Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Trump War with Party; Carson Aide to Black Voters; Kelly Visits Trump. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired April 13, 2016 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[14:00:00] TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Could be supporters out there who may yet want to push a free set of Kasich steak knives or maybe a Cruz cruise, or maybe even a Trump helicopter tour to win over those last delegate votes.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: That's it for me now. Thank you for watching. The news continues right now.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Here we go. Thank you so much for being with me. I'm Brooke Baldwin. You, of course, are watching CNN.

And Donald Trump is now at war with the Republican Party officially. We'll use it again today, his rage against the party machine has developed into a direct attack against the party leader, the chairman of the Republican National Committee, Reince Priebus. Trump told "The Hill" newspaper that Priebus, quote, "should be ashamed of himself" because he knows what's going on. Trump was talking about what he calls the rigged system that he believes led to his loss in Colorado, not by popular vote but by a state convention of delegates. And Trump flat out said in a CNN town hall with his own family, here at CNN, that the Republican Party does not want him to be the presidential nominee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: But I know that it's stacked against me by the establishment. We had a lot of delegates and they were not heard because the Republican Party out there was 100 percent probably controlled by the RNC.

And they changed the rules a number of months ago. The people in -

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: About eight months ago.

TRUMP: The - well, that's not very long ago.

COOPER: But you had a lot of time to prepare a better organization.

TRUMP: You know why they changed the rules? Because they saw how I was doing and they didn't like it.

COOPER: You're saying that you don't think the RNC wants you to get the nomination?

TRUMP: No, I don't think so. I really don't. I mean I have a feeling - COOPER: And you think they're actively working against you on (INAUDIBLE)?

TRUMP: I don't know. I mean, I don't see it. It's not like it's - I have 15 miles of proof.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So that was Trump last night on CNN. Here is the response now from Reince Priebus via Twitter. Quote, "nomination process known for a year and beyond. It is the responsibility of the campaigns to understand it. Complaints now? Give us all a break."

So, once again, an already unprecedented presidential election breaking the mold. The frontrunner Republican for president was in a fight with the head of the RNC fewer than 100 days from the national convention.

So, let's go to a man who has been in Reince Priebus' seat. He is Jim Gilmore. He served as the chairman for the Republican National Committee in 2001. He was also a member of this crop of candidates here who would have liked to have become president and is a former governor of Virginia.

So, Governor Gilmore, nice to see you.

JIM GILMORE (R), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Thank you, Brooke. Nice to see you.

BALDWIN: Have you ever seen anything like this shaping up, this sort of war between a candidate and the party?

GILMORE: No, I haven't. I - you know, I think that, you know, Reince Priebus is not going to be able to control this. This is being controlled by the primary process. And Trump's done very well in the primary process. So, you know, I don't think that this is the problem that Reince Priebus has created or the RNC has created. They've created a lot of other problems, but not this one.

BALDWIN: I want to come back to you on Reince Priebus in a second, but I understand you have said you actually truly believe that Donald Trump will ultimately hit that magic number and arrive at that nomination. Tell me why you think that.

GILMORE: Well, I'm guessing, but he's done very, very well. He's the leader by a lot. I mean I think's he going to do well in his home state of New York. It - I - you know, my view is that based on my experience, if you get into the convention with a broad - most of the delegates, you're going to be able to negotiate your way on - all the way across the top.

But, who knows? Cruz may be close enough to be able to deadlock the convention, together with Rubio and Kasich and all those guys and, you know, it could end up very interesting.

BALDWIN: Hang on, Governor, you say most of the delegates. So let's say - let's - this is all, obviously, the what if game. But if Trump, on that first ballot, comes within, I don't know, 100 or 50 delegates, do you think they will give it to him? Because I've talked to folks who say, no way, Jose, the rules are the rules.

GILMORE: Well, the rules are the rules. And the rules say that Donald Trump, at that point, can go out into the delegations. And as the person who is the most likely candidate can actually begin to make the deals and negotiate his way to the extra delegates to get there.

Look, this is just my guess.

BALDWIN: Sure.

GILMORE: It could be that the rest of the way it comes out a little different, but that's my hunch anyway.

BALDWIN: Do you - knowing the process as well as you do, is there truth to what Donald Trump has said, the fact that he is arguing the system is rigged?

GILMORE: No, I don't think the system's rigged. I think that the - look, I have a great deal of issues with the RNC about the primary process, about their interaction with the network television people, about the outsourcing of the debates. I've been on the record that I've got real problems with that. But I don't think that they've rigged the rules. The rules are the rules.

