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RNC vs. Trump; Clinton Debates Sanders. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired April 14, 2016 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:03]

S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: So he's really catching up now.

KAYLEIGH MCENANY, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, S.E.'s right, though, that he wasn't prepared for this, absolutely, but there is something to be said for challenging the rules when 66 percent of people in your party disagree with them and say that whoever has the most delegates going into the convention...

(CROSSTALK)

MARGARET HOOVER, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: But the question is, if you're the nominee, you should learn the rules before you challenge them.

(CROSSTALK)

MCENANY: But when the people you are purporting to represent don't like the rules, then perhaps it's time to change them.

CUPP: But that's a completely separate conversation.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: That's something we talk about after November.

CUPP: Right.

BALDWIN: After November, Kayleigh, S.E. and Margaret, thank you all so much. Now this.

All right, and we roll on. You're watching CNN on this beautiful Thursday here, beautiful blue skies, Brooklyn, New York. We're at the Navy Yard. You're watching CNN's special coverage of the Democratic presidential debate.

In just about -- we have got the countdown clock for you, less than six hours away now before Bernie Sanders will get his final chance to take on Hillary Clinton face-to-face before the pivotal primary here in New York, next Tuesday. Sanders was born here. Clinton was elected here. No doubt about it, the state is very special to both of these candidates.

So how will they treat such hallowed ground? Will issues prevail over insults? People are asking because this is the first debate since Senator Sanders said Secretary Clinton was -- quote, unquote -- "unqualified to be president."

Jeff Zeleny is up first here, CNN's Jeff Zeleny, inside the Duggal Greenhouse, which has been transformed into the magical debate hall.

Jeff Zeleny, talk to me about, first up, Secretary Clinton's strategy this evening.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brooke, I mean, we have seen eight debates already. This is the ninth debate. But this is a different moment, I can tell you.

You were talking about New York and Brooklyn. The Clinton campaign headquarters, ground zero of their campaign is right here in Brooklyn. Senator Sanders was born here. This is a decisively local debate. There are going to be local issues that are playing a big role in this.

For the last week or so, I have been stuck by Senator Sanders, who has been going after Secretary Clinton hard on fracking in Upstate New York, on Wall Street here in New York City. So I think we're going to see a much more of a localized debate than some of the others we have seen. But, Brooke, the reason that this is an important moment is it's really one of the last, best chances for the Sanders campaign, for Senator Sanders himself to make the case to voters who may like what he's been saying, but are not sure about his ability to either be elected or get it done.

That's what he's really trying to do today. Now, for the Clinton campaign's part, they're just trying to sort of hold steady here. She's been doing some debate prep, although not nearly as much as for some of the other debates. She's been at her house just outside of New York City here in Chappaqua with some of her advisers, I'm told.

She's going through some things. We can really expect a head-to-head confrontation of what they have been saying long-distance over the last week or so. She is going to raise questions about if he's really able to get all of these plans done, or is the spotlight for New York, you know, a glaring spotlight here really, you know, shining a light on some of the things that his plans sound better than they actually are here.

So I think tonight's debate, some of the issues are similar, but it is a different moment in this campaign, because it's probably the last Democratic debate between these two, not necessarily, but probably. And it really is a time where Senator Sanders has to, you know, not only make points. He has to make a move, a big move here, because we're nearing the end of this long Democratic primary fight, Brooke.

BALDWIN: All right, Jeff Zeleny, thank you very much, just inside where that debate will be held in just over -- just about six hours from now.

ZELENY: You bet.

BALDWIN: Let me bring in our panel.

Thank you, my friend.

Our panel, which includes the author of this book, "Buyer's Remorse: How Obama Let Progressives Down," CNN political commentator Bill Press, who is supporting Bernie Sanders.

Awesome having you here.

BILL PRESS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Also with me, political commentator Van Jones, a former official in the Obama White House, CNN chief political analyst Gloria Borger, and political commentator Charles Blow, a columnist with "The New York Times."

Welcome to every single one of you. I know you're taking pictures before.

(CROSSTALK)

BORGER: I am.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: This is such a beautiful set. I know I'm pinching myself.

PRESS: It is.

BALDWIN: OK, beginning with still much talk about this whores remark last night. This is the Bernie Sanders rally. This is when, you know, a surrogate came up and mentioned -- we don't know who he was referring to, members of Congress, Hillary Clinton, as some critics have pointed out.

The issue is that about half-an-hour later, Bernie Sanders was speaking. I'm told by Jeff Zeleny he was there -- he wasn't even there, so wouldn't have heard the comment, but he didn't disavow the comment until 12 long hours later.

