they need to do so. When will you sign up to all the relevant treaties?

MALO: Richard, we signed up a while ago. When I had a conversation, a very honest, positive conversation this morning with Angel Guerra over the

telephone, and I was telling him, I do not understand why OECD has not read into Panama's commitment. Last year, last September at the General

Assembly, President Barilla announced Panama's commitment to automatic exchange of information.


MALO: Panama has almost 30 treaties of double taxation, with different jurisdictions that are in place and have been in place. Panama is currently

negotiating additional treaties. Where has Panama's difference been with the OECD? The difference we have been to the common reporting standard.

Yes, we commit to the common reporting standard. But for now, we commit to it on a bilateral basis, for different reasons. That has been the

difference, but, yes, we have committed. Not now, we committed a while ago. So we need to get our story straight, Richard.


QUEST: Even if Panama has cleaned up its act, and I take you at your word, ma'am, that greater transparency is coming. Mossack Fonseca was dealing

with many of these other jurisdictions, these tax havens in the middle of anywhere, where the rules and transparencies did not exist. So how can you

stop law firms doing business in Panama, but actually taking advantage of other jurisdictions? Can you?

MALO: Well, as I mentioned, January, this year, a legislation that had been passed a few years ago, but that the country had been reluctant to put in

place, was put in place. This legislation, establishes that in Panama, it is no longer possible to issue bear shares. It is no longer possible.

The way that business has been done in many jurisdictions over the world is changing - is changing for the good it's changing for transparency. As well

as is Panama changing. The actions that we have taken speak for themselves. And an example of this is a decision taken by FATF to remove Panama from

the -- from the bear list, and that is a result of the recognition of Panama's effort. What we need to do in order to move forward is to ensure

that the institutions that we have put in place and we actually put in place last year, a new institution with the objective of ensuring


QUEST: Can I finish by asking, I mean, do you think Mossack Fonseca, they should just disappear now? They should be prosecuted, this law firm? I mean

because they say specifically they've never broken any laws. They've acted with the highest level of reputation, they have no problems. So you see

Madam, you see this disconnect between a law firm saying we've done nothing wrong and everybody else, including yourself saying, we've got to clean up

our act. Is it time for this law firm to go?

MALO: Richard, I have spoken about Panama. The Republic of Panama has cleaned up its act. Now, if there have been irregularities and the

publications are disturbing I need to say that the system needs to take care of that. Our Attorney General said last Sunday that they would

initiate an evaluation. We need to allow the appropriate institutions to take their - to take their steps and that is certainly not the

responsibility of the executives. But Panama, yes, Panama has cleaned up its act and we need to ensure oversight, to be certain that these new

regulations are in place.

QUEST: Madam Vice President, thank you. You've been kind and generous with your time tonight and I'm very grateful that you've come on the program to

talk to me. Thank you.

MALO: Thank you very much, Richard.

QUEST: Panamanian Vice President, you'll hear more about that as the program wears on. Because what we were talking about there with the Vice

President is the way in which the rest of the world is now looking at the country.

The European Tax Commissioner, Pierre Moscovici says he's outraged, furious with the panama Papers revelations and he says that the tax avoidance is

unethical. I spoke to the commissioner earlier and I asked Pierre Moscovici his thoughts on those who have legally - remember much of this is about

legal behavior using tax loopholes.


PIERRE MOSCOVICI, EUROPEAN TAX COMMISSIONER: We need first to know precisely what we are talking about. And this is why I advocate for a Pan-

EU blacklist of non-corporative jurisdictions. Let's call them tax havens. We don't have that at the moment. I want us, the E.U. to have one in six

months from now.

Second, we need to be whatever the situations are in full cooperation with the member states or member states concerned. And for example I regret, I

do more than regret that Panama is not cooperative approach in the framework of the OECD. And I urge the Panamese authorities to be in a

cooperative mood.


MOSCOVICI: And third, we need to reestablish legal mechanisms that create a level playing field. If i look at multi-national company, operating in

Europe, in different member states, what I ask for is that this company or the companies which are under its responsibility, pay their fair share of

tax, fair share of tax, which means that they pay the taxes and create profits. This is, I think, good sense.

