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Angry Tone Dominates Dems Debate; : "New York Post" Endorses Trump; Trump Blasts Political System in WSJ Op-Ed. Aired 9-9:30a ET
Aired April 15, 2016 - 09:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[09:00:00] CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Have a great weekend.
PEREIRA: You, too.
COSTELLO: NEWSROOM starts now.
And good morning. I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me. The gloves come off and the Democrats throw down.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(CROSSTALK)
HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You know, wait a minute, wait a minute.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: That's just not accurate.
CLINTON: Wait. Wait. Come on. I have stood on the debate stage.
SANDERS: Well --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSTELLO: Anger and resentment boil over at the CNN debate. Remember the civility and graciousness of their earlier showdowns? Well, it's trampled underfoot as Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders race towards Tuesday's all-important primary in New York.
Bitter accusations over integrity, gun violence and even the minimum wage, and a flurry of punches in a fight that was never expected to reach these final rounds.
CNN correspondent, commentators and guests are here to break it all down. Let's begin with John Berman who had a front-row seat. Good morning.
JOHN BERMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Carol. You know, this is what it looks like when two people are sick of each other. Sick of each other and on the same stage together, again and again and again. Both candidates up there trying to end this campaign somehow, anyhow, on what was the highest stakes debate yet.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) BERMAN (voice-over): You want contrast?
SANDERS: I do question her judgment.
BERMAN: You want contentious?
CLINTON: Describing the problem is a lot easier than trying to solve it.
BERMAN: You got Brooklyn. A high tension, high drama debate befitting the high stakes of the moment. From the start, Bernie Sanders blasted Hillary Clinton's judgment.
SANDERS: I question her judgment which voted for the war in Iraq and I question her judgment about running super PACs.
CLINTON: This is a phony attack that is designed to raise questions when there is no evidence or support to undergird that insinuation that he is putting forward in these attacks.
BERMAN: But nearly every Sanders salvo was met by a Clinton call for specifics, including his suggestion that she is in the pocket of big banks.
SANDERS: When millions of people lost their jobs and their homes and their life savings, the obvious response to that is you got a bunch of fraudulent operators and that they have got to be broken up. That was my view way back and I introduced legislation to do that. Now Secretary Clinton was busy giving speeches to Goldman Sachs for $225,000 a speech.
CLINTON: He cannot come up with any example because there is no example. It's always important. It may be inconvenient, but it is always important to get the facts straight. I stood up against the behaviors of the banks when I was a senator. I called them out on their mortgage behavior.
SANDERS: Secretary Clinton called them out. Oh, my goodness. They must have been really crushed by this. And was that before or after you received huge sums of money by giving speaking engagements?
BERMAN: Speeches for which Hillary Clinton still says she will not release the transcripts.
CLINTON: Let's set the same standard for everybody, when everybody does it, OK, I will do it.
BERMAN: The Brooklyn brawl ran so hot at times, the fighters needed to be separated by the ref.
SANDERS: I am sure a lot of people are very surprised to learn that you supported raising the minimum wage to 15 bucks an hour.
CLINTON: You know, wait a minute -- wait a minute.
SANDERS: That's just not accurate. CLINTON: Wait, wait. Come on. I have stood on the debate stage with
Senator Sanders eight prior times. I have said the exact same thing.
(CROSSTALK)
SANDERS: Wolf, can I -- excuse me, Wolf.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN MODERATOR: Secretary, Senator, please.
CLINTON: If we can raise it to $15 in New York --
BLITZER: Secretary -- the viewers.
CLINTON: In Los Angeles, in Seattle, let's do it.
BLITZER: If you're both screaming at each other, the viewers won't be able to hear either of you.
CLINTON: I have said from the very beginning that I supported the fight for $15. I supported those on the frontlines of the fight -- it happens to be true.
SANDERS: Well, I think the secretary has confused a lot of people. I don't know how you're there for the fight for $15 when you say you wanted $12 an hour national minimum wage.
BERMAN: Then there were decisions about contrition. Clinton offering an apology of sorts for the 1994 crime bill her husband signed into law.
CLINTON: I'm sorry for the consequences that were unintended and that have had a very unfortunate impact on people's lives.
