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Bernie Sanders Believes There Will Be Open Convention for Democrats; Ted Cruz Scrutiny for Remarks on New Yorker Values; Pope Francis Issued An Official Statement To Divorced Catholics. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired April 08, 2016 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00] HEATHER MACDONALD: The police go where the crime is. They wish they could not need to neighborhoods. But they're there to save lives, not to oppress people.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: Heather McDonald and Marc Lamont Hill --

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: That's simply not true --

BALDWIN: We have to leave it.

HILL: Can we come back and talk about this?

BALDWIN: We can come back. I want you here. I want you both here. Thank you both very much.

MACDONALD: Thank you.

BALDWIN: In the race on both sides here, Republicans, Democrats, the candidates are trying to prove one is more New York than the other. The most populous borough in the city is both the birthplace of Bernie Sanders and headquarters of the Clinton campaign. Clinton, long expected to win her home state, but Sanders mobilization of young diverse voters opens the opportunity to keep his campaign afloat and embarrass the front-runner. Then you have Donald Trump with his ubiquitous New York name, predicting hl own primary sweep.

Joining me now Michael Smerconish who is with me. Nice to see you.

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN HOST, MICHAEL SMERCONISH SHOW: How are you?

BALDWIN: Sorry.

SMERCONISH: You solved the last one, let's get on to this.

BALDWIN: Got a lot more on that. We'll get back to that again.

First of all, on the Democratic sided, you know, this notion that now the Bernie Sanders camp is saying it will be an open convention, you agree?

SMERCONISH: No, not unless he continues to win with an increased margin and pulls off an enormous surprise in New York. And then I think you start to see pressure brought to bear on the superdelegates. You know, what occurs to me is that the Superdelegates have been much maligned particularly by Bernie Sanders supporters in this election like what gives them the right. And yet on the Republican side of the aisle, I think many Republicans wish they had more of a Superdelegate influence because the purpose of those Superdelegates is to avert an election catastrophe, you know, come November. And after the Ds were blown out on a couple of occasion, they instituted bringing in those quote/unquote "professionals." Republicans now look forward and say, hey, we could use this thing if it's Donald Trump and 73 percent of women. Look at him with disapproval. So it's interesting to see they wish they had that influence is my point.

BALDWIN: What do you think Ted Cruz means when he talks about New York values?

SMERCONISH: You know, Brooke, today on radio for an hour, we played the tape, we opened the phone lines. It is the poll question today at my Web site. And you know, on one hand, do you give him the benefit of doubt? And is it just classic liberalism to him or is it an anti- Semitic trop? A third of my audience, those who have voted I think about a thousand so far, were in the later category, saying they see it as anti-Semitism.

I want to be fair to him. Maybe he just said something that was boneheaded, maybe he just misspoke, but why did he use the words "money and media" is what I really want to know because it was OK up until then. When he was sort of going through a check list of those things that he associates with New York liberalism. And then all of a sudden when he talked money, and when he talked media, I said, wait, my antenna is up. That doesn't sound right. It sounds more like dog whistle that is intended to placate a small but they are out there, part of the party to the (INAUDIBLE) of New Yorkers. He is not going to win New York.

BALDWIN: Well, I mean, I was going to say so he is trailing, you know. And then you look at Trump's number, it is in a massive, massive for the primary next weekend here. And so, now with Donald Trump's new strategy with Mr. Manafort and as this convention managers, you have Corey Lewandowski, his campaign manager. Manafort is the convention manager and ultimately trumping the bus. What does it make of that strategy in thinking ahead of states and the delegates in hiring him?

SMERCONISH: So, I watched Chris' interview this morning on "NEW DAY." I thought it was fascinating. My takeaway was that Donald Trump has recognized the limitations of being in so control of this enterprise at the stage and they needed to bring in an adult, you know, a weathered veteran because that is what you are getting in Manafort, the guy who has been there before, who can count noses and put together the coalition.

It just stands to reason that they will be butting heads, his effort emanating from Washington D.C. and that was just been coming out of the Trump tower thus far. But, you know, Trump's greatest asset so far has been the good ear that he has, his ability to tap into audiences, not go to a focus group, not poll, not listen to advisers, but all of a sudden, at this stage where it is within his grasp, it becomes a limitation. And so, I think it was probably wise of Trump to recognize he needed someone like this.

BALDWIN: Got to thank you because I got to Belgium.

SMERCONISH: Sure.

BALDWIN: Michael Smerconish, 9:00 a.m. Saturday morning to watch.