QUEST: Can you get the E.U. members to agree to give you that authority, to put together that list, when you have disparate views, and many countries

will not want this to be dealt with at an E.U. level, will prefer to deal with it at their own national level.

MOSCOVICI: First in our decision-making process I need the agreement of member's states to commission proposes, then the commission implements, but

the decision relies on the member states. And for that kind of decision, we need unanimity among 28 member states. And I know that it's always very

difficult to meet.

But secondly, yes, I'm confident that we will get that.

QUEST: Do you have any problems or qualms or any unease that, frankly, the Panama Papers, very likely, are the result of theft. A law firm has had its

own privacy broken into, details hacked, and now leaked. So is there not an element of hypocrisy by many who now say how dreadful it is, but at the

same time, are choosing to ignore the fact that this may be the fruits of ill-gotten theft?

MOSCOVICI: I can understand what you say. And certainly I believe that full transparency would be better. And this is why at the level of the E.U., we

are going to propose by next week, that for the activities, for example of multi-national firms, which represent something like, and strong firms,

which represent something like 95% of the economic activities in Europe, we have a country-by-country reporting, that is going to be public. I prefer

transparency within the rules. Then, to have transparency obtained, because there are no convincing rules, or because those rules are not followed


But I want to say that while the consortium made a good job, and that's not regarding the masses, but this job is useful. It's very useful for the

world, and it will have us to make progress.


QUEST: Pierre Moscovici on the Panama Papers. >

Now, in the United States, a most extraordinary war of words has broken out between business and politics.


QUEST: You've got Bernie Sanders who fired the opening salvo when roundly criticizing G.E. But far from just taking it lying down, G.E.'s CEO has

launched back. We'll talk about Sanders versus General Electric after the break. It's "Quest Means Business."




QUEST: Welcome back. Politics and business butted heads today, as one of America's top chief execs came out swinging at Bernie Sanders. Now,

Sanders, who has been criticizing - Sanders the socialist, has been criticizing corporate America, and specifically about G.E. He says G.E. is

destroying the moral fabric of America. Those words were a red rag to the bull. Sending, he says, jobs to low-wage countries, and then going even

further by saying that they pay nothing in taxes.

G.E. was having absolutely none of it. The chief executive is Jeffrey Immelt, who doesn't often speak out on these issues, but he immediately

responded in an op-ed, saying, "we've never been a big hit with socialists." Arguing that G.E. has businesses in 180 countries, competes

globally, and then saying Senator Sanders is lying about G.E's taxes.

Throughout this election, Corporate America has been a frequent target for Senator Sanders. He's also singled out J P Morgan Chase, and he was highly

critical of the Pfizer Allergen deal. It's not just the left with Sanders that's decided to beat up on Corporate America.

Agreement from the Republicans too where Donald Trump blasted the Pfizer deal, blamed politicians, and not only Pfizer, but has also criticized

Nabisco and the Ford motor company for shifting production to Mexico. Put it all together, whether it's Sanders or Trump, everybody, it seems, is

going after Corporate America.


HILLARY CLINTON, DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I want to go after the hedge funds that have bought up drug companies. You know, Valiant

pharmaceuticals, Touring pharmaceuticals.

DONALD TRUMP, REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I would tell the people at Ford, I don't want you to do that. I don't want you to close your plants. I

want you to build new plants. You don't have to have the old ones, and I don't care, it can be anywhere, but it has to be in the United States.

BERNIE SANDERS, DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He said I was dangerous, and he is right, I am dangerous for Wall Street.


QUEST: Rana is with me, CNN's global economics analyst and author of "Makers and Takers."

Rana, good to see you.


QUEST: This is unusual.


QUEST: Not just that they've - I mean bashing corporate America is (inaudible) --

FOROOHAR: Certainly in this campaign season.

QUEST: But, a) Sanders appears to have picked on the wrong target with G.E. and Immelt is furious as a result.

FOROOHAR: Yes, I think he has picked on the wrong target. I mean look nobody will say that a global company like G.E. isn't putting jobs wherever

it's best for them and doing tax optimization, but the thing that's different about G.E., is when you go to places like Davos, when you go and

talk to global CEOs, they will actually hold up, and policymakers too, they'll hold up G.E. as an example of how they create manufacturing jobs in

rich countries like the U.S.


FOROOHAR: They've actually done a lot with sort of regional hubbing.