As the Bernie Sanders supporter, was 12 hours too long?

PRESS: First of all, the remark was absolutely outrageous, unacceptable for any...

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Whoever you're referring to?

PRESS: Whoever you're with, whoever the candidate is, yes.

I'm going to fault Bernie Sanders. I think he did the right thing. He did not hear the remark. I'm sure it took time for them to catch up, did you hear what that guy said? I wish he had done it sooner, but he did it and that's the most important thing.

[15:05:00]

BALDWIN: Gloria Borger, thoughts?

Yes, you know, everybody who's covered politics knows that sometimes your south surrogates go a little bit off-script. Right?

PRESS: Just a little bit.

BORGER: Just a little bit, and I think that's what happened here and you have to move quickly.

VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: And the guy apologized.

BORGER: Yes.

JONES: I think it's one of those lines that you use with a small group and it works, and you use it with your buddy on the phone and it works. And you use it at a rally, and you're like, I should never have said this. And he apologized. And Bernie called it on him.

BALDWIN: Well, apparently, it wasn't even that huge of a moment if you were at the rally. It wasn't that big a thing, according to Jeff, who was in the crowd, but then later, when you get the sound...

JONES: And that happens in politics, right?

CHARLES BLOW, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, but the thing in the video -- right. It's 27,000 people there.

(CROSSTALK)

BLOW: So far back, it may not have been as big a deal.

What the video captures, however, is very distasteful, which is that people in the front roar when he said that. And so it makes it even worse in a way. It is -- again, he apologized for it. He disavowed it. Great.

You know, a few hours -- maybe it should have been a few hours than he did. He did the right thing. It's just that the tone of it becomes a problem. And I think we keep seeing people faux pas. Clinton doing it, and people kind of trying to cheer him on when he's defending the super predator comment and the 1994 crime bill and the people in the audience kind of cheering at that moment. It makes you cringe.

You watch this and he says that and then -- and people cheer and it makes you cringe.

JONES: And then we also have that colored people time moment.

BLOW: But people could -- you heard groaning.

(CROSSTALK)

JONES: Right away.

But I just -- I think that, you know, some of this stuff in the heat of the battle is very important to people. But I think there are deeper issues in the party, that this stuff just becomes the excuse to talk about.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Let me pivot, because Charles brought it up, and I'm looking at you, because you're so passionate about mass incarceration and everything else, and with the '94 crime bill kind of coming back up and percolating, and we know that Senator Sanders at the time, he supported it as well, both of whom have said perhaps it went a little too far at the time.

He addressed it at the National Action Network at the noon event. It's going to come up tonight. What does she say?

JONES: Well, look, I think she has gotten it right more than wrong. I mean, she has said at that time people thought a certain way.

But she -- her very first speech, as you point out many times, was saying, hey, we overshot the runway. We went too far. And now she has put forward ideas about how to fix it. I think the problem is that Bill Clinton came back out and the big dog kind of made a mess on the carpet, and so now you have got to go back and relitigate it.

I got to say, the most important voice is not on the stage. It's those young Black Lives Matter who have raised this issue and are saying, I know you guys maybe thought you were doing the right thing in the '90s, though Reverend Jackson said no. You thought you were doing the right thing in the '90s, but you have destroyed our neighborhoods with this and you have got to stop.

BORGER: But Bill Clinton clearly made a huge mistake.

JONES: Huge.

BORGER: And then -- because he was defending his own administration, right? And then the next day, he came back and apologized.

JONES: No, he almost kind of apologized.

BORGER: Well, but it was clear to me that he got a lot of guff at home or from the -- from the Clinton campaign, which said, wait a minute, we have been spending our lives during this campaign trying to walk that back. And then he went out there and so it becomes yet another...

(CROSSTALK)

BLOW: This is also a social media generation, right?

So not only is it, you know, we overshot the runway, but people are looking back at, what were you saying at the time? And Bernie Sanders has a passionate floor speech where he's saying this is going to be a problem and Hillary during the same period of time is saying, you know, the super predators and using that sort of language.

And so people can now look back on that and juxtapose that and it does not come off well for her. Forget about whether or not you understood it would be -- had the unintended consequences. What were you saying in the heat of battle.

But the problem for Bernie Sanders is, you can't have it both ways. You can't say on the one hand, the Violence Against Women Act was part of this, and therefore I voted for it, even though I kind of swallowed something, but then say on the bailouts that, you know, I was going to let Detroit go belly up because I didn't like the banks, because you were able -- you're going to have these conflicts all time.

