Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Stakes High in Tonight's CNN Clinton-Sanders Debate. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired April 14, 2016 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: -- different things that seemed like a smear of Michelle Fields.

[14:30:03] At the end of the day, I'm not sure anyone comes away kind of satisfied by this moment.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Has this dinged the Trump campaign at all?

M.J. LEE, CNN POLITICS REPORTER: Yes, I think it's important to keep in mind the political ramifications. Keep in mind, this is the Republican front-runner's campaign manager who was charged with simple battery and now those charges have been dropped.

So, that is a huge sense of relief for both Corey Lewandowski and Trump's campaign. But I would also point out for Corey Lewandowski, I think he has already felt the ramifications of this case. Remember --

STELTER: We haven't seen him do interviews lately, have we? We haven't really seen him out in the public limelight.

LEE: He has been a little more silent, a little more hidden away. But, you know, remember this campaign has been very insular, unusually so, with him at the top of the hierarchy of the campaign. The last few weeks, we've seen the campaign hire folks like Paul Manafort, like Rick Wylie, sort of suggesting that circle around Trump is starting to grow, it's not just Lewandowski anymore.

BALDWIN: M.J., Brian, Danny, thank you all so much for that.

Coming up next, let's remember why we're all here, in beautiful Brooklyn, New York, debate night in America. New details about Hillary Clinton's strategy against Bernie Sanders in their final face- off before the big New York primary.

Plus, are Senator Sanders supporters harassing superdelegates? We will speak live with one who says, yes, they certainly are.

And the Trump campaign today, paying a visit to Washington and revealing how they plan to lock up the nomination by June. Wait until you hear this.

CNN special live coverage from Brooklyn coming at you next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [14:35:34] BALDWIN: Kind of feels like when your teacher back in the day said you could have class outside. This is what this is. We're sitting here in beautiful Brooklyn. We're live at the navy yard where we're counting down to what's shaping up to be the most potentially vitriolic and personal Democratic debate we've seen this season. This is also the final face off before the crucial primary.

Welcome back. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Secretary Clinton, she is stepping into the ring with more delegates, more popular votes and more states under her belt, but senator Sanders has something she does not. A streak, winning eight of the past nine contests. Translation: math versus momentum.

Joining me now, Angela Rye, CNN political commentator, former executive director of the Congressional Black Caucus. Jeff Zeleny is with us here in Brooklyn as well, CNN senior Washington correspondent. David Catanese is senior politics writer for "U.S. News and World Report", and Ms. Donna Brazile, CNN political commentator, Democratic strategist, vice chair DNC Voter Project.

Awesome having you all out there. Let's get to it in the scene at Washington Square Park last night.

Bernie Sanders huge event. Thousands of people. Spike Lee introduces him. But what everyone's talking about today is the Bernie Sanders surrogate stepping up to the mic and talking about getting rid of corporate whores, corporate Democratic whores.

DONNA BRAZILE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: What?

BALDWIN: Was he referring to Hillary Clinton, members of Congress right? The issue is, Bernie Sanders who spoke later -- apparently there was huge applause. When Bernie Sanders spoke later, never addressed it. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt that he did not hear that comment made. Took him 12 hours to disavow.

BRAZILE: It just goes to show that Donald Trump, when it comes to tweeting habits overnight, Donald Trump is the tweetin' king. I'm glad that Sanders has distanced himself from what I call obscene remarks.

I mean, obscene whether it was directed at Secretary Clinton, whether it's directed at members of the Congress, whether it's directed at people like me or you, anybody else. It has no place in our conversation and debate that we're going to have tonight.

There are plenty of loyal Democrats out there the who, yes, they accept money from PACs, OK, they're competing in very competitive districts, they're running against corporations and special interest money and I'm sorry some of them lost their race. One in particular, my former home state senator, Mary Landrieu, she supported Obamacare and they came after her. So sorry, sir, you don't get to call us names, just because you disagree --

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: He apologized for that. I can tell you the crowd applauded for it somewhat. Not nearly as much for Tim Robbins and others.

Senator Sanders came about half an hour later, so he definitely was not there during any of this. And I think, some context, I was actually struck by the controversy because in the moment, it didn't seem like much.

Of course, you shouldn't say that word. I do not believe at the moment he actually was referring to Secretary Clinton because he was just praising her the moment before. He's married to Lisa Ling and he was saying he appreciates the Clintons so much because of what Bill Clinton did to rescue his sister-in-law from North Korea, and then he went on to say we need change in our politics to bring Medicare for all. Then, he said because of the whores going on.

So, I think that was obviously a stupid thing to say, but I don't think in the moment he was referring to Secretary Clinton.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: -- versus in the moment then played out over and over.

David, to you, tonight, I mean, it's taken a negative turn with some of the language that's being used. Most recently, the unqualified bit from Senator Sanders towards Secretary Clinton. How negative will the tone be on policy versus personal?