FOROOHAR: I've visited some of their factories in Schenectady an old rust belt city in New York. And they're doing a lot better job than most. So

this is a very different target than, say, Pfizer.

QUEST: Right, were you surprised, though, that Immelt chose to come out with an article? He says they you know, we're competing globally with

foreign companies. It's easy to make hollow campaign promises and take cheap spots in speeches during editorial board sessions, but U.S. companies

have to deliver for their employees.

FOROOHAR: I was surprised, for two reasons. For starters, Immelt hasn't been in the news a lot lately himself. You know G.E. was in the news a few

years back, they actually tried to get out of the finance back. They've been one of the too big to fail banks for a while pre-2008, then they

shifted over to manufacturing. He's been quiet during that time. The fact that he's striking out is very important.

But actually, I think its part of a bigger shift. Because if you go back to the 1990s, celebrity CEOs were big. Then after the financial crisis, nobody

wanted to put their heads above the parapet. Now I think you may see folks coming back and starting to speak out.

QUEST: But we also have -- just to prove that they're all equal opportunity offenders, you have Trump, a businessman. Blasting --

FOROOHAR: Of sorts.

QUEST: Blasting Wall Street and hedge funds. But also corporate America, for shifting jobs. And invoking the ire of Mark Fields' Ford.

FOROOHAR: Yes, well I mean, and this just goes to show you, it's not -- all businessmen are not created equal, for starters.


FOROOHAR: I mean I've always found it very interesting that Donald Trump blasts Wall Street, when this is a guy who's done highly leveraged deals in

the casino business. You know, I think that's it's all part of a conversation about how should wealth be shared? Who are corporations run



QUEST: Which is what you talk about in your book.


QUEST: Should we expect Wall Street to be - I'm sorry not Wall Street -- Corporate America, to be bashed more in this election campaign? Because at

the moment, you know as well as I do, a CEO will never say something controversial, unless they're absolutely certain it's not controversial.


FOROOHAR: Right, which is kind of why Immelt's letter is so fascinating frankly because it's no-holds-barred. You know this is really interesting.

I think what's going to happen, let's imagine that it's -- in the general, it's Hillary/Trump. I think at that point, you may see Trump really going

after certain corporate targets, and Hillary becoming the sort of more moderate defender of a kind of, you know, broader global stakeholder

capitalism, that sort of, you know, keeps big companies under the tent. So, you know, I think that the debate will continue. Who's blaming who is going

to change.

QUEST: Fascinating. Thank you. Good to see you.

FOROOHAR: And you.

QUEST: The market, oh, have a look and then have a bout of indigestion.


QUEST I have no idea why, when it looks as if the Fed is not going to move on rates anytime soon or at least there's a debate going on, on an average

Thursday in April, U.S. stocks chose to log their worst loss in six weeks. Rana's still with me. I mean Rana, who on earth -- it's an average Thursday

in April.


FOROOHAR: It's amazing. I mean you know what the Fed is doing, what's going on globally, frankly, right now is amazing.


FOROOHAR: I mean can I just, in the global front, 30% of bonds are paying negative yields right now, globally. You know this is a crazy world we're

living in. Stocks and the real economy, totally disconnected.


QUEST: And this -- so, is this just pure volatility? Because the volatility that we saw at the end of last year, the China-related volatility has gone

away for the moment but --


FOROOHAR: Indeed. I think what's happening is that because we're living in this bizarre-o world, where none of the old correlations hold, stocks and

bonds are doing things that we never would have expected, at times we wouldn't have expected. The markets don't know what to think. I think that

that's what's happening. Is everybody's trying to recalibrate and nobody knows how to do that.

QUEST: Recalibration with no map. Thank you, good to see you.


FOROOHAR: And you.

QUEST: Let's have a look at the European stocks and how they ended the day, they were all lower, not surprisingly.


QUEST: They seen what was happening on Wall Street and they decided to turn turtle and go home. The worst losses were, seems to be just about the

Xetra DAX in Frankfurt which was off the best part of 1%. Banking stocks were hardly hit, were hard hit.

The ECB says it won't rule out further policy changes. And the global - the global outlook remains uncertain, tell me something that we don't know.