You're going to have to pick and choose. And you were willing to say, we're going to -- I know this. He said it out of his own mouth in the moment. I know this is going to have disastrous effects on the black community. And I'm still going to vote for it.

So you can't have it both ways.

BALDWIN: Let me move off of this.

And, Bill Press, I'm going to turn to you because I want to ask about President Obama made news when he spoke with FOX News over the weekend and was asked about his biggest mistake, and he flat out said it was the day after Moammar Gadhafi was taken down in Libya. And the question is, as secretary of state, how does Hillary Clinton, you know, bear-hug the president tonight on the stage, but make sure that time doesn't haunt her on the trail?

PRESS: It's going to be a little tricky dance, I think. There's no doubt. Libya is Hillary Clinton's baby. She's the one who pushed it. Susan Rice did too. She was secretary of state.

[15:10:05]

That "Atlantic" interview with President Obama, very, very telling. He said he didn't want to go there. He resisted it. He finally goes, all right, I guess if they're feeling so strongly about it, he went along with it. Now he says it's his biggest mistake and it has Hillary Clinton's name all over it.

I don't know how she gets out of it, other than to -- she's not -- I don't think she's going to say it was a mistake. I think she will say we did the right thing at the time, but we didn't anticipate maybe what was going to follow, because now it's a training base for ISIS now.

JONES: In New York, this is not the big issue. I think, I mean, it's just not. Foreign policy for this particular Democratic primary, surprisingly, even in New York, has not been the big deal.

I think it's the economic issues, these racial issues, these gender issues have been more of consequence to these voters. So I wonder how consequential it will be tonight.

(CROSSTALK)

BORGER: What will be interesting is the Middle East, if Israel, support for Israel becomes a huge issue in New York, which, by the way, so far, it hasn't as much as one would have expected and we will have to see how that plays out.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Go ahead, please.

(CROSSTALK)

PRESS: When you say, look, Bernie Sanders is too weak on foreign policy, and yet Bernie can come back and say, well, wait a minute, you're supposedly the expert on foreign policy and look what about Iraq and what about Libya and what about...

(CROSSTALK)

BLOW: All he has to say is you moved us from super predators to super Predator drones.

(CROSSTALK)

BLOW: If can link the language you were using back then to the kind of military kind of posture she has now, then he has linked those two things together and that is it.

BALDWIN: Let's move on to your point. We're in New York and an issue obviously is economics and Wall Street reform. We're a couple of train stops away from Wall Street itself. It has to loom large.

We know that he's been criticized and ultimately "The New York Daily News" has endorsed Clinton based upon the editorial board big conversation that they had. How does he right that wrong?

(CROSSTALK)

BORGER: Look, I think what he does is, he says, as his wife has been saying, this was kind of an inquisition, this interview.

He said these are issues I have been working on my whole life and, by the way, the banks are not ready -- right, the banks are not ready to deal with their problems yet. And then he starts talking about Hillary Clinton's campaign contributions. I also believe, by the way, he's going to raise the Verizon speech issue, about her ties to corporate America, and, you know, so I think that's how he -- I think that's how he starts doing it.

JONES: I think Bernie can be forgiven for messing up a newspaper editorial board interview.

He can come back and say, here's how I break up the banks. And those are the kind of things you can study for half-an-hour and get right. He just wasn't ready then. I don't think that people who don't like Bernie are going to be moved either way about the specifics. I think there's something else happening in this party.

There is a big struggle. It's generational between are you primarily about being principled and then using pragmatism to get there, or are you primarily about being pragmatic and then having your principles inform your pragmatism?

And I think that is much more explanatory. And so I think what's happening is, generationally, Hillary Clinton may win the presidency. I think Bernie's going to win the party. She might be the president, but it's going to be his party because he's made it OK to have really big dreams again, whether or not you know in this meeting or that meeting how you're going to get them done.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Final thought, final thought.

BLOW: There are two parties, right? There is the Southern and the Northern urban parties, right?

And I think that he wins the Northern and urban across the country party. I think that she keeps the party as it exists in large parts of the South and in kind of the Rust Belt.

BALDWIN: I just can't believe I stumped you.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Charles Blow speechless, speechless in Brooklyn. Charles, Gloria, Bill, and Van, thank you all.

Thank you. All right.

Again, let me remind you, we are six hours away from the big event this evening here in Brooklyn, 9:00 Eastern, Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders debate, only here live on CNN. Do not miss that.