DAVID CATANESE, U.S. NEWS AND WORLD REPORT: I think the question is going to be does Senator Sanders have another play in his playbook?

BALDWIN: How do you mean?

CATANESE: Well, every speech he gives, every debate, what does he focus on, the super PACs? All the money that Hillary gets from Wall Street?

BALDWIN: Wall Street is just a couple blocks away.

CATANESE: Right. Her judgment on the Iraq war. We've heard the same sort of lines.

BALDWIN: You want something new?

CATANESE: Yes, to drive a new narrative. And I think his best play right now, forget the progressives. They're with you. You don't talk to the progressives.

You have to talk to sort of the mainstream Democratic voter and raise some concerns about whether she can win a general election, because, frankly, the polling is on his side on this. He beats the Republicans by bigger margins.

BALDWIN: What does he say to those moderates to say I'm the guy and not her?

CATANESE: I think he has to point to the polling. It's a dicey move because I think he has to raise questions that he didn't want to go on before, the e-mail scandal.

[14:40:01] But he sort of roll that out prior. But I think he has to raise the risk. Look, Hillary Clinton's great but she obviously has a ton of baggage.

Now, how he formulates those lines, saying this is not a slam dunk general election for us. But if you elect me, we bring out the progressives, we swell the polls, we have huge turnout, and I carry in progressive members in the House and the Senate, I'm the more electable candidate. I think that's what he has to push for.

ANGELA RYE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, he's got some challenges there. I think he tried a new messaging tactic and it backfired. He tried to question her qualifications.

I think what he was trying to do is what you suggested, that there's baggage here that potentially could impact her ability to win in the general. It didn't work.

Whenever Bernie Sanders is off, his very refined clear very focused, but 10,000 foot level message it backfires.

BALDWIN: "New York Daily News" editorial board interview where he was criticized --

RYE: That is Exhibit A, right? I mean, it's a very clear example of what happens when he's just a little gets off talking points, he becomes defensive, feels like people are questioning his credibility. And I think that's really not the case. He should be expected to say more than a few talking points about Washington.

BALDWIN: What does she say about the '94 crime bill? Because that has come back on the trail. We saw the back and forth with Bill Clinton last week. What does she need to say? Because even the National Action Network, about three hours ago, Bernie Sanders sort of, you know, addressed it subtlety. How does she address that?

BRAZILE: And I'm glad, Bernie Sanders -- who voted for the bill.

BALDWIN: Yes, he did, he did.

BRAZILE: And there's no question I think that Secretary Clinton can put it in context of what was happening in 1994. Was it a good bill? No, it was a flawed bill in many ways. It was a compromise. There were elements in that bill that even the members of the Congressional Black Caucus did not like.

There was a procedural vote that saved the bill. Members of the Black Caucus, this was a moment when black pastors, black mayors, others say, we have to do something to stop this crime wave in our communities.

She has to address it. He has to address it. More importantly, what about mass incarceration in the future? I think they both have to address it.

CATANESE: He should say it was the wrong move and move on and pivot.

ZELENY: She's already disavowed it.

CATANESE: But every debate is a new platform and tonight she's got to say it again for New Yorkers who haven't tuned into the other debate.

ZELENY: I think this is one of the moments where Senator Sanders would be a new candidate if he hadn't had a 30-year record in Congress, this is the moment where, boy, he could sure own that. But he voted for it --

BALDWIN: He's been in Congress for 30 years.

ZELENY: Exactly, he voted for it. If this had been a new, say, freshman senator coming up and rising who hadn't voted for it, who really go hard against her, and say this is a different moment, but that's one of his challenges here.

So, I don't think this issue has much traction. It is an important issue but she's already apologized for it.

BALDWIN: I have to imagine Secretary Clinton also has a zinger in her back pocket when it comes to why she's qualified. Just a hunch.

Angela, David, Donna, Jeff, thank you all so much. Hours away from the debate it the hall just in front of us in Brooklyn.

Coming up, the ugly side of politics as the fight for delegates becomes increasingly intense. New reports of these superdelegates being pressured, even harassed, phone calls, e-mails, by the supporters of rival campaigns. One superdelegate has written a scathing open letter hoping it will stop. We will talk to him next.

You're watching CNN special live coverage from Brooklyn.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:46:52] BALDWIN: Since day one, Senator Bernie Sanders has referred to his campaign as a political revolution. And now, it appears from his supports who try to revolutionize the party's delegate process, some Hillary Clinton supporters, some superdelegates specifically, report they are being harassed by Sanders supporters who want them to flip their allegiance.

For example, Maine DNC member and Clinton supporter, Maggie Allen, told "The Washington Examiner" that she gets 25 phone calls a day. Quote, "I got drunken calls. I was basically being called an elitist, unfair, an undemocratic person."