QUEST: Iceland's finance minister says he's not going anywhere. The minister was named in the Panama Papers, along with Iceland's Prime

Minister, Sigmund David Gunnlaugsson who said he wasn't going to resign and then promptly did so the day after.


QUEST: Now the replacement was sworn in on Thursday. He has called for elections to be held in the autumn, but that is not soon enough for

protesters in the capital Reykjavik. I was joined on the line a short while ago by Iceland's finance minister and I put it to him that elections, never

mind being in the fall, bearing in mind the Prime Minister resigned, and the protests on the streets, those elections should be held as soon as


BJARNI BENEDIKTSSON, ICELANDIC MINISTER OF FINANCE: It is very fair to say that a serious situation has arisen in Iceland crisis, I would not agree to

that. There is good stability in Iceland, we are enjoying economic growth and the government is in the midst of concluding its program for lifting of

capital controls. And one can say that more political stability is foundation for economic stability. And that is what we have been able to do

in this parliamentary session, is to regain economic stability and we want to maintain that.

QUEST: How would you describe the revelations and the effects and the fallout from the so-called Panama Papers in Iceland?

BENEDIKTSSON: Well, I'd say, number one, the extent, the extent of this use of low-tax countries and regions is something that came as a shock, number

one. Secondly, I think that people are still trying to figure out what this really does mean, in terms of true tax evasion, and I think that will

always need to be kept in mind, that these documents do not, in themselves, reveal tax evasion from Icelandic tax authorities. But they can serve as

evidence in the supervision that our institutions must be able to do. Obviously, as the Prime Minister has stepped down, the focus this week has

been on the potential or possible conflicts of interest. I mean, this is what was the reason why the Prime Minister has stepped down.


QUEST: And now everybody's asking whether on the same grounds of perception, whether perception not real, but whether you should step down,

too, minister.

BENEDIKTSSON: Yes, I have noticed that, of course. And I have given my explanations. There has never been an issue of potential conflict in my

time assist minister of finance. This is an issue which was ended in 2008 and 2009, and it was a very simple transaction, where money went out of

Iceland, and came back to Iceland, and everything was declared through the tax authorities.

QUEST: At best, you may be accused, minister, of poor judgment. Do you accept that?

BENEDIKTSSON: I don't accept that. I have provided evidence and information, which I believe are sufficient to prove my point.

QUEST: Do you now accept, and does the Icelandic government accept that there needs to be greater transparency, greater rules, and a clampdown on

offshore companies?

BENEDIKTSSON: Absolutely. And this is the reason why I participated in signing the OECD Standards for Exchange of Tax Information on Iceland's

behalf. And Iceland is one of the earlier adapters to the new OECD standards on information exchange. We've already started that fight, and

we're in the fight with the OECD and with newly amended rules and regulations in Iceland.


QUEST: Iceland's Finance Minister talking to me earlier. It's "Quest Means Business," we have more in a moment.


QUEST: Hello, I'm Richard Quest there's more "Quest Means Business" in just a moment when we're going to bring you the final chapter in CNN Money's

search for a mysterious psychic. Does she exist or is she just out to take the money?

The pressure is on and mounting on South Africa's President. We're going to be in Johannesburg with the former intelligence minister. Is it time for

Jacob Zuma to go?

Before that, this is CNN and on this network, the news always comes first.


QUEST: Belgium Police have released new images of the third suspect in the Brussels airport attack. Security camera videos show the suspect wearing a

hat and walking from the airport in the hours after the attack. Belgian authorities have issued a wanted notice for the suspect.

Hundreds of people marched in the Bangladeshi capital to protest against the killing of a blogger who criticized Islamist extremism. Police say

Nazimuddin Samad somehow was hacked with machetes and then shot. He's the sixth secular writer to be killed there in the past 14 months.

The British Prime Minister, David Cameron, has admitted he profited from a stake in an offshore fund run by his late father. The existence of the

fund was revealed in the Panama Papers leaked. Mr. Cameron told ITV news he'd done nothing illegal.


DAVID CAMERON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: We owned 5,000 units in Blairmore Investment Trust, which we sold in January 2010. That was worth something

like 30,000 pounds.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was there a profit on it?

CAMERON: I paid income tax on the dividends. But there was a profit on it, but it was less than the capital gains tax allowance. So I didn't pay

capital gains tax, but it was subject to all the U.K. taxes in all the normal ways.