BERMAN: But Sanders, when pushed with no apology for his positions on gun control.
SANDERS: I don't believe it is appropriate that a gun shop owner who just sold a legal weapon to be held accountable and be sued.
BERMAN: Including no apology to families of victims of Sandy Hook who have criticized his opposition to some lawsuits against some gun sellers.
SANDERS: No, I don't think I owe them the apology. They have the right to sue. And I support them and anyone else who wants the right to sue.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BERMAN: You know, this was also loudest debate yet. Both literally and figuratively. The candidates were loud, the crowd very loud, and the contrast themselves, you know, loud and sharp contrast on the issues and also on styles and goals with Bernie Sanders talking about dreams and Hillary Clinton really talking about doing.
[09:05:13] COSTELLO: I think that New York audience helped, too. Right? It was very loud and raucous.
BERMAN: Yes.
COSTELLO: And that drove the decibel level up on stage, too.
BERMAN: Indeed. Indeed.
COSTELLO: John Berman, thanks so much.
Perhaps the "Daily Beast" had the headline of the morning. Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton turn up the volume to 11 in Brooklyn. Wolf tried but the volume knob was up all night long. What a difference from past debates.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANDERS: I think the secretary is right. And that is that the American people are sick and tired of hearing about your damn e-mails.
CLINTON: Thank you. Me, too. Me, too. You know, wait a minute. Wait a minute.
SANDERS: That's just not accurate.
CLINTON: Wait. Come on. I have stood on the debate stage with Senator Sanders eight prior times.
SANDERS: Excuse me.
CLINTON: I have said the exact same thing.
SANDERS: Wolf.
BLITZER: Secretary, Senator, please --
CLINTON: If we can raise it to $15 in New York or Los Angeles or Seattle --
BLITZER: Secretary, the viewers --
CLINTON: Let's do it.
BLITZER: If you're both screaming at each other the viewers won't be able to hear either of you. So please don't talk over each other.
SANDERS: I was pleased --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSTELLO: So you get the idea there. Perhaps a tweet from former Obama adviser Dan Pfeiffer said it best. Quote, "Bernie Sanders is annoyed he is losing this campaign. Hillary Clinton is annoyed she hasn't lost yet."
Let's bring in our panel to talk about this and more, Peter Beinart is a CNN political commentator and contributor for the "Atlantic." Ben Wikler is a Bernie Sanders surrogate and the Washington director of Moveon.org and Kristina Schake is the deputy communications director for Hillary for America.
Welcome to all of you.
PETER BEINART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Thank you.
BEN WIKLER, BERNIE SUPPORTER/SURROGATE: Thanks so much.
COSTELLO: Thanks for being here. Ben, I'll start with you because this is what former Congressman John Dingell of Michigan tweeted out last night, quote, "Old guy who yells is sick of listening to old guy who yells a lot," end quote. And you can see John Dingell's up there, too.
So looking back, Ben, was Sanders, who needs to broaden his base, too sarcastic?
WIKLER: You know, I don't think anyone is going to accuse him of not having enough passion or not having enough intensity for the issues that he believes in last night. I think the question is whether people agree with believe in the vision that intensity is all about. And from my perspective, if you define the debate you win the debate. That's what happened on the minimum wage, that's what happened on expanding Social Security, breaking up the big banks. Brooklyn became Bernie's battlefield and I think he won the battle.
COSTELLO: Interesting. So, Christina, I'm sure you'll disagree with Ben but I'll ask that same question of your candidate. Hillary Clinton laughs a lot when Sanders attacks her. What happened to the classy Democratic Party?
KRISTINA SCHAKE, DEPUTY COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, HILLARY FOR AMERICA: Well, you know, this is New York. This is the rough and tumble primary of New York. And Hillary was very proud to serve in New York as a senator for eight years. She knows New York politics. That you had a really loud, boisterous crowd last night. It was really engaged so that at one point Hillary yelled, I love Brooklyn. She's used to this kind of politics. She enjoys campaigning in New York, because, you know, in New York, people are just not interested in rhetoric.