Some delegates point to Spencer Thayer, a 25-year-old Bernie Sanders supporter for some of this. He apparently brought the web domain superdelegatehitlist.com. That apparently has been deleted. His website lists the names, phone and addresses and phone numbers of all of Hillary Clinton's superdelegates, also the information of uncommitted delegates.

After some instances of harassment surfaced, he changed the name to simply superdelegatelist.com.

California superdelegate and Clinton supporter Bob Mulholland heard about so many of the threats. He actually wrote a letter to the Sanders campaign and he joins me now from Sacramento, California.

Bob, nice to have you on.

BOB MULHOLLAND, DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE MEMBER OF CALIFORNIA: Yes, welcome to the great state of California led by Governor Jerry Brown.

BALDWIN: Well, thank you there, I hope to be in California, but we're here in New York for now, ahead of the big New York primary.

But let me talk to you about some of these e-mails. I understand you've gotten some harassing e-mails. What do they say?

MULHOLLAND: Well, I couldn't repeat it on TV, even cable, the vulgar language, but it's mostly the women DNC members that seem to be getting most of the harassment. Calls at night, calls at their office, just inappropriate to have political stalkers working for the Sanders campaign and it took over a week for the Sanders campaign to denounce them and that was disappointing.

BALDWIN: How did they know specifically it's the Sanders -- let's be specific, campaign or Sanders supporters?

MULHOLLAND: Well, supporters. But my point was the campaign knew about it the day that hit list came out and was posted. They didn't denounce it until after some publicity a week later.

But these people say their supporters, some of them even say I didn't vote for Obama, like they're proud of that and called the whole system corrupt and then yell at people. I'm mostly concerned about the women Democratic delegates to the national convention.

BALDWIN: You know, Donna Brazile who we just had on, said she's been called every name in the book, she's a superdelegate as well. She said, you know what I respond to those and say I have earned my seat at the table. Do you respond?

MULHOLLAND: Well, I don't get many. Mostly because of who I am.

I think it's very difficult. I've had a lot of conversations by phone and e-mail with the women DNC members. It's very intimidating to them. You know, we have laws in this country against stalkers.

Clearly in politics, we expect to get calls, but not at nighttime. Not threatening. Not intimidating. Not using vulgar language. It's just inappropriate and unnecessary and it doesn't help the Sanders people at all.

BALDIWN: You know, can you say 100 percent that, say, Hillary Clinton supporters haven't done anything in the neighborhood of -- anything similar to this? [14:50:10] MULHOLLAND: I have not heard of any. I would assume not.

It doesn't mean that somebody now will be popping up trying to lay the groundwork as a defense for Sanders.

But the most important message for everybody is don't go on national TV basically telling people to call superdelegates or DNC members. They're not calling members of Congress at 10:30 at night. They're calling DNC members and they seem to be focusing mostly on women.

You just mentioned one woman who evidently is getting 20 cars a day. Well, that doesn't surprise me. Women are more vulnerable and these men out there know it.

BALDWIN: Bob Mulholland, thank you for speaking up. Appreciate it, in the great state of California, thank you.

From former political enemy has to potential running mates? Just a couple months ago, Senator Marco Rubio was accusing Ted Cruz of dirty campaign tricks. Now, wait until you hear what Cruz has to say about Rubio, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: We're back here live in Brooklyn, New York.

Democrats hours away from squaring off, final debate for the all- important New York primary next Tuesday. The Republicans are waging an all-out battle. Some call it a death match to reach that magic number of 1,237 delegates. Otherwise, they will be heading to a contested convention in Cleveland.

Ted Cruz tells CNN that Donald Trump and his supporters are growing so desperate he said they resorted to threats and intimidation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: They're acting like union boss thugs and in Colorado, I spoke yesterday to the chairman of the Republican Party in Colorado. Trump supporters put out his home address, put out his phone numbers. He got thousands of phone calls. He got death threats.

Trump supporters were telling their supporters, go to his house and bring their guns. Look, violence doesn't belong in democracy. And the Trump campaign encourages it over and over. In Indiana, police are reporting threats of violence against delegates from the Trump campaign.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: I want to start my panel on that comment, talking about the Republicans. I have with me CNN political commentators S.E. Cupp, Margaret Hoover here, and also Kayleigh McEnany, who supports Donald Trump.

So, ladies, nice to see all of you. Off of what Senator Cruz, listen, I feel like they're all sort of doing there, you're intimidating this isn't fair, they're complaining.

S.E., who has the most room you think to complain?

S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, anyone who is not on the Trump side is getting -- I mean, I speak for myself, you know, threatens, intimidated.

[14:55:08] It's not fun to not be on the Trump train. It takes some courage and some thick skin.

BALDWIN: You're getting threatened?

CUPP: Oh, for sure, daily.

BALDWIN: Daily?