QUEST: Pope Francis is to visit the Aegean Islands, in Greece, a week from Saturday, aiming to draw attention to the migrant crisis. The system in

place that returns migrants to Turkey that's aimed at reducing the strain on Greece, well, the Turkey/E.U. deal is controversial, at best, but it is

underway now, and it remains to be seen how it's going to work. The Governor of the South Aegean Islands is George Hatzimarkos, he's with me

here in New York. Sir, good to see you.


QUEST: We'll talk about your industry and your tourism in a moment. Let's talk about the crisis at the moment.

HATZIMARKOS: The refugee crisis.

QUEST: The refugee crisis. How bad is it going to be this summer?

HATZIMARKOS: I don't think it's going to get worse. The deal between E.U. and Turkey is being implemented. On Monday, we had the first 202 people

deported back to Turkey. It's not an easy job to do. It's not an easy situation. And I'm very optimistic that this deal is going to work. It's

a very difficult deal. We have also issued technical issues, legal issues, it's a tricky job, right? But I think this summer, 2016, things are going

to be pretty cooled down.

QUEST: Of the number of people coming across or that are still there, or that are still in Greece --

HATZIMARKOS: Yes, something like 60,000 people.

QUEST: How many eventually will have to repatriate?

HATZIMARKOS: All. The goal is to repatriate all of them, right. This is why E.U. had the vote.

QUEST: But I mean that would allow them to move. But some will be legitimate refugees, asylum seekers.

HATZIMARKOS: I would be, right.


HATZIMARKOS: Yes. That's why I told you that we have legal issues in this agreement, also. I believe that the majority of these people are going to

be deported.

QUEST: And it will be back to Turkey or back straight to --

HATZIMARKOS: Back to Turkey or back straight to the countries, even if Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan.

QUEST: Are you preparing, though, because for a massive new wave, once the weather improves, as it is now, are you preparing for a massive wave more

to come across?

HATZIMARKOS: No, actually not, because I think they got a very clear message, that they don't have to risk their lives, they don't need to risk

their lives in the sea. And they don't have to spend money they have to the smugglers, to cross borders and go where. The borders north of Greece

are closed. So Greece is not a country that somebody wants to stay in.

QUEST: Let's turn to more pleasant matters, if there are such things.

HATZIMARKOS: There are pleasant matters, Richard.

QUEST: You've got a booming tourism economy. You've managed to keep the numbers up. Lord knows how considering the economic problems that the

country faces, but --

HATZIMARKOS: And the lord knows how. He gave -- lord gave us the most beautiful islands in the world. The most warm sun. It's always sun.

QUEST: But you're going to have problems with the IMF this year. There's going to problems with the economy again.

HATZIMARKOS: Are you going to go on vacations this summer? Are you going to go on vacation this summer?

QUEST: Are you my guide?

HATZIMARKOS: The IMF is there. It's going there. Even when you come back from your vacation and the stability in the whole planet -- is the whole

planet stable? Problems are going to be there. Your problems are going to be there. Your countries problems are going to be there. Global problems

are going to be there. You need a week, two weeks, how, you need some days under the sun in a quiet place or not quiet place. You need good life?

You need nightlife? You need good food?

QUEST: Are you trying to sell me something?

HATZIMARKOS: No, I'm not trying to sell you something. I'm trying to prove to you that whatever you're looking for in your summertime, it's in

the Greek Aegean Islands. That's it. Problems are going to be there. Just enjoy your time, the days you have. You'll be back. You'll spend the

time in the most safe place in the world?

QUEST: You'll join me there?

HATZIMARKOS: We'll wait for you. QUEST: You'll join me there.

HATZIMARKOS: Yes, of course. And I'll prove to you this is the place to be. The Aegean Islands.

QUEST: Thank you.

The secretary general of the African National Congress has warned that the rest of the party not to undermine Jacob Zuma. The South African President

is under pressure under a court ruling found him guilty of misusing public money on his private estate. Joining me now from Johannesburg, Ronnie

Kasrils, the former South African Intelligence Minister. Sir, it is good to see you. Thank you. You believe that it is time for the President to

resign, to go quietly, before he's pushed out?