Now, it's going to get real interesting when we get to the convention and they try to change those rules around. I don't think either Cruz or Trump want that. If they do that, then that's going to create some sense of anger, I think, in the convention. It's going to be a real interesting convention for you guys to cover.

BALDWIN: Do you - I agree. I'm sitting next to a couple of people who would nod their heads as well. Straight up, do you think bridges have been burned here?

[14:05:00] GILMORE: Yes, I think that the process has made it very, very hard because of the way that this has gone. I think that the bridge to the presidency has been burned down. But on the other hand, Hillary Clinton is so bad, and, you know, if you talk about a bridge being burned down across the river, there's something down in the river, and that's an alligator, and it's called Hillary Clinton. And we've got to figure out -

BALDWIN: Hillary Clinton is the alligator in this metaphor.

GILMORE: Yes, she's the alligator. We've got to figure out how to get across this river, even though the bridge has been burned because she's the one that really should not be the president of the United States. Her foreign policy is terrible. Her integrity is terrible because of the e-mail issue, because of the Clinton Foundation. So she should not be president of the United States. And I'm doing everything I can do to make sure that Virginia gets into the Republican column in November. BALDWIN: I understand. Those are talking points on the Republican

sides. A lot of Democrats would disagree with you. But I appreciate that. You know, I also -

GILMORE: Well, I actually feel that way. It isn't just talking - I don't have any talking points here. I just feel that way.

BALDWIN: I believe you. I believe you, governor. I believe you. I believe you.

Final question. Wild question. You know, I know Paul Ryan was saying yesterday, you know, ultimately no matter how many ballots this comes down to in Cleveland, you know, please, to these delegates, you know, vote for someone who's actually running for president. But do you see any possibility of anyone running, Governor Gilmore, on any of those ballots?

GILMORE: Well, look, I ran for president and I ran hard because I thought I had the foreign policy and governing experience that was better than the other candidates. But at the end of the day, the situation developed in such a way that I could not be the nominee. I don't expect to be the nominee. But I do hope I have a chance to go to Cleveland with the Virginia delegation so that I can play a constructive role.

BALDWIN: Yes, sir. We will see you there. Governor Gilmore, thank you so much.

GILMORE: Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Let's talk about that conversation I just had with the governor there. Joining me now, senior politics writer, "U.S. News & World Reports" David Catanese. Jackie Kucinich is with us as well, Washington bureau chief for "The Daily Beast," and CNN chief political correspondent and also debate moderator Dana Bash.

So great to see all of you.

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: You too.

DAVID CATANESE, SENIOR POLITICS WRITER, "U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT": Good to see you.

BALDWIN: Anything from that jump out at you that you want to get on?

BASH: Yes. This is why you are who you are because you just did a great job deciphering the Hillary Clinton alligator bridge water metaphor.

BALDWIN: Did you like that metaphor? It was Humpty Dumpty yesterday and now it's alligators today.

BASH: This is why they pay you the big bucks, Brooke Baldwin.

Look, this is a very, very challenging situation. For the chair of the RNC to be doing public battle, to have to tweet back at the frontrunner - I mean it's kind of crazy if you take a step back -

BALDWIN: Totally crazy.

BASH: And there's a Twitter war going on with the RNC chair and the frontrunner of the Republican Party. The one thing that they're not saying publicly in senior Republican circles is that perhaps this actually could come back to bite Donald Trump a bit more than he expects with the very people that he needs to vote for him in these various states, to become his delegates.

BALDWIN: How do you mean?

BASH: Because if you say the establishment is against me, that obviously plays very well to the base he already has.

JACKIE KUCINICH, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, "THE DAILY BEAST": Yes.

BASH: But the people who are the grassroots, who are wanting to come to the convention, running to be delegates, they are in many ways the establishment within their precinct.

BALDWIN: And it's alienating.

BASH: Exactly. Exactly.

BALDWIN: Yes.

CATANESE: But this is the problem. There's two parallel campaigns going on. In the primaries, the popular vote is becoming less and less important. And Trump hasn't really articulated this, I think, in the best way, but I think that's his best case. The rules aren't rigged, but they are looking very byzantine, very Archean, very complicated when a state like Colorado never even holds an open primary, but you can just go into a state, grab delegates -

BALDWIN: Ten second pitch and you become a delegate.

CATANESE: It looks - it - not - it doesn't looked rigged. It looks insidery (ph) and it doesn't look democratic.

BASH: Yes, that's very true.

BALDWIN: This isn't news. This has been going on for years.