Meantime, the Belgium, in the wake of these two big captures believed to be tied to Paris and Brussels.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): -- put into operations 3rd of October 2015 in Germany. These inquiries continuing at speed in order to verify whether (INAUDIBLE) and the second person arrested at the metro stations, these people would not just in company with (INAUDIBLE) just before the attack.

Moreover, these people were filmed in Brussels with the bags that were used at the time of the attack of the airport in Brussels. This afternoon, (INAUDIBLE) was also arrested at (INAUDIBLE) as well as two other people who were deprive their freedom. Their fingerprints and DNA were identified in different places, in particular the (INAUDIBLE) and others as well as one of clear cut that was used during the Paris attacks.

(INAUDIBLE) subjects of a search, as you know, relative to the Paris attacks November 13th 2015. He was noticed on the 11th of November around 7:00 p.m. together with Salah Abdeslam on the (INAUDIBLE) the direction of Paris.

Or moreover, (INAUDIBLE) were seen driving together just before the attacks. And in flats where the suicide bombers stayed before the attacks. This inquiry is continuing to determine whether (INAUDIBLE) was the third person present at the Brussels national airport attacks named as the man with the hat.

So, the legal actions are continuing very actively. At this stage, we cannot communicate anymore details. Other details will follow in particular from tomorrow.

[15:37:09] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

BALDWIN: All right. So, as we are watching this press conference among the Belgium authorities, that Buck Sexton with me. We both were listening, former CIA counterterrorism analyst here.

And really, what we heard first off was what we had already - what had already been reported with regard to one of these two men captured (INAUDIBLE), the man authorities believed was that third individual at the airport in Brussels in the light jacket and the dark hat. What do we know about him?

BUCK SEXTON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: (INAUDIBLE) that he is actually a Belgian and he also had a brother who fought and died with the Islamic State. And most notably for this case, he is believed to have been alongside Salah Abdeslam, currently in custody when he drove or driving a few days before the Paris attacks into France. So everything lines up here both in terms of the background you would expect of a jihadist, somebody who has personal connections, a brother who fought in a jihad in Syria. It is also thought that he was in, perhaps, in Syria, they can't prove it but it looks like though, he was in Turkey about a year ago. So everything lines up it for these to be the individual that we have been looking for. They have been looking for rather in Belgium. And it seems like this is yet another critical step in the case, because you have another individual in custody who can begin to fill in the authorities --

BALDWIN: To talk, hopefully.

SEXTON: Not just -- this is essential, too, not just perhaps who is in perhaps Belgium, France, in the Molenbeek neighborhood in Brussels, but the pipeline itself. To understand the facilitators along the way because there could be operational cells. As we know, there is the concern that there might be other individuals who accelerate the planning. That is what happened in Brussels, right.

BALDWIN: He was captured on a Friday and then Brussels happened on a Tuesday.

SEXTON: So everybody knows that this is a positive step but no means a time for any kind of celebration on the part of law enforcement. They have to actually redouble their efforts to make sure that they try to get any operational leads they can. Maybe he talk, maybe he doesn't if he has a cell phone on there. There are a lot of things they can do to try to look and see who is he been talk to, who is he been in contact with.

Bu also, beyond the imminent threat of an operational cell which is you know, in the past, one is very real and it did result in a mass casualty attack in Brussels. There's the facilitator network. There is how did the individuals - how are individuals that perhaps aren't even necessarily tied to this cell getting into Europe once they have trained with the Islamic state because as you know that makes them much more dangerous. They pick up the trade craft, the communication skills, everything they need to pull off these kinds of attacks.

So hopefully, they will help the authorities and that's of course an open question because how do you get somebody who is probably facing life in prison to talk, but hopefully they will get information that's very helpful in preventing further attacks.

BALDWIN: You know, I was talking to a law enforcement analyst earlier in the hour and he was saying to me one real possibilities since there's two of them that as they are being interrogated, information that one is given could be used with the other. They could sort of pit the two against one another, and that could benefit law enforcement in getting information.

[15:35:11] SEXTON: That's absolutely correct. And it's a very helpful tool during the interrogation process because it gives you a way of immediately figuring out if somebody's essentially blowing smoke. If they're telling you things that are false, the story's not going to line up with the other guy. You get them in separate room. I mean, this is sort of even in old police movies you'll see this kind of thing. But it is relevant to counterterrorism investigations as well because the last sketch out the network. Perhaps they'll leave out an individual. And then the other guy thinks, well, I'll leave out this other individual. And then you start to sort of put the puzzle pieces together that way. So having two in custody is very helpful as a means of vetting information, seeing what the gaps are. But the huge concern that I know they have right now in Brussels and in France is does this mean that somebody else knows that their days are numbered and so they're just going for the attack right now.