[16:35:00] RONNIE KASRILS, FORMER MINISTER, SOUTH AFRICAN INTELLIGENCE SERVICES: Along with a multitude of people in South Africa, absolutely,


There's a very critical situation here. He's abused his oath to uphold the constitution and the pressures are mounting. There's been a litany of

events over a number of years, virtually since he became President and it's just one big error after another, flagrant errors, in fact, scandalized the

country. And the latest one is just too far in terms of the constitutional court's ruling recently.

QUEST: If he doesn't go as a result of the constitutional judges basically saying he has failed in his duty, then it's arguably, nothing's going to

get rid of him, except the ANC itself, as it did last time with the previous president. What's it going to take the ANC to ditch Zuma?

KASRILS: Of course, the constitutional court couldn't rule that he had to go, and that essentially led to a vote of no confidence in parliament with

the ANC, with its vast majority was bound to him. And it is for the ANC, but there's a dissension within the ANC and there's huge public pressure on

the ANC by civil society, by trade unions, by religious leaders, by affiliates in relation to civil society positions and of course that's

public opinion. That's mounting the pressure and the ANC is engaged in hectic damage limitation, threatening those within the ANC members from

breaking with the ANC in terms of criticizing him and saying he must go. And that includes the former esteemed finance minister, a former deputy

general, secretary of the ANC, and many others.

QUEST: But what will it take? What I'm trying to understand is, the ANC has rebelled and ditched a president before. So what would it take now,

what will -- what fear has to come into the ANC for them to finally give Jacob Zuma the proverbial, you know, pistol and tell him to go out and do

the honorable thing?

KASRILS: Yes, well, the people he's placed in position around him, in cabinet and in his national executive committee owe a lot to him in terms

of the patronage and posts and what they gained from it. So it they are standing firm and laying the law down. I actually don't believe that the

ANC will get to the position at this point in time and tell him to take the walk. It's going to take more than that, but it's essential that civil

society makes its voice heard. And there are people receptive to this in the ANC. But it's a snowball process. And we've got local elections is

coming up in a number of months. The ANC is bound to drop in support, I think, by 8 to 10 percent. That might shake up grandees in the ANC, and

the membership, who will eventually realize what a liability he is. However, it is quite possible that he will last until the next elections,

which is in 2017, for the ANC, 2019 for the party. But it's actually beside the point. The key thing is that the public must make its voice

heard. There's huge mobilization in this respect. And we're hoping that it's going to tell within the ANC itself.

QUEST: Sir, thank you for joining us. I'll be in South Africa next month. Look forward to catching up with you. Thank you, sir.

KASRILS: We'll see you.

QUEST: Now, economists have been taking scissors to their U.S. growth forecasts. And the head of the IMF says the problem isn't uniquely

American. But the situation is getting worse and we'll talk about it, after the break. It's QUEST MEANS BUSINESS.


QUEST: The worst loss in six weeks. Dow was off 174 points. We don't need to worry too much about it, because it's very difficult to say why

today the market should suddenly turn turtle. But if we look at the bigger picture, the head of the IMF, Christine Lagarde, says there's a most

peculiar set of risks now facing the global economy. She was speaking at the Women in the World Summit here in New York, when Christine Lagarde said

we should expect growth forecasts to be cut and the risks are now more global than ever.


CHRISTINE LAGARDE, MANAGING DIRECTOR, IMF: What is very peculiar about the current situation is that those risks, the geopolitical as well as the pure

economic risks. They are completely without borders. So, what happens in one country is going to have ripple effects in other countries.


QUEST: Mohammad El-Erian, is Chief economic Adviser at Allianz, and joins me now from North California. Good to see you, sir. I can't decide

whether to do Panama Papers or global risk. We'll go global risk first and finish off with a bit of Panama Papers. This global risk, all week,

Mohammad, we have seen private forecasting, and I'm sure your own, cutting growth. We saw the Atlanta fed do it, the various banks do it. What are

you now forecasting for U.S. growth this year?

MOHAMED EL-ERIAN, CHIEF ECONOMIC ADVISER, ALLIANZ: So I think in the U.S. will grow at 2 to 2.5 percent. But what's worrisome is that will be the

bright spot. Japan and Europe will continue to struggle. Russia and Brazil have going to be in recession, and you basically have no strong

locomotive to join the U.S. in powering the global economy. So this is a global economy that's not just slowing down, but it's becoming more


QUEST: Where will we start to see evidence of that instability erupting?