CUPP: Daily. It's really nasty.

BALDWIN: Phone calls, e-mails?

CUPP: Yes, yes. Yes, it's really nasty.

And, you know, I put the blame not squarely on the Trump campaign shoulders but I think they deserve some of it for really inciting that kind of vitriol among people that don't agree with them.

But, look, Ted Cruz is doing a masterful job of organizing and really showing that -- getting these delegates are important and you have to know the system to do it.

And so, Ted Cruz should be really proud of that organization. And I think if it goes to a contested convention and gets beyond the first ballot that bodes very well for him.

BALDWIN: As a Donald Trump supporter, as a woman, you're hearing our friends, you know, the threats she gets, calls, emails, and others apparently do as well, how do you defend that?

KAYLEIGH MCENANY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It goes both ways. No way can you defend any sort of threat. I receive threats too. Just being on the Trump train is not easy either. You receive threats from the other side.

The point is there's a lot of vitriol going both ways. The Trump campaign has come out and said, "We renounce violence." In fact, the Indiana co-chair come out and said, it is unacceptable for any supporter to call a delegate.

And, you know, like you said, the point you made at the beginning is a very important one, that there's accusations flying. You had Governor Kasich come out and say the Cruz campaign was bullying and strong arming delegates in Michigan. So, there are accusations.

It's unacceptable. I think to put the blame on one person or crazy people alleging violence is, you know --

BALDWIN: Let me move on. Let's talk about this potential for this contested convention. I was watching this morning. There was an RNC rules member by the name of Randy Evans. He was on.

He was saying that if Donald Trump gets to that 1,100 mark, then perhaps, I think reading between the lines, he's inferring the unbound delegates, the delegates who could be released by the candidate, throw all of them in, and he will hit 1,237.

MARGARET HOOVER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: And what Randy did was go back and clarify what he meant --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: -- going to give it to him.

HOOVER: And he's not saying he doesn't have to hit the 1,237.

BALDWIN: Right.

HOOVER: He was sort of guesstimating back at the math, if he gets to 1,200, between, all the other unbound delegates, which, by the way, turns out Marco Rubio of his 172 delegates, some 34 of them are unbound. That's Oklahoma, from Minnesota. So, yes, I mean --

BALDWIN: Back of the napkin math is good.

HOOVER: -- pull it together, it's back of the napkin math though.

BALDWIN: Yes, agree?

MCENANY: Agreed. Let's hope he gets there?

CUPP: I think Trump gets all the delegates before we get to the convention.

MCENANY: I think so too.

HOOVER: I mean, best estimates, you look at Nate Silver, you look at all sort of people who are (INAUDIBLE), it's going to come down to these 53 micro primaries, right, which is California, and how many first, second third do each of the delegates get. It really comes down to California. Best estimates subject he won't quite get to the 1,237 threshold. So, take that word.

BALDWIN: What about the potential VP candidates? Cruz was on talking to Anderson last night and he was saying he would not rule out Marco Rubio. We all remember the slamming back and forth and now perhaps -- he said he didn't say directly, refused to rule him out, said even his credentials in the 2010 Senate run inspired Ted Cruz to run in 2012.

CUPP: That's very nice. That's very nice language.

MCENANY: This always happens, you know, you have people who spar on stage and you look and you say, there's no way these people could ever get along and we're on the same ticket and yet it always happens. You know, seeing Ben Carson endorse Donald Trump, when they exchanged insults. And that was not good.

CUPP: Or Chris Christie.

MCENANY: But they move forward. Or Chris Christie. And same with Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton. There were some awful accusations that went both ways in 2008 but they all came together because that's what parties are supposed to do.

BALDWIN: Do you think that that could be -- you know, talking to smart people on my show such as you ladies, folks have thrown out that could be part of the dealings to get Trump to that magic number or to get Cruz closer and closer if it companies to a second ballot. Hey, well, perhaps, Governor Kasich if you join my side, you can give me your delegates.

HOOVER: That's exactly why Marco Rubio hasn't released his delegates. That's exactly why Kasich is staying still in the race. These delegates, all the power they have or leverage. You better believe there's all sorts of horse trading. That's what's going to happen.

CUPP: That's why Trump was caught so off guard, because this sort of delegate, you know, the fight for delegates is something that actually happens a year ago.

BALDWIN: It's a thing.

CUPP: Yes, it's hugely important part of running for president. Trump seems to have this sort of like middle school idea of how you become president, which is, you know, you just be the most popular person.

That's not how it works. The delegate fight is incredibly important. And the infrastructure that goes into courting these delegates and setting yourselves up for this competition at the convention happens months ago. So, he's really catching up now.

MCENANY: Look, S.E.'s right now, he wasn't prepared for this, absolutely. But there is something to be said for challenging the rules when 66 percent of people in your party disagree with them and say that whoever has the most delegates.