BALDWIN: What about the other individual? So we've been talking about Mohamed Abrini who Belgian authorities believe was the person in the hat and the light jacket at the airport. Then there's Osama Krayem, went by a different name. We see here, this black and white photo that was released of him a bit ago. And there is some sort of connection with the subway plot in Brussels.

SEXTON: Yes, he's believed to have been a part of that, and he also has personal connection into Abrini and into the Abdeslam brothers. He was born in Sweden. It's thought that he went to train with the Islamic state and came back. Interesting that this would be -- this is somebody of a Swedish citizenship involved in one of these plots. I believe it's one the first times we have seen that connection into the Paris and Brussels terror nexus such as it is. As (INAUDIBLE), this guy while he is not necessarily the mastermind, we don't really know, right. I mean, we sort of like to line these individuals up and say who is the logistics planner, who was the facilitator, who was at the head of this pyramid, the one instructing everybody else? All it takes is a guy who has training with the Islamic state who has access to weapons who has the knowledge to make explosives like TATP and they may decide to go off on their own and conduct a one-man attack. So his knowledge of operational cells and other individuals that could be involve might be he, might be central. We just - we don't know quite as much about him as we do about Abrini at this point.

BALDWIN: How many people are left? Is it even possible to know that answer?

SEXTON: Well, you start to feel like this is a situation where the surgeon has gone in knowing that there is cancer and keeps finding more. And on the one hand, that's positive because you are trying to, you know, you're trying to get it all out. But on the other side of it, the more you find, the more worried you are it could be elsewhere. And that's really the truth of this kind of a terrorist network. When you have such a large number of individuals involved. First of all, we're not even really talking the cluster, the people around them who knew what was going on, maybe gave them a little bit of assistance, criminal acts that wouldn't rise to terrorism per see but also gives you a sense of the extension or some radicalization beyond just the people that were involved in the attacks. They have no way of knowing right now how many individuals are actually actively plotting this kind of attack in Europe. The European intelligence agencies who have not been made to look particularly on the ball recently, particularly the one -- particularly Brussels.

BALDWIN: Despite these captures.

SEXTON: Despite these captures. And people will say the capture was slow when it comes after mass casualty attack has already happened. But in fairness, they have tracked down some of these individuals. But looking at the size and scope of the network, every time we find one of these individuals, it's likely there were others that were working with him in some capacity, that along the way, especially if he did transit along the migrant route which is possible for Krayem in particular.

BALDWIN: Actually, I believe we were talking to one of our analysts who was saying, indeed, he did come through Greece with the refugees.

SEXTON: Right. That's what's believed right now. And so, Krayem came through the migrant route. That will mean that it's very possible there were others who either travel with him or when he was with the Islamic state, he knew were preparing to travel back. They set up classrooms. They actually teach people how you get around. How you speak to border agents for example to get through. What is your story? They are not necessarily doing it one on one. So he might have known who else was in that specialized jihadist training for plots against Europe.

BALDWIN: Buck Sexton, thank you.

SEXTON: Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Quick break. Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:48:40] BALDWIN: In a world of a little bit of stress, let's all take a moment to exhale. This is the next episode of "THE WONDER LIST." And this time, CNN's Bill Weir takes us to the (INAUDIBLE) to the tiny country of Bhutan, a place rich in beauty where happiness is actually goal number one.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL WEIR, CNN HOST, THE WONDER LIST: This is a modern fairy tale. Complete with kings and queens and dragons. It takes place in a real life Shangri-La where wealth is not measured in gold, but something called gross national happiness.

Welcome to Bhutan. A land of 740,000 serene monks and upbeat farmers and dancing archers, living in pristine forests and valleys, hidden from the world for centuries by roadblocks known as the Himalayas. But that was once upon a time. Today the roads are opening. Coming. And all of this is at risk of massive change.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Bill Weir, the man who has the best job at CNN. I keep it real.

[15:35:05] WEIR: I have it on the business card. BALDWIN: Gross national happiness. Like that is legit a thing there?

WEIR: It is legit a thing. When there was a young boy king, 17-year- old king, he took the crown. He came to the United Nations and a journalist, really, said you're the king of a national country? What's your gross national product? And I said I would prefer to measure it in gross national happiness. And since that, King, he just grew up. I went to his 60th birthday party. His son is not a king. But he took off his crown and gave the power to the people. He turned Bhutan into a constitutional monarchy. They said we don't want to vote. We want you to take care of us. And of course, I mean, he knew the only way they would survive this little country stuck between China and India is to maintain their culture. This amazing culture, this amazing nature that they have and this idea of happiness. Very shrewd. And he only work if the people figured out how to make themselves happy.