EL-ERIAN: In the market place. There's been two things that markets have been very comforted by in the last few years. One is that while growth has

been low, at least it was stable. Now the risk is to the downside on both elements. And the second is that markets have been very confident that

central banks have their back covered. That central banks have come in and repress volatility. That's been questioned as well. You first see it in

market volatility and then you will see it in certain segments that are doing very strange things. For example, what is the yen doing at 108

against the dollar? You're going to start seeing some improbable become reality.

QUEST: Talking about improbable and reality, let's jump to the Panama Papers. Look, we're men of the world, men and women of the world on QUEST

MEANS BUSINESS. We know, offshore bank accounts exist. We know that most cases their used for legitimate purposes, but they may be unethical. What

do you think is going to be the longer term fallout of this?

EL-ERIAN: We're going to see three things. One is, we're going to see a renewed effort to combat not just illegal tax activity, but also tax

avoidance. What is legal, but what you call unethical. So you're going to see governments coming after that. To make sure that tax avoidance gets

reduced. Second, you're going to see certain political disruptions. I don't think Iceland is the only case where governments are going to come

under pressure. But most importantly, Richard, this is going to add to the general frustration with established parties. And it comes on top of other

things. Look what happened in the Netherlands over the referendum.

[16:45:00] The citizens went against what their government had proposed. Look what's happening in this country, in terms of the Republican

establishment, trying to line up behind Cruz. People are questioning whether the established parties are up to the task of managing what is a

much more complicated economic, social, and political environment.

QUEST: We'll talk about, there's plenty there to keep us talking you and I as we head towards an election later this year. Good to see you, sir.

Looking well. Nice to see you.

EL-ERIAN: Thank you.

QUEST: Now, in a moment, it was a special "CNN MONEY" investigation, into one of the biggest scams in history. We're going on the hunt to find the

woman who may be behind this extraordinary scam. Well, you're familiar. It's not as it seems. Maria Duval, who is or was or who maybe never

existed, Maria Duval.


QUEST: Tonight, the final chapter of a "CNN MONEY" investigation. It's a scam that targets the sick and elderly and cheated people out of more than

$200 million. The face of the con, well arguably, it's this lady, Maria Duvall. So far, Maria Duvall has remained elusive to investigators who

don't even know if she even exists. CNN Money's Blake Ellison and Melanie Hicken, went to France to try and find Maria Duvall.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): The elderly French psychic, Maria Duvall, is accused by the U.S. government of being the face of more than

$200 million mail fraud scheme. Duvall's face and name have been on millions of letters sent around the world promising good fortune to those

who pay for psychic guidance. We needed to speak with the woman herself, so we went to France. A tiny town of less than 2,000 people. Someone here

must know her. We asked around.

WIND SHOP OWNER (in French): She's a one ever sees.

GROCERY CLERK (in French): I've lived here for 33 years. I've worked in the store for 10, and I've never heard of this woman.

MEN AT BAR (in French): Yes, that's her. Yes, she is the psychic we never see.

RESTAURANT OWNER (in French): Personally I don't know her. Physically I've never seen her. She's lived here a while. But she's discreet.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): So she had been famous for being a psychic, but how did her name get on all those letters? Back at our hotel,

we called the closest people to her we could find. And when we spoke with Duvall's sister, she seemed shocked to hear about these letters.

JULIA JONES, CNN RESEARCHER: I mean, she was appalled. She's like, I can't believe that they're doing this. And when I said, look, they're

sending letters. They say, I have great visions for you, and then they ask for money, and she was like, that's a scam.

BLAKE ELLIS, CNN MONEY, INVESTIGATIONS: She said, "that's a scam."

JONES: She said, "That's a scam."

MELANIE HICKEN, CNN MONEY, INVESTIGATIONS: So Maria Duvall's sister called the letters a scam.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): We talked to so many people, her family members, her gardener, her business manager, even the man who installed her

pool. But Maria Duvall remained as elusive as ever.

[16:50:00] ELLIS: We can't find her. We can't get to her. There are so many layers kind of guarding her. She's still the mysterious psychic that

we just can't get to.