CATANESE: It's not news, but here's the thing that is disingenuous about the RNC. The rules can change on the eve of the convention. So the state - the state by state rules are set and they're right to say that, but they can change the rules of who can be put in nomination on the eve of the convention. And when more and more people fine that out, that is going to be trouble for the party.

KUCINICH: Here's - here's the thing, though, they are Cruz and Trump delegates that are going to be on the rules committee.

CATANESE: True. KUCINICH: That's why they're allowed to change the rules because the argument is that these delegates shouldn't have to be governed under the Mitt Romney rules.

BASH: Exactly.

KUCINICH: So it's going to be - it's going to be stacked with their people.

Now, could there be more Cruz or Kasich people than Trump people? Sure. But that's the Trump campaign's job is to make sure their people get on the rules committee. And, yes, I know this is - there is so much to unpack here, but the - but the bottom line is, we wouldn't even be having this conversation if Trump was able to get to 1,237.

BALDWIN: Right.

KUCINICH: It's the next step that's going to be hard for him. If he's able to lock this down, we - he wouldn't even have to worry about these Cruz - these Cruz delegates.

BASH: (INAUDIBLE). Right. No, it's exactly right and I think that, you know, it is complicated. But, look, I mean people follow sports and they understand RBIs and they're going to understand this. So -

CATANESE: Right.

[14:10:00] BASH: The - the - what is going on as we speak are the delegates are being selected at a state level, right? But what, Jackie, you were talking about the rules committee at the convention - well, there's a rules committee of the RNC, but then there's -

BALDWIN: Which is like the all-powerful -

BASH: Yes.

BALDWIN: Can change the rules to whatever they want in any given election.

CATANESE: Yes.

BASH: Exactly. But then there's a rule - and then there - the people who are nominated for what you just said, to write the rules that will govern the upcoming convention. And the argument that people at the RNC make, and they have a valid point, is imagine if we didn't rewrite the rules every time. Imagine if we said, no, sorry, Donald Trump, Ted Cruz, whomever, you're going to have to live by the rules that Mitt Romney decided he wanted. That is a valid point.

CATANESE: But it's odd to make the rules of a convention after you've gone through 50 primaries and say rules like you need to win eight states.

BASH: Yes.

CATANESE: Well, what if your strategy is, I'm going to win ten states and then they change it on the eve of convention and they make it 12.

BASH: So this might be a lesson that they need to do it at the beginning of the (INAUDIBLE).

CATANESE: That's - because that's -

KUCINICH: (INAUDIBLE) that was Ron Paul's argument last time.

CATANESE: I mean it's just an odd way to do and they've always done it this way and that's what they're saying, this is always how it's been. Well, but this year it matters.

BALDWIN: Yes.

CATANESE: It's never mattered before.

KUCINICH: Yes.

CATANESE: And this year it matters if they're going to change the rules right on the eve of the convention.

BALDWIN: I'm fascinated with is question. I asked the governor. I've asked a number of people and I've actually gotten different answers. The whole bit about hitting 1,237 and the fact that we're getting so in the weeds and talking about rules and rewriting of the rules. Is it possible - you know the governor's point, he said, listen, if Trump, on the first ballot, maybe he doesn't quite get to 1,237 but he gets so darn close and he does, you know, you know, deals and negotiating, sort of finally get the final, I don't know, 50 or 20, is that - do you think that's the way it will go because people want to avoid the mess that could ensue or no?

CATANESE: I think - I think - I think they're going to try to stop Trump at - if he is one delegate short, there will be an anti-Trump movement to try to stop him because people are that passionate that he's going to take down the party.

BALDWIN: Wow.

BASH: No question.

CATANESE: I don't know -

KUCINICH: They haven't really taken the easy way in any part of the steps, so there's no reason that they - that they're going to try to make it easier on themselves once they're in Cleveland.

BALDWIN: Wow, Jackie and David and Dana, it will be fascinating for all of us to be there certainly.

BASH: Absolutely.

BALDWIN: Make sure you watch, by the way, tonight's town hall with Republican presidential candidate Ted Cruz and his wife Heidi Cruz. Anderson Cooper is in charge of that. That is tonight in New York, 9:00 Eastern, only here on CNN. Thank you all very much.

Ben Carson's closest aide getting booed by black leaders today - this is a big deal - for his comments about playing the race card in this current election. We'll play you what he said, how it was received in that room.

Also, reports of harassment and a hit list involving delegates on both sides of the political aisle. Hear what is happening behind the scenes there.