They want to know your track record and they want to know that you have real plans to make a difference in their lives, and I think we saw as we came into New York that Senator Sanders has a very, very disastrous meeting with the "New York Daily News" where he really wasn't able to explain his plans going forward. And you know, New Yorkers demand more than that and we saw last night that Hillary was able to continue to lay out the plans that she has to really make a difference about the issues people are concerned about today.
COSTELLO: OK.
SCHAKE: And she really enjoys debating and she enjoyed it last night.
COSTELLO: OK. So we'll get into the issues just after this next question to Peter because I hate to say it, Peter, but nasty does get attention. Nice, not so much. So maybe the new Democratic nasty Party fest is weirdly good for the party.
BEINART: Well, to be fair, it was pretty substantive. I mean, it was hot but it was substantive, and, you know, it was not like you saw some of the Republican debates which were really simply ad hominem insults. And it was a pretty substantive debate and I think what's interesting is that you have two different visions where the Democratic Party should go. Bernie Sanders is essentially laying out a more radical shift with not only the Clinton but also the Obama administration in moving the Democratic Party to more like a kind of European social democratic-style party, higher taxation, and regulation.
And Hillary Clinton, although she's moved to the left, still has some of the DNA of her husband's 1990s -- you know, policies in her both on domestic and in foreign policy. I thought it was actually quite a useful debate in laying those division.
COSTELLO: Interesting. So, Kristina, one thing that did come out, you know, that Bernie Sanders attacked Hillary Clinton over not releasing her transcripts of those speeches she gave to Goldman Sachs. She came back with OK. Why don't you release your tax return? And Bernie Sanders says, sure. I'll release it today. So did that backfire on Clinton?
SCHAKE: No, I don't think so. You know, it's really interesting I think is that whenever Senator Sanders leaves us a policy debate like he did on Wall Street he attacks her personally. And so as we saw as this campaign went on is editorial boards around this country and independent analysts, and economists like Paul Krugman really looked at both of these candidates' Wall Street plans of how to hold it accountable.
[09:15:12] They deemed that Hillary had the toughest most comprehensive plan. And so once that happened and he kind of lost the policy debate on that he attacked her personally by saying she had to release her transcripts, implying that she was somehow beholden to the industry, which is absolutely not true. Last night when he was asked to give a single example of that being the case he couldn't name one.
And so I think then he turned around and started attacking her personally on transcripts, and she said I want to be held to the same standard as everyone else, and actually there is a basic standard of transparency in presidential races that candidates release their taxes and Senator Sanders hadn't done that. Hillary has actually released her taxes for every year since 1977 and the last eight years are on her Web site. So I think she is pointing out an important --
COSTELLO: Well, Senator Sanders said that he would release his taxes at some point today. So we're eagerly awaiting them.
SCHAKE: Yes.
COSTELLO: Ben, I'll ask you this question and Kristina brings up a good point. When Bernie Sanders was asked directly by Dana Bash to illustrate one example of how Hillary Clinton supported any piece of legislation that supported big business or the big banks, he couldn't come up with one. You'd think he'd have that in his back pocket ready to go?
WIKLER: You know, I think he actually -- this is one area where he didn't quite go far enough at explaining the contrast he was drawing. What he was saying, if you listened to him, he said, after the financial crisis I supported breaking up the big banks and Secretary Clinton was giving paid speeches. And what he meant was, she wasn't supporting breaking up the big banks. That was the acid test moment.
When the crisis happens, do you support breaking up the giant banks that helped take down the financial system or not? And that's the moment that Secretary Clinton did not come out in favor of doing that. I think that's the contrast he was drawing. Now there's lots of other issues where Secretary Clinton and Sanders had differed on financial regulation, like the bankruptcy bill, for example, that protected the rights of Wall Street banks to strip the assets of people who are declaring bankruptcy but I think he was really trying to focus on the central question whether the banks were too big to fail then, whether they're too big to fail now, whether they should be broken up.
COSTELLO: OK. And Peter, so I'll ask you this question as the neutral party here. So did Bernie Sanders outline a plan to break up the big banks? Because that was the big rub about his "Daily News" interview. Right? He couldn't -- he couldn't articulate how to go about doing that. Did he do that last night?