HICKEN: Even when we're in her town, even when we're in front of her house --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): We were told Duvall herself wouldn't speak with us. But we had to try anyway.

JONES: Hello, bonjour.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): As quickly as the gate opened, it closed.


JONES (in French): Hello, I'm looking for Madame Maria Duval.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMEN (in French): No. She's not here at the moment. What do you want?

JONES (in French): We're journalist and we have questions for her.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMEN (in French): Madame Duval is in Rome at the moment.

JONES (in French): Sorry, I couldn't hear you because of the cars.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMEN (in French): I can't open the doors because of the dogs. Excuse me. I was on the phone.

JONES (in French): OK. What's your name, Madame? Just to know who I spoke to. Hello? Madame?

UNIDENTIFIED WOMEN: Was it Maria Duvall?

UNIDENTIFIED WOMEN (voice-over): It wasn't. Whether she was avoiding us, away on vacation, or too sick to be interviewed, we'll never know. What we

do know is that Maria Duvall really exists. And her name is like a runaway train. It could continue long after the real Maria Duvall is gone,

especially if people keep getting rich from it.


QUEST: What a brilliant report. "CNN MONEY's" Blake Ellis and Melanie Hicken join me now. Melanie is in Los Angeles, Blake is in Denver,

Colorado. Colleagues, look, let me just get straight to the heart of this. Is it your view that she exists as a single person? We'll discuss in a

second whether or not what she's up to. Blake, you first.

ELLIS: Yes, it is our view that she exists. And I know last time we were talking to on your show, we weren't sure if she existed. Even

investigators didn't know whether she was a real person. But we have determined that she is a living, breathing woman in France. And by going

to France, that just further confirmed everything that we had discovered from reporting in New York, and we talked to so many people in town, who

knew about her and even talked to her family members who confirmed that.

QUEST: Now, Melanie, bearing that in mind and what we've seen, are people riding on the back of Maria Duvall's name? And all these scam letters are

not necessarily, we don't know whether she's involved with them, or not, whether the allegation is true. But there's an entire industry riding on

the name, Maria Duvall?

HICKEN: Well, there are so many businesses and businessmen, yes, that have made money off of these letters. But one of the big revelations we came to

in France was, when we spoke with her son, her son did acknowledge that he says his mother sold the rights to her name several decades ago, to a group

of Swiss businessmen, and that after selling those rights, she lost control of how it was being used. He does acknowledge that he was paid for those

rights at one point, but he claims that all of these businessmen made far more money off of these letters than his mother did.

QUEST: So, look, I don't know, what's your gut feeling, Blake? What's your gut feeling about this? Are there people sitting around the world,

sending out scam letters, bringing in money, and in many ways, the innocent in all of this might be, might be, just might be, Maria Duvall herself?

ELLIS: Yes, well, to be clear, we do not think that Maria Duvall is innocent in all of this. She definitely was involved in the beginning, we

know from her son that she signed contracts and she has received money from this. But it does seem like her name and her image have completely gone

beyond her control and that businessmen have been taking advantage of her. And we do believe there is a whole network of businessmen out there who are

continuing to perpetrate this scheme and sending all kinds of letters, all over the world, claiming to be from Maria Duvall herself, even though her

son says that she has never written one of these letters herself.

The journalist endeavors of Blake Ellis and Melanie Hicken, I am awaiting with eagerness your next assignment, wherever we're going to send you

around the world. Bring us another good story. That's what we need to hear more of. Thank you. Now, we will have a Profitable Moment after the



Tonight's Profitable Moment. There is something refreshing about the way Jeff Immelt of GE fired back against Bernie Sanders and the same with Mark

Fields of Ford fired back against Donald Trump. Politicians make claims, acquisitions and in some cases without any basis of fact or with just the

scintilla of truth somewhere around the edge. CEOs do not enjoy that luxury when defending their results and that's what we saw today. Jeffrey

Immelt, who is actually running the company that is turning itself from a manufacturing giant to a technology leader was quite right to fire back.

He basically made it clear you don't mess with GE when it comes to bringing things to life.

And that's QUEST MEANS BUSINESS for tonight. I'm Richard Quest in New York. Whatever you're up to in the hours ahead, I hope it's profitable.

Let's do it again tomorrow.