And a secret meeting at Trump Tower. Find out who went inside to meet with Trump. One of, apparently, his biggest enemies.

You're watching CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:16:50] BALDWIN: Welcome back. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

The Clinton campaign has a track record of strong support among African-Americans. Hillary Clinton also has the endorsement of the CBC, the Congressional Black Caucus. But at today's National Action Network Convention, some fiery criticism moments before the former secretary of state took to the podium, Armstrong Williams, he was Ben Carson's business manager, issued this charge to black voters.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARMSTRONG WILLIAMS, BEN CARSON'S BUSINESS MANAGER: We sit here. You hear the race speeches because they feel that's what you want to hear today. Everything in America is not always about race. Make these people earn your vote. If it's Donald Trump, so be it. If it's Bernie Sanders, so be it. Do not allow the Clintons and the establishment to waltz in here and wave their hand and everything is OK. Let them earn your vote, OK? I don't mind the hisses, because you know the truth when you hear it. Make them earn your vote. You can talk about race. They play the race card, too, as they did in South Carolina against Barack Obama. Don't get caught up in the short memory. This is a business. They'll say whatever they need to say and do whatever they need to do to get elected.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let's begin there. CNN senior Washington correspondent Jeff Zeleny, CNN chief political correspondent Dana Bash, and CNN political commentator Donna Brazile.

Donna Brazile, I heard you chuckle, so let me just begin with you. I mean apparently there were multiple rounds of booing and hissing Armstrong Williams as he was saying what he did. You laugh, why?

DONNA BRAZILE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Because every four years my friends, my black conservative friends, believe that the reason why black voters turn out and vote for Democrat is because somehow or another we've been duped. No, this is a history. There's a history there. There's a history with black voters and the Clintons. A history with black voters now and Senator Sanders. There's always a history. There's a history when Jesse Jackson ran in 1994, when he said, our time had come, and h went out and registered and registered millions of black voters. And there's a history when Barack Obama goes out and also competes for black votes.

Black voters are like every other voter in this society. We want to be courted. We want to be respected. And we want you to earn our vote. So this - this hearsay that somehow or another Democrats walk into the black community two weeks before the election to say, hey, come out and vote, that's crazy. It's ludicrous.

As we speak, not just Secretary Clinton, but also Senator Sanders, they are out there competing for these votes because they know they will make a difference. And let me just say this, as black women, I am so proud of the fact that we register in larger numbers than any other demographic group, and we vote because our votes are important. And I'm glad to see that African-American voters are out there competing and winning elections and, yes, running for office. So, sorry Armstrong, you have a lot of homework to do.

BALDWIN: We know that Secretary Clinton, she came out on the stage just a couple of minutes after that happened. Do we - did she address any of that or did she just roll on?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: No, she did address it. And she said, look, I mean, Democrats and politicians of all stripes can't just come here and expect to win the black vote. We have to earn it.

[14:20:08] BALDWIN: Right.

ZELENY: We have to have policies that earn this vote. So she's been talking about race more in this campaign recently than I remember her doing so. And some of it is - has come to her doorstep with the Black Lives Matter movement and other things, but she -

BALDWIN: Flint, Michigan.

ZELENY: She said - right. And she said that, no, we need to earn the votes. So she has some policy prescriptions as well.

But, now, this is one of the things that is really propping up and elevating her candidacy this time around. I mean the diverse coalition of voters is keeping her in front here. And that's why she was there today. It's why she makes a lot of these appearances. It's a different time, though, than when her husband was on the ballot, as we've seen over the last week or so. The conversation is different. But Donna's right, the history is there. That's why she will win overwhelmingly the majority of the black vote.

BASH: I agree. And the irony of what Armstrong Williams said is that the competition that Hillary Clinton is now getting for the Democratic nomination is forcing not just her but Bernie Sanders -

BRAZILE: Right.

BASH: To try harder to earn the African-American vote.

BRAZILE: That's true.

BASH: To earn every vote in the - in the Democratic primary process. But particularly the African-Americans, because of what you said, because she's really relying on that group to propel her. I mean, there is a reason why she does well in the states that have the big black urban populations. It's because, you know, they tend to gravitate towards her this election cycle. Not back in 2008. And she has to work for it.

BALDWIN: On that, let me switch to the delegates and the super delegates and the reports of some of these super delegate hit lists, you know, online, and that some Sanders supporters are threatening Hillary Clinton supporters. And so I'm looking at you, super delegate, and I'm wondering, have you gotten any phone calls? Have you been threatened? I mean you haven't decided or said -

BRAZILE: First of all, do I look like somebody you really want to threaten?