Just ahead, he is not a Republican. He is not a Democrat. But he is, in fact, running for president. Libertarian Gary Johnson joins me live on the race and what he thinks of Mr. Trump.

Plus, Christine O'Donnell, former Tea Party Senate candidate who famously proclaimed she was not a witch, she will join me live as to whether she thinks the system is rigged. A lot coming at you. We continue our live coverage from Brooklyn after this short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:19:08]

BALDWIN: And we're live in Brooklyn at the site of tonight's CNN Democratic debate. About an hour's drive from here in Long Island, protesters will be gathering to express their outrage over Republican candidate Donald Trump's planned visit. He's scheduled to speak tonight at a Republican front-runner.

The site is only a short distance from where Ecuadorian immigrant Marcelo Lucero was killed in 2008 in a hate crime attack by a group of white teenagers. Lucero's family and others have pushed to get Trump's speech canceled.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REV. ALLAN RAMIREZ, LUCERO FAMILY SPOKESMAN: To invite Donald Trump to speak but a few hundred yards from this spot where his brother was killed as a result of a hate crime is -- it's an outrage for the immigrant community. For Donald Trump to come and speak here is sacrilegious. It is akin to inviting Osama bin Laden to speak at Ground Zero.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[15:20:05]

BALDWIN: Wow. Wow.

Let's go now live to Sara Ganim.

Are you seeing any signs of protesters there, Sara? Not yet?

SARA GANIM, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Good afternoon, Brooke.

It's not supposed to start for another 45 minutes, but, as you mentioned, and as you heard from people who live here in Patchogue, we have seen protests across the country, people speaking out against some of the language, what they say is hateful rhetoric from Donald Trump particularly on immigration issues.

But here in Patchogue, in this neighborhood, it is more personal than just protesting. They're actually getting ready, I will show you, to do a peaceful demonstration here on this street. And the reason why they're out here, the reason why they're so upset, Brooke, is right here. This is the home, we're standing here in front of it, where Marcelo Lucero was attacked by a group of teenagers because he was Hispanic.

He was beaten, he was stabbed and he died here. This is just a few steps away, just about two or three blocks from the site of this fund- raiser when Donald Trump will be speaking tonight. We're expecting about 1,500 people to show up. It's a paid fund-raiser, the money going to the Republican Party here, the Republican Party chair saying that the location, Brooke, was a coincidence, but that the tensions in this community between the Latino community and others who live here on Long Island are indicative of a broken immigration system, and that's what Donald Trump will be speaking here about.

But, as you saw, the protesters also want to be here. They say the language that he uses is hateful and not progressive and not helpful to their community, and they just want to be here and they want to show that they're not OK with this, that they're insulted by this, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Sara Ganim, we will stay with you and, of course, see what folks say went they do start appearing at that event in 45 minutes. Thank you so much.

Meantime, Donald Trump is promoting a protest of his own, a "big march" protest tomorrow in Colorado, doubling down on his accusations that the Republican Convention there involved in selecting those delegates was rigged.

Reince Priebus, the head of the RNC, and the RNC say Trump knew the rules for securing delegates when he signed up to run for president. Mr. Trump says this is just another example how he's challenging the establishment.

My next guest takes issue with that. She's a former Tea Party congressional candidate. She's laughing already. She's Christine O'Donnell, arguably one of the first candidates in this movement of challenging the establishment.

Nice to see you. Thanks for hanging out in Brooklyn with me today.

CHRISTINE O'DONNELL, CONSERVATIVE COLUMNIST: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

BALDWIN: Listen, we talked before at length. I know how you feel about Donald Trump.

O'DONNELL: I love him. Kidding.

BALDWIN: Feel free to remind everyone. But to his point about the system, do you agree at all that it is rigged?

O'DONNELL: OK, well, first, let me clarify. What I take the most issue with, what I get offended, is when people call him anti- establishment.

But specifically to you question about do I think the system rigged, I think his fundamental argument is flawed, because the system itself is built upon the 10th Amendment. The party apparatus, the primary process is the process by which the party, the Republican Party and the Democratic Party choose who's going to represent them in the general election.

It's not the time for the American people to have their voice heard. That's in the general election. So the local state parties set up the rules that party members have to follow. So it's a system that's in place to protect local sovereignty and to protect the sovereignty of the states.

BALDWIN: It's a system that is in place. It's a system you have to sign up for and agree to when you jump in.

O'DONNELL: Right.