BEINART: No. I don't think Bernie Sanders has answered that question well enough, and I think it's in some ways in keeping with the kind of candidate he is. He is more of an aspirational candidate in terms of laying out big themes for a different kind of vision of where America wants to be. I think that's actually very valuable. There's a lot of value in that. I think he's shifting the debate inside the Democratic Party, but when you get into the substance, the kind of more wonky detail, that's where I think he's weaker, both on domestic and foreign policy, and that's where Hillary Clinton who I think is less inspiring when speaking in broad strokes tends to be stronger.
COSTELLO: OK. I have to leave it there. Peter Beinart, Ben Wikler, and Kristina Schake, thanks to all of you.
And by the way, Bernie Sanders is on his way to Vatican City. We're going to have a live report out of Rome in just about 15 minutes.
Still to come in the NEWSROOM, Donald Trump never one to hold back, but is he sounding more presidential? Is it on purpose? Does he need to? We'll talk about that, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[09:17:31] COSTELLO: Donald Trump poised to steal the spotlight from the Democrats this morning. "The New York Post" endorsing the real estate mogul calling him, quote, "an imperfect merger carrying a vital message." The paper also says the Republican nominee, as the Republican nominee, Trump will need to soften his tone, become more presidential.
In today's "Wall Street Journal", Trump may look to broaden appeal with voters blasting the political elite. He writes in part, quote, "Let me ask America a question. How has the system been working out for you and your family? I, for one, am not interested in defending a system that has for decades served interests of political parties at the expense of the people."
CNN's Phil Mattingly joins me now with more on that.
Good morning.
PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Carol.
There's been a lot of question amongst party officials how far is Donald Trump going to take his fight as it relates to Donald Trump's campaign? First, the Republican National Committee setting rules on these delegates. This was a broad side in the "Wall Street Journal" this morning escalating this fight to a level we haven't seen before and that raises two major potential problems for the campaign.
First and foremost, should we get to an open convention in Cleveland? A lot of the delegates that Donald Trump is criticizing now will need on his side in a second or third ballot. But the bigger issue perhaps is this. The Republican National Committee has a lot of data infrastructure and donor infrastructure that Donald Trump will need in a general election. That has a lot of their officials scratching their heads.
Still, when you talk about what the Trump campaign wants to do, what their plans are, Corey Lewandowski put it simply this morning on "NEW DAY."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COREY LEWANDOWSKI, CAMPAIGN MANAGER FOR DONALD TRUMP: Come the day of the convention, Donald Trump's going to have more than the 1,237 delegates required. He's going to win on the first ballot.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTINGLY: On the first ballot. That means not an open convention and the reason they're saying this is, really this, Carol. They have a pathway for it obviously, starting here in New York and going straight through. But they need to win a lot, and they know if they don't win a lot, and they get to that second or third ballot, they are in big trouble, Carol.
COSTELLO: All right. Phil Mattingly reporting live for us -- thanks so much.
Joining me now to talk about the Republican side of things this morning, Larry Sabato. He's the director at University of Virginia Center for Politics.
Welcome, Larry.
LARRY SABATO, UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA CENTER FOR POLITICS DIRECTOR: Good morning, Carol. COSTELLO: Good morning.
So, Trump says he can appear presidential, that he can pivot at a moment's notice and appears he's trying do to that right now. The moment has arrived. Can he do that?
SABATO: Well, can you do it at certain moments. You know. The problems are twofold. First, to appear presidential you actually have to be presidential.
[09:20:03] There have to be characteristics in you that emanate and convince people on their own that you're presidential.
The second problem, Carol, is, there's this little thing you're familiar with called videotape. It lives forever. And Donald Trump has created lots of bits of videotape that I think most people whatever their political inclinations would appear not presidential.
COSTELLO: I'm laughing because you said videotape. It's digital now, Larry.
SABATO: I'm sorry. You know, I'm old. I'm a couple decades behind, you know?
COSTELLO: So am I. Thought I'd jab you a little.