BASH: No.

BALDWIN: No, ma'am.

BRAZILE: Because, you know what, I can give love and I can accept it, but what I will not accept is the kind of - what I call vitriol and hate. Super delegates are part of the process. You remove us, it's like taking the rue (ph) out of a gumbo. You've had gumbo before. Take the rue out, it's nothing but soup.

BALDWIN: No good.

BRAZILE: So we've been part of the process because party leaders decided when they made all these reforms back in the late '70s and beginning of the 1980s, that they wanted party leaders and elected officials to have a role in the process. We are part of the process. You cannot remove us from the process, especially now because, you know, we're in the middle of the game.

BASH: Right.

BRAZILE: But there are things that we might be able to do in the future to ensure that super delegates are not seen as some alien species trying to take away the will of the people. We're not. We have never overturned the election. I respect Senator Sanders. I respect Secretary Clinton. I am neutral. I'm going to remain neutral. So we're not rigging the process. We're part of the process.

BALDWIN: No, but part of the conversation is, and it's on both sides, about some of these delegates maybe being -

ZELENY: Right.

BRAZILE: It's true. It's happened. It's happening.

BALDWIN: It's on - on the flip side, you're treated well, you know.

ZELENY: Right.

BRAZILE: Yes.

ZELENY: And we are about to see a conversation of this even more on the Democratic side. We're seeing it on the Republican side considerably.

BALDWIN: Yes.

ZELENY: This process being opening up. The super delegates are confusing to some people who are new to the process. The reality here is though, this is going to be the first fight we've seen this - in a social media age -

BRAZILE: Right.

ZELENY: Where people's names and addresses will be out there on social media.

BASH: Yes.

ZELENY: Eight years ago there was a huge fight between the Obama campaign -

BALDWIN: Sure.

ZELENY: And the Clinton campaign over super delegates kind of in reverse. But this is going to be different and it may get ugly. That's why the Clinton campaign wants to keep ahead in pledged delegates. If they don't, they're in trouble.

BALDWIN: We will keep the conversation rolling, I'm sure, on both sides on that.

BRAZILE: And treat us nice. Treat us nice.

BALDWIN: Sure. Yes, you don't want to mess with Donna Brazile at all.

BRAZILE: You get more from honey. More from honey.

BALDWIN: Or this one, by the way. She is helping moderate the debate tomorrow night in Brooklyn. Step away from Dana Bash.

BRAZILE: Kisses. Kisses. Kisses.

BALDWIN: She looks nice. Let me tell you. CNN heads to Brooklyn tomorrow night to host the big Democratic presidential debate.

BRAZILE: Yes.

BALDWIN: Do not miss it. Hillary Clinton facing off against Bernie Sanders tomorrow night, 9:00 Eastern, only here on CNN. Coming up next, CNN is learning new details about a top secret meeting

today at Trump Tower involving someone who has repeatedly clashed with the Republican frontrunner and who reportedly entered the building dressed in disguise. Brian Stelter is all over that. We'll talk to him next.

Also developments today in the shooting death of former New Orleans Saints football star Will Smith. New details just released by the coroner. We have an update for you on that as well. Stay here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:29:00] BALDWIN: Just into us here at CNN, sources tell us that the Trump campaign is going to Congress. Why? They're beginning a set of outreach meetings tomorrow in D.C. We are told lawmakers who support Trump and are on the fence will meet with staff. By the way, Donald Trump will not be there.

But we can tell you that the frontrunner did just meet secretly with a journalist he has called quote/unquote "crazy," "unfair," "overrated." I'm talking about Fox News host Megyn Kelly. A source tells CNN the Republican frontrunner and Kelly met at Trump Tower in Manhattan. Trump's intense dislike of Kelly has been on display all throughout this campaign.

So let's talk it over with the man with the scoop, CNN's senior media correspondent Brian Stelter, host of "Reliable Sources."

So what is the scoop? She rolled up into Trump Towers incognito?

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Yes, there's a real mystery about this. She hasn't commented on it yet, neither has Trump.

BALDWIN: Yes.

[14:29:50] STELTER: But my sources say this meeting was the culmination of Kelly reaching out to Trump seeing a face-to-face. It was on again, off again for a while. It finally happened this morning. And it is intriguing because if you think about all of Trump's targets, all of his - the people that he seems to dislike, Megyn Kelly would be at the top of the list. He has criticized her viciously at times. He says that she is unfair to him, that he can't stand to watch her show.