BALDWIN: Did I read a thing that you appeared in front of the camera without pants?

WEIR: No, I was wearing the traditional -- I call that Wednesday. But in this case it was the traditional (INAUDIBLE). They wear these robes, they have a very handsome raw silk robes because they have a national dress code. Jeans and t-shirts are against the law there during business hours because they are really trying to preserve this. So it's a place where people are just moon-eyed over their king but not in a creepy way. If this was North Korea this would be a much different story. So we are trying to go there, see how long this can last and it also see when it comes to happiness, what do they know that we don't?

BALDWIN: I want in on that.

WEIR: We have pursuit of happiness in the declaration of happiness but they just chased it in a whole different way.

BALDWIN: Bill Weir, newest episode of "THE WONDER LIST" Sunday night 9:00 eastern right here on CNN. Thank you.

WEIR: Thanks much.

BALDWIN: And now two major headlines involving the Pope today. One of them including Bernie Sanders. More on that in a moment.

But first, Pope Francis issued an official statement. It is a big deal in the realm of the Catholic Church. But as for light inside of Catholic Church, believers won't necessarily see any sweeping changes, though, many worldwide are heartened by the Pope's welcoming words to divorced Catholics.

So Bill Donahue, let me bring you in, president of the Catholic league. Nice to see you, sir.

BILL DONOHUE, PRESIDENT, CATHOLIC LEAGUE: Thank you for having me.

BALDWIN: So with what the Pope has just done, what he's written in this proclamation, how will life change for divorced Catholics?

DONOHUE: Well, I think what the Pope is saying is that the nuclear family is not just the only family, we have got to get beyond that. A lot of Catholics live in irregular situations and there are a lot of Catholics who are good Catholics who did yet did remarry without getting an annulment. He does not want to treat them with disdain and with contempt. He is not changing the bar in the Catholic Church. What he is trying to do is to try and help everybody clear the bar. There's a difference there.

So what he is saying is that on a pastoral level, on a one-on-one level, the priests need to minister to these people and see what they can do to kind of bring them back into the fold. So while not a single church teaching has been changed, it's very clear that he's saying we can't just have a black and white kind of condition. There's no GPS theological device that answers every difficult situation.

BALDWIN: On politics, what about Bernie Sanders? Because we know he will be hopping a plane somewhere between our Brooklyn debate, you know, next Thursday and the big primary here in New York, he will be going to Vatican City. Why?

DONOHUE: Well, good for Bernie. I mean, there's a pontifical committee out there that deals with social justice issues and he is certainly will be welcomed, as he should. He is a good man. He and the church don't agree on (INAUDIBLE) and family and issues like that. And nothing that the Pope said changes anything on that. Gay marriage got no recognition whatsoever. But he might find some simpatico when it comes to income inequality and things of that nature. I think he'll be welcome, as he should be. He is a decent human being.

BALDWIN: How do these invites go down? What does an invite from the Pope look like, Bill?

DONOHUE: Well, in this particular case, you have a lot of different commissions over there and committees that deal with peace and justice. They deal with moral issues and the like. So it's not unlike -- it's not, you know, breaking new ground when you bring in people who might on one level look like they don't have much in common. After all, the mayor of the city of New York, who I believe is much to the left of Bernie Sanders, he was actually invited too. That raised some eyebrows, including my own.

BALDWIN: Bill Donohue, thank you very much.

DONOHUE: Thank you.

BALDWIN: We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:58:53] BALDWIN: When you think of San Diego, you perhaps might envision beaches, parks and perfect weather. But for thousands of children now life isn't paradise. (INAUDIBLE) county, nearly one in five kids was in poverty. And for them, the ocean is a world away. And that where Shara Fisler, this week's CNN hero steps in.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHARA FISLER, CNN HERO: When they're in the third grade and they come on our field trip, they come over the hill on the bus and they see the ocean and they gasp, because it's literally the first time many of them have ever seen the ocean. It's a place of discovery to really explore their own potential in science all through studying the ocean.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Every year, Shara's group helps 6,000 children become explorers.

I want to always remind you when we introduce you to these phenomenal men and women. If you know someone who should be a CNN hero, you can nominate them. And to learn more about these CNN heroes, go to CNNheroes.com. While there, of course, nominate someone who you believe has it to be the 2016 CNN hero.

Thank you so much for being here in New York. I'm going to send you a tad early to Jake Tapper. "THE LEAD" starts right now.

[16:00:07] JAKE TAPPER, CNN CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Two major terrorists, terror arrests and potentially a huge step in stopping the next attack.

"THE LEAD" starts right now.