So, Donald Trump is trying, and I'm going to give viewers examples of that. For example, he did not comment on Michelle Fields after Corey Lewandowski was cleared of assault charges, right? He met with Megyn Kelly one on one this weekend, maybe it was truce. I don't know. That's what "The New York Post" called that in its cover story. He's hired these new establishment advisers, even as he rails against the GOP machine.
So, is all of that enough, to Trump what's on videotape?
SABATO: I doubt it. You know, he can spin it that way.
Also, truces are broken, Carol. You know, looking at the last six months or so, I'll be surprised if -- if Trump's truces with, whether it's Megyn Kelly or any groups of individuals actually lasts.
COSTELLO: OK. So I want to touch on Ted Cruz just a minute, because he did not get a great reception at the new state GOP gala last night, but a better reception on the Jimmy Fallon show which also boasts a New York audience. Here's a clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIMMY FALLON, COMEDIAN: And people are still mad. They're mad at you for saying they have "New York values." What did you mean by that?
SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Look, Donald, I'm not going to pander to New Yorkers. I love New York City. It is the greatest city in the world with the best-looking audiences in the entire world. (APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSTELLO: OK. See? So, he's trying to become more likable. He's showing that he can be funny but still has this big likability problem and it's costing him. In a FOX national poll, Cruz loses to Trump 45 percent to 27 percent. Red State is suggesting more appearances on comedy shows like the Jimmy Fallon show.
So, will that help Ted Cruz?
SABATO: Look, humor is a good weapon for candidates, and it's surprisingly little utilized. I'm always surprised candidate don't use humor more to neutralize some of the negative itty. By the way, Cruz people close to him tell me he has a good sense of humor that shows up privately quite a bit.
The problem it's an angry year especially on the Republican side. So, it's hard to be humorous and angry simultaneously, though maybe he can pull it off.
COSTELLO: You never know. So here's a question. If Trump becomes more presidential, and Cruz, you know, doesn't become more likable, what happens to John Kasich?
SABATO: Well, he could try to be I guess. Sounds like a variety show, in the works there. You know, they could all have segments and be themselves, maybe.
Look, you know, we tend to think these things matter a lot. I tend to think that the -- the pudding is set, and it's just going to have to be eaten in time for the Republican convention, and will be. Whether one of these candidates can actually get 1,237 on the first ballot is the only question that matters.
COSTELLO: All right. Larry Sabato thanks for being with me this morning.
Donald Trump -- you're welcome.
Donald Trump's bid to be more presidential may hit a hurdle later this morning, thanks to six former contestants from his hit show "The Apprentice." These are live pictures from New York where the group, including the winner of the show's fourth season will denounce what she say is Trump's campaign of, quote, "sexism xenophobia, racism, violence and hate." Trump hitting back hard against the six, calling them, in his words, failing wannabes, who just want to get back into the spotlight. We'll keep you posted.
Still to come in the NEWSROOM: Bernie Sanders taking a break from the campaign in New York, scheduled to speak today in Vatican City hoping for a live visit with Pope Francis.
We'll have a live report, next. And coming up this afternoon, Wolf Blitzer talking to the heads of the national Republican and Democratic committees, at 1:00 p.m. Eastern here on CNN.
I'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[09:29:00] COSTELLO: And good morning. I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me.
Senator Sanders is scheduled to take the stage in Vatican City in just a few moments. The Jewish Democratic presidential contender is visiting the heart of the Catholic Church to deliver a speech on morality and the economy. Just four days away from the crucial New York primaries -- that's what I was trying to say -- some people are actually wondering why.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIMMY KIMMEL, COMEDIAN: You know, there's a big primary in New York on Tuesday. Bernie is headed to the Vatican tomorrow to make a speech. Going all the way to the Vatican to make a 15-minute speech and the pope isn't even going to be there. Why he's doing this, even people running his campaign don't know. Maybe he want to get in good with God since they'll probably be meeting soon, but --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSTELLO: Oh. That was just awful. That was rough.
Ben Wedeman joins us live from Vatican City.
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Senator Sanders has arrived in Rome and he's going directly from the airport to the Vatican City, where at the top of the hour, he has exactly 10 minutes to present his topic. His topic is the urgency of a moral economy.
Now, this is part of a conference that's focusing on the changes in the global economy.