BALDWIN: But, at the end of the day, like after the hanging chads in Florida in 2000 and then you had the Help America Vote Act, I mean, do you think that -- he's sort of pointing out, I don't know if this is fair.

O'DONNELL: See, what he's doing, again, we have to break this down, because he's making an overall statement and only little pieces are correct.

Yes, there's corruption in the political system. But the system itself is what the party built itself on.

BALDWIN: OK.

O'DONNELL: And that's in my opinion what he's doing. If you remember, he took that pledge, he took that oath, he said I'm going to support the Republican nominee, oh, wink, wink, as long as they're fair. This is a fair process.

But what he's doing is he's making sure that he has an out to break his pledge, because Donald Trump's going to the general election one way or the other, as an independent candidate or as the Republican nominee.

BALDWIN: You think so?

O'DONNELL: That's what all this hoopla is about.

BALDWIN: Think so?

Let's throw Trump out for a second, any of the candidates actually running, actually running.

O'DONNELL: OK.

BALDWIN: We heard House Speaker Paul Ryan the other day say, listen, please, delegates, do not put me on the ballot. If this comes to a contested convention, you actually need to nominate somebody who's actually running for president.

[15:25:10]

There was a piece in "The New York Times" where we were talking about possible savior candidates. If you think could pick one name out of a hat who you think could be a savior, not Cruz, Trump, Kasich or even Gary Johnson, who would you pick?

O'DONNELL: Elizabeth McCord. If you watch "Madam Secretary," you know what I'm talking about.

BALDWIN: I don't watch enough TV.

O'DONNELL: Tea Leoni's character, she's amazing.

BALDWIN: So you're picking a fictitious character.

O'DONNELL: Exactly. Exactly.

BALDWIN: How about a real one?

O'DONNELL: Here's the thing. I don't think that would be fair. None of the candidates -- although I like Cruz, I was more excited about Scott Walker, you know, so he's by process of elimination for me. And I'm even hesitant to say that.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Process of elimination, Christine O'Donnell. Why are you not owning it and saying I will support or I...

O'DONNELL: Because I will, I will.

But what I'm saying in terms of who I would want as the savior candidate, having gone through a grueling campaign myself, come on, don't do that.

BALDWIN: Should be one of the candidates?

O'DONNELL: Absolutely.

I think unless you're going to make the sacrifices, put your name on the line, put your reputation on the line, put your family at risk, you don't deserve to be the Republican nominee.

BALDWIN: Moving off the savior notion, and the bit about Cruz, it's like I can feel like you're inching towards saying, I, Christine O'Donnell, fully endorse Ted Cruz. It's like we heard from Senator Rubio the other day and he's saying sort of the same.

And I'm paraphrasing, process of elimination, seems like the most conservative candidate, ergo, Ted Cruz.

O'DONNELL: Don't get me wrong. Oh, I'm sorry. I interrupted.

BALDWIN: Yes, just why the half-baked endorsements?

O'DONNELL: Well, I'm a huge Ted Cruz fan. Please don't get me wrong. I'm a champion of his in the Senate, but my hesitation is for two reasons.

Number one is because I really could hate to see him leave the Senate. I am passionately excited about a Majority Leader Cruz in the Senate. So we need him there.

The second part of this is, it's intertwined with Trump. The thing about Trump right now is, he throws out these unrealistic policy so- called solutions that break all kinds of treaties, that trample all over the Constitution, but it taps into a visceral response and anger that the American voter has right now, so that's why you see people flocking behind him.

On the other side, we have Bernie Sanders doing that. Hollywood calls it the it factor. I think Cruz lacks that it factor. So it makes me concerned, especially now that there might be a brokered against and we might have a Sanders candidate on the other side.

Could Cruz rally enough passion to go against that? And, again, people are going to -- haters are going to hate. They're going to say, I hate Cruz. No, I love Cruz. And I will do -- hey, Cruz campaign, I will do whatever is needed if you think I can be helpful.

I'm just saying I think that that's why there's a reluctance, is because we need that it factor this election.

BALDWIN: Christine O'Donnell, always a pleasure. Come back. O'DONNELL: Thank you, Brooke. I would love to.

BALDWIN: Thank you very much.

Coming up next, on the Democratic side, Hillary Clinton, Bernie Sanders face-to-face tonight here in Brooklyn, the only Democratic debate left on the calendar ahead of the all-important New York primary. Our political guru and one of my, just quite honestly, favorite people on the planet, David Chalian, joins me right here with his three most important thing to watch for tonight at the CNN debate.

We will be right back.

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